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Poll

If it turns out that the Woohan Institute of Virology incubated and accidentally distributed the Corona Virus what would be your response?

I would be upset with China but would not do anything.
2 (16.7%)
I would boycott China and everything it produces because the government hid a deathly plague
7 (58.3%)
I would believe China - that the disease really started in the US
0 (0%)
I would send China the bill for the lost economies and seek replacement of its government.
3 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: April 19, 2020, 02:15:29 PM

Author Topic: If China is Really Responsible......  (Read 11203 times)

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Offline GQBlues

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2020, 08:52:17 AM »
Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory..

This reminds me the same antics Democrats had been plaguing our country with for years now. Prosecute despite absence of proof and evidence. If not, create one.

.What we do know is there is no animal meat contaminated with the virus on earth. There is no cave of bats, snake pen, or herd of any kind of animals that's ever been detected with the virus....

Quote
Coronaviruses (CoV) are found in a wide variety of animals in which they can cause respiratory, enteric, hepatic, and neurological diseases of varying severity. As a result of the unique mechanism of viral replication, CoV have a high frequency of recombination (1). Their tendency for recombination and high mutation rates may allow them to adapt to new hosts and ecological niches. Among CoV that infect humans, including human CoV 229E (HCoV-229E), human CoV OC43 (HCoV-OC43), severe acute respiratory syndrome CoV (SARS-CoV), human CoV NL63 (HCoV-NL63), and CoV HKU1 (CoV-HKU1), SARS-CoV causes the most severe disease, with >700 fatalities reported since the SARS epidemic in 2003 (2-8).

Citation here

This originated in China. Period. Beyond that, unless anyone can come up with irrefutable proof one way or another, it's just silly.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 09:46:28 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Faux Pas

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2020, 09:47:58 AM »
FP

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24251.msg531513#msg531513

Rabies is also a virus that transmits to humans from animals.  Although reports of such are rare, human to human transmission seems to also be possible.  Even bats can develop rabies.

I read cals link as well. Which came after the WHO's cover up efforts with China. Just part of my DNA is to question who  where what why and how. For patient zero of the covid he would likely had to have carried the bat virus for a very long time years in fact for it to adjust to 1) using a human as a host and 2) to become infectious for human to human transmission. Rabies isn't covid. Related I presume but not airborn

Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2020, 10:08:47 AM »
Was just remembering a couple of months ago where the Iranians were trying to find a way to cover up that they had shot down an airliner.   They couldn't because too many people were in the know.

We all took one look at the damage and that was enough to know already who had shot down the airliner.

I can assure you that there is a lot more known, presently, than is being shared with the public about this virus.  But the first job that our country has is to get the virus under control.  Then figure out what to do about it.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Faux Pas

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2020, 10:13:01 AM »
Was just remembering a couple of months ago where the Iranians were trying to find a way to cover up that they had shot down an airliner.   They couldn't because too many people were in the know.

We all took one look at the damage and that was enough to know already who had shot down the airliner.

I can assure you that there is a lot more known, presently, than is being shared with the public about this virus.  But the first job that our country has is to get the virus under control.  Then figure out what to do about it.

Oh there is a lot known by both the Chinese and the United Nations. That doesn't mean we'll ever know

Offline Boethius

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2020, 12:23:51 PM »
Last week, I heard an interview on CBC with a microbiologist.  He was asked if COVID-19 could have been developed in a laboratory.  He said no.  He explained that viruses often jump from animal hosts to humans, and that the genetic code of COVID-19 proves it was not created in a laboratory.  He also said he's been asked, in the past, to create viruses (which he's refused), but that one thing that he would put into a created virus (he refused to say what) is not in COVID-19, and that is definitive proof the virus was not created in a lab.  He also explained that based on the genetic code of the virus, it did not jump directly from a bat to humans.  Bats were the original carriers, the virus likely jumped to another animal (speculation is snakes and one other animal, can't recall which he said), and from that animal, to a human host.

There is another theory, that Chinese researchers accidently released the virus through blood on their clothing, but I think that is far fetched.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 01:02:59 PM by Boethius »
True love begins when nothing is looked for in return.  Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2020, 02:17:46 PM »
What I read ... and it seems so distant now, but was at the end of last week, was that one of the viruses that the Chinese were studying was the Corona Virus.  That they had it isolated in their laboratory.   All it would have taken was one microbe to wind up on a lab technician's jacket or gloves and the damage was done.

So, I don't think I've seen any theory that this is/was bio-engineered.

 
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2020, 04:24:21 PM »
Citation here

This originated in China. Period. Beyond that, unless anyone can come up with irrefutable proof one way or another, it's just silly.


