Language, Culture, and Other Issues

[whynotme]

You know, some people called me a troll here.

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[Boethius]

Ukrainian nationalists were not behind Babi Yar.  It was perpetrated by the Nazis.  They were the ones who put up notices for Jews to gather their belongings and report.  They are the ones who shot the Jews at Babi Yar.  Read a history book if you don't believe me.  Or, read  Anatoli Kuznetsov's book.  He was witness to much of this.

How Soviets, or you, for that matter, define language and terms is irrelevant.  Languages use certain words in certain ways.  Ukrainians have reclaimed their language.  You don't get to define it because of your lack of fluency in the relevant language.  And no, in Russian and Ukrainian, the term is not the same.

Tyahnybok was not a Maidan leader.  The Bolsheviks did not come to power through the electoral process, so the comparison is flawed.  Their influence is so great they not only lost over 80% of the seats they held in the Rada (seats they had only won as a protest vote against Yanukovych), they also lost every position in Ukraine's cabinet.  In what country does this equate to "power"?

[papakota]

Ukrainian nationalists were not behind Babi Yar.  It was perpetrated by the Nazis.  They were the ones who put up notices for Jews to gather their belongings and report.  They are the ones who shot the Jews at Babi Yar.  Read a history book if you don't believe me.  Or, read  Anatoli Kuznetsov's book.  He was witness to much of this.

How Soviets, or you, for that matter, define language and terms is irrelevant.  Languages use certain words in certain ways.  Ukrainians have reclaimed their language.  You don't get to define it because of your lack of fluency in the relevant language.  And no, in Russian and Ukrainian, the term is not the same.

Tyahnybok was not a Maidan leader.  The Bolsheviks did not come to power through the electoral process, so the comparison is flawed.  Their influence is so great they not only lost over 80% of the seats they held in the Rada (seats they had only won as a protest vote against Yanukovych), they also lost every position in Ukraine's cabinet.  In what country does this equate to "power"?

I actually read that book in Russian a few years ago. I also visited Babiy Yar personally when I was in Kiev in 2013. In that book, he says that though in the beginning Ukrainians in Kiev had been happy to see Germans end a Soviet regime, but pretty soon Ukrainians changed their mind and started to miss Stalin. 'cos for Ukrainians in Kiev to live EVEN under Stalin was much, much, much better than to live under Nazis. Just to put things in proportion, 'cos you guys try to claim that Soviet regime and Nazi regime are the same. Now you'll start teaching me Russian? Why not? As someone who grew up in USSR, I should take Russian lessons from New Zealanders and Americans. And it's not true that only the Germans were behind Babiy Yar. They were helped by Ukrainian "police" brought from Western Ukraine. That's exactly what's written in that book you've mentioned. Great book.

Language is a social tool. What counts is what actually happens in a society that uses that language and not somewhere across the globe. I don't define anything. Soviets are gone a quarter century ago. God knows why you even mentioned them. I'm talking about current linguistic norms in both Ukraine and Russia. People put a very negative connotation in a word "zhid". That's why usually and especially officially in both Russia and Ukraine you see a word "evrey". How can it be different in Russian, if a word "zhid" was used in classic Russian literature?
"Zhid" for some reason became a kind of ethnic slur. Exactly as a word "khokhol" in Russian. I know that in Eastern Europe a word "zhid" doesn't hold anything negative. But it's different in former USSR.

No need to misrepresent the facts about Euromaidan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
Lead figures:
Oleh Tyahnybok

Nothing is flawed. Ukraine's opposition under Yanukovitch also came to power not through electoral process. How is that different from Bolshevik revolution in Russia? Nothing prevents Svoboda, Azov, Right Sector etc. to come to power without elections. I'm not saying that it will happen. But theoretically, it's possible.

[Boethius]

I actually read that book in Russian a few years ago. I also visited Babiy Yar personally when I was in Kiev in 2013. In that book, he says that though in the beginning Ukrainians in Kiev had been happy to see Germans end a Soviet regime, but pretty soon Ukrainians changed their mind and started to miss Stalin. 'cos for Ukrainians in Kiev to live EVEN under Stalin was much, much, much better than to live under Nazis. Just to put things in proportion, 'cos you guys try to claim that Soviet regime and Nazi regime are the same. Now you'll start teaching me Russian? Why not? As someone who grew up in USSR, I should take Russian lessons from New Zealanders and Americans. And it's not true that only the Germans were behind Babiy Yar. They were helped by Ukrainian "police" brought from Western Ukraine. That's exactly what's written in that book you've mentioned. Great book.

I have known well over a hundred people who lived under both the Soviets and the Nazis.  They all, to the last one, say there was zero difference.

The people I know who lived in occupied Kyiv told me that if you were not a communist or Jewish, or if you weren't chosen as an Ostarbeiter, the Germans generally left you alone.

Language is a social tool. What counts is what actually happens in a society that uses that language and not somewhere across the globe. I don't define anything. Soviets are gone a quarter century ago. God knows why you even mentioned them. I'm talking about current linguistic norms in both Ukraine and Russia. People put a very negative connotation in a word "zhid". That's why usually and especially officially in both Russia and Ukraine you see a word "evrey". How can it be different in Russian, if a word "zhid" was used in classic Russian literature?
"Zhid" for some reason became a kind of ethnic slur. Exactly as a word "khokhol" in Russian. I know that in Eastern Europe a word "zhid" doesn't hold anything negative. But it's different in former USSR.

Nope.  Russian speakers put a negative connotation to the word.  Ukrainians do not, and more particularly, not Western Ukrainians. 

As a Russian speaker, you are imposing your understanding of the word.  I am not.  Just as, if I were to say the word "dzegarok" or "gudzik" or "faino", a Western Ukrainian would understand immediately what I was saying.  If I used the words "yushka" or "kishenya", anyone who speaks Ukrainian would understand me.  Russians, not so much.

You fail to recognize that Ukrainian is a different language, and cultural contexts are irrelevant because Western Ukraine always kept its traditions.  Even as a teen when I was there, I heard nationalist songs being sung.  Not openly, but certainly within families, and even the Soviet born kids knew those songs.  Why do you think most of those Ukrainians returned to the banned Greek Catholic Church on the collapse of the USSR?  They remembered their language and their traditions throughout their near half century of Soviet occupation.

No need to misrepresent the facts about Euromaidan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
Lead figures:
Oleh Tyahnybok

I don't rely on wikipedia as an authoritative source.

The leaders of Euromaidan were student activists, not politicians.  The politicians, all Johnny Come Latelys, attempted to broker a truce, and Tyahnybok was part of that group of politicians.  So was Tymoshenko.  Where is her influence today?

Nothing is flawed. Ukraine's opposition under Yanukovitch also came to power not through electoral process. How is that different from Bolshevik revolution in Russia? Nothing prevents Svoboda, Azov, Right Sector etc. to come to power without elections. I'm not saying that it will happen. But theoretically, it's possible.

Yes, and Yanukovych was in the process of being impeached in accordance with Ukrainian constitutional law, per a vote in the Rada.  Presidents do get impeached, even in democracies.

Anything is theoretically possible, but I believe there is more of a chance of this in Russia, because of its authoritarian government and control of media, than in Ukraine.

