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Poll

If it turns out that the Woohan Institute of Virology incubated and accidentally distributed the Corona Virus what would be your response?

I would be upset with China but would not do anything.
2 (16.7%)
I would boycott China and everything it produces because the government hid a deathly plague
7 (58.3%)
I would believe China - that the disease really started in the US
0 (0%)
I would send China the bill for the lost economies and seek replacement of its government.
3 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: April 19, 2020, 02:15:29 PM

Author Topic: If China is Really Responsible......  (Read 9466 times)

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Online mhr7

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2020, 02:27:17 PM »
Watch this Billy and try to understand. It's an interesting watch for everyone else as well.

Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American peopledoes not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us    James Mattis

Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2020, 02:46:48 PM »

The makers of the video praised WHO for warning the world and said UK got their first case 2 weeks later. They criticize UK for waiting to lock down the country 6 weeks later after the first case. Those guys are idiots. Is the world supposed to lockdown after WHO warns the world? Are nations supposed to lockdown and shut down economies after their first case shows up in their countries?

They failed to criticize WHO for continuously recommending nations to keep borders open.  They said China made the genome sequencing of the virus available Jan 12 as if it's supposed to make a difference. They fail to tell us China and WHO through that time and most of January tell nations not to worry, the virus can't be transferred human to human which gave everybody the belief one could only get the virus if they ate virus tainted meat. Why do nations need to act unless their population eats meat coming out of the Wuhan meat market? They fail to tell their listeners that China prevented experts from coming into China to evaluate the virus and situation themselves. They refuse to tell the whole story to make the UK look bad in their response to the virus. I couldn't watch the whole video. Sorry.
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2020, 03:44:05 PM »
...There's a lot of bad news going around the world and if governments don't take action against China, individuals will by boycotting their products forcing manufactures to make products elsewhere. WHO also needs to be dealt with. The experts running the show assisted China in deceiving the world and gave out bad advice telling nations to keep borders open.

:::chucke:::

I can't help but be reminded of the satirical film ' A Day Without Mexicans'. How/when/which do you propose to carry out this exercise, BillyB?
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
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Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2020, 03:52:48 PM »
Watch this Billy and try to understand. It's an interesting watch for everyone else as well.



Not your finest moment, Buddy.

It was WHO that was stating that Corona was not transmittable, human to human.   It is almost like this guy was on the payroll of the Chinese. 

The Chinese are spending money, hand over fist, right now, to improve their image.   Better watch what you quote as it may be the product of the Chinese disinformation campaign.

Of course, there are those on this forum who still believe that China really only has 3000 dead - and that it is their superior style of government that could manage the total lockdown which held their dead at such modest numbers.    All hail the Communist Party of China!!!   (NOT)

Wonder if the Chinese have copied the Russian Troll Farms or if they are doing a disinformation campaign that is Oh, so more sophisticated.   After all, anything the Russians can do, the Chinese can do better.

I was talking to my nephew, today, who is based, currently, in Germany.    I asked him what the perspective was over there, never mentioning China.   His first comments were that the US should never take anything the Communist Chinese say as factual.   He then said, "If you look at their mortality rates and understand how impossible they are, then you have to take everything else they say regarding the Corona Virus with the same disbelief.   Pretty perceptive thinking coming from a Captain Jarhead.

I give it another week before some enterprising web designer comes up with a Boycott China website.

I, personally, like the Chinese nationals that I have met.   But it is there government that is under fire, not them.
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Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2020, 04:10:12 PM »
:::chucke:::

I can't help but be reminded of the satirical film ' A Day Without Mexicans'. How/when/which do you propose to carry out this exercise, BillyB?

There's going to be enough people exercising to be noticeable. Not everybody will participate of course. Corporate America is careful about insulting people or getting into politics. Say the wrong thing and a large chunk of customers will boycott them.

What China did goes beyond insults or simply choosing a political side to an issue. The longer this crisis drags on and the more people die and the more people will be affected. They will resent China for killing their friends, family, losing their job or destroying the economy of the nation they live in. As a result many will boycott Chinese products and travel to China. I'm not sold on everybody will ignore wrongdoing to save a few dollars.

