Politics regarding struggle for Ukraine

[2tallbill]

No, I disagree with your assessment.  First, supplying weaponry, and strength is not "micromanaging". 

No, you recommended withholding weaponry unless Ukraine does what Biden
and others wants. Similar to the US Congress, giving the US army funds but
saying you can't follow the Viet Cong into say Cambodia or cross lines on a
map.

Russians need to understand that any war in Ukraine is going to be prolonged,
and bloody, and could very well spill into Russia.  When Russian civilians start
dying the way Ukrainian civilians have been, the war will end sooner.

How is withholding arms to Ukraine going to make Russia less aggressive?
It will do the opposite. Also, currently there is a corridor through which
refugees can leave and arms can enter. Why would Russia leave that
corridor open if you started dangling carrots and sticks?

When Russian civilians start dying the way Ukrainian civilians have been,
the war will end sooner.

How would your suggestions cause this to be possible?

Second, you completely misunderstand Western Ukrainians.  They are far more likely to want zero capitulation on territory.

You misunderstood my comments. My comment was about alienating Ukrainian's
to Westerner's e.g. the US, UK, Germany, etc. I was not talking about alienating
Western Ukrainians. I can see how my post could have been interpreted otherwise.

[2tallbill]

Forbidden where ?

EU Orders Removal of Russian State-Owned Media From Search Results,
Social-Media Reshares
http://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-09/card/eu-orders-removal-of-russian-state-owned-media-from-search-results-social-media-reshares-Nxb4WXbCaQnCUMmL9Mvk


EU tells Google to delist Russian state media websites from search
http://www.engadget.com/eu-google-delist-russian-state-media-websites-search-104441509.html


Big Tech Begins Restricting Russian State Media Platforms
Microsoft restricts RT, Sputnik in search and advertising
Tech companies taking action ahead of expected EU ban
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-28/meta-restricts-russian-state-media-in-eu-after-governments-ask

[BC]

EU Orders Removal of Russian State-Owned Media From Search Results,
Social-Media Reshares
http://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-09/card/eu-orders-removal-of-russian-state-owned-media-from-search-results-social-media-reshares-Nxb4WXbCaQnCUMmL9Mvk


EU tells Google to delist Russian state media websites from search
http://www.engadget.com/eu-google-delist-russian-state-media-websites-search-104441509.html


Big Tech Begins Restricting Russian State Media Platforms
Microsoft restricts RT, Sputnik in search and advertising
Tech companies taking action ahead of expected EU ban
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-28/meta-restricts-russian-state-media-in-eu-after-governments-ask

And?  Is it within EU rights to request such?

[Boethius]

No, you recommended withholding weaponry unless Ukraine does what Biden and others wants. Similar to the US Congress, giving the US army funds but saying you can't follow the Viet Cong into say Cambodia or cross lines on a map.

I actually don't agree with this, but it's the realpolitik.  Currently, NATO countries are saying "No", unequivocally, to supplying offensive weapons.  That emboldens Putin.  Were they to say "We will have offensive weapons ready to transfer to you, if Russia escalates.", the Russians would have to think twice about further offensive action.

How is withholding arms to Ukraine going to make Russia less aggressive?  It will do the opposite. Also, currently there is a corridor through which refugees can leave and arms can enter. Why would Russia leave that corridor open if you started dangling carrots and sticks?

How would your suggestions cause this to be possible?

See above.  If those weapons are sitting on the border, unless Russia (a) bombs Poland; or (b) masses on the Polish border (impossible, currently), those weapons will enter Ukraine.  But I believe the mere threat of them will cool Russia's heels.

You misunderstood my comments. My comment was about alienating Ukrainian's to Westerner's e.g. the US, UK, Germany, etc. I was not talking about alienating Western Ukrainians. I can see how my post could have been interpreted otherwise.

I don't think that would the case now, after atrocities. 


There are photos of families shot, their bodies in basements, from Mariupol.  One includes two girls, one 17 years of age, one, 3 years of age, both allegedly showing signs of rape.  When those types of photos are widely distributed, it will be difficult for Germany to be alienated from Ukraine.  If they are, well, I won't say what my reaction is.

