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Author Topic: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?  (Read 9975 times)

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Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #200 on: May 07, 2019, 03:58:56 PM »
Why would you apply the U.K. legal system and laws to Ukraine?

Either you are very arrogant or very stupid.

I'm not saying I would apply the laws, just how land/building/property is described in the UK. That is where I am coming from, time it sounds a bit bizzare to call a masonry built cottage as agricultural land.
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Offline SteveInBoston

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #201 on: May 07, 2019, 04:10:41 PM »
Sorrry to tell you that 25000 UAH is not paid for a normal job, even in Kharkov.
The normal wage in Ukraine for non Kiev citizen is between 100 and 500$. 500$ is already considered as a good paycheck (not in the capital).

You should also take care of the fact that a lot of ukrainian people will not tell you their real income or will give false datas, because they are very proud.
Remember : the Ukrane's GDP ranking is very low. And between 2009 and 2019 the UAH has dropped of nearly 300%. A lot of people are litteraly surviving and struggling. Many cannot pay the gas now, and last time i was in Dnipro in november the city hall hadn't allowed the heater to be swicth on. The girl with whom i was, working for the council of a 30000 people city told me that they had many people who couldn't afford their gaz bills.

Sorry to tell you Pat that her friends do make about 25,000 UAH per month.  I am not sure why you would disagree?  It is what they make, not by me asking directly but by asking about it to my wife and observing their lifestyles - 2 weeks on a tour package to northern Italy in November and 2 weeks at a resort in Egypt in February.

Also, currency depreciation would not affect how much someone makes in UAH.

Let's take an Uber driver, for example.  Short trips are 100 UAH, long trips 300-400.  Let's say a driver averages, on the low side, 2 short trips an hour - 200 UAH.  If they work 200 hours a month, then it's 40,000 UAH.  1/2 is for gas, maintenance and fees.   So 20,000 UAH a month for an uber driver (in cities like Kyiv, Odessa and Kharkiv).  If he can get 4 fares an hour, then it's 40,000 UAH.

If you rely on government data, then it counts pensioners like my mother-in-law who gets 6500 UAH a month, which lowers the average income data.

Realistically there are many Ukrainians who earn $100-$400/month.  But for this discussion, which was about TC or another expat that wants to live in Ukraine and be seen as a rich westerner, 500 GBP/month would not cut it at all.

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #202 on: May 07, 2019, 04:21:08 PM »
here's an example of me building on three consecutively purchased adjacent dacha properties in Crimea (a long time ago)
and building a "house" on it of local materials
total cost of three dacahas of 20 sotek each plus construction materials and all legal paperwork was $40,000
prices would be about the same today
I did some of the plumbing and electrical work myself
had a fireplace plus cooking pit, 3 floors, garage, outbuildings
added a swimming pool that the 19 yr blond neighbor (shown in the photo below) would swim in every day, au natural of course, just so I'd pay attention and speak English to her
whenever she knew my wife wasn't around she would just "tease" the hell out of me by "skinny dipping" in the pool
I would just pretend like it was nothing and eventually moved to handing her a towel to dry off
to handing her a towel to dry off and take the towel pat down more and more each time...
but that's as far as it went...


pics, of course
I have since gifted this property to relatives
and no longer own property in Crimea
 
 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 04:33:29 PM by krimster2 »

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #203 on: May 07, 2019, 04:27:43 PM »
Sorry to tell you Pat that her friends do make about 25,000 UAH per month.  I am not sure why you would disagree?  It is what they make, not by me asking directly but by asking about it to my wife and observing their lifestyles - 2 weeks on a tour package to northern Italy in November and 2 weeks at a resort in Egypt in February.

Also, currency depreciation would not affect how much someone makes in UAH.

Let's take an Uber driver, for example.  Short trips are 100 UAH, long trips 300-400.  Let's say a driver averages, on the low side, 2 short trips an hour - 200 UAH.  If they work 200 hours a month, then it's 40,000 UAH.  1/2 is for gas, maintenance and fees.   So 20,000 UAH a month for an uber driver (in cities like Kyiv, Odessa and Kharkiv).  If he can get 4 fares an hour, then it's 40,000 UAH.

