Why RW marry abroad?

[TexasBoar]

TexasBoar ~ I would disagree a little, in one respect and urge to to consider the realities in another. In US and Western Europe most women earn almost the same as men in equivalent fields. In the US and Western Europe there is a deal of social support to women who have family and no 'man' in their lives. This means that the imperative to 'marry up' is, whilst still a factor, much reduced. Just look at recent US history to see this effect.

Your point is well taken, Andrew, but---as a longtime veteran of American internet dating, I can assure you that "marrying up" expectations are quite alive and well, lol.  How many AW who list their own income as, say, 25-35K on a site like Yahoo Singles or Match.com list a comparable income in their preferences? Most, no matter what their listed income, state quite plainly that they're looking for men who make significantly more than they do . . . frequently twice as much as a minimum.

And then there's all the usual male "bait" we all use, which many AW also list in their profiles as among their "interests" . . . what are things like Harleys, sailboats, sports cars, adventure travel, trips to Vegas and so forth besides lots of fun? Income signifiers.  

I don't disagree that economic motivations must surely rank at or near the top for RW. I'm just thinking that the "playing field" being somewhat level (disregarding the fabled trailer park denizens doing this on soon-to-be-maxed-out credit cards) surely that's more of a "ticket to the show?"  Naturally, one can find someone desperate enough, here OR there, that it would be the ONLY consideration, but ordinarily, women everywhere still need to be won.  

Except the ones that just need paid, yes.  But those arrangements are generally presented as temporary!  

~Boar

[Turboguy]

Good post boar.  I have had two gals tell me they had no interest in marrying a rich man.  They just wanted a nice ordinary life.   Luda was one of the two and told me she always wanted to marry a poor man.  I have to admit I questioned her sanity at times and that statement does not sound to sane to me.  Wanting a poor man is a lot different than falling in love with someone who happens to be poor.

I think it is an individual thing.  Like my friend from Michigan who married a gal I hooked him up with is very happy with an average life.  They are thrilled because they just got a new home, a double wide actually.  The only problem is that they got one of the cheaper ones and are having some problems with it.  They seem to be one of the happiest of the AM RW couples I know.  Money isn't everything.

Personally when I am chasing a gal, I do my best to downplay anything I might have or at least not to emphasize it.  I am not looking for a gal who is only looking for money.

[Gator]

Most women have multiple reasons, and Doug’s lucid elaboration (economic security) is probably the most common among them.   It is not the sole reason, however, and in many cases not the primary reason.  Sadly, love is not the primary reason either.

Andrew has been chatting up the wrong women to think it is “all” about the money.  I have no experience with Russia’s equivalent of a Walmart cashier, and Andrew may be correct about them.   For the educated and sophisticated woman, there are other reasons and he knows it.   It is late Saturday night and Andrew has been in the sauce. 

So what drives a woman to list herself with an agency with the thought of marrying a foreign man who is a stranger in so many ways?  Many of these agency women could date Russian men with American-level incomes (and many do).

When you get to know the women....really get to know them....their reasons become apparent and so compelling.  And infrequently is it about a man’s money. In my opinion, the attitudes of Russian men and the constraints of Russian society are the drivers for the more intelligent women.  My examples over four years:

Definitely not about the money -  45, good looking, intelligent, fun-loving, makes $3,000 per month.  She lives well.  She does not want to date below her class.   All bachelors her age or older with money “chase” (i. e., “sponsor”) women in their 20s (and there are plenty of 20-somethings to go around).  Add to this, she has a young teenager, and most Russian men do not welcome another man’s child.

A similar case – 41, saved money from her modeling career to own nice apartment, and now making $700/month in a remote city.  She lives comfortably, enjoys Russian men but will not marry another one because of their attitude towards her young child, the lack of “Pravda”, their propensity for adultery, and not being able to trust that they will be there when she needs them.  That last one says it all. 

Freedom - Another woman is oppressed by her ex-husband.  He is a public prosecutor who became rich in that job (you can figure it out).  He is malicious and makes her life miserable at times.

Opportunity - Doctor, 31, without children, became a cosmetologist to support herself.  She wants to practice medicine. 

Too old?! – gorgeous, early 30s.  Ran with the fast crowd in her 20s and has now become too old for the Ruskie requiring gravity-defying breasts. 

And my favorite -  31, has seen firsthand the freedoms and opportunities in Europe and America for women her age.   She is smart and wants to do something with her life.   Russian society constrains her, so she seeks a man who will take her to those opportunities.  He does not have to be rich, but willing to help her get started (or at least not get in her way).  She does not want his money – she is driven to make her own money.  God protect him if he tries to make her stay at home and have children.  Love is not high on her list (someday maybe, but not now).

