The Previous Research Project - Cyberbrides in America (Planet-Love)

[Photo Guy]

Christmas was fine!

Now back to the sludge...
jb wrote:
I visited a girl who was '...not worldly enough to successfully make the move to a new and better life.'

That is total bullsh*t.  jb, how do YOU judge her 'worldliness' from your couch in Texas?
Also, you say I travelled to meet a woman I was in love with. That's also not true. Re-read my trip reports. I am not going to allow you to dispense untrue crap here in a public forum. I did not go 'head over heels'. I did not go there to fall in love with a shop girl. I went there to meet an interesting woman. And as it turned out, she was and is a woman worthy of my love and attention. ...And you're an armchair quarterback.
 

[jb]

P/G, here we go again with your defense of "the love that never was". 

All you've posted above is out of some kind of misguided sorrow and self-pity.  I stand by my "Shop Girl" comments.  And I was also right in my assessment that you were wasting your time and money.  Larisa may have been a fine girl in all respects, but you didn't turn her on.  Evidenced by the fact that you spent 5 or 6 days in adjacent hotel room, saw her everyday, and she never kissed you.  You are a bus driver, perhaps she wanted someone more upscale.  For whatever reason she made the vacation trip to Phoenix, at your expense, and elected not to follow through with a marriage... She didn't have that loving feeling about you.  Men propose, women dispose.  When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee?  The facts as reported by you, indicated severe, and incurable homesickness, this is a symptom of a lack of worldliness and immaturity.  You constantly contradict facts put in evidence by yourself.

Maybe I was wrong about you, perhaps you didn't learn a thing through this whole ordeal.

[KenC]

Photo,
Now remember, I complimented you on your posts up thread, OK?

Guys, your gal may get severely homesick. She may hate her new country.
Her pappa could flip out. Any number of things... 

Sorry, but this is typical for most RW.  Mostly they do dislike America and are terribly homesick.  There will always be problems back home and they will always feel like they abandoned their families in their time of need.  These are not unique to Larisa, it just is the way it is.  The difference between Larisa and any Russian wife of an American man in a successful marriage, is that their wife chose to over come these obstacles and Larisa did not.  Plane and simple fact of the matter is that life with you, Photoguy, was not somehow attractive enough to Larisa to stay.  BTW, you, do sound like a victim in your post too.

As for if a more "worldly" woman will find success in an American marriage more often than one from a more "sheltered" background?  I would have to say yes.  A more sophisticated woman that has a more well rounded background will not be as over whelmed as a more simple woman.  Also factored into this is the fact that "village girls" or girls from sh!tholes like the city Larisa was from have a tendency to be more desperate to "get out of Dodge"  and will have a tendency to accept what is offered even if they know in their heart of hearts that it is really not the right thing to do.

You may not like how jb or I phrase our words to describe your situation but you cannot argue, that we told you so from the beginning.  Larisa was never "in to" you, she and you jumped the gun too fast and the language barrier was too huge an obstacle to over come.  Sorry, but I wish it weren't true.
KenC

[jb]

Yep,, a train wreck from the outset.

[Turboguy]

Bull!!!!!!!!!!

As usual on this I will side with PG.   I am not saying he did things right, just as he is not saying he did not make mistakes.

What I am differing with is the "Shop Girl" thing.  Personally I don't think someones job has much to do with their ability, drive or intelligence.   Larisa's job would have transfered here very easy and quickly compared to others, particularly others with advanced educations.  You both seem to look down on people and think classes of people are beneath you. 

I agree, PG should have made more trips, he should have met the family, yes, maybe he should have moved a little slower.  He agrees with that too I am sure and I think he wanted it enough that if he could roll back time he would change it. 

There were factors beyond PG's control that had a major effect.  Her health for one.  Her dad for another.  The job PG has.  (I am not talking about income, just that he had to be gone for extended periods which left her alone)  Yes, I am sure the language thing did not help.  I don't question that nor do I think PG does. 

History has a lot of Americans who were "shop girl" educated that went on to be outstanding people, such as Henry Ford with an 8th grade education.   

Intelligence, common sense, drive, creativity all have little to do with education or occupation.   For that matter someone can have class and sophistication with those.

