The Previous Research Project - Cyberbrides in America (Planet-Love)

[Bruno]

I may be old and pretty senile quite often but I don't remember anyone attacking or degrading Larissa except Annono.

Agree with you, you are prettu senile 

Annomo was the one who have start about  give numeral value to these girls... but before this, some have say that these girls was a hookersince beauty convention don't exist in Ukraine, so she was making lie and meet other men... but i have show that so convention exist and specialy at the time she have say... thank to my friend Google 

Now, about the situation itself... yes, in some way, Photoguy was with "some" urealistic expectation... not that he have choice the wrong way but it have choice the way with the more obstacle... he have loose the fight but this don't mean that he is fully wrong... i don't think that these misluck it is fully based on the relationship, i think that L was not fully ready for a comminant with a foreign man... is it the mistake of Photoguy?... Be sure that a lot of FSU women have not yet think about the effect of a foreign relation... for a lot of them, it is a option like other... once on test, some can change of meaning...

Now, why speak about these very old story on the Ada topic... the misluck story of Photoguy can be a instrutive thing for Ada... it have happen, it is a true story... don't care where is the mistake but it show clearly that all the process is not so much easy that some newbies or outsider can think...

In place of bashing someone, take the learned lesson... photo himself have already learn some mistake making previously... pushing him again in the corner will only lead him to the "attack mode" where nobody will learn something...

Her job, her educational level, etc... have nothing to make with the relationship... you have a$$hole at each 'caste' of our society... simply not try to be one a$$hole can be a positive thing... not that people like JB or KenC are fully wrong, they both make very valuable post... who are only accepteb by old members who have learn to know them... a little water in the wine can help...

Newbies, don't be afraid of so members, they are there for help you... the only method know from them is the "shock therapy" but better a little shock now that a heartquake in a few year... guy like Turbo and Photo are not wrong too, maybe sometime a little too much dreamer... but is it not dreamer who allow our world to evolve...

I am new to this forum, I have been in as a guest but just decided to join the other day.  I have to say that I am really surprised at all the bickering that is going on here, it is like a bunch of children in a playground.  I am not sure that this is the right forum to be on, but I will give it a little more to decide. 

About be the right forum, i don't know... but really, don't hope the right reply for YOU... You wil hear members who try to show that his way is the best... and it will be right for him... but for YOU, it is YOUR work to collect the maximum data and choice the way who is rightfor YOU... Dating is not a exact science, no universal recept exist... simply choose the way that you feel the better for you... maybe you will be from the "ra-ra club" or the "pickle barrel club" but who really care... your goal is success using your own way... method from other can lead to a lot of problem for you... no one here have the universal knowledge of the dating/marriage process, specialy when it is related to you... these forum is information only, it is not rules...

In any case, good luck... you will need it ( in anycase, local relationship or foreign one are not very different... luck is a part of the process ).

The men who are posting all go way back and have their own idea's on what is good and what is not so good.

Not everybody is like this... not all isblack and white... some people are able to see the full patern of the grey shade... in any case, don't care of the idea of other... use your mind, build your own idea... no one is bad or good... simplyu take what you need... some can be aggressive or insulting... but read between line and find the true meaning ( cleaning process )... some can seam make post like fary tail... filter it and find the romantic mind... be realistic is the best way to success... the road used is YOUR problem... only the result count...

[Bruno]

I will happily withdraw from the RWD if the majority of the membership think my opinions are wrong to be heard by the newbie. 

JB, you opinion are not specialy wrong, far of this... but you show it a a wrong way... a sweet bonbon packaged in shit don't lead to result... showing your opinion in a strong way but moderated one will lead to more positive result...

After two year, i have learn to know you... you have in the past hurt me but now, i know that you advice are valuable... but not everybody wil wait two year for know you... and some will make the wrong choice because they revolt against you...

I know, with time, you become aggressif of responding to the universal question that you have already reply a 1 million time.... newbies are lazy, they don't use the "search" function... but hunt them lead to more dead story... remember yourself during the first time in FSU... not easy ( i am not sur about this since it is related to character )... JB, guide the newbies here, don't push them away ( go luck, i don't wish to have your place of RWD mentor )

[joty]

jb dont go anywhere on my account.  It is just me observing this one section of the forum.  I guess you all love to hate each other on this topic.  turboguy i will read more sections before i decide if i will hang around and tell you all about myself, and where i am at in my venture.

