Does a RW need to speak good English, I think not.

[KenC]

Durk,
Besides the obvious problems that come from the inability of the couple to communicate with each other, the lack of English skills also makes for a more difficult transition to the RW's new country.  Social isolation is one of the biggest problems in her transition and the bigger the language barrier, the more isolated she will feel.
KenC

[catzenmouse]

Add extra difficulties and feelings of isolation if they do not have confidence in their English abilities. Depending on what part of the country you live, the accent(s) of the locals, and their ability to accept and welcome a foreigner can and will make this even more difficult.

Ken

Durk,
Besides the obvious problems that come from the inability of the couple to communicate with each other, the lack of English skills also makes for a more difficult transition to the RW's new country.  Social isolation is one of the biggest problems in her transition and the bigger the language barrier, the more isolated she will feel.
KenC

[Bruce]

"I think the suggestions I would make for anyone right now would be to try and avoid the big cities, to not make a trip to meet just one girl, to try the agency thing in the smaller towns and to look through the agency posts here to see which agencies seem to have happy customers.  To avoid the big agency tours unless you want some hand holding for your first trip and to not give up no matter how frustrating it seems."

TG - seems like sound advice.   It does not apply to me since I'm one of the married to RW, but I hope it helps newer guys trying to sort things out for themselves.  I hope both your son and you have better luck on your future trips.   I'd like to hear your honest assessment of Jack's socials / dating extravaganza when you get back.

[Turboguy]

I will be happy to post that.  I don't really remember any detailed postings about Jacks tours.   Perhaps I just missed them.   Usually I don't do trip reports but I think this is one that could help someone.

I am glad you liked the advice.  I had some thoughts afterwards that I am not even sure I remember.   However one is to keep your expectations in check.   It is easy for someone to go over there and start feeling like they are Brad Pitt they get so much attention from the women.  If you are a typical person going that that is older you are not Brad Pitt.  If you go looking for a young "10" the only thing she is going to consider to be Brad Pitt about you is in your wallet.  I have stretched age.  I have stretched beauty.  I think you might do either but you won't succeed if you try to do both.  Usually about 2 notches better than what you can do here is about the target.  If you are lucky you might make 3.

If I looked for a few more suggestions. If there is no chemistry, run for the hills.  If something seems wrong or something seems fishy, don't write it off, run for the hills.   I may add some more later.  Right now I have to go visit Dracula.  (In case you think I mean my ex, no, I have to have my blood tested for the next few weeks after my hospital visit.)

[David1963]

T/G,

Re-read the facts, Leslie learned passable Russian, i.e., they had a common language.

JB, I appreciate you making my point for me.  The subject of this thread was about GOOD English.  A woman does not have to speak good English, just passable, enough for two people to communicate.  That level of English will vary depending on each persons ability to work on communication.  Part of my point is that if she doesn't speak good English, if she only speaks passable English how well will the two of you work at communication.  If two people work hard at it, then that shows how hard two people are willing to work in the relationship.  If you are not willing to work at communication and want the easy way out, then you might not work that hard at the other issues that come up in a relationship.

Like what has been said, many things will come up in the relationship that you will have to work at.  If you are not will to work with this one then you might not work on the others either.  You can look at this from two directions and can be right on either account.

[Jet]

David,
If I understood your original post correctly, the main point of it was:

I would think that if a man and women can sit down and struggle through communicating simple ideas to each other over a dictionary there would have to be a lot of dedication on the part of both of them.  I think that would be more meaningful than two people who sit there and spend a few hours easily talking about art history or whatever their interests are.

And I agreed with that assessment. Unfortunately, it was preceded by the opening which many got hung up on:

I would like to take the opposite stand and say that you don’t have to have that good of communication; actually, the lack of communication might even be better.  I have found that women and men generally don’t try to talk about who they are but rather who they want you to see them as.

However, I do have to disagree with your closing, as it implies vast instinctual knowledge that is most probably not there (as discussed at length earlier in the thread). I'll back that up by recalling words I heard a long time ago "Common sense is only common to those who share the same background." Russians and Americans definitely do not share the same background/upbringing therefore logic, mannerisms, and non-verbal communication will not be similar, and although too often AM will chalk bad behaviour up to "cultural differences" wrongly, there really are genuine differences between American culture and Russian culture.

I think the best communication people need to look at in this venture and many others is the non-verbal communication.  If a man HAS to be able to communicate with a women almost fluently and can’t understand a woman by her actions and mannerism then he is not going to be very successful at this no matter how well they can both speak to each other.   

