How necessary English?

[KenC]

Simple question that should not add to the cloud this topic always creates:

What would you suggest the proportion of English speaking RW is between the Ages of 20 - 30;versus 30 - 40; in primary cities like Kiev; Odessa; STP; and Moscow; versus the secondary cities like Tver; Kherson?

(Is there a Russian Ukrainian statistical Abstract, so I can stop asking these type of questions?)

Rivardco,
I don't have an answer to your question about percentages and age groups, but I would imagine that cities with large universities would be a factor.  Tver State University has 12,000 students for example.  I know that their English study classes are always full, so that would be an influence in the general area. 

When Lena was in high school, the foreign language of choice was German.  Her mom even signed her up for German classes.  After a huge family battle, Lena was allowed to switch to English.  Of course now English is the preferred foreign language to study in Russian schools (at least in Tver).  With this trending toward English studies, I would guess that the younger demographics would have a higher percentage of English than the older.

Michael,
TFF!   
KenC

[LEGAL]

With this trending toward English studies, I would guess that the younger demographics would have a higher percentage of English than the older.
Michael,
TFF!   
KenC

Be sure, It's true. It is easy to forget even Russian without  regular practice  But if woman remembers basic English, in due course she will remember it all.

Olga

[jb]

KenC,

English has been the most commonly studied foreign language in all of Russia for the past 15 or so years,,, just about since Gorby did the "Opening".  There should be lots of women in Russia with at least some English.

As I/O ponted out, there is no downside to dating a woman who knows at least some English.  Gator also made some good points regarding the time needed to sort out the wheat from the chaff, i.e., is a man willing to put his life on hold that long?  My wife spoke near perfect English and we still dated for two years before leaping off the cliff.  Gator would prolly say we rushed things a bit, at least we weren't a one week wonder story.

I also like the input regarding phone time after you mutually decide to become a couple.  The phone is an excellent tool if used properly.  Of course, if the girl/woman speaks no English, the tool is useless.

However a man does this, if your girl arrives with zero English and you have zero Russian, your 90 day K-1 is going to be a nightnare by comparison to the guy who's g/f has basic English.  I've heard the arguement about limiting yourself and your available pool of women if you only seek a woman w/English.  Frankly, I think that's bad logic.  I've been on record with this viewpoint for years and no one has been able to sway me yet.

[Photo Guy]

My opinion on this subject isn't all about my own experiences. What do you say to
all the guys who met and later married women who didn't speak English well? (or Flemish,etc.)
If those guys had followed your advice to the letter, they would not now be with
their loving wife- it would've been a different woman, or maybe no wife at all.
Those cases prove to me that it is not all black and white. That is my point.
Why ignore those cases, those possibilities?  Sure, for me personally, as I've said
many times, I've made mistakes. It's just that her lack of English skills
was not some kind of deal-breaker for us. It could've been for some other
couple, but not us. And the idea that we were going to jump into a marriage
without exploring each other further is far from accurate, and why pretend
that was the reality?  If she speaks the same language as you, fantastic.
If she doesn't, she can learn. If things go south, it may be because you
aren't that compatible, or any number of reasons. While you are traveling
in Kiev, you may stumble upon that woman of your dreams at the train station,
and she may not be very good at your language. It could work. Keep an
open mind and follow your heart. I know a number of guys here at RWD
who have married great women, who initially had bad language skills.
   ....And that's a fact, not a 'delusion', as KenC would say.

[KenC]

jb,
Your timeline of 15 years ago is about right on for Lena.  She was on the front side of that wave and Momma was going on the old logic.

Lena's English skills improved dramatically during our phone call marathon prior to and after our meeting.  Lots of hesitation and stuttering and stammering at first while she searched her brain for the words.  After hours of daily "lessons" with me on the phone, she was rather fluent when we met.  Interestingly enough Lena had a meeting with the head of the psychology department this morning and she commented to Lena that not only was her diction and grammar well defined, but her vocabulary was very rich too.

A funny comment Lena made years ago was that she knew she "crossed the bridge" when she started dreaming in English!
KenC

[KenC]

Photo,
Keep dreaming buddy as it has worked so well for you so far!
KenC

[I/O]

Couple of points here.  Limiting the pool type thinking as JB points out is bad logic.  The pool is very very big and if you limit it from a 100 000 to 10 000 it is still a large pool from which to choose.