[Bruno]

There are some supremely valuable opinions here at RWD. Vaughn, BC, KenC, Voyager, ConnorVT, and yes, our most despised jb are some folks that when they post I read, think about, re read and do my best to absorb as they have actually done this successfully.

Don't you think that people who have know misluck are more able to explain why misluck happen ?

In any case, i hope to be a opinion... not a supremely, not a valuable one, etc... but one opinion between the numerous one... simply remember that one opinion is not he rule, the magic recept...

[Michelangelo]

I guess they are when I'm listed as "the dispised jb" in a post from someone I liked and respected. 

JB, I think you misread that sentence. Catzenmouse wrote that tongue in cheek.

[Photo Guy]

Joty, welcome to RWD! Rather than reading this topic, I recommend sampling many of the other topics here. That will give you a better taste of what RWD is all about. The 'Trip Reports' section is one of my favorites. Check it out.

BTW, I agree with many of Bruno's posts - very 'balanced'.

[Bruno]

jb dont go anywhere on my account.  It is just me observing this one section of the forum.  I guess you all love to hate each other on this topic.  turboguy i will read more sections before i decide if i will hang around and tell you all about myself, and where i am at in my venture.

Funny, these topic is not about hate and love... it is related to Ada making some interviews and about the generaly biesed point of view from the extern world...

Dure that if Ada is ready the last few post, she will show a negative image of men dating foreign bride... Seem that we are almost all crazy there...

Why read other section... all of them are similar... two extreme point of view with a lot of shade between... Hang around will not be related to one person but to the communauty... the white side can be right for something, the black for something other... and you have the neutral one ( very few ) too.... But can you explain me why you relay to other... are you not able to forge your own personal opinion... it  is whar really count for you... think you and don't follow any other members like a blind sheep.

[joty]

thanks photoguy i will check out the trip reports as you suggested.  bruno i could not follow what you were saying sorry.

[KenC]

It is a perplexing problem.

Basically 4 guys, all smart - all well-intended - 2 on each 'side' - and no apparent ability to find any middle ground.

All 4 want to be responsible for providing useful and accurate information to others. All 4 have direct, first-hand experience to share and to rely upon to support their opinions/assertions.

Every one of the 4 would be (and is) welcome in my home and I would sincerely enjoy spending time with each.

In spite of the points of commonality (there are, at least, a few), there is also such deep entrenchment on each side of this debate that it does, clearly, seem destined to be a topic which will live indefinitely amongst the 'rancor files' of RWD.

I confess - I do not know what to do with this one.

Anyone (ANYONE) have any ideas?

- Dan

Dan,
One thing that might help is if we settled on exactly what the core issues are in this on going feud.  I think I have been fairly succinct in what concerns me when I posted up thread:
I feel a sense of responsibility to this forum to point out what I think is misleading advice

What TG or PG decide to do or not do is their business and I could care less, but when they start exclaiming to the members of this forum that their selected way is right because........  I start to holler and holler loud.  I admit to also getting involved when there is some BS justification for their actions too.  I sight both TG & PG's past failures only to put the question of doubt into the other members minds as they read it.  Their way simply has not worked for them yet.

This is a fairly open forum and everyone is entitled to their opinions, but when those opinions are turned into "advice" then they must be scrutinized a little more closely.  jb and myself may not be the most eloquent individuals at dispensing advice, but at least we do have a track record to back up the validity of what we say.  We also are not shy to point out misinformation and bad advice as we see it.  Neither of us take the "Turbo approach" which is to cheerlead a man as he rushes to his personal cliff.

I began this post by mentioning that we need to identify the core issues here.  The problem with that is that PG gets too emotional for any real debate of the issues.  He remembers all the hurt feelings and goes off on emotional sidetracks, leaving the issues and rationality behind.  Way way up thread I posted a compliment to PG and his postings on this thread.  Later, I felt duty bound to point out somethings that he posted that were misleading or incorrect.  Whamo, the war was on.  Of course TG (the ultimate cheerleader that he is) feels obligated to save his friends from us bullies.

I like this board and I an't going no where.

My suggestion is this:
Let's open a thread in no holds barred to discuss the core issues that we disagree upon.  TG & PG can select an equal number of core issues as jb and I do.  We debate them one at a time.  Someone, or a few someones decide which side gave the best support to their point of view.  Debate over.  That does not necessarily mean that anyone has to change their opinion, but we will finally have *something* to point to as a reference of what is the desired approach to the selected issues.