[Daknack]

Without revealing too many details of my love life, Ive developed a very deep respect for the men that get married and do this.  And I am finding that the people that think that not knowing a common language is ok should be hit in the head with a brick.  The frustration, of knowing the works, putting the sentences together but still seeing in someones eyes the lack of understanding and confusion sucks.  And thats when she KNOWS the friggin language.  No English isnt 100% vital, but then you better learn Russian.  It frustrates me and I dont even deal with it that much, I can barely imagine doing it all day every day of the friggin year.  Its actually making me do double takes on the whole process.  Just living this makes it so obvious why people crash and burn so much, or why they can and do miss signs.  Think on this... do you know how inconvient it is to carry around a little book passing it back and forth over a crab dip (wha!  careful dont drop it in! [ps no that didnt happen])... and this is with a rather FLUENT english speaker.

To you married guys out there:  RESPECT.  Thats all I got.

[BC]

Daknack,

I always wondered how my father, who was a teacher could put up with all those kids day in and day out.

I asked him about it one day and he told me: "It's not teaching the masses that makes me happy in this job.. My true reward is one or two kids each year that truly absorb and are able to work with what I teach them."

I've read your posts for quite a while now and often shook my head thinking 'this is the last guy that will make it..'

By golly, I think you have absorbed.. this time 'Respect' goes to you.

[Daknack]

Daknack,

I always wondered how my father, who was a teacher could put up with all those kids day in and day out.

I asked him about it one day and he told me: "It's not teaching the masses that makes me happy in this job.. My true reward is one or two kids each year that truly absorb and are able to work with what I teach them."

I've read your posts for quite a while now and often shook my head thinking 'this is the last guy that will make it..'

By golly, I think you have absorbed.. this time 'Respect' goes to you.

Thanks man.  In the last 3 months Ive had alot of things going on.  Ive seen and done a ton of things, and for the first time in forever, I can see the matrix, and the haze is lifted.

Your dad I bet taught middle school, or high school.  Ive experianced a bit of what he talks about with the older kids.  The little ones want to be there badly.  Two totally different dynamics.  a little axiom of the teaching world:

The burden of education is on the student to learn, not the teacher to teach.

[BC]

Daknack,

You are right on the mark.. High School.

Even though I was in some of his classes I was not one of those few..

Some things take time..

Cheers!

[KenC]

Daknack,
I gotta agree with BC, you seem to be "getting it."  Better sooner than later, I might add!  Even though my wife would have been considered "fluent" in English when she arrived, it still took her time to "really" know the language and she is a super fast learner when it comes to language.  (She is currently learning French on her own)  The first year or two together was filled with miscommunication between us.  Finally we realized that if one of us said something that pissed the other off, it was probably a misunderstanding.  After that time, we spent a lot less time angry at each other.

Now that you are starting to "get it", I will let you in a a little secrete.  We old married bastards keep trying to knock the stars out of the eyes of the newbies that are put there by the agency hype.  It isn't that we enjoy being party poopers, but we sincerely want the newbies to understand that this is not for the weak of heart.  Once they "get it" like you do, only then can we tell them that all the trouble is well worth the effort.  There's nothing better on this planet than a good Russian woman!
KenC

[catzenmouse]

There's nothing better on this planet than a good Russian woman!

And that is a FACT!

This is a long, hard, patience ripping, frustrating, time consuming, expensive road to take. BUT, it is, in every sense of the words, Well Worth It!

Ken

[PeeWee]

Daknack,
I gotta agree with BC, you seem to be "getting it."  Better sooner than later, I might add!  Even though my wife would have been considered "fluent" in English when she arrived, it still took her time to "really" know the language and she is a super fast learner when it comes to language.  (She is currently learning French on her own)  The first year or two together was filled with miscommunication between us.  Finally we realized that if one of us said something that pissed the other off, it was probably a misunderstanding.  After that time, we spent a lot less time angry at each other.

Now that you are starting to "get it", I will let you in a a little secrete.  We old married bastards keep trying to knock the stars out of the eyes of the newbies that are put there by the agency hype.  It isn't that we enjoy being party poopers, but we sincerely want the newbies to understand that this is not for the weak of heart.  Once they "get it" like you do, only then can we tell them that all the trouble is well worth the effort.  There's nothing better on this planet than a good Russian woman!
KenC

I'm on board with this one. Scary but true. It makes compete sense to me as well.

Peewee

[Jack]

geeeez, I can't believe some of what I have read here.   ???

"you don’t have to have that good of communication; actually, the lack of communication might even be better."