[SteveInBoston]

EU Orders Removal of Russian State-Owned Media From Search Results,
Social-Media Reshares
http://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-09/card/eu-orders-removal-of-russian-state-owned-media-from-search-results-social-media-reshares-Nxb4WXbCaQnCUMmL9Mvk


EU tells Google to delist Russian state media websites from search
http://www.engadget.com/eu-google-delist-russian-state-media-websites-search-104441509.html


Big Tech Begins Restricting Russian State Media Platforms
Microsoft restricts RT, Sputnik in search and advertising
Tech companies taking action ahead of expected EU ban
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-28/meta-restricts-russian-state-media-in-eu-after-governments-ask

Not the same as "Journalists from RT" being forbidden.  It seems RT journalists can keep reporting on whatever and say whatever, for russian or chinese consumption. 

[Noch1]

Not the same as "Journalists from RT" being forbidden.  It seems RT journalists can keep reporting on whatever and say whatever, for russian or chinese consumption.

They are fed by Russian regime what to say and when.
not news.

Telegram is great, made by couple young Russians to get around Putins rules
used by people live all over the world.

[Boethius]

Not the same as "Journalists from RT" being forbidden.  It seems RT journalists can keep reporting on whatever and say whatever, for russian or chinese consumption.

RT can be read in the West, too.  But most people will seek it though google.

[2tallbill]

And?  Is it within EU rights to request such?

I don't know, I'm not an EU'ian.

Pat said Russian News/Propaganda are being forbidden, ML asked how. 
I posted news about being delisted. I don't know if they have freedom
of the Press in the EU, I sort of doubt it. You can't have real freedom
of the Press in socialism.

[2tallbill]

Not the same as "Journalists from RT" being forbidden.  It seems RT journalists can keep reporting on whatever and say whatever, for russian or chinese consumption.

Pat said that. I posted articles about what he might have been talking about.

I just pulled up RT.com by typing it in my URL box. I found these articles on
the RT website

Russia claims Ukraine stages more ‘killings’ of civilians
http://www.rt.com/russia/553328-ukraine-staged-killings-bucha/


Kremlin responds to Bucha war crimes claims
Ukrainian allegations against Russian troops should be properly
investigated, not taken at face value, Moscow said
http://www.rt.com/russia/553257-bucha-war-crimes-peskov/


Germany seizes Russian gas company
Germany has taken ownership of a local branch of Russia’s state-owned energy
giant Gazprom. Berlin’s energy regulator will temporarily control the company
despite Moscow’s previous insistence that such a move would be illegal.
http://www.rt.com/russia/553303-germany-seizes-russian-gas-company/

[Jumper1]

I type rt into google and the first listing is rt news in the list.

Yes that's likely from prior searches.

However I highly doubt anyone actually wanting to read rt is having much trouble doing so.

[Nightwish]

RT is banned in Europe
On twitter, on Youtube and the website itself.

Not that this prevents you from accessing it if you want, just change DNS server, but "all" european ISP has blocked access to rt.com (EU countries)

I type rt into google and the first listing is rt news in the list.

Yes that's likely from prior searches.

However I highly doubt anyone actually wanting to read rt is having much trouble doing so.

[krimster2]

"You can't have real freedom
of the Press in socialism. "

In 2021, the countries which ranked highest on the Press Freedom Index were Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Costa Rica, the Netherlands, Jamaica, New Zealand, Ireland, Portugal, and Switzerland. The United States was #44. The lowest-ranking countries were Eritrea, North Korea, Turkmenistan, China, Djibouti, Vietnam, Iran, Syria, Laos, and Cuba and Mar-A-Largo

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index

[Jumper1]

For context-
Russia ranked 150.
Ukraine 97

[BC]

I don't know, I'm not an EU'ian.

Pat said Russian News/Propaganda are being forbidden, ML asked how. 
I posted news about being delisted. I don't know if they have freedom
of the Press in the EU, I sort of doubt it. You can't have real freedom
of the Press in socialism.

Sure we have freedom of the press here.  The only difference is that in the EU those exercising such rights carry more responsibility.

Don't forget that many parts of the EU were once plagued with USSR and Nazism/fascist propaganda.  Lessons are still being learned in the US, with "fake news" propaganda spouted by high-level government officials.

If your "socialism" remark refers to countries that were part of or associated with the USSR, indeed most were socialist countries with a press controlled by the government. 

It is interesting that many who complain about perceived infringements on a free press use the same propaganda techniques as Russia does today.  There's a sucker born every minute.  Some even lurk around here.