[Muj]

Well analyze the 5 basic needs of the women.  Most comment that at least the two are missing in the FSU.  Reasonable request from the woman.

[BillyB]

Most women, including FSU women, aren't going to marry the first man they see just because he has money. She is also looking for a man who has decent looks in her eyes, personality, character, similiar hobbies,goals and interests. If all she cares about is money, then she's a hooker. Don't tell me, I know some guys out there think all women are hookers, some short term, others long term.

[PeeWee]

Over the past few years I made a survey of FSU dating sites : I came up with some 450+ sites listing a total of almost 1,300,000 FSUW profiles, which would account roughly for 1% of the FSU female population (details at http://www.floriani.it/sitirussi/elencositi-eng.htm)

Is 1% a tiny percent? From that remove the scammers, double, triple, and quadruple listing, the one's that married a RM and stayed and did not remove her profile and now what is your percent?

peewee

[PeeWee]

Your point is well taken, Andrew, but---as a longtime veteran of American internet dating, I can assure you that "marrying up" expectations are quite alive and well, lol.  How many AW who list their own income as, say, 25-35K on a site like Yahoo Singles or Match.com list a comparable income in their preferences? Most, no matter what their listed income, state quite plainly that they're looking for men who make significantly more than they do . . . frequently twice as much as a minimum.



~Boar

Marrying up is alive and well in the US. It happens often. The marrying up is not for economical reasons but for beauty reasons. The man marries when his income is lower and since women are, by in large, attracted to both money and power he gets what he can afford at that time. As his income grows and perhaps his power as well he can now look back over a broader range of available females. All he has to do is tag one who is both younger and better looking and if he can afford her then that is when he trades up. A young and attractive woman seeking a secure financial base is attracted to the older and more wealthy man. He attracted to her youth and beauty. Think Anna Nicole Smith. Michael Douglas. And thousands of no names who did the same.

Peewee

[Gator]

I keep reading posts that mention "younger and prettier."  If all a man wants is something younger and prettier, then he deserves the woman that Andrew described.  In fact, they deserve each other.  I sure hope that I never have to attend one of their dinner parties.

[SANDRO43]

Is 1% a tiny percent? From that remove the scammers, double, triple, and quadruple listing, the one's that married a RM and stayed and did not remove her profile and now what is your percent?

Answered in my reply to TG's subsequent post. Your guess is as good as mine, and it would take a lot of effort to pinpoint an accurate figure.

Anyway, whether they be 300,000 or 1,300,000 or any number inbetween, I think its is a significantly substantial phenomenon, if you remove from the total female population the older component, those living in remote areas with no Internet access, those currently married, Muslims (VERY few on MOB sites), etc. etc.  

[BillyB]

I agree with Sandro that there is a significant amount of women putting themselves up for marriage to foreign men. I suspect more would list themselves if they were available and able as in not underage, knew how to use a computer, had the means to communicate with men on a regular basis, or weren't embarrassed about the fact of communicating through the internet.

I rarely see anyone marrying way out of league. If you look at the success photos at agencies, the men and women are matched up well looks wise. Only in socials do we see lot's of mismatches but the guy never lands the hottie. Some good looking women are not going to marry an ugly foreign man just because he has money so money is not the only motivation. I suspect most hot looking RW end up marrying a local man anyway.

[Muj]

Hot woman or not, only 1% of the women actually marry foreign guys due to the limited number of foreign guys.  Politicians in the Russian goverment actually propose legislation to prevent RW from leaving to marry foreign men.  The best and brightest are many the ones that marry abroad.  I agree BillyB, the women want a decent looking guy.

[PeeWee]

I keep reading posts that mention "younger and prettier."  If all a man wants is something younger and prettier, then he deserves the woman that Andrew described.  In fact, they deserve each other.  I sure hope that I never have to attend one of their dinner parties.

By in large is this not what is happening? What is the age difference between the guys who post here and their wives/girlfriends? Is that age difference more significant, the same, or is it less significant than an AM/AW or UKM/UKW is? I see the photos of these guys and and thier wives/girlfriends. Based on that observation it would be hard to convice me that they did not hesitate to play the younger/prettier card. Nothing wrong with that either.

Peewee

[TexasBoar]

Lots of women grow up being told "it's just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor man."

Seems only fair for a guy to tell himself "it's just as easy to fall in love with a young hot chick as an old ugly woman."   