In the past, coronaviruses were found in animals. In the effort to stop epidemics, the source was found. It's important to find the source and eliminate it so we don't have a repeat. So far this new coronavirus was never traced to an animal. The source was never found. China wants us to believe that it come from a meat market without offering proof. It is silly to believe what they say because so far, everything has been lies.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2020, 04:28:32 PM »
So, I don't think I've seen any theory that this is/was bio-engineered.


Man made things aren't always bio-engineered. A virus can be used in test subjects such as animals or humans which allow the virus to evolved naturally. Some viruses may evolve to be less deadly while others develop extremely dangerous characteristics like the one we are seeing. That is the kind of virus that would be good for biological warfare only if there is a cure available for the army that would release it upon their enemies.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Online msmob

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2020, 10:45:49 PM »
There goes Silly BillyB trying to prove he doesn't understand viruses.

It is my  understanding for a Microbiologist to know if a virus has been manipulated...
We'll be back, EU ..and as a certain 'gentleman' couldn't accept my offer to 'bury the hatchet' .. Don't trust a clueless Californian 'business owner' who cannot even quote me, honestly ..

Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2020, 11:20:40 PM »
It is my  understanding for a Microbiologist to know if a virus has been manipulated...


You have very little understanding of anything. The main argument people have is the virus came from a lab that is 280m or 900ft from the meat market that is getting blamed. Regardless if you read Chinese research that says it's not man made, the virus can still be in the lab for research and development purposes.

A virus doesn't have to be manipulated to become deadlier. We can assist the virus in it's evolution. A virus can be injected in a bunch of hosts until it mutates. If the virus becomes less dangerous, it's discarded. If it becomes more dangerous, the new more dangerous version will be injected into a lot of host hoping for a mutation that makes the virus even more dangerous. There are more than one way to make a bio weapon.

Would China experiment bio weapons on humans? People aren't worth much in China. If you show up with $50,000 and want to buy a kidney, you will get one quickly.

With the amount of hosts we have worldwide, at least 8 strains of the coronavirus have developed in human bodies. If a vaccine is found, it may handle all minor mutations but if the virus mutates too much, then we are in big trouble since another vaccine will be needed.

http://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/medical-advances/491056-at-least-8-strains-of-the-coronavirus-have-been

Bill Gates is spending billions to build facilities to manufacture vaccines should one be found. By doing this he will save months making getting a vaccine out to people quicker.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bill-gates-coronavirus-vaccine-152251369.html?.tsrc=bell-brknews
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 11:27:33 PM by BillyB »
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Online msmob

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2020, 01:20:44 AM »
You have very little understanding of anything. The main argument people have is the virus came from a lab that is 280m or 900ft from the meat market that is getting blamed.

I understand there is no argument - only in some folks bored minds .. mainly north Americans ...  'Suing'  China ..?  :wallbash:

You might as well expect the US, Russia or China to sign up to the International Criminal Court



Now BillyB does his normal trick of proving he hasn't read what he thinks he's responding to ... bearing in mind *I* said it is not hard to spot a virus that has been 'altered by man'


A virus doesn't have to be manipulated to become deadlier. We can assist the virus in it's evolution. A virus can be injected in a bunch of hosts until it mutates. If the virus becomes less dangerous, it's discarded. If it becomes more dangerous, the new more dangerous version will be injected into a lot of host hoping for a mutation that makes the virus even more dangerous. There are more than one way to make a bio weapon.

Would China experiment bio weapons on humans? People aren't worth much in China. If you show up with $50,000 and want to buy a kidney, you will get one quickly.

With the amount of hosts we have worldwide, at least 8 strains of the coronavirus have developed in human bodies. If a vaccine is found, it may handle all minor mutations but if the virus mutates too much, then we are in big trouble since another vaccine will be needed.

http://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/medical-advances/491056-at-least-8-strains-of-the-coronavirus-have-been

Bill Gates is spending billions to build facilities to manufacture vaccines should one be found. By doing this he will save months making getting a vaccine out to people quicker.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bill-gates-coronavirus-vaccine-152251369.html?.tsrc=bell-brknews

So, BillyB care to address the point *I* made ... ?  NOT the one you decided I'd made .. :popcorn:
We'll be back, EU ..and as a certain 'gentleman' couldn't accept my offer to 'bury the hatchet' .. Don't trust a clueless Californian 'business owner' who cannot even quote me, honestly ..

Offline BC

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2020, 01:37:14 AM »
Just because something is possible, does not mean it is true.

A typical example of Ad Ignorantiam

I could state that a green Martian brought the virus from Mars.  Of course, there is no proof of that but I could argue that because you cannot prove it is not true it must be.

One cannot prove that green Martians do not exist. Maybe they moved to Venus now. Maybe they are just as small as the virus itself and travel on microscopic space ships.. and on and on and on.

Billy's hypothesis has just as much validity as the green Martian hypothesis above.