Kenc and rivardco I am only speaking from observations and I have no data to support my comments, but similar to Kenc's wife, my fiance' was pushed to German studies at school, much to her disgust, she also speaks Chineese and some Vietnameese.  Now she is focused on English and complains to her parents even more bitterly about the ethos during her school years, but I think any language is never wasted.  Kenc, mine remarked similarly regarding "Thinking In English".  That certainly is a big watershed for them when that time arrives.  Sadly I am a long way short of thinking in Russian, but I do spend a lot of time thinking when I am trying to speak in Russian.

The bottom line is that I think from what I have seen it is a smaller percentage that can converse fluently in English even amoung the younger demographic.  However, with the shift towards more general English learning, there is many who can understand a few words.  Puting percentages acurately on this would, I suspect be near impossible.

Whatever you choose, learn some Russian before you go, again there is simply NO downside to this.

P/G I think you are failing to get a handle on what these forums are all about.  Nobody is saying anything is impossible.  To assume that is simply being super sensitive .  These forums and this particular one is about helping people with "Risk Mitigation".  You seem to be advocating increasing the risk and to push that to a freshman is irresponsible. 

I can tell any freshman, although I have done the other thing, if I was faced with having to start again, language would be very very high on my list of criteria and by that time I would have a helluva lot more experience than the average freshman.  There is simply NO downside to choosing a lady who has some similar language skills to yourself.  "Risk Managment" in it's simplest form.

I/O

[Turboguy]

T/G I think you are failing to get a handle on what these forums are all about.  Nobody is saying anything is impossible.  To assume that is simply being super sensitive .  These forums and this particular one is about helping people with "Risk Mitigation".  You seem to be advocating increasing the risk and to push that to a freshman is irresponsible. 

I can tell any freshman, although I have done the other thing, if I was faced with having to start again, language would be very very high on my list of criteria and by that time I would have a helluva lot more experience than the average freshman.  There is simply NO downside to choosing a lady who has some similar language skills to yourself.  "Risk Management" in it's simplest form.

I/O

I/O  You addressed that to T/G.  I have a feeling you meant P/G since I have not expressed my feelings on this topic at all, or barely at all. 

Basically I see this topic as much like age difference.   Everyone has their thoughts and ideas and feels strongly about it and no one is going to be persuaded anyway.  Since I am here and got dragged into it I will throw out my one cents worth.

First off we are all different and have our own strengths and weaknesses.   I think there are guys that should not even think about tackling a relationship with someone who doesn't speak English and some who could deal with it quite well. 

I have no idea what percentage of women in Kiev, Dneper, Zap etc speak passable English.   I know that about half the gals I have met in Kiev speak great English.   I know when I went on Jack's tour to the smaller cities, about 5% of the gals I met did.   Let's say it is 20% and I think that is generous.   

Now, what percentage of the men are willing to tackle a relationship with a woman who does not know English.   About the only ones in this discussion who seem to be willing are Gator and P/G.   Let's be generous and say 80% would not touch a gal with no English.   Based on this discussion I would say 20% is quite generous.

OK, so what do you have.   You have 80% of the guys chasing 20% of the women and 20% of the guys who are willing to persue 80% of the women.  (Actually 100% of the women,  since they would not rule out a woman who does speak English.   It sounds to me like that 20% of they guys may not be all that dumb.

How much does common language let you know someone?   If someone wants to fool you, they can do it just as well with or without language.  Look at the story Maxx told about Gary.  They could communicate and until she was here she did an Academy Award performance.   In the  case of my failed K-1, I spent about 5-6 weeks with her before she came here and 89 days with her here.   Language was not an issue.  Her English was not perfect but we could communicate.   It took until the last month she was here for me to know that there was not an honest word that came out of her mouth. She could be simultaneously telling 6 different people 6 different stories. 

If the woman is sincere and has some intelligence which seems a common quality with the woman there, in the time you spend getting to know each other and the time it takes for the visa there is lots of time for her to learn English. 

