Estonia

[DKMM]

Hello all,  greetings from Estonia.

Here I am starting my 2nd TR only 2.5 months since my last one.  As most of you know, I'm the guy that booked a 10 day trip to the carib with a girl that i met once before and we are "just friends".  if you want more detail about her, its in my post called "friends"... a short explanation is:

J is the 1st girl i corresponded with from the FSU.  we did not click online, barely talked over a period of 5 months.  i made other plans, met other girls and did my trip in September called a Tale of Two Cities.  J was the 1st girl i met there, as she happened to move to moscow 2 weeks before i arrived.  i walked away from that meeting thinking she was unimpressed and i did not care because i was focused on others.  She kept in contact with me after the trip though and to my surprise she sprung the carib idea on me, offering to pay her half.  i still don't understand why, when she knows guys there who can pay to go with her but instead she chose me.  Anyhoo, we are just friends although she told me that she will only start any relationship with a man as friends.

Fast forward till 2 weeks ago.  Here I am surfing the net the night before thanksgiving and she pops online.  She was distressed because she was home and her family was very worried about her trip with me.  basically she barely knows me, and mom was very upset with her (she's only 21 and never had a serious boyfriend).  so i tried different options but she was not receptive.  Finally, I suggested I visit Estonia to meet them.  She said Great yes please come here!  ok so i checked out prices, it was cheap and what the heck i could squeeze in a long weekend.  I also already sunk over 2 grand into the carib trip so i viewed this as protecting my investment.

She also wanted to make sure that we don't present ourselves as anything but just friends to her parents and also to make up that we are staying in seperate rooms (which I fortunately never had to do).  That's fine with me, because my only goal for the weekend was to get her parents to like me.  After i agreed to that, we really started getting along great.  we talked everyday for a couple hours (chatted online mostly) and i got to the point where i was happy to have a friend like her.  I was thinking ok this is a great rehersal at least.  And she began pooring her heart out to me, sharing her troubles.  Which we all know is a good sign to get from these girls.

So 2 days ago, off I went on this last minute journey...

[DKMM]

I flew over the pond sitting next to a Kazakh which was really cool.  Very interesting people.  Then I waited forever for my connection and finally got on the plane to Tallinn.  What amazing sights!  I mean it was amazing, all the women under 40 were total babes.  I was fortunate enough to sit by one who took a peculiar interest in me.  Single American young guy coming to Estonia in the middle of winter?  She knew what I was up to.

At the airport I realized just how far this place has come.  I can tell why it has mostly dried up as a RW destination because everything was very nice, much nicer than Russia.  Its too bad because the women are so beautiful.  After I walked around the 1st night I realized that J is actually only a little above average here because of the amazing beauty of these women.  It was almost too good to be true, even diehard veterans of this scene would be impressed here.

I knew J would arrive in the morning and needed to get some personal business out of the way so I planned on a self tour in the morning.  I had talked with her while she was on the train so I knew when to expect to see her.  She was pretty excited about showing me her city, or so I thought...

[IAmZon]

Now this is a TR with a plot!

[DKMM]

After a very nice time exploring (this is a total mix of soviet and western european type of city), we finally meet up in the early afternoon.  she picked me up in her parent's car.  i could tell they just washed it because its the first clean car i saw yet.  we drove around and parked near the old town.  we take off and its already bad because she declares that she only wants to talk in russian because English is hurting her brain.  after 5 minutes she realizes my Russian is not good enough to understand most of what she is talking about, so she goes back to English.  we went around town but she seemed impatient because i did not know where to go.  hello, its her hometown!!  Yes the trait is universal, these girls expect you to know where to go even when you visit them.  I came prepared though so i started just telling her where i wanted to go and that seemed to work great!  