[Photo Guy]

1- a lot of RW start off slow and relatively reserved
2- her decision to return to Ukraine had much more to do with her
     father's health than anything else.
3- her alleged 'shop girl' status had nothing to do with anything
4- jb and KenC are off base, disrespectful, and just plain wrong.
5- Larisa was never 'desperate' to get out of Dodge. Is that
    a plus or a minus?
6- Calling someone's home town a 'sh*thole' is really crass.

Families are very close in the FSU. People often live with their parents.
Many RW feel obligated to help their parents survive. A pensioner has
very little money. And here you are trashing a woman for going home to
aid her sick father. I suppose you would just let the guy die?
Do you think it was an easy decision for her, to return to Ukraine?
It was a painful decision.
Your remarks are disparaging and disrespectful. Very low.
Newbies, take a good look at jb's and KenC's remarks. Look at the tone.
...I wouldn't trade my three months with Larisa for anything.

Thanks Turbo for your maturity, your sense of reason.

[Turboguy]

It seems pretty logical to me that had she been desperate to get out of Dodge, she would not have returned to Dodge. 

[KenC]

Bull!!!!!!!!!!

As usual on this I will side with PG.   I am not saying he did things right, just as he is not saying he did not make mistakes.

And let me be the first to remind you that you Mr. Turboguy were the head cheerleader telling the poor guy that he is doing everything right!

What I am differing with is the "Shop Girl" thing.  Personally I don't think someones job has much to do with their ability, drive or intelligence.   Larisa's job would have transfered here very easy and quickly compared to others, particularly others with advanced educations.  You both seem to look down on people and think classes of people are beneath you.

I assume  that I am in your "both" statement.  If that is the case, then maybe you should re-read my post because I say nothing about Larisa's occupation.

I agree, PG should have made more trips, he should have met the family, yes, maybe he should have moved a little slower.  He agrees with that too I am sure and I think he wanted it enough that if he could roll back time he would change it. 

Then why in the hell didn't you tell him so when it could have mattered?  What you did is say "Go Photo GO, you're doing everything right!  And of course give everyone grief that didn't agree.

There were factors beyond PG's control that had a major effect.  Her health for one.  Her dad for another.  The job PG has.  (I am not talking about income, just that he had to be gone for extended periods which left her alone)  Yes, I am sure the language thing did not help.  I don't question that nor do I think PG does. 

Everyone has a story about why it is difficult for them and again where the hell was this solid advice when it could have been useful?  Mr. Cheerleader?

History has a lot of Americans who were "shop girl" educated that went on to be outstanding people, such as Henry Ford with an 8th grade education. 

 
Henry Ford was born in Dearborn, MI and his English was pretty good and he didn't marry to get into the country and and and and ...

Intelligence, common sense, drive, creativity all have little to do with education or occupation.   For that matter someone can have class and sophistication with those.

I focused on "wordily" with a little parallel to "sophistication" without mention of occupation or education.  jb's post was much like mine when I said:
"As for if a more "worldly" woman will find success in an American marriage more often than one from a more "sheltered" background?  I would have to say yes.  A more sophisticated woman that has a more well rounded background will not be as over whelmed as a more simple woman."
That doesn't demean Larisa in any way.

You know, Turbo, the truth isn't always nice and pretty.  You want to be encouraging here and that is a good thing, but your cheerleading of Photo's actions at the time (many of which you retract here and now) is the worst kind of "favor" you can do for someone.  It is telling boldface friggin lies to a guy, just to be nice.
KenC

[KenC]

It seems pretty logical to me that had she been desperate to get out of Dodge, she would not have returned to Dodge. 

I guess not desperate enough to be with PG.
KenC

[jb]

I fully agree, the Sunshine Boys did P/G no favors when they defended his every move.

[Photo Guy]

KenC,
Turbo knows I'm just as independent as he is. I would never choose a course of action
solely because Turbo (or anyone) said, 'Yes, go do that!!'
Unlike you, Turbo doesn't pretend to know all about my relationship
with Larisa. He doesn't tell me I'm delusional like you have.
note: All those weeks of fun and affection in the US, and KenC still
thinks I was imagining a relationship with Larisa. Sheesh.

The facts are: Larisa's return to Ukraine had nothing to do with:
1- her career choices
2- her lack of English skills
3- my lack of lots of previous time with her
4- her worldliness or 'sheltered life'.
5- her reserved caution during our initial 8 days together.

