The Previous Research Project - Cyberbrides in America (Planet-Love)

[Turboguy]

OK, Dan,
You got most of it right and I have long stopped trying to convince Turbo & Doug of anything.  But that is not the point. (To me any way)  I see them as a real threat to newbies here with their "sugar plum fairy" thinking that simply does not work as evidenced by both of their track records.  Every time I point out the errors of their advice, we go back into the same ol crap.  How do I point out the bad advice, as I admittedly see it, with going through the same outrageous debate again?
KenC

KenC, if you think the real threat is to newbies here then you are really going about things as wrong as possible. 

You are the one that drags this into many posts in many threads.  If it were not for that newbies would not even know about the situation that you think is such a long shot. 

I don't exactly start each post with "Here is my trip report with my fiancee who is much much younger than me"  When I am with VWRW I don't even think about her age or the age difference.  From what she tells me, she does not either.  We have had long discussions about the problems it will present in our future and have arrived at solutions that we are both happy with.  We are aware of the challenges it will present. 

I have no idea what newbies do think when they read these things.  I hope it does not encourage them because all situations are different.   I would never maintain that what I am sure will work for us would work for everyone.  I know they would not be reading it if it were not for you and jb.   If someone says, oh, it is working for TG maybe I will go hunt for some young chick then it is because you called attention to it.  To us, we are just two people in love.

I am not saying or implying that I have any interest in hiding the age difference.  I don't.  I also don't have an interest in bragging about it or recommending it to others. 

We have a very wonderful relationship.  We think alike about all things.  Neither of us cares about the age difference or is even aware of it.   

Truthfully from what observations of the reactions of others I have seen we don't seem to make that unreasonable of a couple.  In Egypt people didn't say "Would you and your daughter like a camel ride"  They said, Would you and your wife like a camel ride"  No hesitation at all.   I could be wrong but I would be a little surprised if someone snatched my aviatar pic and posted it somewhere as an example of a mismatched couple.  I don't see us as being any more mismatched that a lot of RW-AM couples.  If we are then fine.  We are happy and that is all I care about.

So, if you are really that worried about newbies hearing reasons why I think it will work, then you need to stop bringing it to their attention.  Otherwise talk about it all you want.  It does not bother me and it most certainly will not change my mind.

[Turboguy]

Kuna,

It's one thing to defend the weak, quite another to encourage them to jump off a cliff.  This is the issue I have with the "Sunshine Boys".

To say that KenC's, (or mine), kind of tough love doesn't work, is a reach.  There are a few very successful marriages represented here on this board today which are going great because someone like Ken knocked those romantic stars out of their eyes and made them see reality.   I won't name names, they can come forward if they wish, but rest assures, P/G is not the first "Poster Child" for failure who tasted the clue bat.  Some people are able to learn from the experience of other, some are not.

And while I'm on the subject, I have nothing against "Shop Girls"; for those who can't read between the lines, "Shop Girl" is a synonym for "women who are unsuitable as transatlantic/transoceanic wife material".  By the very nature of the human beast, there are some people who are so provincial, so parochially oriented, they will not thrive outside the neighborhood where they were raised.  I know of at least one man who posts here the encountered such a woman, it took him a couple of wasted trips to Tver to figure out that as long as he was in her town, she was a great g/f, but she'd never make an effort to learn English or make any of those major changes in her life.  Why a woman like that will join an agency is anybody's guess.  A lot of time and money can be pounded down a rat hole if a man cannot read the writing on the wall.

Every point and counter point posted by KenC and me in this debate was the result of some idiotic, romantic, nonsensical, whimsical, effort to protray a shop girl as worldly and sophisticated.  I never bought it, and I don't think Ken did either.

Talk about not learning I would have thought PG would have taught you about the futility of the clue bat and tough love.  If there is a major reason PG failed it is the use of the clue bat and tough love.  PG's failure is as much your fault as his.