If you rely on government data, then it counts pensioners like my mother-in-law who gets 6500 UAH a month, which lowers the average income data.

Realistically there are many Ukrainians who earn $100-$400/month.  But for this discussion, which was about TC or another expat that wants to live in Ukraine and be seen as a rich westerner, 500 GBP/month would not cut it at all.

By all accounts Uber has been squeezing it all though higher fares/fees recently around the world as they look to turn a profit from a loss making enterprise so far for them. I've had taxi rides with a local girl calling up and also Uber rides for as little as 30 UAH, sometimes 50 or 80 UAH. I don't think they will earn that much after all expenses and waiting around are accounted for.

I don't think 25000 UAH/£722 a month is typical, some no doubt get that but they will be at the top end. If she runs a business then she likely makes more than a lot of Ukrainians. It all depends on what resources a person has open to them and how much they want to put into making money. I think people that are in an upper earning strata though not necessarily the top earning strata will hang around often/mostly with those of a similar socio-economic strata. So I don't think you're wrong Steve, it's just the perspective of the socio-economic strata from who you are with.
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Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #204 on: May 07, 2019, 04:36:49 PM »
here's an example of me building on three consecutively purchased adjacent dacha properties in Crimea (a long time ago)
and building a "house" on it of local materials
total cost of three dacahas of 20 sotek each plus construction materials and all legal paperwork was $40,000
prices would be about the same today
I did some of the plumbing and electrical work myself
had a fireplace plus cooking pit, 3 floors, garage, outbuildings
added a swimming pool that the 18 yr blond neighbor would swim in every day, au natural of course, just so I'd pay attention and speak English to her

pics, of course
I have since gifted this property to relatives
and no longer own property in Crimea

That's done amazingly cheaply for such a big building Krim, in the UK it would cost way more, not including the cost of the land. I'm guessing you changed it to to relatives on your wife's side to avoid the foreigner thing.

My only other thought is buying property in Moldova, it had EU association, they don't sell agricultural land to foreigners but thinking maybe urban buildings might be ok.

Other than that only other option I can think of is Romania as part of the EU I'm guessing it would be sound enough there perhaps.
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Offline SteveInBoston

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #205 on: May 07, 2019, 04:39:49 PM »
Believe in what you want.  I don't need to believe because I lived it.  It's like believing in a table - it's there, it's a table - why believe in it?  I posted data from my 2 months in Ukraine, for yours or anyone's reference.   

When you travel, and you have new data, please share.  Udachi.


Offline Boethius

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #206 on: May 07, 2019, 05:00:10 PM »
Salaries depend very much on the region.  Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Odesa are far, far above the national average.  In Western Ukraine, I know someone who was offered a sales job for the equivalent of 10 cents a day (which she didn't take).  That is why so many Western Ukrainians work abroad.


Official salaries also don't tell the whole picture.  People often are paid under the table, or by bonuses.  But those official salary statistics don't include pensioners.


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Online Patagonie

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #207 on: May 07, 2019, 05:05:34 PM »
Sorry to tell you Pat that her friends do make about 25,000 UAH per month.  I am not sure why you would disagree?  It is what they make, not by me asking directly but by asking about it to my wife and observing their lifestyles - 2 weeks on a tour package to northern Italy in November and 2 weeks at a resort in Egypt in February.

Also, currency depreciation would not affect how much someone makes in UAH.

Let's take an Uber driver, for example.  Short trips are 100 UAH, long trips 300-400.  Let's say a driver averages, on the low side, 2 short trips an hour - 200 UAH.  If they work 200 hours a month, then it's 40,000 UAH.  1/2 is for gas, maintenance and fees.   So 20,000 UAH a month for an uber driver (in cities like Kyiv, Odessa and Kharkiv).  If he can get 4 fares an hour, then it's 40,000 UAH.

If you rely on government data, then it counts pensioners like my mother-in-law who gets 6500 UAH a month, which lowers the average income data.

