Language, Culture, and Other Issues

[papakota]

It is only complicity if they helped the Germans kill the Jews.  if the Ukrainian police helped the Germans in other ways, they were not complicit.  The only way they could be complicit is if they actively participated in the killings.  (If I tie your hands and blindfold you, and stand you in front of the firing squad, I am complicit in killing you, even if I did not pull the trigger.  If I am a grocer and I sell groceries to the Germans who are doing the killing, I am not complicit in the murders, even though I helped the Germans.)

I know English is not your native language.  People may be misunderstanding you because you are using words incorrectly.

True.  You did not say anything bad in general.  You said bad things about Ukrainians specifically.

No, I didn't say anything bad specifically. I said right things about those people who were doing bad things during WWII, i.e., about Nazi collaborators. Half of Europe collaborated. Speaking of European values. Values of Auschwitz. Maybe my geography is as bad as my English.

Don't bs me about the grocery store. Those Ukrainians who were helping Germans AT LEAST were used as GUARDS. And when someone is making sure that people won't run away and everyone gets killed, it's a complicity. My English is fine. In Russian it's called "соучастие в преступлении". Also there's a good chance that Ukrainian "police" officers did pull the triggers. They would if they could. Maybe Germans didn't trust them enough to give them weapons, I don't know. I don't give benefit of a doubt to Nazi collaborators and to people like you and some others here.

And if Euromaidan's goal was to join EU, then corruption, Nazi glorification and discrimination won't help to achieve it.
I'm a pro Western person. But "West" in my book is Roosevelt and Churchill and in your book it's Bandera and Hitler. That's where we differ. Why in America when neo Nazis support Trump, it's a scandal and someone like Tyagnibok in Ukraine is a norm? I don't believe in double standards. As you say, what's good for the goose, good for a gander.

[papakota]

I am not justifying anyone.  I am saying that your assertions on Ukrainian nationalists are inaccurate, and your assertion that Bandera committed war crimes is inaccurate.

Then who committed war crimes?

[papakota]

Boethius,
In post No. 114 just before the end you wrote that you were viewing Vlasov sympathetically. How is it not a justification of Nazi collaborators?

[Boethius]

When you say something, show at least a source of information. It doesn't matter whether ROA or Waffen SS committed genocide or not. They were traitors and that's bad enough. Soviet education has nothing to do with it. In most European countries collaborators were tried and most of them executed. Treason is treason. In Africa or in Russia. What happens to traitors in the US? Unlike in Russia, in "democratic" US death penalty exists and it's widely used. Your pro Nazi views don't surprise me. It's only logical.

Sure your Soviet education has everything to do with your obscure perspective. 

As for most collaborators being tried and executed, you are also mistaken.  The Allied forces did execute Nazi leaders, but by 1947, the Americans already thought differently.  Lots of Nazi scientists worked for both the Soviets (by force) and the Americans (read about "Operation Paperclip" - the restriction to not accept Nazis was dropped, because the most valuable scientists were former Nazis).  There are also allegations the Catholic Church aided many Nazis in their escape to South America.  I don't know if that is accurate, but someone helped them, as they could not have achieved this on their own.

Are you kidding? Those guys are POLITICIANS. It's totally different than to try to get hired in a private sector. Timoshenko speaks very good Ukrainian as far as I can tell. Why someone like Yanukovitch had to speak Ukrainian as his mother tongue if he represented Russian speakers? In his case, his lack of knowledge of Ukrainian probably helped him to gather electoral support in Donbass.

Tymoshenko's Ukrainian language is not fluent. 
Signed, a fluent Ukrainian speaker.

Stop arguing out of both sides of your mouth.  First, you complain about the discrimination against Russians, and then when it is pointed out that the previous president of Ukraine did not speak Ukrainian, you argue he represented Russian speakers.

BTW, Yanukovych could not have been elected solely by Russian speakers, as they are not the majority of voters in Ukraine.