I have no regrets about choosing Larisa. She's fantastic.
She had to do what she had to do.  Life goes on.
I'll remain an adventurous optimist.

[KenC]

1- a lot of RW start off slow and relatively reserved

Especially when they don't know the guy, can't talk to him and never even kissed him.

2- her decision to return to Ukraine had much more to do with her father's health than anything else.

Her choice clearly wasn't you.

3- her alleged 'shop girl' status had nothing to do with anything

Not applicable to anything I said.

4- jb and KenC are off base, disrespectful, and just plain wrong.

Go ahead and listen to the sugar coated words from Turbo and you will fall on your ass again.  Plain talking with no BS scares you to death.

5- Larisa was never 'desperate' to get out of Dodge. Is that
    a plus or a minus?

At least not desperate enough to stay with you.

6- Calling someone's home town a 'sh*thole' is really crass.

Give me some of dem sweet sugar coated words again please, for get about the truth.

Families are very close in the FSU. People often live with their parents.
Many RW feel obligated to help their parents survive. A pensioner has
very little money.

Did you forget that between jb and I we have been married to a RW for a combined 13+ years?  (And you are going to lecture us?)Mr. One Week Wonder & Crash?

And here you are trashing a woman for going home to
aid her sick father. I suppose you would just let the guy die?
Do you think it was an easy decision for her, to return to Ukraine?
It was a painful decision.
Your remarks are disparaging and disrespectful. Very low.

What a friggin drama queen you are!  No one "trashed" her and no one disparaged her for going home to her sick Father.  Hmm wait a sec!  I thought it was her illness that made her go home?  Now you say it is her father's.  Truth is she didn't want to be with YOU.  Face it once and for all.  Excuses, excuses, excuses.  That's all they were PG.  You don't think Lena has aging Babushkas that she cries about because she knows they will die without her being there?  Of course she does!  But she chooses to be with me, the man she loves.  It is a heartbreak, but she made her choice and Larisa made hers. (Etna, jb's wife, is  in Russia right now burying her Mother for God's sake!)

Newbies, take a good look at jb's and KenC's remarks. Look at the tone.
...I wouldn't trade my three months with Larisa for anything.

Thanks Turbo for your maturity, your sense of reason.

Yeah newbies listen to Turbo (who is yet to marry a RW in 10 years of trying) or Photoguy here and you might get a 3 month test drive with a RW with all the sunshine they blow up your ass!  Or you can listen to the truth without the sugar and you just  might actually end up with a successful marriage to a RW.
Your choice.
KenC

[Photo Guy]

A personal put-down:

KenC wrote:
'I guess not desperate enough to be with PG.'

What did I do to deserve that? Disagree with you?

Yes, she returned to Ukraine to care for her sick father.
She chose to do that, rather than marry me and stay here
in the US. In Ukraine, she became sick and eventually needed
surgery in October.  I don't care what you say, I realize my
time with her was well-spent. If she had stayed here with me,
instead of taking care of her father, she would have been
a person of weaker character.

[Admin]

Sheez Guys!

The RWD dispute that will live into infinity - apparently.

What will it take to get you guys to drop it - COMPLETELY?

- Dan

[KenC]

Dan,
Have Turbo & PG stop spreading the manure?
KenC

[Photo Guy]

Have jb and KenC stop twisting and simplifying the truth.  :noidea:

[Admin]

"The truth" versus "the manure."

How to arbitrate?

Here is what I think - and it is only my perspective and only FWIW.

[BTW - Ada ought to be having a hay-day with this one]

jb and Ken cannot possibly know the reality of what occurred between Larisa and Doug. We saw glimpses during their initial meetings that produced enormous controversy - and we later learned of the demise of the relationship and Doug has been good enough to share *some* of what transpired, at (what I expect) is significant emotional pain.

jb, Ken and others were alarmed at what they read initially because it raised MAJOR red flags - some of which were ignored even after them being raised. It frustrated them to be ignored when they saw the flags so clearly.

HOWEVER -- I honestly believe there is NOTHING that will come from this ongoing vitriole at this point. Doug is Doug - and he *is* an optimist - and he *will* chart his own course - and, frankly, I like him.