(btw sorry for the infrequent capitalization of words, the shift key is off on this keyboard)

We toured around and we got used to each other after about an hour.  but at this point we also ran out of things to talk about.  i tried using my humor but she only got it about 1/3 the time.  so with the language barrier and the fact we already knew each other pretty well there wasn't a whole lot to talk about.

she finally took me on a short car tour then her dad suggested for her (because she doesn't ever know what she wants to do!!) that we go to a museum.  its a neat one, but she actually doesn't like it.  she only took me there because her dad thought i'd like it.  i started to figure out that she doesn't seem to like many things that much or maybe doesn't like to hang out with me.  that's also the impression i got after moscow so i was shocked when she wanted to go the the carib with me... its soo hard to tell because we were both tired and a not used to each other.

Slowly though, we started getting along better and she seemed to warm up.  we headed for her parents place for dinner a little after 6pm.

[DKMM]

At this point I'm dog tired but doing my best.  I forgot how bad the jet lag is!  Note to newbies, do not meet the parents the 1st day!  Or if you do, don't wait till late when you are out of mind and half asleep...

We get to her parents and wow i'm impressed.  i've done this a few times before so it was familiar but this place was so nice.  i knew she was well off, but she was not kidding, its a very nice place even by american standards.  I'd guess that her family income is probably in the 60-80k range which is lower upper class for here.

This was my first unkrainian home visit so things i read on this board kept popping up in my mind.  the slippers thing was first.  then, harkening back to eric's veronezh  TR, she showed me how to wash my hands before dinner!  she took it so seriously but i breezed through all this thanks to my research on RWD.   

Dinner was great but i wasn't hungry.  not due to nerves but rather jet lag i'm afraid.  i recall now why i lost weight on my moscow trip... i ate what i could and gave it my best to eat and impress them.  i mean what the hey, play to win right!?  And she seemed pleased for the 1st time, but again hard to tell what she was pleased about, seeing her parents again or me.

The usual questions came, but they have been to America so it was easier.  after dinner came presents time.  unlike in russia, this time i came loaded with presents.  that seemed to work very well, and i felt good about not going overboard but still managing to give more than i received.  We then had desert and i was fading fast.  And J was too, she eventually couldn't keep up translating.  We took a couple pictures and called it a night, having an invitation to return for breakfast in the morning and she will stay with me till i fly out.

When we returned to my hotel, she gave me her payment for the carib trip, a grand in cold hard American cash.  Now that was cool because it solidifies her commitment to going.  If I were an a$$ I could ditch her and become the 1st guy on here to scam a FSU girl.     totally joking!   

Soooo, there really is no spark, and she's not the same fun girl that i chatted with every night at all.  A lesson to be learned here is the obvious one, you can talk forever without meeting but in person the chemistry can be totally different.  and it was!  but for me i'm still looking forward to the rest of this trip and i know our trip to the carib is at least going to happen and can't be that bad (can it??).  finally, to be honest i do like being friends with her so that's cool.  but at this point i wish i had not booked the carib trip and instead used the time to pursue other girls that want to get serious.  oh well, who knows what tomorrow will bring.  and i guess it doesn't matter too much because we are meeting up in only 17 days, might as well make the best of it!

[jb]

DKMM

I forgot how bad the jet lag is!

Soooo, there really is no spark, and she's not the same fun girl that i chatted with every night at all.  A lesson to be learned here is the obvious one, you can talk forever without meeting but in person the chemistry can be totally different.  and it was!  but for me i'm still looking forward to the rest of this trip and i know our trip to the carib is at least going to happen and can't be that bad (can it??).  finally, to be honest i do like being friends with her so that's cool.  but at this point i wish i had not booked the carib trip and instead used the time to pursue other girls that want to get serious.  oh well, who knows what tomorrow will bring.  and i guess it doesn't matter too much because we are meeting up in only 17 days, might as well make the best of it!

I hate to say I told you so,,,, but I told you so~! On both counts.

[DKMM]

Indeed you did jb, but a beautiful woman can make a man make poor decisions.  at least i know for certain that she's going to come to the tropics with me... but again is that a good thing?  you would think so if you saw her.

anyways, i'm about to embark on my last 6 hours with J and probably with her parents too. 

[jb]

Indeed you did jb, but a beautiful woman can make a man make poor decisions.

For those who are not familiar with the term, this is called "Little Head Thinking"

Classic.