Provide a link which shows that Jews were collaborating outside of ghettos or concentration camps. Would be interesting to see that. The only Jews who were serving Hitler were part Jewish German Wermacht soldiers. But those guys weren't really Jewish to begin with.

Read about Georg Kareski.  Or Ans Van Dijk.  Or Alfred Nossig.  Or Stella Kubler. 

You can also read this book-

http://www.amazon.com/Eichmanns-Jews-Administration-Holocaust-1938-1945/dp/0745646824

The Austrian model was copied throughout Eastern Europe.  Again, I am more sympathetic to the Judenrat than most, they didn't have many choices in determining who would survive.

I know a Hungarian man who was a child in Budapest during WWII.  He was the child of a wealthy Jewish family that had converted to Christianity (very common in Central Europe).  But, he was still considered a Jew by the Arrow Cross.  His father died in a march from a concentration camp at the end of the war.  He and his mother moved constantly, and survived.  He told me that the most ruthless hunters of Jews in Hungary were other Jews.  His stories are fascinating.  He lived for a time in a monastery, with other boys, he had Christmas dinner at a Budapest apartment, and his favourite memory of that day was listening to the daughter of the apartment's owner play pieces for them on her baby grand piano.  A week later, that apartment was bombed, and all its inhabitants were killed.  Then there is the story of his daring escape from Hungary before 1956, but after the communists had seized power.

I said nothing bad about Ukrainians in general. My grandpa was born and raised in Ukraine. He fought Nazis in Western Ukraine and was wounded there. There were lots of Ukrainians in Red Army. Here's a good example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Timoshenko
Timoshenko was born into a peasant family of Ukrainian ethnicity at Furmanivka, in the Budjak region.

Well duh on Ukrainians in the Red Army.  Who were the first Red Army soldiers captured by the Germans?  Two million of them starved to death in German concentration camps on Ukrainian soil, thanks to Stalin's ineptitude.  The rest were sent to concentration camps, where some were the first guinea pigs for testing of the gas chambers, and others were given the choice to die there or serve as camp guards.

Comment on this. Oh, those Ukrainian nationalists aren't Nazis, they just wear Nazi symbols. You know, one doesn't have to have NSDAP membership book in his pocket to be a Neo Nazi.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/german-tv-shows-nazi-symbols-helmets-ukraine-soldiers-n198961

So what?  You can find Russians wearing Nazi symbols as well.  It's irrelevant to the points being raised.

[Boethius]

Boethius,
In post No. 114 just before the end you wrote that you were viewing Vlasov sympathetically. How is it not a justification of Nazi collaborators?

Because he was fighting an equally horrendous monster, the USSR. 

[Boethius]

Then who committed war crimes?

UPA did commit war crimes.  But so did the Soviets.  The Jews of Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, and Donetsk were killed by communists, not UPA.

The Red Army left a trail of war crimes across Europe.  In Poland and Germany, they raped millions of women.  Here is a movie about their systemic rape of Polish nuns, as documented by French physician Madeleine Pauliac -

http://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/innocents-tells-story-trauma-grace

[krimster2]

Papakota,

this statement along with many others illustrates why it's a complete waste of time communicating with you:

."...But "West" in my book is Roosevelt and Churchill and in your book it's Bandera and Hitler."

I am a descendant of Ukrainian Jews who left after a RUSSIAN pogrom, I am every bit as anti-fascist as Boethius.  Since your view of Maidan  has been formed by Russian TV, I'd urge you to look at Youtube, Maidan was a spontaneous uprising by Ukrainians of all backgrounds and beliefs against the corrupt Yanakovich admin, and a desire for Ukraine to be part of Europe and independent of Russia, of course Russia needs to instead mock such an attempt of the people to control their own destiny against a corrupt and authoritarian regime, and label it with the one "buzzword" that every Russian understands, "fashista", they should just call it the "f" word!  As usual, everything out of the Kremlin is a total lie