If China tries to win people's minds with propaganda that it's America's fault, then our Trump will boycott China.

I give it another week before some enterprising web designer comes up with a Boycott China website.


There's a few website pages that come close. I'm sure they're picking up steam.

http://www.facebook.com/Boycott-China-and-Products-Made-in-China-180862738628225/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott_Chinese_products
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #105 on: April 09, 2020, 04:22:58 PM »
That's all good and well, BillyB.

You of course are aware the annual commerce between the US and China is a whopping $800 billion/yr. That's a whole lot of enchilada to kick down the street because were really po'd this time and were not taking it anymore!!!

http://ustr.gov/countries-regions/china-mongolia-taiwan/peoples-republic-china

Do you remotely even understand the size of the lobbyist army that comprises of?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 04:24:47 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online mhr7

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #106 on: April 09, 2020, 04:36:40 PM »
Look at the timeline he presents,

Jan. 9 - Worldwide alert

Jan. 12 - China makes genome known to all

Jan. 20 - WHO declares public health emergency

Jan 23 - Wuhan shut down

Jan 29 - US sets up task force

Feb 28 - Trump calls coronavirus "their new hoax"

His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action, how is China to blame for that? Our own idiot president was still calling the reaction to the virus the Democrat's hoax as late as the end of February.

The man who made this is no troll but has a Ph.d in chemistry and has a very interesting channel on youtube related to science  education.
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #107 on: April 09, 2020, 04:51:30 PM »
There's going to be enough people exercising to be noticeable. Not everybody will participate of course. Corporate America is careful about insulting people or getting into politics. Say the wrong thing and a large chunk of customers will boycott them.

What China did goes beyond insults or simply choosing a political side to an issue. The longer this crisis drags on and the more people die and the more people will be affected. They will resent China for killing their friends, family, losing their job or destroying the economy of the nation they live in. As a result many will boycott Chinese products and travel to China. I'm not sold on everybody will ignore wrongdoing to save a few dollars.

 

Well BillyB, get on the phone and convince Mr Bezos to not do business with China. If you get him onboard, which I doubt very much, I am sure your boycott of Chinese products will produce dividends.
There is a reason retailers like Walmart, Home Depot make tons of profits!!
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #108 on: April 09, 2020, 04:57:50 PM »
Here's an excellent website with more detail pertaining to trade with China. Our imports from China in Feb 2020 dropped by 30% compared to what we imported 2019. We can blame the initial drop in imports on the virus but after awhile, other factors such as boycotts will keep imports down. Check on that site every few months to see what's going on with trade with China.  If I were a nation like Vietnam or Thailand, I'd be calling up American companies and Trump. A president can make a difference in trade. Nixon opened up China. Bill Clinton policies accelerated trade with China. Will Trump be motivated to make another Asian nation our supplier of cheap goods? You're right Americans want cheap goods. Before China, cheap goods came from Taiwan. Maybe it's another country's turn or at least one that can share the role with China.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action, how is China to blame for that?


People like to talk about problems but offer no solution. How is China to blame? China failed to allow WHO, the CDC and any other expert organization from participating in controlling the spread in their nation. They deceived and arrested whistleblowers to conceal the dangerous truth. Every action a nation takes against the virus is severe. There is no perfect response. . If they shut down their nation too early to save lives, they severely damage their economy. If they wait too late, they lose a lot of lives. No nation has ever had an experience dealing with a virus like this. The damage will be huge and the world may end up in a depression. If China allowed help into their country early, there is no guarantee the virus would be stopped but at least nobody could blame them for being honest and making a good attempt to stop the virus. Remember last month I showed you a timeline of the games they played with WHO? When they finally allowed WHO into China after weeks of games, they put the scientists in a hotel in Beijing away from the action. If I made many attempts to prevent firefighters from putting out a fire which ended up taking lives, I'd be found criminally responsible for those loss of lives, not the firefighters. I certainly don't blame UK for the deaths of UK citizens.