[papakota]

That's not what Kuznetsov says in his book that YOU presented here as a reliable source of information. So you contradict yourself.
Not only that... It's a matter of pure statistics. Only about 30 000 Jews were killed in Babiy Yar. And it's a small fraction of a total victims. An average estimate I think is around 100 000. Most people killed there weren't Jews. Jews just happened to be the first victims and also Nazis killed them faster. It's clear that in occupied Kiev nobody revealed their Communist past. Famous Communists probably ran away before the occupation. Of course, in some cases Nazis could find out this way or another about someone, but we can disregard those rare occasions. And you said that everybody else felt safe. Then who were most of the victims in Babiy Yar? People who fell from Mars or something? Even if Ukrainians didn't pull the triggers, they were helping Germans to organize the massacre.

You call it a Soviet occupation. Very interesting occupation. Ukraine got Crimea as a gift from Moscow. Brezhnev was from Ukraine. USSR built all the industry in Eastern Ukraine. Soviets even hid facts about Khatyn from general public in USSR about Ukrainians being the ones who did it.

Interestingly enough, I get some moral support from Americans in PM. People are conformists and they try not to piss against the wind.
But I agree that it's getting boring. We talk in circles in this thread. 

Maybe in some places in Western Ukraine it's different. But overall in Ukraine it is as I said. Including in Kiev, where most people speak Russian anyway. Give me a link to a mainstream Ukrainian TV program where they use a word "zhid" as opposed to "evrey". Otherwise, it's just your fantasy. Maybe your mom in Western Ukraine 100 years ago learned the word the way you say it, but I'm talking about late Soviet and Post Soviet times, i.e., my time. Even one Ukrainian nationalist, an old man on Shuster LIVE who is a witness of Holodomor, he was complaining that Ukrainians would go to Israel to work as nannies and he used a word "evrei". He's antisemitic, so of course he wanted to use the other word, but he didn't dare. Ukrainian nationalists are only brave against the civilians. Especially Poles and Jews. When they confront Russian soldiers, the nationalists run away. One battle of "Halychyna" near Brody against Red Army and what's left of it? Watch him talking at 3:28:57. It's just before the end of that talk show.

[Boethius]

That's not what Kuznetsov says in his book that YOU presented here as a reliable source of information. So you contradict yourself.

Actually, yes, it is.  He witnesses Einsatzgruppen killing Jews.  As I recall, local auxiliary police (collaborators) led the Jews to the ravine, where they and German troops executed the Jews.  No UPA members present.

I'm not going to download his book.  However, the excerpt below was written by Holocaust scholars.

Babi Yar is a ravine on the outskirts of Kiev where Einsatzgruppen mobile squads killed at least 34,000 Jews over a one week period in September 1941. Russian estimates put the number of killed at nearly 100,000. Today, Babi Yar has come to symbolize the horrific murder of Jews by the Einsatzgruppen as well as the persistent failure of the world to acknowledge this Jewish tragedy. . .

Historian Abram Sachar provides a description of the extermination at Babi Yar:  Nearly 34,000 Jews of the ghetto were brought to a suburban ravine known as Babi Yar, near the Jewish Cemetery, where men, women, and children were systematically machine-gunned in a two-day orgy of execution. In subsequent months, most of the remaining population was exterminated ...

... The Jews in their thousands, with such pathetic belongings as they could carry, were herded into barbed-wire areas at the top of the ravine, guarded by Ukrainian collaborators. There they were stripped of their clothes and beaten, then led in irregular squads down the side of the ravine. The first groups were forced to lie on the ground, face down, and were machine-gunned by the Germans who kept up a steady volley.

The riddled bodies were covered with thin layers of earth and the next groups were ordered to lie over them, to be similarly dispatched. To carry out the murder of 34,000 human beings in the space of two days could not assure that all the victims had died. Hence there were a few who survived and, though badly wounded, managed to crawl from under the corpses and seek a hiding place.  In August 1943, with the Red Army advancing, the Nazis dug up the bodies from the mass graves of Babi Yar and burned them in an attempt to remove the evidence of mass murder. Paul Blobel, the commander of Sonderkommando4a, whose troops had slaughtered the Jews of Kiev, returned to Babi Yar. For more then a month, his men and workers conscripted from the ranks of concentration camp inmates dug up the bodies. Bulldozers were required to reopen the mounds. Massive bone-crushing machinery was brought to the scene. The bodies were piled on wooden logs, doused with gas, and ignited.
When the work was done, the workers from the concentration camp were killed. Under cover of darkness on September 29, 1943, 25 of them escaped. Fifteen survived to tell what they had seen.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/babiyar.html

You claimed UPA was involved in massacres at Babi Yar.  I stated no, they were not.  I have never denied that collaborators were involved at Babi Yar.  Incidentally, not all those collaborators were Ukrainians.  Many were.  I'd hazard a guess most were.  But, some were ethnic Russians.  Some were Jewish.  Some were Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.  Collaboration occurred across the board, but at fairly low numbers, percentage wise, as I stated previously.  The auxiliary policeman in my husband's Grandmother's district in Ukraine was a Latvian from Kyiv.  After the war, he served two years in prison and was then hired as a policeman by the Soviets because of his "substantial experience". 

Yes, it's true Babi Yar had more than just Jewish victims. It is also true there were collaborators.  However, UPA never made it as far as Kyiv (though their political arm, OUN, did, and 621 members of OUN were rounded up and executed at Babi Yar by the Germans), so, your statement that they were involved in the mass execution of Jews at Babi Yar is not true.

Almost all the communists in Kyiv had fled before the Germans reached Kyiv.  One side of my husband's family lived in Kyiv throughout the occupation, the other side fled beyond the Urals.  Others within the family were in the Red Army.  My husband's Grandfather, aunts and uncles were taken to Germany as Ostarbeiter.  His parent was too young.  His Grandmother was a witness to the gathering of the Jews, and no, the local population did not know what was going to happen, including those Jews.  Locals were also confined to their homes when the shooting occurred.

You call it a Soviet occupation. Very interesting occupation. Ukraine got Crimea as a gift from Moscow. Brezhnev was from Ukraine. USSR built all the industry in Eastern Ukraine. Soviets even hid facts about Khatyn from general public in USSR about Ukrainians being the ones who did it.

So what?  Brezhnev was an ethnic Russian, but that is beside the point.  He was a Bolshevik.  Western Ukraine was part of Poland and did not join the USSR willingly.  It was ruled, administratively and de facto, from Moscow right to the collapse of the USSR.  Every university, every administrative position in Western Ukraine was riddled with ethnic Russians moved there because the locals were viewed as not ideologically ready for communism.  So, yes, it was a takeover, an occupation, and if you go back to my post,  you will note I was referring to the division of Poland under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty.

Eastern Ukraine was no better under the Soviets, although it did have a nascent communist party.  The Bolsheviks adored the locals so much they starved to death over 4 million of them (and I include Ukrainian Bolsheviks in this statement).  The rocket industry in Dnepropetrovsk was not fully developed there, components were assembled, but most of the plans were developed and retained in Moscow. 

Interestingly enough, I get some moral support from Americans in PM. People are conformists and they try not to piss against the wind.

So from a bunch of cowards who are are too afraid to post their own views on the thread.  Many are also misogynists.  So, I wouldn't be too impressed with the support of eunuchs.

Maybe in some places in Western Ukraine it's different. But overall in Ukraine it is as I said.
Including in Kiev, where most people speak Russian anyway.

I don't recall posting that people don't speak Russian.  My point was just that Russian has legal protection under Ukraine's constitution, and therefore, there is no need for it to be a state language in Ukraine.  There was a need to make Ukrainian the state language, so that Ukrainians would again start speaking Ukrainian.

Give me a link to a mainstream Ukrainian TV program where they use a word "zhid" as opposed to "evrey". Otherwise, it's just your fantasy.

I am not going to start trolling youtube.  All I am saying is that the meanings are different.