[Bruce]

DKMM - wake up and smell the coffee.  Read the av8r's trip report to get yourself going in the right direction.

[Kuna]

DKMM - wake up and smell the coffee.  Read the av8r's trip report to get yourself going in the right direction.

With all due respect, I find some of the posts in here insulting at times.

I don't know DKMM but I have swapped some mail with him and he was well aware of the dangers in taking this trip.  You're not aware of his unique financial position and you might not remember his earlier posts but he said something to the effect of "I hope there's more, there might not be more, but I'm going to take a punt on it".

The fact that he's gone WAY OUT on a limb is certainly the sign of an optimist, but the only thing that would make him a fool is if he couldn't afford it. Whether he can or can't afford it is an issue only for him.

I personally don't agree with his approach because I'm the sort of person who's looking for a more efficient path to reality, but I don't think we need to be insulting.

I know that the "Experienced" men in here always post with the best intentions at heart, but the execution sometimes leaves a lot to be desired.

I put the lack of connection with this girl down to age.  We're all adults and we can all make our own decisions but for me, I just wouldn't consider a girl under 25 and the closer to 30 yrs old the better (and that includes going over 30)! 

I'm 38 and I've found from personal experience at home that no matter how cute, "mature", sexy or exciting the young ones appear at the beginning, their lack of life experience makes it a challenge to COMMUNICATE.

Life experience does interesting things to people, and those with more of it have much to share with the other members on this board. I just think that a little more tact would scare less of the lurkers away and a more inviting persona might actually attract more diversity to the daily posts.

I've read the doubters comments on several of the burgeoning relationships and while I think a reality check is a good thing, celebrating failure does nothing except make little people feel big.  Not so nice when you think of it like that huh!

Just my two cents worth... if you want to give me change I'm here waiting!   

Kuna

[IAmZon]

And while this may not be Ms. Right, and while DKMM may now wish he was investing his time differently ... THIS IS STILL ONLY THE SECOND QUARTER.

DKMM, enjoy the game.  Who knows what tomorrow may bring.  Try to have the best time possible in the carib (be careful not to start to like her too much).  Hell!  I have 5 trade shows scheduled in January and February ... I'd be happy to trade places with you, even if this turns out NOT to be everything you seek.

[Bruce]

Kuna, written like a man who has never been to the FSU.

[jb]

Hell~! I'm just jealous about him going to the Islands.  And just for spite I'm gonna go spend the winter in Kansas.

Mamma D, look out~! I ain't Santa Claus, but I'll be comin' to town!!!

[tim 360]

Interesting beginning DKMM,  please do continue your report.  tim360

[Gator]

DKMN,

Thank you for sharing your trip report.  I enjoyed it.  You seem to be an open and honest man - admirable qualities.   

Although you seem to disclose more than most men, I still have trouble following your story, or perhaps my problem is not understanding your rationale. 

I read your “Two Cities” trip report and this is what I can surmise:

1.  You seem open and honest – admirable qualities. 
2.  The women you date are very young – 19 to 21.  Because of the women’s age and some other things you wrote I assume you are also very young – I probably have neckties older than you.
3.  Although young, you have the money and time to take trips to the FSU and you even know some Russian; thus, you are not an idiot – you just march to a different drummer.
4.  The FSU women you meet probably are very beautiful (I read words such as “model” and “athlete”), so you have set high goals.
5.  None of these beautiful women have really jumped for you (e. g., your favorite vaporized after your trip, women left you and Larry early in the evening, etc.).  This makes me think that you are either out of your league or inexperienced with beautiful women and can not advance the “sell” much less close it or not being more selective in the women you met).
6.  There is no connection between meeting J for one day in Moscow and becoming friends and deciding to spend a week together in the Carib (what I am missing – am I confused by the aliases?).
7.  The weekend trip to Estonia was probably necessary but not productive.
8.  You and J seemingly do not share much in common.  The key example is your trouble with humor even though she understands English.  This is not good because my Cossack girlfriend knows maybe 200-400 words of English, yet we make each other laugh and laugh together frequently.  She just may be humorless or not that smart.