[jb]

Talk about not learning I would have thought PG would have taught you about the futility of the clue bat and tough love.  If there is a major reason PG failed it is the use of the clue bat and tough love. PG's failure is as much your fault as his.

Now, now,,, T/G.  That is total BS and you know it.

[KenC]

May I be the newbie that takes a neutral but definitive position here?

I'm sure Rivardco will agree, but I don't profess to speak for him... (He's a marketer... only God knows what twist he would put on this!) :hairraising:   

If the intention is to ensure us newbies don't take TG and PG's words as gospel,  it's worked.

The voracity of the arguments I see in here is FAR more passionate than I'd expect, and more than I think is necessary at times.

I'm not criticising anyone, but please let me make the following comments without anyone taking offence:

1. I can see jb and KenC trying to speak the truth and appealing to common sense. I can also see the frustration growing with every post because the "other guys" aren't accepting the good advice. The style of communication though isn't ever likely to make these two guys respond like you want them to respond. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink";

2. I believe, that because of the way the arguments are presented both TG and PG are defending what is, at times, difficult or impossible to defend. I'm not criticising either of these guys because I don't know enough of their personal situations, but from what I do know the initial advice offered sounded realistic and balanced.  They are adults and will make their own choices though... and they'll live with the consequences.

I am a passionate Alfa Romeo owner and I actually imagine that the weird little electrical faults and intermittent fluid leaks are a part of my Bella's "personality".

I weighed up the options and chose the car I thought best at the time, and I'll damn well defend it until it's a pile of nuts and bolts. There are things I LOVE about this car.  It's like nothing else I've ever driven (and I've had some very nice cars)

You know what???  My next car will be an Alfa even though it's the most expensive car to maintain that I've ever owned.

(Actually, my next car will be an Alfa IF I don't marry in the foreseeable future because I know most women won't tolerate a husbands car that costs more to maintain than she does)   

I'm not saying PG and TG are right or wrong.  They've taken paths I wouldn't take but I'm not in their position.

KenC and jb, be assured, anyone reading this will understand what you're saying. That's the important thing.  TG and PG will never acknowledge that you're right, or probably right, because they might be Alfa lovers too!

Hopefully they'll listen to your advice because I think it's good advice, but if they don't, they make their decisions with all of the good advice at hand.

What I think is "unfortunate" is when a relationship is in it's genesis and two people (TG and VWRW) are in here sharing their experiences and there is a public stoning taking place.  I see TG defending vwrw at times and I don't blame him.  His defense is hard to justify but I think the attacks are hard to justify too.

Do you wish them well?  I'm sure you do! 

Are you as confident as they are that they're making the right decision?  I know you're not.

Now, why don't we all have a group hug and get back to the business at hand...  Helping ME have a successful trip to Ukraine in January/February and making ME the happiest man alive! 

OK, I make light of it...  but I think everyone has value to contribute here, including vwrw, but not everyone will accept the advice that is offered!

I highly value the input and advice of the "experienced and successful guys", and I also appreciate the optimism of people like TG and PG.

I want to reiterate something I said a while ago...

THIS COMMUNITY is a powerful vehicle to offer advice, share experiences, gain experience, develop knowledge and pursue a relationship choice that MANY on the outside disapprove of.

We're all the same, but we're all different.  We're all a part of the same community though!

I, for one am very thankful I found it!

Kuna

Kuna,
There is so much history in this matter that it occassionally still flares up.  I am glad that you will not accept advice from TG & PG as gospel as that is my main concern here.  I have long given up on them ever changing some of their thinking.  Even though PG has reversed his stance on somethings.

 I feel a sense of responsibility to this forum to point out what I think is misleading advice
KenC

[Turboguy]

Now, now,,, T/G.  That is total BS and you know it.