My own feelings are that if there are red flags to see they will be more in actions than in what she tells you.   How she treats others, how she reacts in certain situations.  How she reacts to you.   What her spending and lifestyle habits are.   How she behaves around friends and family.   People can tell you anything.   They will often tell you what the think that you want to hear if it will get them what they think they want.   

OK, so my feelings are that language is not a make or break situation if someone has a lot of patience and the woman is willing to work at the problem.   For me, it is a non issue and nothing I have to deal with to know if I am right or wrong.  My gal has excellent English and plans to work hard to learn even more.   P/G needs to do what he believes in and the same goes for everyone else.   It is an individual choice and there is no right or wrong.  It is right for some and wrong for some.

[Photo Guy]

KenC,
How is it working for me so far? Not bad. Fair. Are you asking me what kind of women
I've dated in the FSU? What's your point? I don't see much of a correlation between
my ability to find a nice woman and her ability to speak my language. I dated a couple
of women in Kiev last time. One spoke English, the other didn't.  From that limited experience I
would not make a sweeping generalization about the Necessity of English. I agree with
TG's attitude of 'To each his own', and his post makes total sense to me, as does CaptB's.

[I/O]

I/O  You addressed that to T/G.  I have a feeling you meant P/G

Yes you were quite correct and apologies tendered herewith. (Typo since corrected)


I/O

[BC]

PG,

I think what folks may be trying to point out is that there is a huge difference between dating a woman without a common language and marrying one. 

The really tough stuff starts a bit later..  believe me that's when good verbal communication skills really pan out.

[DKMM]

If someone were so concerned about a larger pool, that person should be taking Russian classes.  I think we are all looking for a larger pool though.

I for one will not limit myself to English speakers, although I can appreciate the difficulty of not being able to express yourself and the myriad of other problems inherent in limited communication.  It was very difficult for the 1st half of my last trip, until we figured out how to make it work.  But for me, I think to myself in Russian more and more since I've been doing this RW thing for almost a year now.  Even dreaming in Russian (now that's fun!). 

English can be learned by someone smart and motivated (which are the most important qualities), whereas so many other traits and features cannot be learned.  Bring on the poor English speakers!

[ScottinCrimea]

     I started this thread thinking that this would be a good opportunity for those who have been successful to explain to the newbies how the chances of success in marrying an FSU woman are much better if they speak some English.  As one who has gone through the process, seen many go through the process and who has lived in Ukraine for 2 years, this seemed to me to be a no brainer.  It seems that the only argument against this is that the dating pool gets smaller.  If you're a quality man, that isn't an issue.  Besides, I thought people were here to find someone to marry, not someone to date.  The only one who seems to be firm for the other side is P/G, who has dated many and is married to none.  I congratulate him on his big dating pool.  With my Russian language skills, I have my pick of a very huge dating pool, especially since I live here, but I still would never consider a woman who couldn't speak some English, just as my wife wouldn't consider someone who was not willing to learn some Russian and try to understand her culture, and believe me, she could have her pick of men if she was willing to settle, which she wasn't.
     Like was said before, we are talking about optimizing the process and mitigating the risk.  Having someone you can effectively communicate with is just one more way to do that.  If you're willing to increase the risk of failure or of prolonging the process, that's your choice and I'll certainly support anyone in their decision, but if anyhone sincerely wants my advice, I think it's pretty clear.  So you newbies, PM all the guys who you think are successful and who's opinions you respect and ask them what they think, then look at the percentages who tell you one thing or the other and I think you will have your answer.

[jb]

P/G,

I had kinda pledged to myself not to respond to your stuff,,, but sometimes you go too far with re-writing history

And the idea that we were going to jump into a marriage
without exploring each other further is far from accurate, and why pretend
that was the reality?

Did I get the facts fuzzy?  I was under the impression that you spent less than a week in Kiev in the company of Larisa, a woman with whom you could not talk.  I seem to recall your complaining about 3-way phone calls being somewhat expensive so you only called once a week or so, and for short periods of time.  Then, did you not go ahead and file for the K-1 visa? 

Those items do indeed tell us you didn't explore each other very much, and by the act of getting the K-1 visa tells us, in fact, that you were prepared to marry the woman within the allotted 90 days.  You wrote many times of how much you loved her, so why wouldn't you marry if she had been willing?