Maybe your mom in Western Ukraine 100 years ago learned the word the way you say it, but I'm talking about late Soviet and Post Soviet times, i.e., my time

a)  My mother was not born in Ukraine;
b)  My mother is not yet close to 100 years old.


Since you  have linked wikipedia, I will as well -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhydovka


And here is a forum for people interested in lingusitics, with a discussion of the word -


http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/words-for-jew-etymology.219427/

Even one Ukrainian nationalist, an old man on Shuster LIVE who is a witness of Holodomor, he was complaining that Ukrainians would go to Israel to work as nannies and he used a word "evrei". He's antisemitic, so of course he wanted to use the other word, but he didn't dare.

Oh, well that's your proof right there!  LOL.


ShusterLive is more often than not, conducted in Russian, not Ukrainian.  The word has a negative connotation in Russian.


The use of the word "zhid" by Ukrainians is to reclaim the Ukrainian language.  Nothing more.  It is not intended as a pejorative.

Ukrainian nationalists are only brave against the civilians. Especially Poles and Jews. When they confront Russian soldiers, the nationalists run away. One battle of "Halychyna" near Brody against Red Army and what's left of it? Watch him talking at 3:28:57. It's just before the end of that talk show.

That must be why the Red Army was fighting UPA on Ukrainian soil until the 1950's.

[Boethius]

The document referred to in the link below has been verified as accurate by Western scholars.


http://www.unian.info/society/94483-sbu-declassifies-documents-proving-oun-upa-not-connected-with-anti-jewish-actions.html


As I posted, UPA was not actively anti Semitic.  In fact, its political arm, OUN, had explicitly denounced anti Semitism, even before the war.  Jews were never their target.  But they were involved in pogroms in Western Ukraine, when their participation was demanded by the Germans.  UPA was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews, not in the German organized slaughters, but in pogroms, mostly in cities.

[krimster2]

papakota/Chivo,
   I have actually been to Babi Yar.  It’s quite accessible from Kyiv, and is at the intersection of two major highways.  Why was I there?  Sadly, I have family there. I collected a lot of information about what happened at Babi Yar.  I have a folder full, so I can say with certainty that Ukrainian nationalists had nothing whatsoever to do with Babi Yar, in fact there are some buried there along with people from every other Ukrainian group not bearing the Nazi seal of approval.  The decision to kill Kyiv’s Jews (and others) was made by SS Brigadeführer Kurt Eberhard, it was an SS operation with many supporting sub groups but mainly executed by Sonderkommando 4a of Einsatzgruppe C, under command of the infamous Paul Blobel.  If you have any decency whatsoever to the memory of the people buried there, please do not misrepresent who bears the responsibility for this with your revisionism, to me what you are saying is the equivalent of someone telling me the holocaust never happened.

  When I lived in Ukraine, almost everyone I met spoke Russian, the Russian language was never in danger of being repealed, this would be impossible to do.  This possibility was never real, but was merely the deceptive “cause” to give Russian legitimacy for the invasion, accusing the “Junta” of being fascist.  I remember on Maidan, right after Jerkokovich fled, there was a spontaneous parade of all the foreigners who lived in Kyiv, they came out in groups carrying their home country’s flags and marched in a long column around Maidan to the cheers of local Kyiv residents.  Tell me Chivo, if I marched around Moscow with an American flag, or even a Ukrainian one, how long would it be before I was either arrested or attacked by “patriots”, see the difference?

[papakota]

papakota/Chivo,
   I have actually been to Babi Yar.  It’s quite accessible from Kyiv, and is at the intersection of two major highways.  Why was I there?  Sadly, I have family there. I collected a lot of information about what happened at Babi Yar.  I have a folder full, so I can say with certainty that Ukrainian nationalists had nothing whatsoever to do with Babi Yar, in fact there are some buried there along with people from every other Ukrainian group not bearing the Nazi seal of approval.  The decision to kill Kyiv’s Jews (and others) was made by SS Brigadeführer Kurt Eberhard, it was an SS operation with many supporting sub groups but mainly executed by Sonderkommando 4a of Einsatzgruppe C, under command of the infamous Paul Blobel.  If you have any decency whatsoever to the memory of the people buried there, please do not misrepresent who bears the responsibility for this with your revisionism, to me what you are saying is the equivalent of someone telling me the holocaust never happened.

  When I lived in Ukraine, almost everyone I met spoke Russian, the Russian language was never in danger of being repealed, this would be impossible to do.  This possibility was never real, but was merely the deceptive “cause” to give Russian legitimacy for the invasion, accusing the “Junta” of being fascist.  I remember on Maidan, right after Jerkokovich fled, there was a spontaneous parade of all the foreigners who lived in Kyiv, they came out in groups carrying their home country’s flags and marched in a long column around Maidan to the cheers of local Kyiv residents.  Tell me Chivo, if I marched around Moscow with an American flag, or even a Ukrainian one, how long would it be before I was either arrested or attacked by “patriots”, see the difference?

I never said that Russian was in danger. I just said that in a country like Ukraine it must be a second official language. Same as in Belarus. Anything else is a discrimination. And it has nothing to do with Maidan and Crimea. God knows why Russian speaking Ukrainians had to tolerate that kind of situation for about 20 years. I wouldn't. And the current conflict in Ukraine is just the end result. It has nothing to do with Putin. It's a fault of short sighted Kiev politicians. Again, I don't support Putin and it has nothing to do with him. It was an internal Ukrainian issue. Let's say if I were to become a Ukrainian citizen. Why then I would have to speak a foreign language in MY OWN COUNTRY as official? Please explain. Austrians speak GERMAN, even though the name of the country is not Germany. I've already given example of Finland where 5% speak Swedish and it's still an official language. No one here commented on that. Again, I'm not Ukrainian, so it's none of my business. But that's how it looks like from afar. Russian speakers are native Ukrainians and not immigrants and I see no reason why Russian can't be an official language in Ukraine. My grandma was born in Kiev in 1918. If she were alive now and living in Kiev, then why she would be having her mother tongue as foreign? What's the problem with it? No one will die.

As per Ukrainian nationalists. I know that some of them were decent people. But others were collaborators. There's no contradiction here. Kuznetsov in his book clearly states that there were Ukrainians organizing killing of Jews in Babiy Yar. I have no reason not to believe him. Wikipedia also clearly confirms that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar
It was carried out by Sonderkommando 4a soldiers, along with the aid of the SD and SS Police Battalions backed by the local police.

The political situation in Russia is beyond the scope of this discussion. I don't praise Putinism.

[jone]

You attack the Ukrainian Nationalists as if they are perpetrators of, as you call it, not calling Russian an official language.  This clearly shows your lack of understanding of Ukrainian politics.  Even though you claim to be an expert.

First:  Demographics have changed in Ukraine.  The two areas of the country that held the greatest number of Russia loyalists, and therefore were the electors of the Yanukovych Administration were Crimea and Donbass.  Without these population centers voting, Russia centric candidates can no longer get elected.  The country went from 54/46 favoring Russia centered policies to approximately 57/43 favoring Ukrainian Nationalism.  That number is not even any longer in play as Ukrainians have polarized against Russia and my guess is a true Party of Regions type candidate would probably not get 20% of the vote in the country anymore.

Obviously, while the operation to secure Krim was a long time in the planning, the Kremlin did not fully vett the political consequences and the shift in number of Russia leaning voters.  Either that, or, as some Russian nationalists exclaimed on the forum a couple of years ago:  In six months Ukraine will be part of Russia and it won't make any difference.  I guess they were wrong. 