No I don't know it at all jb.  I think the major reason for PG's failure is jb.  We are re-hashing stuff that has been said so many times that I feel like a broken record  (for the younger set that is an antique version of the CD, it came after the cylinders) 

PG in the beginning openly said he was confused over some issues.  Instead of listening and offering helpful advice and trying to discusses his feelings and concerns you and the others started to swing the clue bat with demeaning statements like I quoted before.  I apologize to PG for this comparison but it was like trapping a rat in the corner.   You and Anono and the clue bat crew drove him to no other choice. 

 I feel a sense of responsibility to this forum to point out what I think is misleading advice
KenC

 

If you are talking about PG even PG admits that he made some mistakes.  I agree with that too.

If you are talking about me, I have never advised anyone about relationships with an age difference.   Personally I do not see it complicating things with VWRW and me one bit.  It has no affect on our relationship at all.   

As far as "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink";  If you are talking about trying to tell me this relationship is a mistake you would have to be a raving lunatic to think that you would get me to drink that water.  I have never taken that as your goal but if it is save your breath.

[jb]

You and Anono and the clue bat crew drove him to no other choice. 

A man always has other choices.  Anono was the one who demeaned Larisa's physical appearance, not I.  However, I still see the Ralph Cramden personality in PG. Funny that they are both bus drivers.  We did try to gently point out the red flags at first, PG returned on the attack.  That's when things headed south. 

I cannot for the life of me understand how you think you can pin that train wreck on me.  I did everything in my power, short of going to Phoenix and holding a gun on the man, to discourage that K-1.  She was so obviously the wrong woman for PG; everyone could see it from PG's posts except you and PG.

[Photo Guy]

The following quote is for newbies:

jb wrote:
And while I'm on the subject, I have nothing against "Shop Girls"; for those who can't read between the lines, "Shop Girl" is a synonym for "women who are unsuitable as transatlantic/transoceanic wife material".  By the very nature of the human beast, there are some people who are so provincial, so parochially oriented, they will not thrive outside the neighborhood where they were raised.  I know of at least one man who posts here the encountered such a woman, it took him a couple of wasted trips to Tver to figure out that as long as he was in her town, she was a great g/f, but she'd never make an effort to learn English or make any of those major changes in her life.  Why a woman like that will join an agency is anybody's guess.  A lot of time and money can be pounded down a rat hole if a man cannot read the writing on the wall.

Okay, so somehow jb thinks he is able to know Larisa without ever meeting her. He makes the judgment that Larisa is unsuitable wife material. How would most of you guys feel about that? This outsider from the internet tells you to drop your girlfriend because he has some delusional vision of who she is. It isn't fair and it's makes a lot of bad assumptions about who she is -and that's why I become defensive about it. For the record, Larisa has made enormous progress in English abilities. Her ESL teacher here in Phoenix was proud of her. In Ukraine she continues to study English. I want newbies to realize just how unfair jb's criticsims can be. And how did he arrive at the conclusion she could not thrive outside of her own neighborhood?  She returned to Ukraine for a number of valid reasons- so that means she could not 'thrive' outside of her neighborhood? jb jumped to that ridiculous conclusion.

I have simply told my story without promoting any agenda or course of action. I won't allow myself or Larisa to be mischaracterized. Larisa did return to Ukraine and I'm not happy about that, but she was not the 'wrong woman' for me. jb- You don't know her. I do. Bottom line. It's laughable that you think you know who she is.

[jb]

PG,

You also rejected every single piece of constructive advice all of the married men here offered you,,, in fact, you not only rejected their thoughts and comments, you attacked them with a vengence.   Your mind was made up, and I don't truly understand why you even bothered to post anything about your experience about Larisa in the first place.  Surely you never intended to accept advice, or wanted anything other than affirmation.  If all you want is affirmation, go visit Disney World, there you will find a place called Fantasy Land.  BTW, T/G and his band of "Sunshine Boys" gave you affirmation aplenty.  Hence, you failed.  Crashed and burned.  And you still think these guys are your friends? 