[papakota]

You're funny. It's not me who is against Bandera. I don't care about him. Whether he's good or bad. After all, Ukrainians have a right to erect monuments to anyone they like. But the whole point is that UKRAINIANS are against Bandera. It's under ethnic Ukrainian President Yanukovitch, a Ukrainian Court in Ukrainian city of Donetsk cancelled Yuschenko's decree of heroization of Bandera. It didn't happen in Jerusalem, Moscow or Warsaw. Obviously, Bandera is a very controversial figure in Ukrainian history. And it's not Putin who disregarded an opinion of about half of the population of Ukraine. I can give you a good and recent example from Russia. Recently Russian authorities in St. Petersburg erected a monument to General Mannerheim. He was a Russian general under Nicholas II. But during WWII Mannerheim participated in a Leningrad's blockade. Siege of Leningrad if you use this term in English. Some Russians vandalized the monument and there was a public controversy. So the authorities simply removed the monument and took it to a museum.

And what is UPA? UPA is a military wing of Ukrainian nationalist movement to which Bandera belonged.

If it was up to me Shuster would be broadcasting in Moscow. Regardless, that old man spoke Ukrainian and not Russian.
End of story.

17%? Don't make me laugh. You know, in 2005 I was dating a typical Western Ukrainian young woman in Ternopol. Her native language was Ukrainian, but we spoke Russian when we were together. And I was extreamly surprised to find out her last name. It was a typical Russian one. I asked her why she had a Russian last name. She told me that her father was ethnic Russian. And it's TERNOPOL we're talking about! Not Odessa. And you're talking about 17%? In pre Maidan Ukraine, I'd say that at least a third of the population were ethnic Russians. Plus some Russian speaking ethnic Ukrainians and we get approximately 50% of Russian speakers.

Those "unelected bureaucrats" were appointed by VERY ELECTED politicians. It's the Europeans who created EU, not Putin. If Europeans are unhappy about EU, they are free to leave it. Brexit is a good example. And so far out of 29 EU countries only ONE is ABOUT to leave. Even the British haven't triggered that article 50 yet. And also there's a whole BUNCH of European countries (Ukraine including) that beg to be accepted. Russia and Belarus. Maybe also Armenia if it's in Europe. I'm not sure. Plus Norway and Switzerland. So we have about 5 countries that don't want to be in EU and about 40 that do want. I don't count Iceland and some very small states like Monaco.

According to your logic, if there's mafia in Sicily, then Italy should get out of EU? Petty crime is far from being Europe's biggest problem now. 6000 people were killed in Ukraine, hundreds were killed in France and other countries because of terrorist acts. Also it's not against Romania the Dutch voted, but against Ukraine. And I'm sure that even in 2007 it was easy to predict everything that you mentioned. Doesn't have to be a genius to figure that out.

It doesn't really matter whether Brezhnev was an ethnic Ukrainian. Even if he was an ethnic Russian, he favored Ukraine if he chose Ukrainian as his ethnicity in some of his Soviet documents. After all, he could've put "Russian" EVERYWHERE.

[papakota]

Papakota,

this statement along with many others illustrates why it's a complete waste of time communicating with you:

."...But "West" in my book is Roosevelt and Churchill and in your book it's Bandera and Hitler."

I am a descendant of Ukrainian Jews who left after a RUSSIAN pogrom, I am every bit as anti-fascist as Boethius.  Since your view of Maidan  has been formed by Russian TV, I'd urge you to look at Youtube, Maidan was a spontaneous uprising by Ukrainians of all backgrounds and beliefs against the corrupt Yanakovich admin, and a desire for Ukraine to be part of Europe and independent of Russia, of course Russia needs to instead mock such an attempt of the people to control their own destiny against a corrupt and authoritarian regime, and label it with the one "buzzword" that every Russian understands, "fashista", they should just call it the "f" word!  As usual, everything out of the Kremlin is a total lie

I think we speak different languages you and I. I told 10 times already that I'm a pro Maidan person and Kremlin propaganda doesn't have any affect on me. Just because I see eye to eye about something with Kremlin, that doesn't mean we agree about the rest. I just don't like nationalists. Any nationalists. That's all there's to it. Some nationalists are fascist, some aren't. But the very goal of my discussion is not to discuss that, but I just want to show that the situation isn't as simple as some may think. And also I try to show that even if someone disagrees with Kremlin, that shouldn't mean that he must avoid Russia.