Second:  While Ukraine was independent before Maidan, and had multiple leaders that adhered to policy coming from Moscow, there was no dramatic political movement one way or another regarding language.  It just was.  Funny thing was that Yanukovych could not speak fluent Ukrainian, himself.  Talk about underserving your populace!  Why, if you think Russian should be a second official language of Ukraine was this not resolved by the former leaders, prior to Poroshenko and the current administration?  Oh, perhaps you just wish to throw a wrench in their governmental processes?

Third:  There are a few people who are upset with anything Russian these days in Ukraine.  That tends to happen when Russia invades Ukraine and wrests territory away using little green men.  I would venture to guess that you have never served in the armed forces and, therefore, do not know what it is like to see your friends and neighbors get killed.  The people that do the killing tend to not be liked too much. 

But, no, have at it.  By all means.  Start a campaign that Russia should be an official language of Ukraine while Russian soldiers are killing Ukrainians.  Sounds logical to me.  NOT!

Former Soviet Union Countries have taken great pains to distance themselves from the Russian oppression that they experienced while Russia controlled them.  I notice you are not championing Russian to be an official language of Estonia.  Estonian is the only official language there.  Even though Russian is predominant in Narva.  Similarly Latvian is the only official language in Latvia and Lithuanian is the singular language in Lithuania. 

These Baltic countries made a conscious effort to de-Russify their countries when they obtained their freedom.  Now, I will grant you that Ukraine is ruled by a bunch of (crooked) Oligarchs.  The Baltic countries have a much more ordered society.  But the population in Ukraine is seeking to de-Russify in the face of Russian aggression.  It is only natural.  Ultimately, if Ukraine is to operate as a country (and is not wholly occupied by Russia) it will emphasize its own history, culture and language.  Regardless of what Russia tries to impose on it.

I will say one more thing:  You called me a liar in a recent post.  In my book those are fighting words.  But my guess is that you are a little weazel of a man and if we met in person, I would look at you and you would run away and hide. 

[Boethius]

I never said that Russian was in danger. I just said that in a country like Ukraine it must be a second official language. Same as in Belarus. Anything else is a discrimination. And it has nothing to do with Maidan and Crimea. God knows why Russian speaking Ukrainians had to tolerate that kind of situation for about 20 years. I wouldn't. And the current conflict in Ukraine is just the end result. It has nothing to do with Putin. It's a fault of short sighted Kiev politicians. Again, I don't support Putin and it has nothing to do with him. It was an internal Ukrainian issue. Let's say if I were to become a Ukrainian citizen. Why then I would have to speak a foreign language in MY OWN COUNTRY as official? Please explain. Austrians speak GERMAN, even though the name of the country is not Germany. I've already given example of Finland where 5% speak Swedish and it's still an official language. No one here commented on that. Again, I'm not Ukrainian, so it's none of my business. But that's how it looks like from afar. Russian speakers are native Ukrainians and not immigrants and I see no reason why Russian can't be an official language in Ukraine. My grandma was born in Kiev in 1918. If she were alive now and living in Kiev, then why she would be having her mother tongue as foreign? What's the problem with it? No one will die.

No one is discriminating against Russians.  Russians can go to Russian schools.  They have access to Russian language media, produced both in Ukraine and elsewhere.  They can speak Russian in the streets.  The only thing they can't do is obtain official government documents in Russian, as all those documents are submitted, and produced, in Ukrainian.  Oh, those poor, poor, discriminated against Russians!

There would have been no war in Donbas without Russian interference.

Finland is irrelevant to this discussion.  However, as you raised it, Swedish is a national language because Finland was ruled by the Swedes at one time.  But, unlike the ruling Russians in Ukraine, the ruling Swedes never banned the Finnish language.  They never banned the printing of Finnish books, or Finnish education.

As per Ukrainian nationalists. I know that some of them were decent people. But others were collaborators. There's no contradiction here. Kuznetsov in his book clearly states that there were Ukrainians organizing killing of Jews in Babiy Yar. I have no reason not to believe him. Wikipedia also clearly confirms that.

So scratch a Ukrainian and underneath, you'll find a nationalist? 

No one is disputing there were Ukrainian collaborators.  There were Russian collaborators.  There were Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Polish, Belarussian, Tatar, even Jewish collaborators.  In the Donbas, communists were responsible for the killing of Soviet Jews.

What is being disputed is your assertion that the prime nationalist organization in Ukraine during WWII, OUN, was involved in the execution of Jews at Babi Yar.  If you have evidence of this, I suggest you pass it on to Holocaust scholars, as not one of them has made this assertion.

[papakota]

You know, I didn't come here to analyze history of Ukraine. I'm not competent enough and also I doubt that we will know for sure what exactly was happening. I don't know exactly who among Ukrainian nationalists was a war criminal and who wasn't. OUN, UPA, local "polizei" etc. And frankly I don't care. In my eyes Ukrainian nationalists are guilty of genocide of Poles and Jews during WWII. And I don't care if they were helping Germans or doing it on their own. Of course, it's mostly the Germans who are guilty. But Germany is not run by nationalists and doesn't glorify its actions in WWII. Ukraine is a total opposite in this regard. What is the goal of this discussion. The goal is to show that it's not "bad" Russia all of a sudden attacked "good" Ukraine. But Putin had certain reasons to do what he did. Ukraine's reputation is far from good. Germans clearly apologized and made it clear that what they did was wrong. Ukrainians glorify the collaborators. And most people in Crimea and Donbass simply refused to put up with this after Maidan. Then Putin came. That's the right chain of events. And not like some outsiders like Anotherkiwi used to tell that Ukraine was like Switzerland and then bad wolf came and stole part of Ukraine.

That old man was clearly speaking Ukrainian and not Russian. 80% of Shuster LIVE is conducted in Ukrainian.

It's a human nature to be afraid. But it surprised me why someone in the US was afraid to speak openly here.

Obviously, not all nationalists were in Halychyna. But that clearly showed the balance of power in an open battle. It was a guerrilla war in late 1940's and early 1950's. So it's different.

I still don't see a valid reason why about 50% of a population can't have their native language being official state language. What exactly is the problem with it? Why in Belarus no one complains?

Also you refuse to comment a corruption level in Ukraine. And fighting corruption was the main goal of Maidan. And I strongly disagree that Dutch voted against Ukraine just because it's poor. Romania and Bulgaria are as poor as Ukraine and for some reason Dutch didn't mind them joining the EU in 2007. So what flaw Dutch saw in Ukraine that they didn't see in Romania and Bulgaria? They just realized that Ukraine was not the country it pretended to be.

It doesn't matter what was the ethnicity of Brezhnev. Who cares that Stalin was not an ethnic Russian? I don't.
Western Ukraine is about a quarter of all Ukraine. Therefore, it doesn't represent all Ukraine.

If Bolsheviks were only against Ukraine as you claim, then in RSFSR wouldn't have been any repressions. And the opposite is true. I bet that in RSFSR more than 4 millions died. Therefore what you're saying is irrelevant here. We're not discussing Stalinism here. Bolsheviks had nothing against Ukraine. They treated it same way as other republics, if not better.

As a matter of fact I did serve in the Army. Though not in a combat unit.

I guess that much fewer people speak Russian in Baltic states than in Ukraine.

Current situation in Ukraine doesn't matter, since we discuss here pre Maidan Ukraine. If I get a Russian passport, then why would I care what happens in Ukraine and which language they speak. They can speak Vietnamese for all I care. Ukraine had failed as a state before Maidan and Putin just took advantage of the situation in 2014. Ukrainians had over 20 years of independence before Putin's actions in 2014 to build a stable and successful country free of corruption in which ALL citizens felt at home. Ukrainians in Crimea hated Ukraine all the time after 1991. At least half of people in Donbass felt about the same.