I suggest, in future, if you ever have another encounter with a RW, keep the particulars to yourself.  And, above all, please don't presume to give advice to another newbie.  Your failed K-1 was not a success story, that's not what we promote here on the RWD.

[Turboguy]

My suggestion jb is that you find a new term for  "women who are unsuitable as transatlantic/transoceanic wife material".   It is confusing to the readers and they think you might mean people who work in a shop.   Of course we all know that there are some quality women who work in retail and we would not want to be confusing.

you not only rejected their thoughts and comments, you attacked them with a vengence.  

PG asked for help and advice.  Once it got to the point where the comments he was getting such as "If I had to have sex with her I would vomit" (Anono) or "She is ugly, you could do better" (you I think)  and others like that then he started to fight back.   He did not originate the attacking, you and anono did.

PG,

please don't presume to give advice to another newbie.  Your failed K-1 was not a success story, that's not what we promote here on the RWD.

To me, we promote learning.  Sometimes you need to fail, to learn.   Photo guy has made some very helpful and well thought out posts now.  He has learned and is not a newbie any more.  By the way, when is the big announcement coming that you are now the owner of RWD.   I assume it is comming, otherwise you don't have any right to say who can and can't post.  I am sure if Dan thinks PG should not be posting to help newbies he will let him know.   

[Photo Guy]

jb, you just don't like someone disagreeing with you. You don't handle it very well. I posted my experiences here at RWD because that's what the forum is for. I admitted my mistakes. However, when there are mischaracterizations and put downs, I will always point it out. As for newbies, they can read about my mistakes and learn from them. Choosing Larisa was not one of my mistakes. I know it's hard for you to understand that. Maybe you have a friend who can enlighten you.

[jb]

Let's refresh the facts.

PG's original T/R has been expunged, and is no longer available to quote from... However, in the "No Holds Barred" section we have his,    
"Who gives the best advice?" thread.  Easily checked, if anyone cares to look back on it.

In the opening post PG attacks the married posters with this assine comment;

Off the top of my head I'd say that the guys who have already married RW should know the most and have the most wisdom. But, it you look closely at that idea, you can't help wondering if a particular person only succeeded in *getting married*, period. In other words, lots of idiots can get married. It doesn't make them a relationship expert, does it? How good is their marriage?

In this post he simply says none of us have a good marriage so he isn't going to pay attention to anything anyway.

His choice.

In the 5th post of the thread, I offered the following:

PhotoGuy, I have never offered advice to you, I have merely pointed up some of the pit falls in front of you.  I NEVER rated your g/f on the 1-10 scale, I never said she was homely or ugly, I simply said I think you can do better.... That was before I knew you drove a bus for a living.  With this new information I withdraw my objections to the match. I think a bus driver and a shop girl is a terrific match.  I'm sure you'll be very happy together.

PG responded with this:

Jb, you are showing your true colors here. You are attacking me in a personal way. It is uncivilized and looks crude to the other members here. You are posing as a wise guy with sage advice, yet look at your advice and criticisms. There's a malevolent attitude surrounding your opinions. Why is that? I am sorry for you, if it is oozing out as a result of a chemical or health problem. If not, then your attitude is still malevolent and pathetic. Why not have a positive goal for your opinions? Is that too tough a challenge? Your rigid ideas about class distinctions belong back in the 19th century, not this one. You owe me an apology.  Doug

Doug, I have neither a health or a chemical problem.  I'm not a drug addict as you imply here.  Subtle attacks are still attacks. This is about the time I started to dislike your attitude.

I further stated: It was not my personal choice that you become a bus driver, that was you who made that career decision.  Most everyone here has mentioned, at least once or more times, that this is a very expensive proposition.  It takes money to court and woo a woman from abroad, lots of money.  If you feel good about seeing a woman with whom you cannot communicate with for 5 days, (not in her home town), that you can only call once a week, and you think that sums up to a serious courtship, there's not much any one can do for you.  IMHO, you are a train wreck looking for a place to happen.