~Boar

[Turboguy]

By in large is this not what is happening? What is the age difference between the guys who post here and their wives/girlfriends? Is that age difference more significant, the same, or is it less significant than an AM/AW or UKM/UKW is? I see the photos of these guys and and thier wives/girlfriends. Based on that observation it would be hard to convice me that they did not hesitate to play the younger/prettier card. Nothing wrong with that either.

Peewee

Hey, if you can do it why not.  I had quit dating AW but got awful tired having nothing to do but argue with the OMB's so I decided to get at least a bit of a life until I get a good prospect.  The AW I am dating is 44.  The RW I contact now range from 35 to 52.  For me the age difference is not there.  I will have to admit the RW are thinner and prettier than the AW.

Most guys are only human.  If they can get a young pretty gal they are going to go for it.  I agree, nothing wrong with that either.

[Doug S]

I lived in Japan as a kid (military brat). I speak a little Japanese and I love the culture and the food.

When I entertained the idea of looking for a foreign wife eight years ago, I bought a gold or platinum (or some precious metal) membership to an agency called "kiss.com" in Seattle.  (I think they have either gone out of business or changed a lot since then.) They did not deal in the profiles of just women from FSU countries. They had the profiles of women from all over the world.

I bought the precious metal package because on my first run through the site, using their shopping-cart type device, after browsing the babes for about two hours and book marking the ones I liked - I had picked something like 50! Buying their addresses individually was going to add up. I knew I wanted to write to them all. I had already decided that this time, because marriage is serious shit and this wan not going to be just dating it was going to be for m-a-r-r-i-a-g-e,  I was going to start very wide and vet as many women as possible. (Prior to that I had just stupidly fallen in love with the first good-looking young American woman that encouraged me to.)

So I did the math, found the break-even point for the precious metal membership was something like 30 addresses, and went for the gold (or platinum, or whatever the hell it was). That gave me unlimited addresses for a month or something crazy like that. I guess, theoretically, you could send letters to all nineteen million women in their dada base.

But I only clicked off a hundred. (And I ended up getting letters off to only about 75 of those. I hand-wrote and customized each letter for each woman, so it was slow going.)

Anyway, one of the women I wrote to was in Indonesia, one was in Brazil, three were in Colombia, one was in China, one was in Vietnam, and one was in Japan. They were all great-looking, but the Japanese girl was really memorable. So was the Chinese girl. They were like super-model quality. And very highly educated. Maybe some kind of Asian debutantes. I remember thinking they were out of my league - probably looking for wealthy American sugar-daddies. But I wrote to them anyway, thinking what the hell; maybe one of 'em has a thing for "bad boy" surf paupers, you never know.

I got replies from Indo, Brazil, Colombia and Vietnam, but radio silence from the two debutantes. Zip, zero, nada. Nichi vo. Their loss, ha-ha.

[andrewfi]

TG, 1,300,000 is a gross figure of PROFILES on FSUW sites for non-FSUM, and yes, I am aware that many FSUW post multiple profiles to increase their exposure (my personal, unpublished statistics on a sample of some 600 girls is 4.1 profiles/girl over a period of 3 years, and many girls with more than 5 simultaneously-active profiles eventually turn out to be scammers). However, since I did not include Yahoo, Match and other multinational sites in my list, the actual figure may be anywhere between your estimate and mine.

One interesting fact that I can infer from the site newsletters I receive listing new registrations, is that the number of FSUWs trying this approach is on the increase recently.

If one accepts as being realistic the figure provided by Elena's models proprietor, of 20% of women in agencies finding a foreign guy and one looks at the figures from US immigration over several years, one can infer a population of women ACTIVELY seeking a foreign guy as being around 100,000 at any one time. The number is surprisingly small but if one applies pareto to what we know about agencies and their male clients' activities it appears realistic. Of course, there are women who go to Europe and elsewhere and it has been suggested that more women go to Europe than the US, but in reality these women are a part of the same population and not additional given that most are featured on English language sites. If one were to assume a simialr per capita rate of Russian women importation and that the wome looking at European guys are an entirely seperate group (both extremely weak assumptions) then one might end up with a total figure of maybe 300,000 women.
My guess would be that any uptick in registrations is not rooted in genuine changes on the supply side but on changes on the demand side leading to more of the kind of scams that a year or so ago were new but are now an accepted part of the landscape - the 'woman not present' scams that have seemingly replaced the 'woman present' scams of Green Card Girls, holiday whores and the like. I am sure these women still exist, but the number of cases seems swamped by the other kinds - professional daters, gift and money scams and others that require less 'real women' and more technology.