You asked for some ideas, there is mine.  I am open to your suggested changes too.
KenC

[KenC]

Truth?
It isn't true, or wise for someone who does not know me, to claim I do not have the time or money to make the necessary trips to the FSU. Totally untrue and ..how do these untrue allegations help newbies?
If you want to help newbies, simply tell them about the costs involved. It's not rocket science.

Is it okay to allow someone(Anono,KenC) to make fun of your girlfriend's appearance? 
No, I dont think so.

How can you begin a post of lies with the word "truth?"
You posted many times about your inability to afford the expense and time to make more trips.  And you and I have discussed the issue of me saying anything negative about Larisa's appearance.  Anno and others were trashing Larisa's looks on the open forum.  I didn't post a thing about her looks.  You sent me emails asking for my opinion.  I refused or gave an affirmative answer.  In a PM to me from you on 8/23/05 you wrote:

Ken,
No big deal. Water under the bridge. Under a forum topic you mentioned that I had 'cornered you' in the form of a PM,
in regard to Larisa's appearance. That was back when I sent you a couple of photos of Larisa and you told me she had
a nice bod. And then later, you told RWD that I had, in effect, twisted your arm to tell me she wasn't bad looking.
Hey..whatever. We all like different types. Maybe I mis-read what you posted back then. No problemo.

KenC

[Turboguy]

Let's look at what is on the wire now.  T/G is convinced that his new relationship will fair much better than the one that ended with her flying home only a few short months ago.  After all, he knows her better after a few weeks of intensive study and research, than KenC knows his wife of 8 years.  I'm sure he has done a better job of vetting this time.  After all, the last K-1 was with a woman T/G himself admits has mental health issues.  Wonder how that got past him?

Press releases from VWRW tell that she knows all about the issues a person feel about ex-patriating.  No word if she has experienced it before.  I have observed it, as well as KenC, jb, and others as well.  Not just with our wives, but with all of the other AM/RW couples we have met, and that are part of our lives as well.  Each person handles it differently, but no one I have met does so effortlessly.  To do so means that the person has developed zero ties in their life to feel the pain of severing them -- no family, no friends, no pursuits that have any meaningful spot in one's soul.  I hope she is misguided in her beliefs, otherwise, she would not be a person I would ever wish to meet.


There.  Now that I've p!ssed off a number of people, you can all go back to your bickering.  At least I feel better...  

Conner, first off you may have pissed off a lot of guys but you did not piss off me.   I think there was a lot of truth and a lot of wisdom in your post and that is typical of your posts.

First off (for the second time).  I think jb took Ken (C&Ms) post seriously and like you I don't see any way it was.  Ken likes to joke and that was totally tongue in cheek.  Ken totally respects jb and even though I don't agree with jb and sometimes thinks he is way too blunt.  I respect him also.

Now moving on to your comments about VWRW and myself!  I don't know where you or anyone got the idea that I said I know VWRW better than KenC does Lena after 8 years of marriage.  That keeps getting quoted and I never said that and I don't believe it.  I did say VWRW knows me better than my ex wife did after 18 years of marriage and 22 years of knowing each other.  That I said!  That I believe!  I also said jb know me better than my ex wife and actually I think they both share the same opinion of me at the moment.  (if jb reads this he will know what I am talking about)

As far as my former fiancee's "mental illness"   You asked how it got past me.  It didn't.  Our first meeting went fine.  Our second one two months later was a disaster and had more red flags flying than at a 20 car pileup at a race track.  She was getting upset with me right and left over the stupidest things you could ever imagine.   Wanting something and being hooked on someone can make you "hope" that things will work out.  I had enough self confidence in myself to also think that being a good guy who would try to make her happy would win out in time.  Things just don't work that way in real life.  I knew it had moved into high risk mode but I cared and wanted to see it through.

I agree with you about your comments about the issues a person feel about ex-patriating.  My former fiancee did it easily for exactly the reasons you said.  She was incapable of having feelings for anyone.  She never missed anyone or had a minutes problems with leaving anyone behind.  

VWRW is not that way at all.  Probably the hardest thing she will have to deal with is being away from her mother as they are very close.  As far as any experience she has in ex-patriating that is her business to share what she wants or doesn't.  

We have discussed this in great length.  She is totally committed to this and I am well aware that I need to help her maintain as close a contact with her family in general and her mother in particular as possible.  I am prepared to do that and she is very determined to succeed in this venture.  Her goal is to be an American from Russia and not a Russian who lives in America.  She will be fine and I will be by her side and help her in any way I can.  Neither of us expects it to be effortless.   We both will be just fine.  