This was in response to the notion that you couldn't afford to make more trips, nor did your job give you more vacation days.

Then Dan said:

John,
The tone of your message is more than a little insulting.

Well, Dan had not just been called a drug addict.

Things continue to run downhill for a bit and BC, (a very respected poster) says this:

Photo,
just think about this:
Who here has something to loose or gain?.. jb? me? or you. 
Think jb or anyone else 'round here wishes you ill will? - I think not.
It's all about informed choices.  Ask for opinion and you get it pure, unfiltered.. the choice however is and always will be yours.

No need to take offense.

The entire thread follows on with the same BS, with your cheerleader section rooting you on, urging you to jump off the cliff, and stamping on reason and logic as presented by those of who have a little actual experience on the subject.  PG, frankly, I now think you are not that bright a guy, you need to stick with women of your own class.  Do not try to trade up to a RW. You'll get screwed everytime.

jb has stopped shaking the mask, he no longer gives a shit.

[jb]

WRT T/G's comment that PG went amuk because of what I might have said,,,, T/G, you are a complete and total idiot.  I won't shake your mask any more either.

[catzenmouse]

A thought or two on this (which in all cases should have been dropped a loooong time ago)

 I may be old and pretty senile quite often but I don't remember anyone attacking or degrading Larissa except Annono. I think that when he started up PG  was pissed (rightly so) and it is hard to differentiate the good but hard advice from the crap that Annono was posting. When defend/attack modes hits us (when anyone attacks the one we care about) we tend to not distinguish too well between the participants and anyone who even seems to be putting down our lady is fair game to the sword.

 I do understand how PG felt and if I thought/felt that I was being ganged up on for no reason I would more than likely  lash out at anyone I could. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Damn hard to see when you have the helmet on and the sword up. There are some supremely valuable opinions here at RWD. Vaughn, BC, KenC, Voyager, ConnorVT, and yes, our most despised jb are some folks that when they post I read, think about, re read and do my best to absorb as they have actually done this successfully. That is a HUGE thing for me. I hope/dream/aspire to make it there. Yeah, we are doing fine and almost at the 2 year anniversary but we still have a lot to learn and go through.

 This is not easy, cheap, or quick. This is a Life Long Commitment!!! It is way past time to get over these little slights that we think may have happened. Use the knowledge here. Bleed these folks dry of what they know. Reality check needs to be our middle names in this. Pay attention, use what you can, and get over the rest of it.

Ken

[Turboguy]

That really does not mean much jb.  The original thread which no longer exists is the only thing that would put everything in context.  

Does rehashing this over and over really acomplish anything.  PG has learned a lot, the hard way, yes!  I don't disagree with you that he should have visited her more and gone to her home town and met her family.   If he would have had the family on his side it may have made a big difference.  I have no doubts if he had it to do over he would do exactly that.   I think he may look harder for someone with more English ability the next time.  I think he would agree that it would help a lot.   Still some people have been able to overcome that obsticle and others realize it does increase the risk and make it harder.  PG realizes that now too.

As far as should he look for another FSU woman, it is his choice.   What you think does not matter and he isn't going to listen anyway.   His income is suffient for the project and there are a lot of gals who would be happy to have him.  He will now be a little wiser and a little more aware of how things need to be done.  

Back to what I said in the second paragraph.  I think your purpose was to help, to keep him from making the mistakes he did.  To keep others from making those mistakes.   He made them.  He learned.  He knows you were right in a lot of the things you said.  Continuing this will do no good.  Why don't we find some new things to talk about.  

I see there are two new posts while I was writing this so Ken, I agree with you.  Anono was the worst.   I really think this should have died a long time ago.  I will just say that jb was not lilly white in it. 

jb,  Shake my mask.  That is a new one to me.  I forgot about that IQ test I took.   I am not sure how you got a peak at the results.  humm, I thought they were well hidden. 

[jb]

and yes, our most despised jb

Thanks for that....
 