--

For the others who would choose to attempt to undermine my position by trying to lessen the differenced between Russian women and American ones; three points.
1) You probably have yet to comprehend the real differences between the two groups in terms of the degree of difference. At some point, probably after meeting some real agency women you might.
2) You probably have not realised the similarity between women in the US and Russia in terms of remarriage after age 30 and with kids. The situation is very similar but often overstated on an indivdual level. Men are reluctant to marry a woman over thirty and with kids -fact of life.
3) The women in agencies are very, different to normal women, they are a tiny minority and with different motivations and expectations to their sisters.

Oh on a personal note. I do not normally date women from agencies. I leave that type of women to those who really want 'em or to those who can do no better. If you want to find a woman who is genuine and with whom youhave a reasonable chance of marriage for the reasons most guys claim to prefer then avoid agencoies like the plague. But if you need to use an agency to mediate your realtionship, accept what you can get and do not for one second transfer YOUR shortcomings upon me.

[Turboguy]

Andrewfin,  this is a serious question not a put down.  I am just curious how much experience you have in the American dating scene? 

My own observation by the way is there is a lot less reluctance to accept a woman's child or children here than there.   Here once you are in your mid 30's or so, you don't have much choice anyway.

[Christopher]

Marrying up is alive and well in the US. It happens often. The marrying up is not for economical reasons but for beauty reasons. The man marries when his income is lower and since women are, by in large, attracted to both money and power he gets what he can afford at that time. As his income grows and perhaps his power as well he can now look back over a broader range of available females. All he has to do is tag one who is both younger and better looking and if he can afford her then that is when he trades up. A young and attractive woman seeking a secure financial base is attracted to the older and more wealthy man. He attracted to her youth and beauty. Think Anna Nicole Smith. Michael Douglas. And thousands of no names who did the same.

Peewee

I do not agree Peewwee.  Women are attracted to money for for the reason of security.  Women confuse having the security of money with have the security of love.  I have met so many women in the US who marry men for this reason.  They are often unhappy because they think they can change the man into a loving person.  Women love a project. 

[Turboguy]

You are right Christoper.

I heard a couple of things a long time ago that I thought had some truth in it.

Women marry men hoping they will change.   They don't!
Men marry women hoping they won't change.  They do!
The other I heard about the same time which echos what you said was.

Women consider men a fix-em-up project!

I think both your post and PeeWees had some truth in it.  Women are attracted to Money, power and looks.  The more you have of any of those the better looking gal you are going to be able to get.  Are looks any more a precurser of a happy marriage than is Money or power?

[PeeWee]

Andrewfin,  this is a serious question not a put down.  I am just curious how much experience you have in the American dating scene? 

My own observation by the way is there is a lot less reluctance to accept a woman's child or children here than there.   Here once you are in your mid 30's or so, you don't have much choice anyway.

I agree with the bulk of what Andrew has said, although I did not know the statistics. I also agree that AM seem to be much more accepting of a
woman's children than the FSU M seem to be. In fact I may be in the minority because I have avoided both AW and FSU W who have children. With two exceptions. One of those two had a son who was 21. The other had a 13 year old daughter who was one of the best mannered most intelligent teenagers that I have had the pleasure to ever meet. Therefore an exception was made.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

I do not agree Peewwee.  Women are attracted to money for for the reason of security.  Women confuse having the security of money with have the security of love.  I have met so many women in the US who marry men for this reason.  They are often unhappy because they think they can change the man into a loving person.  Women love a project. 

I agree with all of this, Christopher. I said that women are attracted to money and power. Money begets power in many cases. Add to that what you have suggested, "Women are attracted to money for the reason of security."

I said that as a many matures in his job so does his income. Women reach their expiration date at about 35. Men don't seem to have an expiration date. Older men now with bigger incomes attract younger pretty women who are seeking husbands with bigger incomes, that which represents her financial security. Don't forget the AW scammer. Those young women, Anna Nichole Smith, who target wealther older men with the thought in mind of a short marriage and a quick divorce. She gets half of everything and then moves on to the next victim.

Peewee

[Erwin]

Pewee wrote:

Women reach their expiration date at about 35.

C'mmon Pewee,

I can't tell the women who are in their mid-30s and who asked me why I married my wife that they have reached their expiration date.

Give me a diplomatically correct answer that is reasonably acceptable in our American culture and tradition.

Best,

Erwin

[PeeWee]

Pewee wrote:

Women reach their expiration date at about 35.

C'mmon Pewee,

I can't tell the women who are in their mid-30s and who asked me why I married my wife that they have reached their expiration date.

Give me a diplomatically correct answer that is reasonably acceptable in our American culture and tradition.