You keep referring to a great body of men out there who are enjoying years of happy and successful marriages to women with whom they could not initially talk to without a translator.  Personally I do not see that trend.  However, the trend I have observed over time is that just about every crash and burn story of a failed K-1 romance has involved two people who could not communicate even what they wanted to eat for breakfast.

The brief case history of relationships laid out here on RWD just do not support the thesis.

I also realize that there is nothing anyone here can say to sway your romantic vision of the future, that's OK, none of us any longer care if you sink or swim anymore, but please stop pushing your "facts" out there for the newbies to gobble up.  If just one gullible soul picks up the romantic vision you spew forth and elects to rush into a badly framed relationship because of it, you will have done terrible harm.

[Turboguy]

      Besides, I thought people were here to find someone to marry, not someone to date.  The only one who seems to be firm for the other side is P/G, who has dated many and is married to none.  I congratulate him on his big dating pool.  

Scott, I agree that most everyone here is looking for a wife.  I don't think what you said really describes P/G.  I am not saying this as a negative just to correct your statement.  P/G got engaged to the first gal he met and then made one trip back and dated a few new ones.  He is back in the early stages of this hopefully a little wiser for the experience.

P/G,
You keep referring to a great body of men out there who are enjoying years of happy and successful marriages to women with whom they could not initially talk to without a translator.  Personally I do not see that trend.  However, the trend I have observed over time is that just about every crash and burn story of a failed K-1 romance has involved two people who could not communicate even what they wanted to eat for breakfast.

jb,  I have a feeling if there were some way to do a detailed statistical analysis of the failures at this quest that the number one cause of failure would not be language but rather not taking the time to know each other or not really knowing each other in the case of those who did take more time. 

As far as PG goes when he got involved with Larisa he was a total newbie here.  Personally I think RWD is the best learning experience there is.  I know I learned more in a short time here from experts like you and from newbies thrashing around the pro's and con's of things that they wanted to try, from the TR's and the support of others.   None of us know everything and with personal relationships you can be the smartest guy in the world and still make a mistake.   PG had to learn some things the hard way but he has learned a lot.   I don't think you will see him make the same mistake twice.

I have seen people do just fine with no common language.  I think for those in the process now, such as Gator, it will not be a problem.   In my time searching I met gals with great English and gals with no English.   I never had a problem deciding if there was potential with the ones with no English.   It was not a bit harder than for those who spoke English.

In my case if VWRW had not known English I am not sure we would have ended up together because it is the communication we have and her intelligence and insight that really drew me to her.  Perhaps that would not have come across as well had we not been able to communicate and perhaps I would.  I don't know one way or the other.  If that had not worked out I probably would have persued one of the ones from Jack's trip, non of whom seemed to know a single word of English.  The lack of common language would not have dissuaded me a bit. 

We seem to have two opinions here that everyone subscribes to.

1.  Those who say it can never work and it is totally hopeless.
2.  Those who say it is not important and if two people care about each other they will make it work.

Those who believe one of those two concepts believe they are totally right.  I think they are both wrong.   I think there is no right or wrong answer and it is mainly dependent on the two individuals involved.   I think there are many men and women who should not try it.  I think there are many who can do just fine.  Just because one course is right for you does not mean it is right for someone else.   I do think it takes two special and committed people to overcome the additional obstacles that lack of common language presents.  I do think it can be done.  I have seen it done.

[KenC]

Turbo,
You raise some good points as well as some misleading ones too.

It was not a bit harder than for those who spoke English.

That has to be one of your most ridiculous statements ever!  Followed by your contradictory statement of:

In my case if VWRW had not known English I am not sure we would have ended up together because it is the communication we have and her intelligence and insight that really drew me to her.  Perhaps that would not have come across as well had we not been able to communicate and perhaps I would.

 

I don't know one way or the other.  If that had not worked out I probably would have persued one of the ones from Jack's trip, non of whom seemed to know a single word of English.  The lack of common language would not have dissuaded me a bit. 

Clearly your plan "B" or second choice.

We seem to have two opinions here that everyone subscribes to.