OK,,,, I'll tell you what I'll do for you.  I won't post for a month.  Let's see how interesting things get without me.

I don't think I'm necessarily special, but I do think my posts are catalytically inciteful for extended thinking.  Let's just see how well the board does wthout me for a month.

You want to give it a try?

P.S.  T/G, You are still an idiot.

[jb]

But then, in a month, I may not remember you guys... have a nice life.

[joty]

I am new to this forum, I have been in as a guest but just decided to join the other day.  I have to say that I am really surprised at all the bickering that is going on here, it is like a bunch of children in a playground.  I am not sure that this is the right forum to be on, but I will give it a little more to decide.  

[Admin]

It is a perplexing problem.

Basically 4 guys, all smart - all well-intended - 2 on each 'side' - and no apparent ability to find any middle ground.

All 4 want to be responsible for providing useful and accurate information to others. All 4 have direct, first-hand experience to share and to rely upon to support their opinions/assertions.

Every one of the 4 would be (and is) welcome in my home and I would sincerely enjoy spending time with each.

In spite of the points of commonality (there are, at least, a few), there is also such deep entrenchment on each side of this debate that it does, clearly, seem destined to be a topic which will live indefinitely amongst the 'rancor files' of RWD.

I confess - I do not know what to do with this one.

Anyone (ANYONE) have any ideas?

- Dan

[TexasBoar]

Perhaps you could have all four write "I will not confuse or correllate being right all the freakin' time with the size of my penis" 1000 times? 

"Agree to disagree" would've been good, but it's been suggested and then either disregarded or outright slapped down about half a dozen times now.

In my world, we challenge each other to "holmgang" (ritual combat, generally reinterpreted as an MMA-rules sparring match for legal reasons) when it gets this bad.  I don't think that's going to fly here. 

~Boar

[Admin]

I am new to this forum, I have been in as a guest but just decided to join the other day.  I have to say that I am really surprised at all the bickering that is going on here, it is like a bunch of children in a playground.  I am not sure that this is the right forum to be on, but I will give it a little more to decide. 

Actually, if we were all like-minded, there wouldn't be much "bickering" - and there wouldn't be much learning either. One of the great strengths to be found here is the passionate diversity of opinion which allows the members to select what is worthwhile FOR THEM.

And yes - there was a great poster I saw some years ago which said "All I ever need to know I learned in kindergarten" (or something close to that) - and it is true. I also see it in my consulting practice with large companies and their executives. It is simply amazing how often I see 6 and 7-figure executives behaving in ways which would earn them a spanking by their Mom on the kindergarten playground. I see it everyday.

- Dan

[jb]

Dan,

I will happily withdraw from the RWD if the majority of the membership think my opinions are wrong to be heard by the newbie.  I guess they are when I'm listed as "the dispised jb" in a post from someone I liked and respected. 

Okay,  I'm outta here for now.  You guys have a nice life.

[Patrick]

I am new to this forum, I have been in as a guest but just decided to join the other day.  I have to say that I am really surprised at all the bickering that is going on here, it is like a bunch of children in a playground.  I am not sure that this is the right forum to be on, but I will give it a little more to decide. 

   Wow Joty, Don't take you football and leave . The event has just started. The men who are posting all go way back and have their own idea's on what is good and what is not so good. You can learn a lot here. There are many good people here and have good sound advice and will even call and speak too you on the phone if you need to talk. There are no bad people here. Stick around , I think you will like it here. Remember this, the only stupid question is one that you don't ask. Take that to the bank.

[Turboguy]

Joty, hang around.  The place gets very addicting.  You can learn more here than you will ever believe and despite the bickering you will find a lot of guys that will go way out on the limb to help you.

Joty, if you get a chance to up to the introduction part and tell us a little about yourself and where you are at in things.  We would all enjoy learning more about you.  Get involved and you will be glad you did. 