[Sidenote: I happen to know that Ken and jb *also* like Doug. It is like my high school football coach used to scream at me while he was shaking the hell out of my face mask; "You only have to worry when I *STOP* yelling at you! THAT means I no longer give a shit!"]

I think all you guys need to just give it up. Don't stop caring - BUT - none of you is going to convince the other - and it is going to frustrate you AGAIN (for the millionth time) and pollute the board - and NOTHING positive will come of it.

- Dan

[KenC]

OK, Dan,
You got most of it right and I have long stopped trying to convince Turbo & Doug of anything.  But that is not the point. (To me any way)  I see them as a real threat to newbies here with their "sugar plum fairy" thinking that simply does not work as evidenced by both of their track records.  Every time I point out the errors of their advice, we go back into the same ol crap.  How do I point out the bad advice, as I admittedly see it, with going through the same outrageous debate again?
KenC

[Admin]

OK, Dan,
You got most of it right and I have long stopped trying to convince Turbo & Doug of anything.  But that is not the point. (To me any way)  I see them as a real threat to newbies here with their "sugar plum fairy" thinking that simply does not work as evidenced by both of their track records.  Every time I point out the errors of their advice, we go back into the same ol crap.  How do I point out the bad advice, as I admittedly see it, with going through the same outrageous debate again?
KenC

Hmmm....

What about asking Doug if he agrees with the major points a Newbie should avoid.

Do you recall Stan (something or other) who lives in Hawaii and used to post at PL? He was a classical OWW, and was quite open about the fact that, while he felt successful, he would not recommend his approach to others - and he went on to explain why.

I wonder if there are some common points of agreement you (and jb) and Doug might agree?

One which comes to mind was the lack of meeting her family. Maybe there are others?

Just a thought.

- Dan

[Turboguy]

I can assure you I would have no hesitation in saying that most people would be better off not trying to stretch the age thing as much as VWRW and I are doing.  I don't see it as a problem for us at all, but I think we are the exception and not the rule.  If I am right or wrong about that we will find out in time. 

[KenC]

I can assure you I would have no hesitation in saying that most people would be better off not trying to stretch the age thing as much as VWRW and I are doing.  I don't see it as a problem for us at all, but I think we are the exception and not the rule.  If I am right or wrong about that we will find out in time. 

Turbo,
The "proof" that you and VWRW are an exception to the rule will be sometime in the future though.  I know that you will stand up and take your lumps like a man should this not work out and I do respect you for that quality.  I do have a question or two for you though:
Do you feel any remorse for encouraging PG to "just go for it" and not cautioning him to take more time? Visit Larisa again?  Meet the parents? (All the things that even PG now admits were mistakes?)
KenC

[KenC]

Hmmm....

What about asking Doug if he agrees with the major points a Newbie should avoid.

Do you recall Stan (something or other) who lives in Hawaii and used to post at PL? He was a classical OWW, and was quite open about the fact that, while he felt successful, he would not recommend his approach to others - and he went on to explain why.

I wonder if there are some common points of agreement you (and jb) and Doug might agree?

One which comes to mind was the lack of meeting her family. Maybe there are others?

Just a thought.

- Dan

Dan,
Doug's expectations are just too low for any serious consideration here.  As an example:
"I have no regrets about choosing Larisa. She's fantastic."
"All those weeks of fun and affection in the US, and KenC still
thinks I was imagining a relationship with Larisa. Sheesh."
"...I wouldn't trade my three months with Larisa for anything."

He still is insistant that his 90 days together here was enough to justify his actions.  He is either so desperate for love an affection that he would go through the gamut of things necessary to do a K-1 that a 90 day payoff is adequate or he has so low self esteem that he doesn't think he deserves more. Either way, his idea of "success" is not the same as the members here and therefore his opinions (such as they are) are really meaningless.  Hell, he won't even admit that his methods failed and his girl went home on day 89.

You suggest that we find some common ground.  A good idea, but  how do you suggest we deal with something as illogical as when he said:

The facts are: Larisa's return to Ukraine had nothing to do with:
2- her lack of English skills
3- my lack of lots of previous time with her

When I look at this as that clearly if he could communicate with Larisa and spent more time with her, Doug would have been fully aware of Larisa's (and her father's) health problems.