Remember, it's not me who said that one from the West shouldn't come to Ukraine to get married. It's some forum members who said that one from the West shouldn't come to Russia to get married. Therefore, it's not that I'm attacking Ukraine, but you were attacking Russia. And all I want is just to restore the balance. That's all. I think that people must know all the truth and not just part of it that suits Ukrainian nationalists and CNN.

[papakota]

No one is discriminating against Russians.  Russians can go to Russian schools.  They have access to Russian language media, produced both in Ukraine and elsewhere.  They can speak Russian in the streets.  The only thing they can't do is obtain official government documents in Russian, as all those documents are submitted, and produced, in Ukrainian.  Oh, those poor, poor, discriminated against Russians!

There would have been no war in Donbas without Russian interference.

Finland is irrelevant to this discussion.  However, as you raised it, Swedish is a national language because Finland was ruled by the Swedes at one time.  But, unlike the ruling Russians in Ukraine, the ruling Swedes never banned the Finnish language.  They never banned the printing of Finnish books, or Finnish education.

So scratch a Ukrainian and underneath, you'll find a nationalist? 

No one is disputing there were Ukrainian collaborators.  There were Russian collaborators.  There were Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Polish, Belarussian, Tatar, even Jewish collaborators.  In the Donbas, communists were responsible for the killing of Soviet Jews.

What is being disputed is your assertion that the prime nationalist organization in Ukraine during WWII, OUN, was involved in the execution of Jews at Babi Yar.  If you have evidence of this, I suggest you pass it on to Holocaust scholars, as not one of them has made this assertion.

It's a complete bs what you've said about languages in Ukraine. In a country of my citizenship, I don't speak its official language as my native one. Though I do speak their language pretty well. But when I was applying for a job, the fact that their language wasn't my native one had a very negative effect on my chances of getting hired. Let's take USA for example. You're an American employer. All other things being equal, whom would you hire, a native English speaker or someone like me? That's what I call a discrimination. Not in America, but in Ukraine. In my country of citizenship, I wasn't discriminated, 'cos my family doesn't have any roots in it. I'm just a naturalized immigrant there. And also unlike in Ukraine, in my country of citizenship there are not so many Russian speakers. As a matter of fact, me not speaking Ukrainian as my native language was one of the main reasons why I didn't want to immigrate to Ukraine.

Jews couldn't be collaborating, since Nazis planned to kill all of them. Ghetto jewish "police" is not a collaboration.
Two differences. The first one it being an internal Jewish thing and the second difference is that Jews in ghetto didn't have a choice NOT to collaborate. It's not a collaboration when you're being forced to serve the enemy. Ukrainians joined Waffen SS freely. Germans didn't force anyone to fight for them. Gentile collaborators killed the Jews, not the other way around. Don't play a fool to make it equal. As per ROA and General Vlasov, they collaborated, but in Russia they're treated as traitors. In Ukraine collaborators are local heroes. Small difference.

[Boethius]

You know, I didn't come here to analyze history of Ukraine. I'm not competent enough and also I doubt that we will know for sure what exactly was happening. I don't know exactly who among Ukrainian nationalists was a war criminal and who wasn't. OUN, UPA, local "polizei" etc. And frankly I don't care. In my eyes Ukrainian nationalists are guilty of genocide of Poles and Jews during WWII. And I don't care if they were helping Germans or doing it on their own.

You are missing the point.

1.  You claimed that Bandera, the only nationalist of the WWII period for whom monuments in today's Ukraine have been erected, killed Jews.  He most decidedly did not.  There is not one shred of evidence he knew of UPA's participation in genocides, either of Jews or Poles.

2.  You have claimed that Ukrainian nationalists were responsible for the slaughter of Jews at Babi Yar.  Historical evidence demonstrates that German forces killed the Jews at Babi Yar.

No one here is denying that there were Ukrainian auxiliary police who collaborated with the Germans.  But there is no proof that those collaborators were nationalists.  Most of them, I believe, were not.  They were opportunists.  Many, like the Latvian police collaborator I described above, went on to become party members in the USSR. 

Of course, it's mostly the Germans who are guilty. But Germany is not run by nationalists and doesn't glorify its actions in WWII. Ukraine is a total opposite in this regard.

See above.  Not every nationalist was responsible for war crimes, and no one in Ukraine is glorifying war crimes.  What they do admire is a Ukrainian who said that if Ukraine wanted independence, it could not rely on Poland.  It could not rely on Germany.  It could not rely on Russia.  It had to rely on other Ukrainians. That is what is glorified.  Nothing else.

I don't think that statement is all that radical.  Why can Poles have their own country?  Why can Germans, Italians, Swedes, Finns, Norwegians, Danes, the French, Hungarians, Czechs, etc., all have their own countries, but Ukraine can't?  Because that is what this is about.  Nothing more.

What is the goal of this discussion. The goal is to show that it's not "bad" Russia all of a sudden attacked "good" Ukraine. But Putin had certain reasons to do what he did.

He had no reason to invade an independent country in which the population was not facing genocide.  Crimea even had an independent parliament, and made their own laws! 

Ukraine had no desire to join NATO, and was not a threat to Russia in any manner whatsoever.  Therefore, Putin had no right to invade, and Russia should face international sanctions, and crim

 Ukraine's reputation is far from good.

As opposed to Russia's stellar reputation?   Yes, Ukraine is corrupt.  But so is Russia.  At least Ukraine is not authoritarian.

Germans clearly apologized and made it clear that what they did was wrong.

Surely you have heard of Nuremberg?  After the war, the victors decided how Germany was run.  They didn't hold the first elections for government in Germany until 1949.  The military occupation of West Germany by Allied forces didn't end until 1955.  It wasn't Germans who apologized and stated they were clearly wrong.  It was the result of policies implemented by the war's victors.

Furthermore, what do we see from this now?  A country that has gone so far down the "anti Nazi" train that it has allowed enclaves of foreigners to rule parts of cities, where sharia patrols have been deemed not illegal, where 80% of Turks in Germany live on social benefits, and where people who have worked all their lives are thrown out of their apartments because they are "needed for refugees".

Ukrainians glorify the collaborators.

No they don't.  They admire Bandera, for the reasons I outlined above.

And most people in Crimea and Donbass simply refused to put up with this after Maidan. Then Putin came. That's the right chain of events. And not like some outsiders like Anotherkiwi used to tell that Ukraine was like Switzerland and then bad wolf came and stole part of Ukraine.

That is not the chain of events.  There were "little green men" in Crimea who staged a takeover.  It was not wanted by the Crimean parliament.

The leaders in Donbas were all foreign agents from Russia - Strelkov, Borodai, Girkin, Bashirov, Kavtaradze, Antiyufeev.  Almost all of them are now safely back in Russia.

That old man was clearly speaking Ukrainian and not Russian. 80% of Shuster LIVE is conducted in Ukrainian.

I have never heard Shuster speaking Ukrainian.  Nor is the programme 80% in Ukrainian.  Some guests speak in Ukrainian, some in Russian.  But the point is, the Ukrainian guest you referred to would know that his host is speaking Russian, and would have taken his cues from that.

Obviously, not all nationalists were in Halychyna. But that clearly showed the balance of power in an open battle. It was a guerrilla war in late 1940's and early 1950's. So it's different.

So your assertion was inaccurate.

I still don't see a valid reason why about 50% of a population can't have their native language being official state language. What exactly is the problem with it? Why in Belarus no one complains?