1.  Those who say it can never work and it is totally hopeless.
2.  Those who say it is not important and if two people care about each other they will make it work.

Your #1 is not what we are saying here at all!  If you would pay a little closer attention here, you would see that most of us are saying that it is possible but to be done without taking a substantial risk, it will take much more time.  This allows for the RW to get her language skills up to speed before pulling the trigger on marriage.  No one said it was impossible, or it can never work.

You know Turbo, you really do not help newbies here with your continuously pointing out of exceptions to the rules or obscure chances for success.  We all know that there are exceptions and that there were some that went against the grain of all logic and it worked for them.  But is that the best advice for newbies?  Every time someone gives advice that may be 99% correct, you have to point out the 1% chance of the opposite approach.  Do you think that is a wise way to administer advice?  You have so much experience in this, I am afraid that some poor sap is going to give equal credibility to your "but it could happen" theories that would mislead them down a wrong path.  "Wrong" meaning a path with a very unlikely success potential.  Shouldn't we be promoting the best possible way to go about this?  And not making it more confusing than it already is?
KenC

[William3rd]

ENGLISH ABILITY AND COMMUNICATION DOES MATTER- Lack of communication is the number one cause of failure in relationships. If you can’t talk to each other, then how do you know you are truly compatible? When you are together 24/7 with no translator, then how can you interact if you can’t understand each other? The answer is that you just can’t do it. Unless you are prepared to invest in some English lessons for your fiancée, you are better served in concentrating on women with at least some English speaking ability.


Guys-if you dont think that communication matters, then I can sell you a tin foil hat to wear after I sell you that bridge that I own.

I can not see how anybody can seriously say that they can have any relationship of substance when you are limited to a dictionary and hand signals. I know that the sex tourists dont care, but for the majority of men, there is no relationship without deep levels of communication.

[William3rd]

Why dont we take odds on the likelihood of the advice on any given issue being sound? I volunteer to be the house . Standard vig of 10% OK?

[Michelangelo]

We seem to have two opinions here that everyone subscribes to.

1.  Those who say it can never work and it is totally hopeless.
2.  Those who say it is not important and if two people care about each other they will make it work.

Hmmm.....that's not what I'm reading here....

I think experienced and concerned people are saying that marriage is very difficult and you had better have a common language.  For even if you marry a stranger (bad idea), you will have to get to know her and assist her through adjustments in the US later on~ and for that process she better have good English.

For newbies, look at the opinions here, and that the vast majority say that a basic knowledge of English is important.

[LEGAL]

"A family is a place where minds come in contact with one another. If these minds love one another the home will be as beautiful as a flower garden. But if these minds get out of harmony with one another it is like a storm that plays havoc with the garden".
Buddha

Minds are separated from the communication. It is incredible!!!

Olga.

[Turboguy]

Turbo,
You raise some good points as well as some misleading ones too.
That has to be one of your most ridiculous statements ever! 

Ken, I have a feeling I have met more gals in my search than many.  I can only post based on those experiences.   I had no difficulty at all ruling out gals who spoke no English based on observations.   Observations I found with no English included, horrible tempers, heavy drinkers, shopaholics, wild, dangerous, lack of morals. laziness, self centeredness, etc. 

Followed by your contradictory statement of:   

I think people fall in love for different reasons.  I think you would have to agree that many people in their search fall in love with a photo which we all know is not bright.  I think a lot of the attraction AM find for RW is based a lot on the physical side of things which is also maybe not all that good.  A lot of guys meet a very attractive gal who is intelligent, warm and romantic and they are in love.  They will overlook some compatability issues because she is "hot" to them.   How many would fall for the same gal if she was not attractive.   You won't need too many fingers to count that one.  I will say this even if you won't believe it.  VWRW could be a lot less attractive and I would still feel the same about her.  I am not saying that would stretch to 300 pounds and downright ugly but with her the communications were a big factor.   

Clearly your plan "B" or second choice.Your #1 is not what we are saying here at all!  If you would pay a little closer attention here, you would see that most of us are saying that it is possible but to be done without taking a substantial risk, it will take much more time.  This allows for the RW to get her language skills up to speed before pulling the trigger on marriage.  No one said it was impossible, or it can never work.