I think the goal of the men that come here are to find a good and loving mate, hopefully for a lifetime, not an 89 day "rent a date."  How can one reason with that?  How harmful can his bad advice be to newbies trying to find their way?  Remember PG's famous "wisdoms that I have learned" post?  I do and I will do everything in my power to make sure some naive newbie doesn't think of Photoguy as any role model for this process.
KenC
BTW, I do remember Stan and I liked him a lot.  OWW's will always happen, but like Turbo, Stan would stand up like a man and say that he took a chance and lost.  (PG doesn't even know he did lose.)

And another BTW.  I came to the conclusion that Larisa's hometown was a sh!thole from your description of it.
KenC

[Kuna]

May I be the newbie that takes a neutral but definitive position here?

I'm sure Rivardco will agree, but I don't profess to speak for him... (He's a marketer... only God knows what twist he would put on this!) :hairraising:   

If the intention is to ensure us newbies don't take TG and PG's words as gospel,  it's worked.

The voracity of the arguments I see in here is FAR more passionate than I'd expect, and more than I think is necessary at times.

I'm not criticising anyone, but please let me make the following comments without anyone taking offence:

1. I can see jb and KenC trying to speak the truth and appealing to common sense. I can also see the frustration growing with every post because the "other guys" aren't accepting the good advice. The style of communication though isn't ever likely to make these two guys respond like you want them to respond. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink";

2. I believe, that because of the way the arguments are presented both TG and PG are defending what is, at times, difficult or impossible to defend. I'm not criticising either of these guys because I don't know enough of their personal situations, but from what I do know the initial advice offered sounded realistic and balanced.  They are adults and will make their own choices though... and they'll live with the consequences.

I am a passionate Alfa Romeo owner and I actually imagine that the weird little electrical faults and intermittent fluid leaks are a part of my Bella's "personality".

I weighed up the options and chose the car I thought best at the time, and I'll damn well defend it until it's a pile of nuts and bolts. There are things I LOVE about this car.  It's like nothing else I've ever driven (and I've had some very nice cars)

You know what???  My next car will be an Alfa even though it's the most expensive car to maintain that I've ever owned.

(Actually, my next car will be an Alfa IF I don't marry in the foreseeable future because I know most women won't tolerate a husbands car that costs more to maintain than she does)   

I'm not saying PG and TG are right or wrong.  They've taken paths I wouldn't take but I'm not in their position.

KenC and jb, be assured, anyone reading this will understand what you're saying. That's the important thing.  TG and PG will never acknowledge that you're right, or probably right, because they might be Alfa lovers too!

Hopefully they'll listen to your advice because I think it's good advice, but if they don't, they make their decisions with all of the good advice at hand.

What I think is "unfortunate" is when a relationship is in it's genesis and two people (TG and VWRW) are in here sharing their experiences and there is a public stoning taking place.  I see TG defending vwrw at times and I don't blame him.  His defense is hard to justify but I think the attacks are hard to justify too.

Do you wish them well?  I'm sure you do! 

Are you as confident as they are that they're making the right decision?  I know you're not.

Now, why don't we all have a group hug and get back to the business at hand...  Helping ME have a successful trip to Ukraine in January/February and making ME the happiest man alive! 

OK, I make light of it...  but I think everyone has value to contribute here, including vwrw, but not everyone will accept the advice that is offered!

I highly value the input and advice of the "experienced and successful guys", and I also appreciate the optimism of people like TG and PG.

I want to reiterate something I said a while ago...

THIS COMMUNITY is a powerful vehicle to offer advice, share experiences, gain experience, develop knowledge and pursue a relationship choice that MANY on the outside disapprove of.

We're all the same, but we're all different.  We're all a part of the same community though!

I, for one am very thankful I found it!

Kuna

[jb]

Kuna,

It's one thing to defend the weak, quite another to encourage them to jump off a cliff.  This is the issue I have with the "Sunshine Boys".

To say that KenC's, (or mine), kind of tough love doesn't work, is a reach.  There are a few very successful marriages represented here on this board today which are going great because someone like Ken knocked those romantic stars out of their eyes and made them see reality.   I won't name names, they can come forward if they wish, but rest assures, P/G is not the first "Poster Child" for failure who tasted the clue bat.  Some people are able to learn from the experience of other, some are not.