Dan, good analisis.  I have to agree, there are some nuggets in the middle of the bickering. 

jb,  Good bye.  I hope your fairwell is like SOC's.   VWRW made the comment as you know that RWD would be very boring without you.  I agree.  I may not agree with you sometimes but I agree you make it a much more interesting place.  Bear in mind when someone referred to you as the "despised jb" he did not say he dispised you.  He may well have meant that a few you consider as foolish do. 

One way or the other jb, lets cut PG a break and see how he does in the future with his new found experience and another year of seeing what works and what doesn't on RWD.  If he does foolish things in the future then start again,  fair enough?

[Photo Guy]

Truth?
It isn't true, or wise for someone who does not know me, to claim I do not have the time or money to make the necessary trips to the FSU. Totally untrue and ..how do these untrue allegations help newbies?
If you want to help newbies, simply tell them about the costs involved. It's not rocket science.

Is it okay to allow someone(Anono,KenC) to make fun of your girlfriend's appearance? 
No, I dont think so.
Is it okay to allow someone(jb) to degrade you or your girlfriend's occupation?  Again- No.
For me, it's that simple. The range of advise that you find here at RWD is very wide - all kinds of
opinions. Look to RWD's Ten Commandments for 'rules' that most of us agree on.

[ConnerVT]

There are some supremely valuable opinions here at RWD. Vaughn, BC, KenC, Voyager, ConnorVT, and yes, our most despised jb are some folks that when they post I read, think about, re read and do my best to absorb as they have actually done this successfully.

Thank you, Ken, for the kind words.  But not everyone holds these people's thoughts and opinions to such a worthy level.  I have been attacked by some of the participants in this (and previous) threads when my opinion was not what was wished to be heard.  But Ken, your's is a good endorsement for me to tossout my thoughts once again (or, as others may say, my cup of gasoline on the fire).

Anyone entering into a cross-cultural, ex-patriated relationship must have some reservation and doubts.  As it has been said before, the person without any fear is an idiot.  Relationships, marriage, and family is confusing and ever changing, even for two people from the same country, culture, and with a nearby support system.  Add language, cultural, and separation from all the family and friends of one (or more, if children are involved) the participants, and those with a high level of confidence of success are fooling themselves.

The only thing one can be truly confident of is what THEIR level of commitment to the relationship will be.  Everything else?  That will be determined in time.

That is the danger of blowing sunshine up someones @ss.  They begin to believe their own press releases.  Then others, new to this endeavor, start believing them too.

Let's look at what is on the wire now.  T/G is convinced that his new relationship will fair much better than the one that ended with her flying home only a few short months ago.  After all, he knows her better after a few weeks of intensive study and research, than KenC knows his wife of 8 years.  I'm sure he has done a better job of vetting this time.  After all, the last K-1 was with a woman T/G himself admits has mental health issues.  Wonder how that got past him?

Press releases from VWRW tell that she knows all about the issues a person feel about ex-patriating.  No word if she has experienced it before.  I have observed it, as well as KenC, jb, and others as well.  Not just with our wives, but with all of the other AM/RW couples we have met, and that are part of our lives as well.  Each person handles it differently, but no one I have met does so effortlessly.  To do so means that the person has developed zero ties in their life to feel the pain of severing them -- no family, no friends, no pursuits that have any meaningful spot in one's soul.  I hope she is misguided in her beliefs, otherwise, she would not be a person I would ever wish to meet.

P/G's press releases read like Russian history -- it changes a bit every day.  Hillary's presidential campaign can use a spin doctor of his caliber.  After reading pages upon pages of his crying and justifications, in my opinion it reads like this -- he jumped the gun, settled for the first girl who smiled at him, and enjoyed a 89 day date.  If he had spent half as much time getting to know her before doing a K-1 that he spent justifying and defending his actions, a great number of Cybertrees would of been saved from having to archive it all.

There.  Now that I've p!ssed off a number of people, you can all go back to your bickering.  At least I feel better...