Best,

Erwin

I now notice that I had not credited my source. Let me rephrase now. According to radio talk show host, Tom Leykis, the date is 35. My personal date is higher.

Read this. Guaranteed to make your blood boil. He is extreem to be sure but he does make a couple of points that I am onboard with. Such as, women really do seem to enjoy or strive for the attention. Also it does make sense to me that a man should wait until he is beyond 25 or even 30 before he marries. Also I do believe that women are attracted to men who display a higher level of confidence. What is the hot sauce all about? He is suggesting that a woman who wants to trap you into a marriage will impregnate herself  by using the contents of your used condom. It's far out thinking but that is where that guy is at. Out there. LOL!!

"Below are the basics of Leykis 101 if your really serious about improving your skills with women then you should check out Seduction Science as it will take you to whole another level with attracting women:

NEVER, ever date a single mother.
 
Follow the "three strikes and your out" rule. Which means if she hasn't put out in the first three dates, dump the bitch.
 
Never pick up your phone Friday through Sunday. Screen all of your phone calls
No cuddling after sex.
 
Always wear a condom. Even if she is on birth control. No exceptions.
 
Never spend more than $40 on a date. And if she pays, thats even better.
 
Pick out the women with the lowest self esteem. The lower the better. Beautiful women normally have a very low self esteem.
 
Get in touch with your "inner A-hole". Women are drawn to *snip*s. If your a nice guy, you won't get laid. She'll categorize you as her "friend".
 
Women are attention whores and will do almost anything to get it. So keep that in mind when you see some woman dressed to kill.
 
Never have coffee or lunch with a woman unless you want to be "friends".
Women have no male friends. Every male a woman calls a friend wants to bang the living f*** out of her.
 
Stay away from any women who says the words "All my friends are guys". That is trouble and should be avoided at all costs/
 
If the woman you are dating stops putting out, Dump her/
 
Men, the reason why you are friends with a woman with the exception of having a past relationship with her...is that she doesn't find you attractive. The truth hurts. Move on.
 
Men, the more confidence you show the better chances you have of getting the girl. Women smell a pussy a mile away and they can also smell confidence. Women are attracted to confidence almost more than anything else.
 
Don't ever tell a woman you love her.
 
If your girlfriend is spending a lot of time with a "friend" of the opposite sex, dump her.
 
Do not get married until you are at least 25 years of age.
 
Do not buy her flowers until the second year you are married.
 
Don't do anything in the beginning of the relationship you wouldn't normally do later in the relationship. Because her expectations of anything you do for her will cause you problems later.
 
Never hold her purse.
 
Always become unavailable during the holidays. Never pick up the phone close to holiday seasons. Especially Valentine's Day or Thanksgiving.
 
Do not go to a concert with a woman if she invites you. Especially if she has backstage passes or has a friend in the band she is going to see. It just means she is there to see and have sex with the other guy. She probably just used you for the ride there .

Never buy a woman a drink. It's just another way of a woman getting something she wants for free while the man thinks she's interested in him (applies outside of relationships)
 
Eat before you go out on a date. Purpose is that a woman normally wouldn't be caught dead eating more than her date. So this results in a lower costing date by the end of the evening. You tell her that you are trying to eat healthy.
 
Do not order a bottle of wine. And the reason you don't when she asks is because you want to make sure you get her home safely. And to ensure this to the best of your ability, you don't want to drink any alcohol.
 
If your date picks up their cell phone, silently get up and drive off without them. If they wouldn't give you the respect to pay attention to you on the date, you don't give them the respect of driving them home.
 
Keep a bottle of hot sauce Every place you have sex (Bathroom, bedroom etc.) After you use the condom, put a few drops into the used condom and throw it away. This results in the "Burning of the cooch" if she tries to actually use the contents.
 
Leykis 101 is a good starting point for any man looking to improve his status and skills with women Seduction Science is where you take your Leykis 101 Skills to a whole another level."

[Christopher]

Peewee if you want to increase your undrstanding of women have one as a best friend.  The next thing to do is to realize that men and women want the same thing.  Reading a moron is not going to help just like having a highly paid terp to prevent you from stepping on your dick will not help you in marriage.

[Gator]

Here is proof that the type of woman Andrew described does indeed exist.





Andrew, I found your position this morning much more palatabale.  Recently I met a non-agency woman in an airport, and I am impressed.  The problem - 100 cold calls are required to find one good lead.  Such women are there, and can be found by walking around and making eye contact.  RW love to think about destiny, so thay are more open to strangers than AW.

Agencies make it so easy, like a candy store, except some of the candies are chili peppers under a pretty wrapper.