The lack of communication might even be better?  Oh my, I think I have heard almost everything now.   

From some of the agency hype type KenC was referring to, In my opinion if the Russian lady you are meeting cannot speak at least a little English, and you can't speak some Russian, for the most part it's a complete waste of time. Their are exceptions to everything ofcourse and their are couples who have met and she spoke no English, he spoke no Russian, but these type events producing good relationships and marriages are extremely rare. The are the extreme exception, not the norm.

Most Russian ladies who have a real and sincere interest in marriage to a foreign man from the west know they are going to have to learn a little English and a great many of these ladies do. I have always wondered if a Russian lady is sincere and wanting to meet and marry a man from the west and she does not speak English, what is she waiting on? She's going to move to the states and not have to know English or what!

As I have mentioned before if a Russian woman only speaks a little English, if she tells you she speaks only a little English, it is often enough English. Most Russian women, being the perfectionist that they are, under-estimate their ability to speak English because they do not speak English daily and fear they do not have control of the English language and as such often will say they speak only a little English when in fact the little English they speak is enough to communicate without an interpreter.

In my opinion if you have to use an interpreter to meet Russian women, you got two strikes against you.

And yes I will be the first to say their are always exceptions, believe me I know. Sometimes we are going to run across that stunning beauty who appears to have a real interest in us. She smiles at you, holds your hand, interlocks her arm with yours when walking down the street, seems to have a real interest in you, and you in her, but she can't speak English. What do you do?  With these exceptions, and they should be the exception, you invest three months worth of English lessons. After two months you should be able to talk to her a little on the phone. And what an exciting conversation that is.            By the third month you should be able to meet each other, spend time with each other and not need an interpreter. Yea, you'll still need your little dictionary or electronic translator, but you'll also be able to communicate with each other and not needing that third person to translate everything.

[Jet]

And what an exciting conversation that is.            

LMAO! I still remember my first phone conversation w/ Lil (before we met)
I started out like this:
Her-"Al-lo?"
Me -"LeeLeeya? eta Jim,"
Her-"Daaa...uhh.....yesss...."
Me -"How are you?"
Her-"..............ffffffffffffffFFFFFF...iiiiinne......(deep exhale).....and.......yyyyyou?"

Finally we realized that if one of us said something that pissed the other off, it was probably a misunderstanding.  After that time, we spent a lot less time angry at each other.

Man, is that a happy bridge to cross! 

Once they "get it" like you do, only then can we tell them that all the trouble is well worth the effort.  There's nothing better on this planet than a good Russian woman!
KenC

Also agree! :angel: But beyond that, if you can't 'hold your own' in the harsh environment of the message boards, there's a pretty good chance that you're not gonna have what it takes when the environment REALLY gets harsh  . As much as some guys struggle with finding the girl, that is far and away they easiest part of the whole process.

[Turboguy]

Finally we realized that if one of us said something that pissed the other off, it was probably a misunderstanding.  After that time, we spent a lot less time angry at each other.

Hey, you can look at this thing the other way too.  If you can't understand each other you can't say anything that will piss the other off.

if you can't 'hold your own' in the harsh environment of the message boards, there's a pretty good chance that you're not gonna have what it takes when the environment REALLY gets harsh 

Ahh good.  That should give Photoguy, me and peewee an edge.  We can all use all the edge we can get.

It has been a little quiet here the last few days, I just figured I might as well liven things up a bit.

[PeeWee]

if you can't 'hold your own' in the harsh environment of the message boards, there's a pretty good chance that you're not gonna have what it takes when the environment REALLY gets harsh 

Ahh good.  That should give Photoguy, me and peewee an edge.  We can all use all the edge we can get.

It has been a little quiet here the last few days, I just figured I might as well liven things up a bit.

Peewee? I'm doing ok. I haven't let any of the gay beards or pickle packers get to me yet. What happened to Photoguy anyway? I'm just sitting here waiting for an email to arrive from the travel agent in Russia who is supposed to let me know how much to pay them for Lena's airfare and the hotel in Prague.

Speaking of harsh, get this. A couple of days ago Lena emailed me telling me that the agency wanted me to send to her the money for the tour via Western Union because the cash was more convient for them. She would then pay the agency for the tour. I have not yet met this lady so....RED FLAG! I sent an email back to her that said, "No way. It's paid by Visa or no tour." I was that blunt about it. Today the visa is apparently ok with the agency. No fricking way that I am sending cash to anywhere in Russia...not even to Rootin Tootin and Lootin' Putin himself!