[papakota]

Stop arguing out of both sides of your mouth.  First, you complain about the discrimination against Russians, and then when it is pointed out that the previous president of Ukraine did not speak Ukrainian, you argue he represented Russian speakers.

BTW, Yanukovych could not have been elected solely by Russian speakers, as they are not the majority of voters in Ukraine.

So what?  You can find Russians wearing Nazi symbols as well.  It's irrelevant to the points being raised.

I never said that every single Nazi was punished after WWII. Even on Nuremberg trial they found some defendants not guilty. Jalmar Schacht was one of them. But I'm not an expert on this stuff. It's not my point. My point is that in every European country (except for Ukraine and Baltic states) Nazi collaborators are not glorified.

What I mean is that in pre Maidan Ukraine a lack of knowledge of Ukrainian language wasn't an obstacle for someone who wanted to get into politics. Yanukovitch is a good example, among many others. But that's irrelevant to our discussion. We talk about regular jobs in private companies. What it has do with the politicians that you mentioned. Absolutely nothing. Say, if I were Ukrainian and wanted to work at Microsoft Ukraine in customer support. They could've told me that they required a knowledge of Ukrainian, since it's a state language. And according to you, I could've told them that it didn't matter since Yanukovitch himself didn't speak Ukrainian.

It's very relevant. Yes, some people in Russia wear Nazi symbols. But not openly and not as soldiers on duty in Russian Army. In that article it was written that some Ukrainian soldiers wore openly Nazi symbols while being in active military service. You won't find something like that in Russia.

[alex330]

But not openly and not as soldiers on duty in Russian Army. In that article it was written that some Ukrainian soldiers wore openly Nazi symbols while being in active military service. You won't find something like that in Russia.

I was under the impression many Russian soldiers openly wore the Russian National Unity pin on their St George ribbons.

[Belvis]

Or simply Belvis lost his password?

Oops, no - my new comp still remember the password.  Just have nothing to add in the discussion of hot finnish guys (russian idiom).
Everything is going in right direction now 

[jone]

Oops, no - my new comp still remember the password.  Just have nothing to add in the discussion of hot finnish guys (russian idiom).
Everything is going in right direction now 

Aren't you supposed to be a computer network Guru?

[papakota]

I was under the impression many Russian soldiers openly wore the Russian National Unity pin on their St George ribbons.

I highly doubt it. Where do you see Russian soldiers? In your dreams? I've been living in Russia for 3,5 years and I rarely see any military men around. Unlike in Israel where you see them everywhere (not the Russian ones, of course).

[alex330]

I highly doubt it. Where do you see Russian soldiers? In your dreams? I've been living in Russia for 3,5 years and I rarely see any military men around.

I usually dream of Russian popkas, not underfed soldiers, but that is just me.

They would be Russian soldiers in Ukraine, not Russia. I doubt they would be allowed to wear them in Russia, just as US marines are not allowed to show off the Aryan Nation or 14/88 tattoos.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1075678/

Stormfront should be a good source for this, yes?

[Gator]

Aren't you supposed to be a computer network Guru?

Perhaps he has been hacked in revenge by the Democrat National Party.    
We will read all about it on WikiLeaks. 

[papakota]

I understand that Georg Kareski cooperated with Nazis in order to save German Jews. I don't call it a collaboration. Nazi collaborators killed Jews (and not only Jews) to score points in Germans' eyes. And that guy just tried to save people from genocide. A silly comparison. Okay, I'll read about other people in that list.