[TexasBoar]

And this is where we know, without the slightest doubt, that the quarrel has gone to far.

On my own forum, the rules are explicit:

4. Items discussed in private messages are private, and should not be discussed on the board in any specifics. A general topic which came up in a private message could be started as a thread, but anyone's opinion other than your own should not be mentioned without the express permission of that person. Using items in private messages as an attack against another is expressly forbidden.

Here, I've noticed that not only does this prohibition NOT appear in the TOS, it doesn't seem to even blip on a number of members' radar, either . . . and I find that reprehensible.

Note, please, that I am not taking any sides in the current brouhaha, it frankly being meaningless to me and much of its roots going back to well before my entry into this forum. But when this kind of honorless sandbagging not only goes on regularly, but crops up in virtually every debate, and draws no disapprobal from mods nor members . . . sheeeeesh.  And you people want newbies to TRUST you?  

~Boar

[Turboguy]

Dan,
One thing that might help is if we settled on exactly what the core issues are in this on going feud.  I think I have been fairly succinct in what concerns me when I posted up thread:
I feel a sense of responsibility to this forum to point out what I think is misleading advice

What TG or PG decide to do or not do is their business and I could care less, but when they start exclaiming to the members of this forum that their selected way is right because........  I start to holler and holler loud.  I admit to also getting involved when there is some BS justification for their actions too.  I sight both TG & PG's past failures only to put the question of doubt into the other members minds as they read it.  Their way simply has not worked for them yet.

KenC

KenC,  I don't think to the best of my memory that I ever advocated my course of actions for anyone else.  Yes, I did side with PG.  I can't say it was so much because I thought he was completely right in the way he was doing things.  It was more because I was very disturbed by the really rude treatment and cruel remarks that he was getting. 

How can you begin a post of lies with the word "truth?"
You posted many times about your inability to afford the expense and time to make more trips.  And you and I have discussed the issue of me saying anything negative about Larisa's appearance.  Anno and others were trashing Larisa's looks on the open forum.  I didn't post a thing about her looks.  You sent me emails asking for my opinion.  I refused or gave an affirmative answer.  In a PM to me from you on 8/23/05 you wrote:KenC

For what it is worth I don't remember you saying anything bad about Larisa's apearance. 

I began this post by mentioning that we need to identify the core issues here.  The problem with that is that PG gets too emotional for any real debate of the issues.  He remembers all the hurt feelings and goes off on emotional sidetracks, leaving the issues and rationality behind.  Way way up thread I posted a compliment to PG and his postings on this thread.  Later, I felt duty bound to point out somethings that he posted that were misleading or incorrect.  Whamo, the war was on.  Of course TG (the ultimate cheerleader that he is) feels obligated to save his friends from us bullies.

I like this board and I an't going no where.

My suggestion is this:
Let's open a thread in no holds barred to discuss the core issues that we disagree upon.  TG & PG can select an equal number of core issues as jb and I do.  We debate them one at a time.  Someone, or a few someones decide which side gave the best support to their point of view.  Debate over.  That does not necessarily mean that anyone has to change their opinion, but we will finally have *something* to point to as a reference of what is the desired approach to the selected issues.

You asked for some ideas, there is mine.  I am open to your suggested changes too.
KenC

That sounds like an excellent suggestion to me.  I have an idea though that if we strip it down to the core values and keep the emotions out of it the more experienced PG and the more experienced TG may agree with you on many of the core issues.

I am glad you are not going anywhere.  Your opinions and experience are invaluable

[Admin]

My suggestion is this:
Let's open a thread in no holds barred to discuss the core issues that we disagree upon.  TG & PG can select an equal number of core issues as jb and I do.  We debate them one at a time.  Someone, or a few someones decide which side gave the best support to their point of view.  Debate over.  That does not necessarily mean that anyone has to change their opinion, but we will finally have *something* to point to as a reference of what is the desired approach to the selected issues.

You asked for some ideas, there is mine.  I am open to your suggested changes too.
KenC

I wonder if we have ANYONE on the board who has previous experience with formal debate. Anyone?

If we can come up with a process which is fair and equitable and DIGNIFIED for everyone - then I am absolutely open to the idea.

From TB:
>>4. Items discussed in private messages are private, and should not be discussed on the board in any specifics. A general topic which came up in a private message could be started as a thread, but anyone's opinion other than your own should not be mentioned without the express permission of that person. Using items in private messages as an attack against another is expressly forbidden.<<

Seems like a good addition to the ToS. Look for it (or close facsimile) to appear in an upcoming revision.