Russians are not 50% of Ukraine's population.  They never were, not even in Soviet times, and, as jone pointed out, with the two largest concentrations of ethnic Russians now either annexed by Russia (Crimea) or controlled by Russia (Donbas, although in the region, only the city of Donetsk was predominantly ethnically Russian), there is even less requirement for Russian to be an official language of Ukraine.

Also you refuse to comment a corruption level in Ukraine. And fighting corruption was the main goal of Maidan. And I strongly disagree that Dutch voted against Ukraine just because it's poor. Romania and Bulgaria are as poor as Ukraine and for some reason Dutch didn't mind them joining the EU in 2007. So what flaw Dutch saw in Ukraine that they didn't see in Romania and Bulgaria? They just realized that Ukraine was not the country it pretended to be.

The main goal of Maidan was not to fight corruption.  It was to demand the government sign the association agreement with the EU.  Corruption was a secondary goal, but not the primary goal.

The Dutch likely would not vote for any of the Eastern European countries, save the Czech Republic, joining the EU, as all have been a financial drain.  That vote was not about Ukraine.  It was about the EU.  But even then, only 32% of eligible voters turned up for the election. 

If you want to discuss corruption, that is a separate matter.  No one, except perhaps Jay, will argue that Ukraine's politicians are anything but corrupt. 

It doesn't matter what was the ethnicity of Brezhnev. Who cares that Stalin was not an ethnic Russian? I don't.

You presented Brezhnev being from Ukraine as some sort of "plus" for Ukrainians.  I merely pointed to the reality.

Western Ukraine is about a quarter of all Ukraine. Therefore, it doesn't represent all Ukraine.

No, but my point all along was that Western Ukraine was invaded by a foreign force, the Soviets.  Western Ukrainians never had an indigenous Bolshevik movement.  They always viewed the Bolsheviks as a foreign invader.

If Bolsheviks were only against Ukraine as you claim, then in RSFSR wouldn't have been any repressions. And the opposite is true. I bet that in RSFSR more than 4 millions died. Therefore what you're saying is irrelevant here. We're not discussing Stalinism here. Bolsheviks had nothing against Ukraine. They treated it same way as other republics, if not better.

Ukrainians had over 20 years of independence before Putin's actions in 2014 to build a stable and successful country free of corruption in which ALL citizens felt at home. Ukrainians in Crimea hated Ukraine all the time after 1991. At least half of people in Donbass felt about the same.

Russia alsohad a chance to built a country free of corruption.  It has not.  Who is living in Donbas?  The terrorists who opposed Kyiv, and then, mostly, those too old or too poor to leave.  Over half its original population has left, and most of those left for other parts of Ukraine.

Remember, it's not me who said that one from the West shouldn't come to Ukraine to get married. It's some forum members who said that one from the West shouldn't come to Russia to get married. Therefore, it's not that I'm attacking Ukraine, but you were attacking Russia. And all I want is just to restore the balance. That's all. I think that people must know all the truth and not just part of it that suits Ukrainian nationalists and CNN.

But you're not posting the truth. 

[Boethius]

It's a complete bs what you've said about languages in Ukraine. In a country of my citizenship, I don't speak its official language as my native one. Though I do speak their language pretty well. But when I was applying for a job, the fact that their language wasn't my native one had a very negative effect on my chances of getting hired. Let's take USA for example. You're an American employer. All other things being equal, whom would you hire, a native English speaker or someone like me? That's what I call a discrimination. Not in America, but in Ukraine. In my country of citizenship, I wasn't discriminated, 'cos my family doesn't have any roots in it. I'm just a naturalized immigrant there. And also unlike in Ukraine, in my country of citizenship there are not so many Russian speakers. As a matter of fact, me not speaking Ukrainian as my native language was one of the main reasons why I didn't want to immigrate to Ukraine.

Non Ukrainian speakers are not discriminated against in Ukraine.

Kuchma did not speak Ukrainian.  Tymoshenko did not speak Ukrainian (but learned it).  Yanukovych, as jone pointed out, did not speak Ukrainian as PM, but learned a little when he ran for president.  Most members of the Party of Regions do not speak Ukrainian, or speak it poorly.  So it is you who is full of it, because there is no discrimination against non Ukrainian speakers. as the number of Russian speaking past presidents of Ukraine proves.

Jews couldn't be collaborating, since Nazis planned to kill all of them. Ghetto jewish "police" is not a collaboration.

There were Jewish collaborators.  It isn't even worth debating because you obviously don't know the history.

Two differences. The first one it being an internal Jewish thing and the second difference is that Jews in ghetto didn't have a choice NOT to collaborate. It's not a collaboration when you're being forced to serve the enemy.

There were Jews who served as auxiliary police outside ghettos or concentration camps. 

Ukrainians joined Waffen SS freely. Germans didn't force anyone to fight for them. Gentile collaborators killed the Jews, not the other way around. Don't play a fool to make it equal. As per ROA and General Vlasov, they collaborated, but in Russia they're treated as traitors. In Ukraine collaborators are local heroes. Small difference.

I view Vlasov sympathetically.  But beside the point.  The Ukrainian SS divisions were formed primarily to fight the Bolsheviks.  They did not commit any acts of genocide.  This has been studied to death, in fact, in Canada, there was a commission that studied it (the Deschenes Commission), and its finding was that Ukrainian SS divisions did not commit war crimes. 

You obviously have a Soviet education.  It is why your knowledge of not only Ukraine, but WWII, in general, is lacking balance.  We can sum up your view as this - Ukrainians=Bad, nationalist Jew killers.  Bolsheviks/communists=Heroes who defeated fascism who never committed war crimes, or crimes against humanity.

[BillyB]

But Germany is not run by nationalists and doesn't glorify its actions in WWII. Ukraine is a total opposite in this regard.

I've been to Ukraine many times. I've been to West Ukraine where the fascists are supposed to be living and never have I experienced discrimination. I'm half Asian. I've seen more blacks in Ivano Frankivsk than anywhere in the FSU. I've had conversations with them and they don't seem paranoid or scared living there. Many are college students from Africa. Putin needed a reason to go into Ukraine so he made up scenario that ethnic Russians needed rescuing from Ukrainian fascists. Some people bought the story.

[papakota]

I've been to Ukraine many times. I've been to West Ukraine where the fascists are supposed to be living and never have I experienced discrimination. I'm half Asian. I've seen more blacks in Ivano Frankivsk than anywhere in the FSU. I've had conversations with them and they don't seem paranoid or scared living there. Many are college students from Africa. Putin needed a reason to go into Ukraine so he made up scenario that ethnic Russians needed rescuing from Ukrainian fascists. Some people bought the story.

I never said that visible minorities were in danger in Ukraine because of their looks. I'm Caucasian, but with Southern facial features. Therefore I stand out in a crowd somewhat in both Russia and Ukraine. But you're mixing two completely different things here. Those African students don't present any kind of a danger in the eyes of Ukrainian nationalists. They're not citizens and they would leave Ukraine soon anyway. Moreover, foreign students can't vote. Also they probably don't participate in local politics. Russian speaking Ukrainians are a totally opposite story in that regard. You try to compare apples and oranges. You also misunderstood Putin. When someone in Russia says "Russian", they don't necessarily mean an ethnic Russian. I'm Russian in Russia, though I'm not an ethnic Russian. In my Russian marriage license I'm Russian. Semi official position of current Russian authorities is that a Russian is someone who speaks Russian as their native language, who's Russian Orthodox by faith and who lives in Russia. I fit those criteria.