Well BillyB, get on the phone and convince Mr Bezos to not do business with China. If you get him onboard, which I doubt very much, I am sure your boycott of Chinese products will produce dividends.
There is a reason retailers like Walmart, Home Depot make tons of profits!!

Bezos, Walmart, and Home Depot answers to customers. They will observe their customers behavior and if certain products aren't selling well, they will clear off the shelves to make room for products that do sell well.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Online mhr7

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #109 on: April 09, 2020, 05:03:48 PM »
China had a very strong reaction to the virus.

Quote
In mid-January, Chinese authorities introduced unprecedented measures to contain the virus, stopping movement in and out of Wuhan, the centre of the epidemic, and 15 other cities in Hubei province home to more than 60 million people. Flights and trains were suspended, and roads were blocked.

Soon after, people in many Chinese cities were told to stay at home and venture out only to get food or medical help. Some 760 million people, roughly half the countrys population, were confined to their homes, according to The New York Times.

http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00741-x
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Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #110 on: April 09, 2020, 05:21:41 PM »
China had a very strong reaction to the virus.

http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00741-x

Locking down 760 million people in late January is considered very strong action but strong action should've been taken earlier in December or even November but China was busy arresting medical personnel who were trying to alert citizens and the world of a new mystery pneumonia killing people. Keep in mind, they only took strong action after they couldn't keep it a secret from their people anymore. Too many of them got sick and died. China even protested nations who closed their borders with them. They knew the problems would bring to other nations but they wanted our business and tourism and didn't care if we took it back to our nations after visiting China. If you have a child that got critically ill after attending a day care that knew a virus was running loose and didn't warn the parents, would you defend them the way you're defending China?
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #111 on: April 09, 2020, 06:02:00 PM »
Look at the timeline he presents,

Jan. 9 - Worldwide alert

Jan. 12 - China makes genome known to all

Jan. 20 - WHO declares public health emergency

Jan 23 - Wuhan shut down

Jan 29 - US sets up task force

Feb 28 - Trump calls coronavirus "their new hoax"

His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action, how is China to blame for that? Our own idiot president was still calling the reaction to the virus the Democrat's hoax as late as the end of February.

The man who made this is no troll but has a Ph.d in chemistry and has a very interesting channel on youtube related to science  education.

Why don't you put a bow on it and it will look really cute.

#1.  When did China stop international flights coming to Wuhan?   When did they stop international flights from originating in Wuhan?   Answer:  China has never stopped flights in and out of Wuhan.  The airlines, themselves, had to cease travel.

http://qz.com/1793858/wuhan-virus-borders-closed-airlines-cancel-china-flights/

#2.   When did China acknowledge that Li Wenliang was correct when he released his information regarding the spread of the virus?   (I'll give you a hint:   He released his information in Mid-December.   He was detained by the police and told not to give any interviews, etc.)   He died in the first week of February.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2020/0207/Chinese-hero-doctor-dies-unleashing-public-fury-at-Beijing

It wasn't until after his death and the Central Committee saw the great Chinese grief at his passing that they made him into their national hero.

#3.   When did WHO acknowledge human to human transmission of the disease?  Hint:   The first documented human to human transmission of the disease occurred in the first week of December.   WHO did not acknowledge human to human transmission until the end of January.   

I could care less about Trump.  I want him replaced in November.   But there are too many flags outstanding and now too many efforts by the Chinese government to spin the disease, without any cooperation given to other countries.    This is not about politics.   This is about lives.   I have read articles translated from Chinese that state that the government will NOT ALLOW Coronavirus cases in the emergency rooms of the hospitals.   Because that would acknowledge that the virus is still active in China and goes against the official statements that the disease is under control.   Imagine that.   Allowing your own people to die because treating them would go against the official government line.