I had a feeling plan "B" was plan "B" on the spot but I had not had my first meeting with VWRW at that time and was not going to count my chickens before they hatched.  What I found with VWRW was something that is unusual.  If I would have had to go to plan "B" it would have been more in line with what I described as typical.  Finding someone physically attractive who seemed intelligent, romantic and like a good person and building a relationship with them and hoping for the best.  The language would not have scared me.

You know Turbo, you really do not help newbies here with your continuously pointing out of exceptions to the rules or obscure chances for success.  We all know that there are exceptions and that there were some that went against the grain of all logic and it worked for them.  But is that the best advice for newbies?  Every time someone gives advice that may be 99% correct, you have to point out the 1% chance of the opposite approach.  Do you think that is a wise way to administer advice?  You have so much experience in this, I am afraid that some poor sap is going to give equal credibility to your "but it could happen" theories that would mislead them down a wrong path.  "Wrong" meaning a path with a very unlikely success potential.  Shouldn't we be promoting the best possible way to go about this?  And not making it more confusing than it already is?
KenC

When I said that it seemed like most people felt it either was possible or not, reading the posts everyone says one thing and when called on it seems to gravitate to it adding a lot of complications and making a difficult task even more difficult but that it can be done.  That is about my feelings too.   I was not advising anyone on anything.  I think anyone who tackles a relationship with no common language needs to think long and hard about if they are up for it and if the gal has the drive and patience to have a chance for it to work.   I still think it is an individual call.  I think some can do it and some shouldn't even think about it.  I think Gator could do it quite well, I think PG can.  I think if I would have had to, I could have.  I see some guys that I don't think could do it.  I see others that probably could if they wanted to but they don't.  That is all fine.  I still say it is an individual thing.  As far as any advice to a newbie.  Try for a gal who speaks English.  It will greatly increase your chances of success.  If a newbie thinks he is up to the extra challenges of a gal who does not speak English then he should use his own judgement but hopefully after reading these posts he will have a much better idea of the increased challenges he is facing.

[Photo Guy]

BC
you wrote:

I think what folks may be trying to point out is that there is a huge difference between dating a woman without a common language and marrying one.

The really tough stuff starts a bit later..  believe me that's when good verbal communication skills really pan out.

I completely agree. As the relationship moves forward, the necessity of a common langage is crucial.

jb, No, some of your facts are way off- but are we talking about love, marriage, romance, or
the 'Necessity of English'. There are may details of my personal life that I have kept hidden
from this public forum, as many others have. 

PS Yes Larisa was quite lovable. This became more evident as time went on. So what's your point?
I made about a hundred phone calls to her before she came over.

What woud you say to the guys who have succeeded in spite of language difficulties?
Would you tell them they had made a mistake, even though they are now in a happy marriage?

We all know a common language makes things easier. Newbies aren't stupid. I think they
understand that. I am promoting the idea of keeping your options open. Be flexible.
Have a plan B, C, etc. Be open to the idea of a woman without good language skills.
She may be the one for you....or not. Where there is a will, there is a way.
If 'better odds' are very important to you, date only women with perfect language skills.

[KenC]

  And the idea that we were going to jump into a marriage
without exploring each other further is far from accurate, and why pretend
that was the reality?   I know a number of guys here at RWD
who have married great women, who initially had bad language skills.
   ....And that's a fact, not a 'delusion', as KenC would say.

Okay dokay, Photo,
If it is not accurate that you were willing to marry Larisa without exploring her further; why then did you post this on 5/20/06?

I urged her to marry me and then get Advanced Parole for a trip back to Ukraine, but this would require too much time.  She needed to sort through her feelings about her family and her feelings about me.

Rewriting history yet again?
KenC

[Michelangelo]

As far as any advice to a newbie.  Try for a gal who speaks English.  It will greatly increase your chances of success.  If a newbie thinks he is up to the extra challenges of a gal who does not speak English then he should use his own judgement but hopefully after reading these posts he will have a much better idea of the increased challenges he is facing.

Great advice, Turgo.  Excellent, in fact.

[jb]

Yeah, Ken, I remember reading that but was too lazy to hunt it down.