I didn't buy Putin's story and I still don't. Putin is not Russia and Russia is not Putin. I protect Russian interests, not Putin's. I want Russia to restore good relations with the West. Also I think that in the best of Russian interests to have Ukraine as a friendly neighbor. Crimea is part of Russian Federation and Donbass is part of Ukraine. It's a law in Russia and therefore it's also my "official" and public position. I just obey the law. My personal opinion doesn't matter.

Why my position to fight corruption is bad for Ukraine? What damage will be made if Russian were to become a second state language in Ukraine? Why Ukraine can't find better heroes that Nazi collaborators?

One thing is for sure. If you can't find a common denominator with someone like me, you will never restore good relations with Russia. And to have bad relations with Russia won't help Ukraine. Recent events showed it quite clearly.

I have some good news. Looks like my Russian citizenship application is processed in my favor. I hope soon to get an official paper from the government. After 26 years, looks like I got it back finally. Of course, Soviet citizenship is not the same as Russian, but something close.

[Boethius]

If you look at over 300 years of Ukraine's history, including 2014, Russia has indeed been a threat to Ukrainian independence.   Therefore, those nationalists have every reason to be wary of Russia.

Ukrainian nationalists never viewed Russian speaking Ukrainians as a threat.

Why should Russian be a state language in Ukraine?  Russian language is in no way threatened.  Russians were never threatened in Ukraine.

[papakota]

We're not in a court and I'm not a public prosecutor. I don't have a clear evidence in my hands. It's like my great grandma probably was killed in Kiev during an occupation, but I don't know for sure. Theoretically she could've married a German soldier and they lived happily ever after outside of Soviet Union. Same with Bandera. Maybe he didn't know or maybe he knew. It's a waste of time to get deep into this. We probably will never know for sure. I never said that Bandera had killed anybody, Jews including. But amongst Ukrainian nationalists were much more pro Nazi people. You mentioned Melnyk. I mentioned "police" and Waffen SS. Even Bandera at first tried to collaborate. It's when he found out that Germans wouldn't allow him to establish an independent Ukraine, only then he turned against them. It's a collaboration. What if Germans agreed? The guy who collaborated with Nazis shouldn't be a hero in a European country. Period. There's nothing to argue about here. Israel, Poland and Russia are totally different in any way, but they somehow agree about Ukraine when it comes to war crimes being committed by Ukrainian nationalists during WWII. I also mentioned ADL, which is an American famous public organization. They also share similar views. If everything is so great and peaceful in Ukraine now, then why so many people beg to differ?

I didn't say that Ukrainian "police" had killed the Jews in Babiy Yar. I said they had been helping Germans. Complicit if you will.

Shuster himself speaks Russian. But most guests speak Ukrainian, including that old man that I mentioned. Also I provided another example of TV program in which they only spoke Ukrainian and still used a word "evrei".

I'm talking about pre Maidan Ukraine. I didn't say that ethnic Russians were 50%, but Russian speakers. Lots of ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian as their native language. Also don't forget that not only Russians and Ukrainians live in Ukraine. I know one Armenian man from Odessa. He speaks Russian.

No association with EU can be remotely possible unless Ukraine can demonstrate success in fighting against corruption. It's pretty much the main criterion for the EU to decide whether an Eastern European state is kosher enough to join EU. And fools who think otherwise. Romania and Bulgaria both showed a clear progress in that regard before they were accepted as member states. So far Ukraine showed about zero progress. Czech Republic is technically Central European, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that the Dutch AGREED in 2007 to allow poor Romania and Bulgaria to join the EU. It's a fact of life.  If money was the only thing that mattered to Dutch people, they easily could've blocked those two countries from joining the EU. Prior to 2007 it was clear that countries like Bulgaria and Romania would require financial help from richer European countries.

I think Brezhnev cared about Ukraine and associated himself with Ukraine. And who told you that he wasn't Ukrainian? Brezhnev himself? I'll attach his Soviet passport scan from 1947 where it says that he's an ethnic Ukrainian.

I have no reason to lie. No one pays me or anything. I try to be objective.

[papakota]

Non Ukrainian speakers are not discriminated against in Ukraine.

Kuchma did not speak Ukrainian.  Tymoshenko did not speak Ukrainian (but learned it).  Yanukovych, as jone pointed out, did not speak Ukrainian as PM, but learned a little when he ran for president.  Most members of the Party of Regions do not speak Ukrainian, or speak it poorly.  So it is you who is full of it, because there is no discrimination against non Ukrainian speakers. as the number of Russian speaking past presidents of Ukraine proves.There were Jewish collaborators.  It isn't even worth debating because you obviously don't know the history.
There were Jews who served as auxiliary police outside ghettos or concentration camps. 

I view Vlasov sympathetically.  But beside the point.  The Ukrainian SS divisions were formed primarily to fight the Bolsheviks.  They did not commit any acts of genocide.  This has been studied to death, in fact, in Canada, there was a commission that studied it (the Deschenes Commission), and its finding was that Ukrainian SS divisions did not commit war crimes. 

You obviously have a Soviet education.  It is why your knowledge of not only Ukraine, but WWII, in general, is lacking balance.  We can sum up your view as this - Ukrainians=Bad, nationalist Jew killers.  Bolsheviks/communists=Heroes who defeated fascism who never committed war crimes, or crimes against humanity.

When you say something, show at least a source of information. It doesn't matter whether ROA or Waffen SS committed genocide or not. They were traitors and that's bad enough. Soviet education has nothing to do with it. In most European countries collaborators were tried and most of them executed. Treason is treason. In Africa or in Russia. What happens to traitors in the US? Unlike in Russia, in "democratic" US death penalty exists and it's widely used. Your pro Nazi views don't surprise me. It's only logical.

Are you kidding? Those guys are POLITICIANS. It's totally different than to try to get hired in a private sector. Timoshenko speaks very good Ukrainian as far as I can tell. Why someone like Yanukovitch had to speak Ukrainian as his mother tongue if he represented Russian speakers? In his case, his lack of knowledge of Ukrainian probably helped him to gather electoral support in Donbass.

Provide a link which shows that Jews were collaborating outside of ghettos or concentration camps. Would be interesting to see that. The only Jews who were serving Hitler were part Jewish German Wermacht soldiers. But those guys weren't really Jewish to begin with.

I said nothing bad about Ukrainians in general. My grandpa was born and raised in Ukraine. He fought Nazis in Western Ukraine and was wounded there. There were lots of Ukrainians in Red Army. Here's a good example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Timoshenko
Timoshenko was born into a peasant family of Ukrainian ethnicity at Furmanivka, in the Budjak region.

I never said that all collaborators were Jew killers. But they helped Nazis to kill the Jews and not only the Jews.
I disagree with 90% of Soviet ideology and probably with 70% of Putin's views. My anti Fascist views are not necessarily Bolsheviks' views.

Another lie of yours is that you claim that I say that Communists never committed crimes. Stalin's regime was one big crime from A to Z. Even depriving me of a Soviet citizenship was a crime, especially 'cos I was a minor in 1990. But technically in USSR that was legal. I find Marx's ideas one big bs.

And it's not Bolsheviks who defeated fascism, but Red Army. Big difference. And Western Allies helped Red Army.

Comment on this. Oh, those Ukrainian nationalists aren't Nazis, they just wear Nazi symbols. You know, one doesn't have to have NSDAP membership book in his pocket to be a Neo Nazi.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/german-tv-shows-nazi-symbols-helmets-ukraine-soldiers-n198961

[Larry1]

Your pro Nazi views don't surprise me. It's only logical.