Online Gator

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2020, 05:24:39 AM »
One theory about the origin of COVID 19 and the naming of Patient Zero.



My posting this clip does not signify I agree with it.   

Offline Faux Pas

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2020, 05:52:35 AM »
One theory about the origin of COVID 19 and the naming of Patient Zero.


My posting this clip does not signify I agree with it.

It's certainly plausible. The guy did not touch on the WHO "supposed" investigation. I think he's certainly right about the Chinese government but when you add in WHO, corona virus and the United Nations, you definitely have something that stinks to high heaven.

I find it odd that all the experts early on were stating it was a lab mutated virus. How or why nobody knew. After the WHO got involved release after release were claiming it was a natural virus and that information was echoed on the national media and everywhere on the internet. The shit just don't add up

Online Gator

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2020, 06:06:39 AM »
The guy did not touch on the WHO "supposed" investigation. I think he's certainly right about the Chinese government but when you add in WHO, corona virus and the United Nations, you definitely have something that stinks to high heaven.

Sen. Scott of Florida wants a full investigation of WHO.  The US is WHO's largest donor, yet WHO seems to be protecting China.   Did WHO follow its epidemic protocols?

Related to this, yesterday I mentioned  China was hoarding medical supplies (e. g., importing 2+ billion masks) in January and February while withholding information about the true virulence of COVID-19.   In your words, this stinks to high heaven.  Such is attracting more attention among those who want China to be held responsible.  China needs to be punished to assure future new infections in the world are dealt with promptly and responsibly.     

Offline Faux Pas

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2020, 06:24:07 AM »
Sen. Scott of Florida wants a full investigation of WHO.  The US is WHO's largest donor, yet WHO seems to be protecting China.   Did WHO follow its epidemic protocols?

Related to this, yesterday I mentioned  China was hoarding medical supplies (e. g., importing 2+ billion masks) in January and February while withholding information about the true virulence of COVID-19.   In your words, this stinks to high heaven.  Such is attracting more attention among those who want China to be held responsible.  China needs to be punished to assure future new infections in the world are dealt with promptly and responsibly.   

Obviously not. We didn't know it at the time and we had no way of know what was coming and "that" is/was suppose to be the purpose and goal of the WHO. Knowing that WHO ignored warning the world of what was happening in China could easily lead one to believe it was intentional and perhaps agenda driven
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 08:07:08 AM by Faux Pas »

Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2020, 08:03:33 AM »
Just because something is possible, does not mean it is true.


Just because you believe China the virus came from a meat market doesn't make it true.

Do large nations have biological weapons programs and do biological research? YES

Does biological research involve animals? YES. I know a guy who help clean up the Hanford nuke site. In some facilities that were abandoned decades ago due to high radiation were dead zoo animals such as giraffes, lions, and elephants. Even America done things to animals to experiment what their bodies can handle.

Bill Gates said this virus behaves like the once in a century pathogen that we've always feared. What are your chances of seeing that pathogen in your lifetime? Once or none. Most people don't live 100 years. How many level 4 bio labs that house the most dangerous pathogens known to man exist in China? Exactly one. What are the chances the most dangerous pathogen this century just happened to be found next door to China's only level 4 laboratory? Why couldn't it have been found in a bat cave? Probably because it never existed in a bat cave.

What do you think BC? The world should give up on locating the source of the virus? We should trust China? If China allowed WHO and the CDC into China early to investigate the virus, people would be less suspicious of them. They made their bed so they should lay in it. While China was lying to the world in January that human to human transmission wasn't possible, they bought PPE from all over the world. They hoarded the PPE that we would eventually need because they knew a long time ago human to human transmission was possible and it would be a matter of time before we all have outbreaks. China has costed Italy in lives and in loss of economy. We don't know when it'll end but you seem fine if nobody investigates China further although there was clear proof of deception and negligence.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Offline BC

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2020, 08:50:03 AM »
Just because you believe China the virus came from a meat market doesn't make it true.

Billy, there you go again with another argumentum ad ignorantiam

I can take your sentence above and change just the basic words and get:  'Just because you believe the Bible that Christ is the son of God doesn't make it true.'

All I 'know' is that we don't 'know', and that certainly no one here at RWD 'knows'. As of today, the Martian theory is just as valid as any other.  Get it now?

As to possible 'how', there are several plausible ways the virus could have evolved enough as to transmit from some host to human to human, and that so far there is no evidence of genetic manipulation.
 



Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2020, 09:15:06 AM »
Billy, there you go again with another argumentum ad ignorantiam

I can take your sentence above and change just the basic words and get:  'Just because you believe the Bible that Christ is the son of God doesn't make it true.'

All I 'know' is that we don't 'know', and that certainly no one here at RWD 'knows'. As of today, the Martian theory is just as valid as any other.  Get it now?