The UK and the US acknowledge the cases.   How many cases are in China?   10 fold?  50 fold?   100 fold?   One of the ways that people know who is alive and who is not is by the number of cell phones that are no longer being used.   That number no longer in use is staggering.
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Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #112 on: April 09, 2020, 06:39:15 PM »
I submit, for everyone's perusal, the WHO report from Feb 24th.

http://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf

Two questions come out: 

1.  What is an asymptomatic case?   Well, it is a case whereby someone doesn't show symptoms but has the ability to transmit the disease.   

2.  Why does China and the WHO claim that there are no asymptomatic cases?

Every country in the world now knows that this travels asymptomatically.   The Doctors at Wuhan Central Hospital documented this in Mid December.   

How much did the resistance to admitting asymptomatic exposure lead to the world wide epidemic?   Simply put, if the world had known that anyone could be a carrier of the virus without the display of symptoms, I believe that the world-wide response would have been different.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #113 on: April 09, 2020, 06:47:35 PM »
We (and the UK) should have taken action when infections were first reported in our country. WE (Trump) waited too long to do anything.

Yes, China could have and should have handled this better but the rest of the world should have too. We still have states that have no orders for people to stay home. The Democratic governor of Kansas tried to prohibit churches from holding services on Easter but was overruled by the Republican state legislature, WTF? A great portion of this is politics, we rely on our leadership to actually do something when sh!t hits the fan.
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2020, 07:19:36 PM »
Its not just the Republicans.  Anyone who watched that travesty in Wisconsin knew both sides were playing for political advantage rather than the health of the people.  They should remove both the legislature (Republican) and the governor (Democrat) for the antics that their people survived.   

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the state held a primary this past week.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2020, 07:47:05 PM »
but not as stoopid as having Easter Service this Sunday...
that's a "special stoopid"
for "Essential Businesses" only...
so I guess religion really is just a business after all....

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2020, 07:53:27 PM »
We (and the UK) should have taken action when infections were first reported in our country. WE (Trump) waited too long to do anything.


Action was taken when the first case was reported in America. The guy was quarantined in a hospital. A week later Trump banned all foreign nationals that been in China. He's one of the first leaders in the world to do that if not the first. What were the Democrats doing? They were calling Trump a racist for that ban and they were busy impeaching him into February. A virus wasn't even on their radar until Trump did a travel ban they didn't like.

Video in link below shows Nancy Pelosi in San Francisco Chinatown February 24th telling people to come to Chinatown. She's hugging and holding hands with Chinese people to prove a point Trump is racist and showing the virus isn't as dangerous as people think.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/nancy-pelosi-visits-san-franciscos-chinatown-amid-coronavirus-concerns/2241075/

In link below Nancy Pelosi tells people February 24th to come visit Chinatown! This is what your Democratic leadership has done as the virus spreads around the world. Thank God they aren't running the show during this crisis. But later Nancy Pelosi does her job and tells the nation Trump was in denial about the virus and slow to act. Lol

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/pelosi-encouraged-public-gatherings-in-late-february-weeks-after-trumps-china-travel-ban

A month after Nancy Pelosi's stunt, San Francisco asks for 5000 more hospital beds and 1500 ventilators.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/news/breed-sf-needs-5000-more-hospital-beds-1500-ventilators-for-coronavirus-surge/

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #117 on: April 09, 2020, 08:14:25 PM »
NPR today gave a report of tracing the origins of COVID-19 infections in NYC.  The virus mutates, imparting ever so slightly unique signatures in its genetic code. By matching these signatures with samples from Europe, the scientists proved that the first seven outbreaks in NYC trace to travelers from Europe, not China.

These originating Europeans, of course, earlier became infected either by traveling to China or coming into contact with travelers from China.     

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #118 on: April 09, 2020, 08:39:49 PM »
His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action.....

I say the whole world waited too long.


Quote
how is China to blame for that?


IMO all nations share culpability.  No nation benefited.   Given the transmissibility and mortality of this pathogen, no nation would escape it.  However, by withholding some important information in the early stages, China allowed the globe to suffer more.     

Quote
Our own idiot president was still calling the reaction to the virus the Democrat's hoax as late as the end of February.