I agree with your conclusion that you should not be going to the Carib? However, it is too late to change.   





I did a trip such as yours one time and it was the trip from hell.  I wanted to meet for a weekend and she insisted on a “romantic journey”.  It sounded good to me at the time in the jaded state I was in.   Should have limited it to a weekend and been in control of events rather than letting events control me..  Although sex was okay, my “date” became so truculent that I separated our beds after the second day and barely spoke to her.  Regardless of how beautiful a woman can be, a man can get very weary very quickly from taking her crap. 

Go on your trip with an open mind because for some reason J does want to spend the time with you and did pay a large part of her share (that is remarkable).  Nevertheless, be prepared that your trip may not produce what you expect or anything close to it. 

Where are going?  I will be in Punta Cana 27 Dec – 9 Jan.  You maybe could use some fatherly advice and J some motherly input from an older RW-AM couple.

Although Bruce is perhaps too heavy handed with his criticism, his point I guess is that it is best to meet many, many women.  I agree with this for men who are not highly experienced with women in general or not sure of what they seek. Even Jerry took the power dating route although he has made several trips to the FSU and was engaged for a long time to one FSUW.

I also already sunk over 2 grand into the carib trip so i viewed this as protecting my investment.

It is important to remove this thought from your mind.  As with stock investing, do not keep chasing something just because you have already invested money into it.  It is best to invest additional money into better stocks rather than “average down”.

DKMN, some men here will criticize you with regard to spending money to meet only a few RW who are not working out.  If you are having fun, do not worry about it.  Each of us is different.  I am sure that I have spent more money than 95% of the men in dating RW and I am not married, nor engaged.  Yet, I have had a great time and still do.  In retrospect, I can honestly state that life over the past four years would have been rather dull without my RW experiences. However, I am one of those men who literally has done everything in life, and usually very successfully, and I do seek new adventures for my energy.

[Kuna]

Kuna, written like a man who has never been to the FSU.

Bruce,

Wake up and smell the coffee. 

Not everyone is going to follow the same path.  The journey can be an important part of learning more about ourselves and the women we all seem to think are so attractive.  If DKMM learnt something from this trip it's probably money well spent. The worst error would be the one discovered AFTER marriage.

By the way you're rightabout one thing, I haven't been to FSU... but I will never feel a need to celebrate failure.

Kuna

[Bruce]

Kuna, until you make your first trip to the FSU why don't you please stop giving guys advice on what to do and not to do in the FSU  . 

I wish you all the luck in the world with your plans.  I have learned from experience.  I have learned from six years posting and reading boards that those who make the WOVO post usually do not connect or even worse, delude themselves into a connection that ends up in a miserable divorce. 

In general, those looking for hotties and or throwing their money around end up with nothing but tall tales to tell. 

[Kuna]

Kuna, until you make your first trip to the FSU why don't you please stop giving guys advice on what to do and not to do in the FSU  . 

I wish you all the luck in the world with your plans.  I have learned from experience.  I have learned from six years posting and reading boards that those who make the WOVO post usually do not connect or even worse, delude themselves into a connection that ends up in a miserable divorce. 

In general, those looking for hotties and or throwing their money around end up with nothing but tall tales to tell. 

Bruce, 

Give yourself an uppercut mate!  You've missed the point.  I'm not giving him advice, I'm giving YOU advice. DKMM willingly laid out the facts (and his "error") for everyone to see. He didn't have to do it. He KNOWS he's made a mistake. There's no point rubbing it in.

His TR is now another piece of historical evidence of a trip that ended with less than desirable results.  Future visitors to RWD can read it and take the experience on board just like they would if they'd met him in person.  That means they may ignore it, or they may accept it... That's up to them.

You on the other hand can't see your mistake, but I won't rub it in.

Kuna

[Gator]

Bruce,
I do appreciate your comments.  Opinions of married men do and should hold more water than those from novices.  Nevertheless, there are better ways to make your valuable points.  DKMN seems like a nice man, and he even admitted to JB that he was wrong.  How many men have the character to do that?