Peewee   

[andrewfi]

Speaking of harsh, get this. A couple of days ago Lena emailed me telling me that the agency wanted me to send to her the money for the tour via Western Union because the cash was more convient for them. She would then pay the agency for the tour. I have not yet met this lady so....RED FLAG! I sent an email back to her that said, "No way. It's paid by Visa or no tour." I was that blunt about it. Today the visa is apparently ok with the agency. No fricking way that I am sending cash to anywhere in Russia...not even to Rootin Tootin and Lootin' Putin himself!

Another driverless car.

[jb]

Another driverless car.

More like a runaway freight train...   

[Bruno]

Most Russian ladies who have a real and sincere interest in marriage to a foreign man from the west know they are going to have to learn a little English and a great many of these ladies do. I have always wondered if a Russian lady is sincere and wanting to meet and marry a man from the west and she does not speak English, what is she waiting on? She's going to move to the states and not have to know English or what!

Is the West make only from USA ?

If a Russian lady is sincere and wanting to meet and marry a man from the west, she can maybe find a man who speak German, Dutch, French, Spanish, Italian, Danish, Swedish, etc ... How in the hell she will know from where is  coming her beloved... American are almost 50% of the people using the MOB business, don't forget the other 50%...

Of course, if she seek a country and not a husband, she will learn the language of these target country...

[Jet]

Is the West make only from USA ?

If a Russian lady is sincere and wanting to meet and marry a man from the west, she can maybe find a man who speak German, Dutch, French, Spanish, Italian, Danish, Swedish, etc ... How in the hell she will know from where is  coming her beloved... American are almost 50% of the people using the MOB business, don't forget the other 50%...

Of course, if she seek a country and not a husband, she will learn the language of these target country...

Bruno,
My wife started learning English 3 1/2 years before we met online, she had no intention of getting married again when she decided to learn another language. In her words: " I chose English because it is the international language of the business world and I wanted to learn it well enough to teach my son, so he could have a brighter future with more opportunities than the others in my town."

So, why did you learn English? Did you have a strong desire to marry a sexy 150kg "American Princess" and become a GreenCardGuy? 

[Bruno]

Bruno,
My wife started learning English 3 1/2 years before we met online, she had no intention of getting married again when she decided to learn another language. In her words: " I chose English because it is the international language of the business world and I wanted to learn it well enough to teach my son, so he could have a brighter future with more opportunities than the others in my town."

My first russian wife have choose to learn French at school... in the time of communism and before, French was learn by a lot of Russian... About business, several russian learn German... commercial relation between Russia and Germany are strong... My actual girlfriend have learn German and English due to her interpreter formation...

So, why did you learn English? Did you have a strong desire to marry a sexy 150kg "American Princess" and become a GreenCardGuy? 

I have learn English at the university... in these time, almost all book over programming and computer was in English... I have learn Dutch in cafe, it was the only way for speak with the guys with who i was sharing some beer...

PS: I don't think that all American women are 150 kg... i have see enough babe when i was in Galverston and Houston... And i don't think that only the Texas state have beautiful girls... 

[andrewfi]

1) English is taught to most kids at school and has been for many, many years.
2) Most foreign facing marriage agencies, both local and international (but not all) use English as a primary language.
3) If a sensible woman, open as to destination, was to choose a single language to brush up on which language would it be? Again, English.

It is likely that, on aggregate, there are more women marrying guys whose first language is not English than otherwise, but most of those guys will have English as a decent backup.

It would be a strange girl who, having been taught English at school and university, would choose, for example, Spanish ab initio if she were practical about the matter of destination. It would also suggest something to the guy that if a woman had chosen to deal only with  the Spanish, French or whatever in marital affairs that the woman was to a fairly large degree making choice of destination before choice of man.

[Bruno]

2) Most foreign facing marriage agencies, both local and international (but not all) use English as a primary language.

English as primary language for men, for these who pay for information  ... but a lot of site have a registration page for women make in Russian language... some more modern site adapt automaticely to the language of the visitor...

Now, since the IMBRA, all is more easy... you have the American market and the rest of the world 

[Jet]

Your arguments are making my point! You posted:

Of course, if she seek a country and not a husband, she will learn the language of these target country...

I gave a specific example of why a RW might choose to learn the most widely used langauge in the world, for reasons other than a GreenCard
Then you backed it up with several personal experiences of your own (yourself and your girlfriend, the interpreter)

Like your Russian wife, I also took French in school for several years, though I had no intention of ever moving to Belgium, Canada, or France.

Like it or not, English IS the #1 language worldwide.