Realistically there are many Ukrainians who earn $100-$400/month.  But for this discussion, which was about TC or another expat that wants to live in Ukraine and be seen as a rich westerner, 500 GBP/month would not cut it at all.
I do agree that 500 GBP is not enough to live in FSU, maybe if you are owning a flat. I already told to Trench that he is too short for such adventure.

I don't say that friends of your fiancee are not capable to afford such travels, i am just saying that they are probably at least in the top 10%  of the ukrainian society. (you need to know that trips paid in FSU are at least 30% minimum less expansive than in the western side. Read my trip and you will know that i made one in Italy, entirely from the FSU with only ukrainian people in the bus).


Maybee your mother in law gets 6500 UAH but that's not the standard pension which is largely less than 100$. (it starts at 60$).
A lot of drivers don't own their car, and i have been friend with one who finished broken (but more probably because he was owning a SUV rather than a Lada). If they have a loan on  a car they have crazy interest rate or they have to give back to some close friends or family (and it will work both ways a day or another, with some interest in return).

Yes UAH devaluation is hitting the ones who have a loan for appartment or car expressed in $ as it is generally done, I met two women in this case in 2009 and 2018.. Of course it makes imported things more expansive. It makes their travel abroad largely more expensive.  The only good  thing is that it makes more money for everyone who has someone working outside Ukraine sending them $ or €.

You should spent more time to discuss with different people and go to read some hiring sites (in russian only) to get a better picture.
For example : an individual english lesson in the neighboring of a big ukrainian city (not Kiev) with a certified professor (from Canada, but ukrainian), it's 5$. Do the math, and you have to pay the rental of the school (not cheap), heating, electricity, computer, chairs, tables, and after (one year i think, Bo could tell us more on this), you have to pay taxes because you are only exempted the first year or the first months.
You would ask me how do you know that's 5 $, because the professor told me that is the maximum she can ask if she want to have a chance to have some students coming. (there are some competition in this area).

I had, for years, the same optimistic vision of the ukrainian economy, but more i spent time there with locals, and more i have become realistic.

I have actually two russian teachers teaching me online. I am quite in very good friendship with one. She is a very kind lady and i have a lot of respect for her. I guess she earns maximum maximum 2000$ with her husband, probably less. And he has a job which brings good money (computing). They travel for short duration (few days) abroad one, maximum twice a year (without the two children). They live four of the family in less than 55 m2. We can consider that they belong to the middle class. Just the problem is that the ukrainian middle class if few pourcent only. But the richest are numerous at least as the western ones.

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Offline Boethius

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #208 on: May 07, 2019, 05:10:41 PM »
Quote
Maybee your mother in law gets 6500 UAH but that's not the standard pension which is largely less than 100$. (it starts at 60$).


Many pensions in rural regions are US$30.

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Offline JayH

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #209 on: May 07, 2019, 06:00:54 PM »
I am more inline with Steve than others here.
A few ad hoc pieces-
The average retirement payment in Kiev reached 3,289 hryvnia  ( late 2018)
Some pensions are over 10,000 per month
It was only in 2018 that the minimum amount of pension was lifted to 1,452 hryvnia . On average, retirees from the western part of Ukraine get only this minimum payment.
12,000,000 people are on payments--   2/3rds on on minimum

There are increases  in the pipeline.
 None of that is to say that pensions are anywhere near adequate.

On incomes -- reality is they are still low -- but---  but-- but-- there are more and more people earning well above these stated average incomes.
For those stuck on thinking that the big plus for western guys is economic advantage -- you are coming at this the wrong way. FULL STOP. :wallbash:


An example of income-- recently on forum a guy was asked to shell out for dance lessons-- that are generally sold as a bloc of say 8 X 100 = 800  for say 2 weeks. Multiply by  10 in class( can easily be way more) and the teacher/promoter is generating   say UAH4000 per week plus or UAH16000 a month --less costs etc Then throw in the potential for eg  4 groups per day = UAH 64000  per month

That is a real life example I am quoting above  of a girl who runs her own show !

Example 2 -- is a girl who actually does the above dance classes  -- and -- works as an instructor at a gym taking( teaching) aerobic classes herself  . Working 3 days a week - she earns UAH 1000  per day on the books doing at least 4 classes - sometimes more.  She is paid a decent amount more in cash.