And while I'm on the subject, I have nothing against "Shop Girls"; for those who can't read between the lines, "Shop Girl" is a synonym for "women who are unsuitable as transatlantic/transoceanic wife material".  By the very nature of the human beast, there are some people who are so provincial, so parochially oriented, they will not thrive outside the neighborhood where they were raised.  I know of at least one man who posts here the encountered such a woman, it took him a couple of wasted trips to Tver to figure out that as long as he was in her town, she was a great g/f, but she'd never make an effort to learn English or make any of those major changes in her life.  Why a woman like that will join an agency is anybody's guess.  A lot of time and money can be pounded down a rat hole if a man cannot read the writing on the wall.

Every point and counter point posted by KenC and me in this debate was the result of some idiotic, romantic, nonsensical, whimsical, effort to protray a shop girl as worldly and sophisticated.  I never bought it, and I don't think Ken did either.

[Turboguy]

Turbo,
The "proof" that you and VWRW are an exception to the rule will be sometime in the future though.  I know that you will stand up and take your lumps like a man should this not work out and I do respect you for that quality.  I do have a question or two for you though:
Do you feel any remorse for encouraging PG to "just go for it" and not cautioning him to take more time? Visit Larisa again?  Meet the parents? (All the things that even PG now admits were mistakes?)
KenC

Ken, I have never considered myself to be perfect.  I make mistakes and if I do, I never try to blame anyone else.  I am very content to say I was wrong and to as you say, stand up like a man and accept responsibility.  

If you ever knew the whole story of me starting my business which is actually a pretty interesting tale you would also know that if I believe in something totally I am probably (prolly if you prefer) the most focused and determined person you will ever find.  I will not let anything stop me in my persuit of my goals.  When it comes to VWRW I am well aware that you look at is as the longest of long shots.  

KenC, you are sitting in the stadium.  You are looking at the records, the stats and the probablity.  You are looking at all the odds that say it is impossible.   I am down on the playing field playing the quarterback position.  Beaver Falls is famous for one thing and one thing only.  Everyone I meet says one name.  Joe Namouth.  If Broadway Joe had not opened his big mouth a long time ago he probably would not have had half the fame he does, but I will say the same thing.  I absolutely guarantee you things will work with VWRW and I.  I am absolutely positive that I will not have to come back in the future and say "boy was I wrong about that one, I was in idiot"   This is a sure thing.  If it is a mistake I have no problem with admitting it and standing up like a man, but it is just not going to happen.  I guarantee it.

Ok, now lets move on to PG for a minute.  You said "Do you feel any remorse for encouraging PG to "just go for it" and not cautioning him to take more time? Visit Larisa again?  Meet the parents?"  

Do I feel any remorse?, No!  Do I think he made a mistake in not doing that? yes!   Did I think at the time he should have made more visits? Yes

I will not argue against the facts that Doug was new at this and inexperienced in persuing FSU women, that he took some shortcuts, partially out of neccessity, partially out of inexperence.  

Anything I learned about crowd psychology was a long time ago so I have to dig back through the cobwebs for this but there are things in crowd psychology that go against what you would expect.  For example if a normally decent person comes across a situation where a crowd is gathered around someone beating them, kicking them, clubing them, basically killing someone logic tells us that person should want to come to the persons rescue.  In the realities of crowd psychology that person will join in and start kicking and beating even though he does not know the person or have a reason.

When I found Doug he was virtually the person in the middle of the crowd.   People were telling him things like she was lower than trailer trash, a worthless shop girl, so ugly they would vomit at the thought of making love to her, that he was stupid, that as a low classed bus driver he did not have the ability or financial means to succeed.  

Doug was doing a good job of standing up to the idiots who where gathered around him beating him mercilessly with the clue bat.  I saw someone with a romantic nature and the best of intentions and decided to go against the rules of crowd psychology.  I tried to stand by his side and give him some support.  It didn't matter if he was right or wrong to me.   If people had tried to talk to him, understand what he was doing and suggest better alternatives it would have done much more good.  

I defended Doug and encouraged him not so much because I thought he was right, but because I thought Anono and jb and some of the others were wrong.  Not with thier ideas, in the cold, heartless way they were presenting them.