[Grumpy]

A long but interesting read on the Russian mindset from a lecture in 2018.

http://ricochet.com/1214468/finnish-intelligence-officer-explains-the-russian-mindset/

[ML]

A long but interesting read on the Russian mindset from a lecture in 2018.

http://ricochet.com/1214468/finnish-intelligence-officer-explains-the-russian-mindset/

Very good article.  Much of it we have picked up here and there over the years, but this is more comprehensive.

[Steven1971]

A depressing article about creeps trying to take advantage of the UK scheme to house Ukrainian refugees. Although I regret the slowness of our system it is perhaps for the best to filter out those who would prey.


Single British men offer beds to female refugees

Ukrainian refugees using Facebook groups to seek a safe home in the UK are being put at risk of sexual exploitation, a Times investigation reveals.

Within minutes of posting a message on the largest Facebook group for UK hosts, an undercover Times reporter posing as Natalya, 22, from Kyiv was bombarded with inappropriate and sexually suggestive messages from men seeking relationships.

Some men lied about having several bedrooms in their one-bed homes while another proposed sharing a bed, writing: “I have a large bed. We could sleep together.” Another sent a voice note that said: “I am ready to help you and maybe you can help me also.”

Natalya posted that she was searching for a safe home and sponsorship on several Facebook groups, including UK Accommodation for Ukrainian refugees, which has 50,000 members.

Three minutes later, a man whose profile photograph is a tattooed torso, messaged to say: “Are you single?”

The 47-year-old repeatedly proposes a relationship, saying “I [will] marry with you”, and adding that, as Natalya’s “sponsor”, he would take to the sofa in his one-bed flat, while she slept in his bedroom. “I sleep on sofa,” he wrote. “Don’t worry. I am not [a] sex maniac. I am not that kind of m[a]n.”

In total, 41 of the 75 private messages sent to Natalya over two days were from single men who lived alone.

Under the government Homes for Ukraine scheme, British hosts must link up with Ukrainian refugees themselves, leaving tens of thousands of people to resort to unregulated Facebook groups to connect.

A government-backed matching service run by the Reset charity offers to match UK hosts with refugees but has been operating for only a week. Those who want to move to the UK must have a sponsor before applying for a visa.

A 43-year-old chef in London messaged the undercover reporter to say he could offer a “small space” close to central London and suggested he might be able to help with a waitressing job.

He sent pictures of the home showing his studio flat but not the proposed bedroom for the refugee. Asked what the bed was like and where Natalya would sleep, he dodged the question before suggesting they could share a bed. “I have a large bed. We could sleep together,” he wrote.

He said that there was only one room for two people in the flat and said he would expect to have a physical relationship. Natalya said: “What if I never want to be physical?” He said he was not offering sponsorship to a person unwilling to have sex but said this would be “with the consent of both”.

He claimed to have “passed all the safe checks” to be a member of the matching groups, meaning he had not been blocked by the volunteer administrators of the Facebook groups.

When confronted by a reporter, the man insisted he had a second bed in the studio flat. “I can help someone. I will be happy to do so. And if later that person falls in love with me. That fate will tell. but all that is spoken between two adults,” he said. He said he was single, and “if the right woman arrives I will be happy to meet her. I have no doubts about that”.

Government guidance says people applying to be a sponsor have to pass a Police National Computer check. Once a refugee is paired with a sponsored host, Disclosure and Barring Service checks on adult hosts are required.

Other men contacting the reporter claimed to have large houses available but later admitted there was only a single bedroom.

One, a 30-year-old PhD student, offered a “3 bed home in [a] nice town … for 1 person.” He sent a screenshot showing that he was registered to the official scheme. A reporter asked for a video of his home — it showed a flat with just one bedroom.

Another man proposed an arrangement in which a Ukrainian refugee would pretend he was an “ ‘immediate family member’ of yours. For example as your unmarried partner. Just for pretending, so I can sort my immigration status.” He said he was willing to pay £3,000. In return, he added: “I can help you with sponsor[ship] or anything else in England.”

Louise Calvey, the head of services and safeguarding at Refugee Action, said: “What we have is a government-run scheme that is leaving women at risk of sexual exploitation.”

Local councils are instructed to make an in-person check on sponsor homes before a refugee arrives “wherever possible”, but Refugee Action has raised concerns that they are not always taking place in person.

The charity said some local councils were conducting “desktop audits” or virtual checks using their computer to look at photos of the home.

Further visits are recommended at the council’s discretion.

“Criminal record checks do not pick up sexual predators who have no criminal record, allowing them to register and pass checks to sponsor a refugee in their home,” Calvey added.