Kuna,
You will have to forgive Bruce - he is from New York.  Their style differs from other Americans.  Yet I agree with you even though you don’t know Jack $hit     We should not insult men who take the time to report a trip.  All reports are lessons for all. Insults discourage other men from reporting and probably discourage DKMN from posting future updates, which I would like to read. 

[jb]

BTW, FWIW, I conveyed my thoughts to DKMM via PM.  I did not want any of my negativity to sour a T/R,,, and it was advice I gave PRIOR to the trip anyway.  Not hindsight.

[Kuna]

BTW, FWIW, I conveyed my thoughts to DKMM via PM.  I did not want any of my negativity to sour a T/R,,, and it was advice I gave PRIOR to the trip anyway.  Not hindsight.

jb...  I thought you might have PM'ed him.     Through watching your posts and reading your opinions I've come to understand you a little better... I think!

I didn't want to be critical of anyone (including Bruce) but i really think that the lurkers (just like I was for a long time) might be discouraged from posting their "dumb questions" if they see ridicule after a newbie makes a mistake.

The point is, less experienced members (Like me, Rivardco, DKMM, Avi8or, and others) are here because we appreciate the information and advice we get from the experienced posters.  You just can't find that sort of information anywhere else on the web.  My trip would be vastly different if I hadn't listened to some of the "wise minds" in here.

I still expect to make some mistakes on my trip but that's a part of the learning experience.  I have new questions that come to mind every day but some things just can't be asked, they need to be experienced.

Anyway...  even though DKMM's lack of success was "painful" to read about there's certainly some lessons to be learned in there.

He might be sitting next to his future wife on a plane right now... Who knows what strange twists life takes when you put yourself "out there".

Kuna

[groovlstk]

Kuna,

What frustrates the experienced posters here is seeing the same mistakes made over and over again; of new guys asking for advice and then ignoring it in favor of the same risky schemes that left countless men before them with pie on their faces. 

DKMM is young and has the resources to try again should things not work out. Some guys, myself included, had to screw up on our own before we learned to listen.

However, think about this: If his girl was more enterprising and less ethical, more desperate and less sure of her future, she'd have him wrapped around her finger at this point and he'd be racing to Fedex to put his I-129F in the mail.

[Bruce]

Kuna,  if a guy reads carefully he will not make the same mistakes as he ordinarily would.  This is not a NY thing I am doing.  It helps those searching.  If guys are too afraid to come on this board and ask questions out of fear of ridicule they need not buy a ticket to visit the FSU because ultimately they will end up far short of their expectations (though I would argue still better for the experience).

The guys who come on and cheerlead (that a boy crowd) any guy who obviously made huge mistakes are hurting every other guy involved in the process of meeting, establishing a relationship with, marrying and staying married to a girl from the FSU.  There is a well known board where they can cheer each other on towards "penetration" and inability to hold a long term relationship with a girl from the FSU.

I've PM'd DKNM with specific advice for him.  Any newbie who thinks he can go to meet one "hottie" and or throw money around in the FSU is in for a world of long term pain.

[IAmZon]

I suggest we settle this by a good game of football!  Newbies vs. Vets

just joking ...

It cannot be overstated how much information and insight can be derived from these boards. I hope you see an ample amount of appreciation and respect communicated to those who deserve it.

I clearly understand, however, the frustration one must feel by seeing the same mistakes made time and time again.  Having said that ... and assuming DKMN has the financial resources to spend responsibly ... I love the call.  Heart over head (or little head over big head. Time will tell)

[Gator]

Did DKMM "throw money around in the FSU"?  From what I read he stayed in an average apartment and fed his date at McDonald's.  He even got her to pay 1/3 of his upcoming holiday with her. 

Yes, he did take a weekend trip to FSU - too short to cover the expense of air fare.

Whether he is recklessly "chasing a hottie" depends upon the inner qualities of the hottie and a relative comparison of the hottie with DKMM.

I am still confused as to how DKMM went from a lackluster, one day date with his Estonian woman to a holiday in the Caribbean.  He said they talked a lot so maybe they found some common ground.