One particular irk I have in Ukraine -- is the day/s off every week when business has a no atm day/s and takes cash only. This seems to happen everywhere from one man business to very large supermarket chains --it does not require a genius to understand why .The net result is that the black economy is larger than the numbers in the official stats !~

The point I am making here is that there is more money than is apparent floating around.






« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 06:26:33 PM by JayH »
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Online krimster2

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #210 on: May 07, 2019, 06:59:47 PM »
so the minimum pension works out to $51 per month, and you can bet there are plenty of people who get the minimum or 2-3 times minimum...
not everyone is part of the "gig economy" most people are salaried workers making under $1000 per month...
even a professional couple in high tech or finance have a tough time supporting a family on a combined income of under $2,000 per month
it is a fortunate English speaking software engineer who can make $2,000/month in Kyiv
some of them work for me...

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #211 on: May 07, 2019, 07:03:26 PM »
I am more inline with Steve than others here.
A few ad hoc pieces-
The average retirement payment in Kiev reached 3,289 hryvnia  ( late 2018)
Some pensions are over 10,000 per month
It was only in 2018 that the minimum amount of pension was lifted to 1,452 hryvnia . On average, retirees from the western part of Ukraine get only this minimum payment.
12,000,000 people are on payments--   2/3rds on on minimum

There are increases  in the pipeline.
 None of that is to say that pensions are anywhere near adequate.

On incomes -- reality is they are still low -- but---  but-- but-- there are more and more people earning well above these stated average incomes.
For those stuck on thinking that the big plus for western guys is economic advantage -- you are coming at this the wrong way. FULL STOP. :wallbash:


An example of income-- recently on forum a guy was asked to shell out for dance lessons-- that are generally sold as a bloc of say 8 X 100 = 800  for say 2 weeks. Multiply by  10 in class( can easily be way more) and the teacher/promoter is generating   say UAH4000 per week plus or UAH16000 a month --less costs etc Then throw in the potential for eg  4 groups per day = UAH 64000  per month

That is a real life example I am quoting above  of a girl who runs her own show !

Example 2 -- is a girl who actually does the above dance classes  -- and -- works as an instructor at a gym taking( teaching) aerobic classes herself  . Working 3 days a week - she earns UAH 1000  per day on the books doing at least 4 classes - sometimes more.  She is paid a decent amount more in cash.

One particular irk I have in Ukraine -- is the day/s off every week when business has a no atm day/s and takes cash only. This seems to happen everywhere from one man business to very large supermarket chains --it does not require a genius to understand why .The net result is that the black economy is larger than the numbers in the official stats !~

The point I am making here is that there is more money than is apparent floating around.

I'll have you know I was personally feeding the local Babushka's bread crumbs, nuts and other bird feed in the park when I was last in Ukraine. Their gratitude at my tossing my offerings on the ground for them to gobble up was only marred by the pidgeons they had to compete with :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 07:56:24 PM by Trenchcoat »
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #212 on: May 07, 2019, 07:06:10 PM »
The average retirement payment in Kiev reached 3,289 hryvnia  ( late 2018)
Some pensions are over 10,000 per month


I have a lot of pensioners in Kyiv in the family.  Not one has a pension over 3,000 hyrvnia per month, and they all worked to retirement age,  full time.  Pensions range from 1500 hryvnia (retired nurse) to 3,000 hyrvnia.


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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #213 on: May 07, 2019, 07:31:20 PM »
Trench,
no one in their right mind, makes fun of baboshka's...no one....

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #214 on: May 07, 2019, 07:34:59 PM »

   Pensions range from 1500 hryvnia (retired nurse) to 3,000 hyrvnia.
How can anyone live on less than $60 a month?


 
 
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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #215 on: May 07, 2019, 07:53:08 PM »
Here is a couple of videos from the many available.
Sergy does a fine job explaining the "modern" plumbing!








Correct me if I'm wrong but it appears as though Babushka is running in a field of Marijuana.
Maybe that's why she is 'stepping lively'.


Blast it!  I can't seem to get the video to copy.


« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 07:57:06 PM by Steamer »
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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #216 on: May 07, 2019, 08:01:13 PM »
Trench,
no one in their right mind, makes fun of baboshka's...no one....

Yeah, I wouldn't do if I was standing with them, some of them can be quite scary. Every so often I stray across a more softer one that doesn't make me want to run fast.
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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #217 on: May 07, 2019, 10:08:30 PM »



Correct me if I'm wrong but it appears as though Babushka is running in a field of Marijuana.
Maybe that's why she is 'stepping lively'.


Blast it!  I can't seem to get the video to copy.



I didn't notice it before, but you seem to be correct. LOL  I will have to keep a closer eye on those Babushkas!!!
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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #218 on: May 07, 2019, 11:11:58 PM »



Official salaries also don't tell the whole picture.  People often are paid under the table, or by bonuses.  But those official salary statistics don't include pensioners.



I met a woman in Kiev that told me the same. Before she told me this she said her job was "dangerous." I asked her "how could a job as an economist be dangerous?" She said that her fear was the tax police would show up someday and that would be it for her. Her employer pays her $1500 a month in cash for sticking her neck out.


She also said her ex-husband was very wealthy. He worked in customs. Ukraine is corrupt as all hell. Corruption got cleaned up in Georgia. I got to hand to Saakashvili for that. Corruption was so bad in Georgia the people demanded reform, and they got it. Georgia is paradise for doing business in comparison to Russia or Ukraine. Other than Slavic women I don't see the attraction for men to those places. 

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #219 on: May 07, 2019, 11:17:10 PM »
How can anyone live on less than $60 a month?


They live with relatives and mostly eat the food grown at the family dacha or bought from one of the babushkas sitting on a stoop.

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #220 on: May 08, 2019, 12:08:09 AM »

They live with relatives and mostly eat the food grown at the family dacha or bought from one of the babushkas sitting on a stoop.

I think this is more likely the answer for most. I think a lot will depend on circumstance. Some will have access to more lucrative opportunities, but not that many will. For most the answer will be more mundane as we have here or worse they will struggle and suffer. It all depends on their support network and opportunities they come across I think. Some sit out as room stewards in museums. At Porokovo Open Air Folk Museum I and the girl I was with came across an old Babushka selling tree sap water in large plastic bottles and selling them to visitors in the wood. Somewhere around 30 UAH a time. The girl I was with after speaking to her told me it was to supplement her income. She didn't look well off and of course only had the occasional visitor she came across. Still it no doubt was better getting a bit of extra income than nothing I guess. We got a couple of bottles but later chucked it as the water later went a bit misty so didn't want to chance it.
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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #221 on: May 08, 2019, 12:21:53 AM »
OMG

Trench is now an 'expert' on Grandmothers in the FSU..

I hope your board persona is just a front...


You will not last long enough with any lass to meet her Grandmother..

« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 05:51:16 AM by msmob »
No to Brexit, Yes to a People's Vote on Brexit, THEN a General Election

Offline SteveInBoston

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #222 on: May 08, 2019, 05:39:23 AM »


Many pensions in rural regions are US$30.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

I misspoke about the pension - 6500UAH is my father-in-law's pension - he was a mine director before he retired.  Mother-in-law gets 1700.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #223 on: May 08, 2019, 03:16:07 PM »
How can anyone live on less than $60 a month?


That particular relative has a husband, so they manage.  But even a pension of 3,000 hyrvnia is pretty difficult to live on.  2/3 to 3/4 of that pension would be used for utilities.  They often sit in almost darkness, and only heat apartments intermittently.  In villages, I've seen old women at the rivers, gathering wood to burn.  In cities, the pensioner eats a lot of potatoes, buys half a dozen eggs at a time, and cans foods in summer for winter.  Some rely on other family for additional aid, as was noted.


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To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline Darth_Budda

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Re: Anyone else here thinking of/dreaming of living in the FSU?
« Reply #224 on: May 26, 2019, 08:24:13 PM »
Yes,,,,   when we are old,,,  I will build a small house and garage for a Lada 2106, Gaz 2410 and some type of Audi for the wife...

Thats the dream... 
We need a government of action to fight for working families!
Caleb Maupin

 

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