[papakota]

Ans van Dijk wasn't a Nazi collaborator. She was a war criminal. She had a choice, either to die or to help Nazis. So she helped to kill others to save herself. It's not the case with UPA, Szalasi and others. These guys didn't have a clear and immediate danger to their lives.

[papakota]

Alfred Nossig was in Warsaw ghetto himself. So it's more or less the same as with Ans van Dijk. He tried to prolong his life by betraying others. It's not a collaboration in my book. Again, for me a collaboration is when someone who is not in a clear and immediate danger tries to help the enemy.

[papakota]

Same with Stella Kübler. She didn't come to Nazis. They came to her. They tortured her and were about to kill her and her family.

[mhr7]

I highly doubt it. Where do you see Russian soldiers? In your dreams? I've been living in Russia for 3,5 years and I rarely see any military men around. Unlike in Israel where you see them everywhere (not the Russian ones, of course).

Come to Rostov, where I live, then you'll see them everyday.

[jone]

Perhaps he has been hacked in revenge by the Democrat National Party.    
We will read all about it on WikiLeaks.

Nah, I heard BC was the hacker.  The reason he was so pro-Hillary is the payoff he was gonna get for those 30,000 emails.  Anything juicy in there, BC?

[Boethius]

You're funny. It's not me who is against Bandera. I don't care about him. Whether he's good or bad. After all, Ukrainians have a right to erect monuments to anyone they like. But the whole point is that UKRAINIANS are against Bandera. It's under ethnic Ukrainian President Yanukovitch, a Ukrainian Court in Ukrainian city of Donetsk cancelled Yuschenko's decree of heroization of Bandera. It didn't happen in Jerusalem, Moscow or Warsaw.

Yanukovich is not an ethnic Ukrainian.  He is a Belarussian.


Donetsk is the only city in Ukraine with a majority ethnically Russian population, one which views anything from Western Ukraine as "fascist", whether that is true or not.

Obviously, Bandera is a very controversial figure in Ukrainian history. And it's not Putin who disregarded an opinion of about half of the population of Ukraine.

It's not half the population of Ukraine.  It is pockets.  But, beside the point.


I don't agree that Bandera should have received state recognition, for a number of reasons.  But that is not what I was referring to.

And what is UPA? UPA is a military wing of Ukrainian nationalist movement to which Bandera belonged.

Yes, but to further complicate matters, UPA, like OUN, was split in two.  So you have to further look to who was head of the factions.  I repeat.  There is not one shred of evidence Bandera ordered UPA to carry out any atrocities.  He is respected for his desire for Ukrainians to fight for their own state.  Nothing more.

If it was up to me Shuster would be broadcasting in Moscow. Regardless, that old man spoke Ukrainian and not Russian.
End of story.

Shuster could never work in government controlled Russian media.  In Ukraine, he is free to criticize the government and society as much as he wishes.

17%? Don't make me laugh. You know, in 2005 I was dating a typical Western Ukrainian young woman in Ternopol. Her native language was Ukrainian, but we spoke Russian when we were together. And I was extreamly surprised to find out her last name. It was a typical Russian one. I asked her why she had a Russian last name. She told me that her father was ethnic Russian. And it's TERNOPOL we're talking about! Not Odessa. And you're talking about 17%? In pre Maidan Ukraine, I'd say that at least a third of the population were ethnic Russians. Plus some Russian speaking ethnic Ukrainians and we get approximately 50% of Russian speakers.

Ternopil. 


Had you read some of my posts, you would know that Western Ukraine was flooded by Russians. You would also know that Western Ukraine was ruled directly from Moscow, not Kyiv.  That was a deliberate policy of Moscow, to counter Ukrainian nationalism in that region, and it existed to the collapse of the USSR.  Almost all of those Russians have left since the collapse of the USSR.  You may have dated a RW from Ternopil, but she would constitute a decided minority in Western Ukraine. 