I've been reading RWD for about six years. I don't read every thread but I do read almost all of the history threads. I've never read Boethius write anything that is pro Nazi.

[Bee Farmer]

I didn't say that Ukrainian "police" had killed the Jews in Babiy Yar. I said they had been helping Germans. Complicit if you will.

It is only complicity if they helped the Germans kill the Jews.  if the Ukrainian police helped the Germans in other ways, they were not complicit.  The only way they could be complicit is if they actively participated in the killings.  (If I tie your hands and blindfold you, and stand you in front of the firing squad, I am complicit in killing you, even if I did not pull the trigger.  If I am a grocer and I sell groceries to the Germans who are doing the killing, I am not complicit in the murders, even though I helped the Germans.)

I know English is not your native language.  People may be misunderstanding you because you are using words incorrectly.

I said nothing bad about Ukrainians in general.

True.  You did not say anything bad in general.  You said bad things about Ukrainians specifically.

[papakota]

I've been reading RWD for about six years. I don't read every thread but I do read almost all of the history threads. I've never read Boethius write anything that is pro Nazi.

Justifying Nazi collaborators is pro Nazi.

[Boethius]

We're not in a court and I'm not a public prosecutor. I don't have a clear evidence in my hands. It's like my great grandma probably was killed in Kiev during an occupation, but I don't know for sure. Theoretically she could've married a German soldier and they lived happily ever after outside of Soviet Union. Same with Bandera. Maybe he didn't know or maybe he knew. It's a waste of time to get deep into this. We probably will never know for sure. I never said that Bandera had killed anybody, Jews including. But amongst Ukrainian nationalists were much more pro Nazi people.

The premise of your posts was that Ukrainian nationalists venerate a Nazi who killed Jews and Poles.  I pointed out that the only person to whom monuments are erected in Western Ukraine is Stepan Bandera.  Yes, he was imperfect, but there is zero evidence, anywhere, that he even knew of UPA's slaughter of thousands of Jews or 75,000 to 100,000 Poles.  That has always been the issue I have been addressing. 

You cannot state that today's Ukrainians are fascists based on Soviet, and now, Russian propaganda, rather than actual, accurate, historical facts.  Your words:

Ukrainian nationalists were behind Khatyn, Volyn and Babiy Yar.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21404.msg450762#msg450762

Even Bandera at first tried to collaborate. It's when he found out that Germans wouldn't
 allow him to establish an independent Ukraine, only then he turned against them. It's a collaboration. What if Germans agreed? The guy who collaborated with Nazis shouldn't be a hero in a European country. Period. There's nothing to argue about here. Israel, Poland and Russia are totally different in any way, but they somehow agree about Ukraine when it comes to war crimes being committed by Ukrainian nationalists during WWII.

Actually, no, that is inaccurate.  Bandera was in prison for the assassination of a Polish politician.  He'd been sentenced to death, but his death sentence had been commuted to life imprisonment.  The Germans released him when they invaded Poland in 1939.  Bandera had cultivated contacts within the German military who were favorable to Ukrainian independence.  He prepared a proclamation of Ukrainian statehood on June 30, 1941, 9 days after Operation Barbarossa. When he refused to rescind it, he was arrested.  That was in July of 1941, and he remained in a concentration camp until 1944.   So, Bandera's "collaboration" amounted to less than a month, and included a proclamation of Ukrainian independence.

I didn't say that Ukrainian "police" had killed the Jews in Babiy Yar. I said they had been helping Germans. Complicit if you will.

I repeat.  This is what you posted -

Ukrainian nationalists were behind Khatyn, Volyn and Babiy Yar.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21404.msg450762#msg450762

Shuster himself speaks Russian. But most guests speak Ukrainian, including that old man that I mentioned. Also I provided another example of TV program in which they only spoke Ukrainian and still used a word "evrei".

No, that is inaccurate.  Some guests speak Ukrainian.  Some speak Russian.  There are plenty of broadcasts which are entirely in Russian, because I've watched them.  Even the broadcast on UPA/collaboration had guests who spoke solely in Russian. 

Incidentally, Shuster Live often criticizes Ukrainian politicians, including its president, and Ukrainian society.  How many programmes like this, criticizing Putin and the Duma, exist?

I'm talking about pre Maidan Ukraine. I didn't say that ethnic Russians were 50%, but Russian speakers. Lots of ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian as their native language. Also don't forget that not only Russians and Ukrainians live in Ukraine. I know one Armenian man from Odessa. He speaks Russian.

Irrelevant.  Ethnic Russians in 2001 amounted to 17.2% of Ukraine's population.  A little over 15% of them lived in Crimea, which did, in fact, have its own laws and produced documents in Russian.

The law on Ukrainian being the sole official language of Ukraine, meaning government documents are produced in Ukrainian, dates back to 1996.  So to suggest that anything was changing, or that all of a sudden, because of nationalist pressure, something new was occurring in Ukraine which required a Russian invasion is disingenuous at best.  No one in Ukraine, ever, denied those who wished to function in Russian the right to speak Russian in their business life, or print Russian language publications, or attend Russian schools, or listen to Russian language radio/television.  The only thing they could not do, outside Crimea, was have official government documents prepared in the Russian language.

No association with EU can be remotely possible unless Ukraine can demonstrate success in fighting against corruption. It's pretty much the main criterion for the EU to decide whether an Eastern European state is kosher enough to join EU. And fools who think otherwise. Romania and Bulgaria both showed a clear progress in that regard before they were accepted as member states. So far Ukraine showed about zero progress. Czech Republic is technically Central European, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that the Dutch AGREED in 2007 to allow poor Romania and Bulgaria to join the EU. It's a fact of life.  If money was the only thing that mattered to Dutch people, they easily could've blocked those two countries from joining the EU. Prior to 2007 it was clear that countries like Bulgaria and Romania would require financial help from richer European countries.

2007 is not 2016.  What is happening across Europe is an uprising against unelected bureaucrats, and further, a reaction against East Europeans who move to the wealthy countries of the EU (most particularly the UK) and receive benefits which they transfer to their home countries.  In most cases, East European nationals pay more into those benefit systems than they withdraw, but the perception is that they are bleeding the northern EU countries at the expense of indigenous populations. 

Many Europeans rue the day Romania and Bulgaria were allowed into the EU because, if you have ever been to Rome, Paris, Stockholm, or London, you will have been accosted by Romani beggars, or been pickpocketed by them.  There have always been pickpockets in these cities, but it has reached epidemic proportions since Bulgaria's, and more so, Romania's admission to the EU.

Parts of the Association Agreement have already been implemented, so apparently, the EU does not share your concerns about Ukraine.

You've also assumed the Association Agreement means Ukraine will become an EU member country.  That is not necessarily the case, nor was it intended to be so.

I think Brezhnev cared about Ukraine and associated himself with Ukraine. And who told you that he wasn't Ukrainian? Brezhnev himself? I'll attach his Soviet passport scan from 1947 where it says that he's an ethnic Ukrainian.

His parents were from Kursk.  Brezhnev is not a Ukrainian surname.  His mother's maiden name was Mazalova, also not a Ukrainian surname.

Brezhnev's ethnicity was listed as Ukrainian or Russian, depending on what he believed was politically expedient.  I've attached a link to official Soviet documents that list his ethnicity as Russian.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brezhnev_LI_OrOtVo_NagrList_1943.jpg?uselang=en

[Boethius]

Justifying Nazi collaborators is pro Nazi.

I am not justifying anyone.  I am saying that your assertions on Ukrainian nationalists are inaccurate, and your assertion that Bandera committed war crimes is inaccurate.