“If the scheme continues in this manner we have no doubt that some refugees may be placed into very dangerous situations by the Homes for Ukraine scheme,” she said.

Patricia Durr, chief executive of Every Child Protected Against Trafficking, said she was “hugely concerned about the lack of safeguards and protections in the Homes for Ukraine scheme”.

The Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities said: “We have designed our Homes for Ukraine scheme to have specific safeguards in place, including robust security and background checks on all sponsors, by the Home Office and local authorities.”

Meta said: “Attempts by a small number of people to exploit [Facebook] groups to abuse those seeking safety is something we’re taking very seriously, and we’ll take action on any content which violates our policies.”

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/single-british-men-offer-beds-to-female-refugees-d369hl6r7

[Grumpy]

 Bill Browder, once a major investor in Russia, discusses what influences Vladimir Putin and whether punishing the oligarchs around him could help end his aggression in Ukraine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/09/business/dealbook/09db-browder-russia-santions.html

[2tallbill]

"You can't have real freedom
of the Press in socialism. "

In 2021, the countries which ranked highest on the Press Freedom Index were Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Costa Rica, the Netherlands, Jamaica, New Zealand, Ireland, Portugal, and Switzerland. The United States was #44. The lowest-ranking countries were Eritrea, North Korea, Turkmenistan, China, Djibouti, Vietnam, Iran, Syria, Laos, and Cuba and Mar-A-Largo

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index

Although the methodology is suspect, your link mostly supports my post.
Russia is 150 out of 180.

[krimster2]

and yet the top three with highest level of press freedom are "European social democracies"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
so no, it actually doesn't exactly jive with your Fox indoctrination...

in case you hadn't noticed, democracy is under assualt in America
"Stop The Steal" is all about stealing the vote
along with district gerryymandering and voter suppression and billions in "dark money" to gain political influence
you're ok with that, though...

[Boethius]

Although the methodology is suspect, your link mostly supports my post.
Russia is 150 out of 180.

Russia isn't socialist.

[Patagonie]

A long but interesting read on the Russian mindset from a lecture in 2018.

http://ricochet.com/1214468/finnish-intelligence-officer-explains-the-russian-mindset/

Yep, very good

[2tallbill]

and yet the top three with highest level of press freedom are "European social democracies"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
so no, it actually doesn't exactly jive with your Fox indoctrination...

Your statement doesn't fit the facts, I was conservative before Fox was created.

Second, the methodology of measuring freedom of the press in your link is
very suspect. The best way to measure freedom of the press is to see what
they do about weirdo's and far out wackos. If they let the wackos print what
they want then they have a high level of freedom. If they don't then they
have a low level of freedom.

Nobody likes Nazi symbols or denying the holocaust but  Austria, Germany,
Hungary, Poland and Romania also ban elements associated with Nazism,
such as the display of Nazi symbols.

They don't ban the tenants of Nazism which is very much like the DNC (except
for the racist stuff) in the USA or liberal parties of Europe. Democratic governing 
along with woke companies like Facebook or Google are almost exactly the same
as the German Nazi party of the late 1930's.

Apr 19, 2007 — BRUSSELS — The European Union approved legislation Thursday
that would make denying the Holocaust punishable by jail sentences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial

The Russian model of Government is very much like Nazism as well. The Oligarch
and their relationships with the government is almost identical.

[krimster2]

Beel,

you have the right to pee…
just not in a public pool

if you feel strongly about your absolute right to free speech
then I invite you to go into the black section of a major US metropolitan city
and shout out the “N-Word” as loud as you can…

no, why not?
oh, I see, you're afraid it might provoke violence against YOU...
but you're OK if iunrestricted free speech promotes violence towards someone else
especially if that person is "different" from you...
I see...

[2tallbill]

if you feel strongly about your absolute right to free speech
then I invite you to go into the black section of a major US metropolitan city
and shout out the “N-Word” as loud as you can…

We were talking about freedom of the press.

oh, I see, you're afraid it might provoke violence against YOU...
but you're OK if unrestricted free speech promotes violence towards someone else
especially if that person is "different" from you...
I see...

Sticks and stones can break my bones but words do not equal violence.
That's a silly, and inaccurate liberal notion.

oh, I see,

The slippery slope of your argument is how woke social justice snowflakes 
started getting triggered and excused them shutting anyone down or even
wrecking lives of people with even slightly different views than them.

True lefty's believe that you can put people in jail who disagree with them.