I've been to Ternopil, as I have family there.  If you step on their streets today, you will not hear Russian. 

Those "unelected bureaucrats" were appointed by VERY ELECTED politicians. It's the Europeans who created EU, not Putin. If Europeans are unhappy about EU, they are free to leave it. Brexit is a good example. And so far out of 29 EU countries only ONE is ABOUT to leave. Even the British haven't triggered that article 50 yet. And also there's a whole BUNCH of European countries (Ukraine including) that beg to be accepted. Russia and Belarus. Maybe also Armenia if it's in Europe. I'm not sure. Plus Norway and Switzerland. So we have about 5 countries that don't want to be in EU and about 40 that do want. I don't count Iceland and some very small states like Monaco.

The bureaucrats who propose laws are not elected by politicians.  I am not referring to Junker.

It doesn't really matter whether Brezhnev was an ethnic Ukrainian. Even if he was an ethnic Russian, he favored Ukraine if he chose Ukrainian as his ethnicity in some of his Soviet documents. After all, he could've put "Russian" EVERYWHERE.

His ethnicity changed based on what was most politically favorable for Brezhnev.  Nothing more.  Suggesting a Bolshevik who was responsible for policies of Russification in Ukraine was pro Ukrainian is so absurd it doesn't even warrant a serious riposte.

[Boethius]

Over the weekend, as I walked the streets of Banff with the better half, I asked him about the use of the word "zhid".

The better half is fluent in Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Serbo-Croatian, OCS, and can speak Belarussian, Czech, and Slovak.  He can understand Bulgarian.

He told me that the word "zhid" is the normal word for someone Jewish in the Ukrainian language.  It came from Poland, as this is the only word used in Poland.  He also said prohibition of the word "zhid" came to Ukraine during Kaganovich's rule of the republic, a time of intense Russification.  It wasn't limited to just "zhid".  It was any word Kaganovich personally deemed offensive to Jews.   He said it was a huge campaign, and very serious repercussions for those who failed to adhere to Kaganocich's diktats.  There was a joke that "podzhydat" had to be changed to "podevrayuvat" to satisfy Kaganovich's linguistic dictums.

He also told me that most former Soviets, being relatively obscure, would fail to recognize the linguistic differences.  He hit that nail on the head.

[papakota]

He told me that the word "zhid" is the normal word for someone Jewish in the Ukrainian language.  It came from Poland, as this is the only word used in Poland.  He also said prohibition of the word "zhid" came to Ukraine during Kaganovich's rule of the republic, a time of intense Russification.  It wasn't limited to just "zhid".  It was any word Kaganovich personally deemed offensive to Jews.   He said it was a huge campaign, and very serious repercussions for those who failed to adhere to Kaganocich's diktats.  There was a joke that "podzhydat" had to be changed to "podevrayuvat" to satisfy Kaganovich's linguistic dictums.

In Kaganovich's time it was a Ukrainization. My grandma couldn't even learn in her native Russian in Kiev in late 1920's. Her official school documents were ONLY in Ukrainian. In Brezhnev's time school papers were in a local language of a republic and also in Russian. And considering the pogroms in Ukraine (Russian Empire), Kaganovich had good reasons to interfere. Regardless, nowadays a word "zhid" in former Soviet Union is similar to a word "nigger" in the US. Maybe in a place like Lvov, it's different and there due to a polonization in Ukrainian language, "zhid" is more acceptable, but it's not acceptable in most of Ukraine. That's why it's not being used in public. Of course, nationalistic people like you, among themselves use it. Same as here. Though your views I would consider almost as Neo Nazi. Nationalistic is too mild of a term. Give me a link to a Ukrainian mainstream TV program in which they use a word "zhid". Otherwise, it's all bs from a person who can't distinguish "place" from "town" in your favorite Ukrainian.