As to possible 'how', there are several plausible ways the virus could have evolved enough as to transmit from some host to human to human, and that so far there is no evidence of genetic manipulation.

BC,

You are willingly neglecting outstanding evidence in that Billy is right that the only developmental virology lab is close (or next to) the live food market and is the only place in China where there might be a leak of the strain.   Couple with that is the (now denied) admission that China was working with the strain at the time of the outbreak.

So, add to your theory that Martian space ships were found in China and that there was evidence that the martians were shopping at the live food market.   Now your theory is just as plausible that the martians brought the pathogen to earth.   

I am not saying that the pathogen was leaked from the lab.   What I am saying is that if it was, and it gets out that it was, and that China covered it up, there will be hell to pay.   

The simple fact is that you don't bring the world to its knees and walk away from it.   We have about two months until the world shouts as one that it needs answers.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Belvis

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2020, 09:17:05 AM »
Such is attracting more attention among those who want China to be held responsible.  China needs to be punished to assure future new infections in the world are dealt with promptly and responsibly.   
Why don't you put more efforts to develop better capability to fight infectious diseases instead of to blame China? Otherwise  USA must  take responsibility for the 1918 flu pandemic (Spanish flu), which originated in Kansas according to some researchers.
By the way, USA were claimed by Global Health Security Index to be the best prepared for rapid response to and mitigation of the spread of an epidemics. First two positions in this rating were taken by USA and United Kingdom. China was 51st,
Russia was 63d.
Spain and South Korea share 12 and 13th places ( 4.  SUFFICIENT & ROBUST HEALTH SYSTEM TO TREAT THE SICK & PROTECT HEALTH WORKERS), but what an  enormous disparity in mortality rate from coronavirus between them.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 09:21:31 AM by Belvis »

Offline Faux Pas

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2020, 09:28:38 AM »
Why don't you put more efforts to develop better capability to fight infectious diseases instead of to blame China? Otherwise  USA must  take responsibility for the 1918 flu pandemic (Spanish flu), which originated in Kansas according to some researchers.
By the way, USA were claimed by Global Health Security Index to be the best prepared for rapid response to and mitigation of the spread of an epidemics. First two positions in this rating were taken by USA and United Kingdom. China was 51st,
Russia was 63d.
Spain and South Korea share 12 and 13th places ( 4.  SUFFICIENT & ROBUST HEALTH SYSTEM TO TREAT THE SICK & PROTECT HEALTH WORKERS), but what an  enormous disparity in mortality rate from coronavirus between them.

This post is stating exactly absolutely nothing. What is it you are trying to say? The Global Health Security Index is wrong?

Offline BC

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2020, 09:43:20 AM »
BC,

You are willingly neglecting outstanding evidence in that Billy is right that the only developmental virology lab is close (or next to) the live food market and is the only place in China where there might be a leak of the strain.   Couple with that is the (now denied) admission that China was working with the strain at the time of the outbreak.

So, add to your theory that Martian space ships were found in China and that there was evidence that the martians were shopping at the live food market.   Now your theory is just as plausible that the martians brought the pathogen to earth.   

I am not saying that the pathogen was leaked from the lab.   What I am saying is that if it was, and it gets out that it was, and that China covered it up, there will be hell to pay.   

The simple fact is that you don't bring the world to its knees and walk away from it.   We have about two months until the world shouts as one that it needs answers.

Jone,

In more or fewer words, we both agree.  I did not neglect the lab.. If it is there it is there.

When discussing causality for any subject, my wife often quips back "Anything is possible".. and guess what she is always right  :devil:

Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2020, 10:02:10 AM »
Jone,

In more or fewer words, we both agree.  I did not neglect the lab.. If it is there it is there.

When discussing causality for any subject, my wife often quips back "Anything is possible".. and guess what she is always right  :devil:

BC,

You have learned the most important lesson in life and I salute you!   Your wife is always right.   :D
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline BC

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2020, 10:11:32 AM »
Indeed jone!

Offline ML

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2020, 10:12:23 AM »
but what an  enormous disparity in mortality rate from coronavirus between them.

You are forgetting again and focusing on what the various governments are telling regarding the numbers.

Regardless of what you think of USA people and USA government . . . you are surely aware that in our Free Press system . . . everything will come out.

This is not true in many (most) of the other countries of the world and in particular China, Russia, N Korea and authoritarian regimes in particular.

With this in mind . . . the USA numbers are likely to look very bad compared to many other countries.
Winston Churchill.  The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

 

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Re: Travel... by rwd123
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Re: Travel... by krimster2
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Starting new, what to look for and questions by 2tallbill
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Making mountains out of ant hills by 2tallbill
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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China) by BillyB
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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China) by BC
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