From Snopes: 

What's True
During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.


What's False
Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.


Trump made the comments shortly before (but before nevertheless)  the first COVID-19 death in America.

I suppose you still consider yourself unbiased.  Yet, in your timeline you failed to mention Trump's January 29 ban of travelers from China.  How could you miss that?   Trump reminds us of that fact at almost every Task Force briefing.   

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #119 on: April 09, 2020, 09:13:32 PM »
Not your finest moment, Buddy.  it is their superior style of government that could manage the total lockdown which held their dead at such modest numbers.    All hail the Communist Party of China!!!   (NOT)

Not YOUR finest moment.  This is all about China competing with the USA, and winning.  Now in order to try to gain back that advantage people like yourself are going to try to use this virus to weaken China.   All hail the 'american patriots'!  NOT!!



I, personally, like the Chinese nationals that I have met.   But it is there government that is under fire, not them.

Always the little one line disclaimer to try to maintain a slight bit of credibility. 

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #120 on: April 09, 2020, 09:18:38 PM »
Look at the timeline he presents,

Jan. 9 - Worldwide alert

Jan. 12 - China makes genome known to all

Jan. 20 - WHO declares public health emergency

Jan 23 - Wuhan shut down

Jan 29 - US sets up task force

Feb 28 - Trump calls coronavirus "their new hoax"

His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action, how is China to blame for that? Our own idiot president was still calling the reaction to the virus the Democrat's hoax as late as the end of February.

The man who made this is no troll but has a Ph.d in chemistry and has a very interesting channel on youtube related to science  education.
Trump was briefed multiple times in late November and dismissed it.  We (The US) had enough time to take a lot more actions than we chose to take.  I think it was intentional.  I'd guess trump had probably already decided then that we(The US) would take minimal  and/or late action, and then blame china later for our tardy response and ensuing death count.  He knew he could count on his 'patriot' contingent to drum up some support and rancor towards China . 

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #121 on: April 09, 2020, 09:31:03 PM »


I could care less about Trump.  I want him replaced in November. 


Oh look, another one of your famous 'throw away disclaimer lines' in each of your posts.  A little hint for you, it is an obvious and failing effort to try for credibility.    It is about politics/business  and you serve the role of the useful idiot well. 

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #122 on: April 09, 2020, 09:34:09 PM »
Bezos, Walmart, and Home Depot answers to customers. They will observe their customers behavior and if certain products aren't selling well, they will clear off the shelves to make room for products that do sell well.
And for the vast majority the lower priced item sells well. 

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #123 on: April 09, 2020, 09:39:24 PM »
Trump was briefed multiple times in late November and dismissed it.  We (The US) had enough time to take a lot more actions than we chose to take.


What action would you take? China often reports SARS, bird flus, and plagues. There's probably more they didn't report if they were successful silencing people. Are we to shut down borders and economy each time we hear a report?

In January this year China reports at least 4 bird flus

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7987009/Bird-flu-breaks-two-Chinese-provinces-near-coronaviruss-epicentre.html

 In November last year China reports they are battling the most dangerous plague but not before they silenced whistleblowers. This article says Chinese response to the plague is more dangerous than the plague itself. I'm sure Trump got a briefing on the plague too which was probably considered more dangerous than the Wuhan mystery virus.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/16/china-bubonic-plague-outbreak-pandemic/

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/11/15/779526827/china-reports-2-cases-of-the-most-dangerous-type-of-plague
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Offline LAman

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #124 on: April 09, 2020, 09:46:08 PM »
NPR today gave a report of tracing the origins of COVID-19 infections in NYC.  The virus mutates, imparting ever so slightly unique signatures in its genetic code. By matching these signatures with samples from Europe, the scientists proved that the first seven outbreaks in NYC trace to travelers from Europe, not China.

These originating Europeans, of course, earlier became infected either by traveling to China or coming into contact with travelers from China.     

Must have been interesting program Gator. From what I understand it takes this virus approx 15 days to mutate( much slower than influenza). Last I read it was up to 11 strains identified.
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