- Dan

[KenC]

And this is where we know, without the slightest doubt, that the quarrel has gone to far.

On my own forum, the rules are explicit:

Here, I've noticed that not only does this prohibition NOT appear in the TOS, it doesn't seem to even blip on a number of members' radar, either . . . and I find that reprehensible.

Note, please, that I am not taking any sides in the current brouhaha, it frankly being meaningless to me and much of its roots going back to well before my entry into this forum. But when this kind of honorless sandbagging not only goes on regularly, but crops up in virtually every debate, and draws no disapprobal from mods nor members . . . sheeeeesh.  And you people want newbies to TRUST you?  

~Boar

Thise aren't the rules here, get over yourself.  I have posted two PM's in my time here and both times it was to show that the sender was posting lies on the board.  I see no problem with that at all.
KenC

[TexasBoar]

Thise aren't the rules here, get over yourself. 
KenC

You first. 

I would think that holding things related in confidence IN confidence would be fairly universally understood as the "rules" everywhere in polite society, Ken.  My mistake, obviously.

~Boar

[KenC]

You first. 

I would think that holding things related in confidence IN confidence would be fairly universally understood as the "rules" everywhere in polite society, Ken.  My mistake, obviously.

~Boar

I disagree.  I didn't request the PM nor did I pledge any secrecy to it.  If I had, then it would be for my eyes only to death.  I look at it as "off board" chit chat.  No more, no less.  What do you call a person that says one thing in private and the opposite on an open forum?  Honorable? 
KenC

[TexasBoar]

*shrug*

AFAIC, the fact that the function is labeled "private message" makes it so.  You obviously disagree, and equally obviously, are not above keeping such communications on file for future debate ammo.

As for your closing question . . . the answers could range from duplicitious to prevaricating to merely forgetful, lol. 

~Boar

[catzenmouse]

John,

 I truly apologize that my remark was taken that way. I did not mean it or intend it in any way to be bad. It was simply poking a bit of fun at those who do not think your experience or opinion has merit. You are one of the main reasons that all of us are able to continue to move forward and be successful.

 I hope you know from our past correspondences that I think very highly of you and take your thoughts here very seriously.

Ken

Dan,

I will happily withdraw from the RWD if the majority of the membership think my opinions are wrong to be heard by the newbie.  I guess they are when I'm listed as "the dispised jb" in a post from someone I liked and respected. 

Okay,  I'm outta here for now.  You guys have a nice life.

[ConnerVT]

I disagree.  I didn't request the PM nor did I pledge any secrecy to it.  If I had, then it would be for my eyes only to death.  I look at it as "off board" chit chat.  No more, no less.  What do you call a person that says one thing in private and the opposite on an open forum?  Honorable? 
KenC

And I'll agree with KenC on this as well.  Anytime someone puts anything in writing, be it a forum post, a PM, or a letter in the USPS system, they may find it open for any and all to see.

If I wrote to someone I trusted, and explicitly/implicitly requested it to remain private, I would hope they would honor my request.  Furthermore, if I then proceeded to attack him in public, I also would not expect that my previous writing would remain private.

The problem with leaving evidence, is it may be used against you.  Miranda rocks...

[KenC]

*shrug*

AFAIC, the fact that the function is labeled "private message" makes it so.  You obviously disagree, and equally obviously, are not above keeping such communications on file for future debate ammo.

As for your closing question . . . the answers could range from duplicitious to prevaricating to merely forgetful, lol. 

~Boar

Sorry to be the one to tell you, but you are wrong!  "PM" stands for "personal" message not "private".  (Check your mailbox, dude) Now that my message is my "personal" message, I guess it is OK to do what I personally want, huh?
KenC

[TexasBoar]

Oh, wow . . . you got me there, Ken! 

~Boar

[KenC]

Oh, wow . . . you got me there, Ken! 

~Boar

It's OK, I still love ya!  (And I am still trying to figure out WTF "duplicitious" means.  I do know that it is misspelled though)
KenC

[TexasBoar]

Darn! How'd that friggin' "i" get in there? 

Nonetheless, kindly take no offense at the fact that I am blocking your personal messages until such time as Dan chooses to amend the TOS.

I'm not handing out any ammo to anyone.   

~Boar

[KenC]

Darn! How'd that friggin' "i" get in there? 

Nonetheless, kindly take no offense at the fact that I am blocking your personal messages until such time as Dan chooses to amend the TOS.

I'm not handing out any ammo to anyone.   

~Boar

That's cool by me. 
KenC