Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!

[Turboguy]

I have not been very active in this thread becuase I like both Pavel and Kuna and wasn't there to know what really happened.

Something I heard long ago and never forgot was:

The cause of a dissatisfied customer is unfullfilled expectations.  

It isn't how good or bad the service is often it is how it measures up to what you expect.   If you pay $ 20.00 for an apartment and it turns out to be a dump, you will be happy.  If you paid $ 125.00 for it you won't.  If you get what you think you will then all is well.

I have found long ago that in any business relationship there needs to be a clear understanding of everything.   Prices, services and all that need to be explained and understood.   Having things in writing is a very good policy.   In my business once we came with an employee manual it saved a lot of problems.

As far as adding a little to the cost of things such as tickets I don't see adding a little profit in for the tour guide as wrong.   Most anyone in any business tries to build a profit margin into any transaction when at all possible.   I do think if you are doing that you should not imply you are giving the best possible or local price.  Saying a good price is not wrong.  If something was $ 10.00 in cost and someone would normally pay $ 20.00 then charging him $12.00 or even $ 15.00 would be within the range of norman practices. 

I have no idea where the real story is in this situation.  I think there was some miscommunication.   I think there were some unfulfilled expectations.   I think both parties have learned from it. 

Life is that way.   Sometimes we just must learn from something and move on.  I think that is exactly what is right for this situation.  Put it down to a learning experience and move on.

On the subject of hiring and firing that was back a few pages.  I am probably in the middle.  I have hired maybe 500 or more.   On firing, I think one of my memories was watching a 55 year old man cry for 15 minutes when I fired him.   The other was a time when we crossed our fingers that the guy would not shoot some people when we fired him.

[DonAz]

Is a guide acting in your best interests?  No, I don't think so. Can you have a safe trip to Ukraine without a guide?  Yes absolutely, if you're not irresponsible and you realise everyone you meet after landing is after the same thing.

There is no one on earth who is acting in your best interests except for you and probably your mother, that is simple. But if you want somebody to act in your best interest, you can achieve it by specifically asking them for it and paying them so much that they can forget about all other interests they have – you may want to make it clear also and explain that you are paying them so much hoping they will get you really best deals and results they truly can for anything you need. Of course it only applies to honest people but they can be found out there. No, it doesn't work with dishonest people but if you assume that all people are dishonest it raises suspicions, if all are, aren't you?

Yes it's true that you don't need a guide in Ukraine or Russia and can get around on your own if you really need to. Reading streets signs, negotiating prices, finding your way is possible even if you a stranger. Just learn some words and use your common sense.

Having said that, I don't see however why a traveler must not use guides at any rate. The fact that you can do something on your own does not mean you should do everything this way though. If there is something where you know for sure that hiring someone will save you time and effort if not money, why not do it? Hey you can even walk instead of taking a cab (and being ripped off) or sleep in a tent instead of renting an apartment (and very expensive at that) but for some reason you usually chose the last - and while you can also do without a guide/interpreter, if you can do better with him/her I personally see no prob in hiring one. Of course you should negotiate all their rates and conditions and make sure you know what you get; this goes without saying; but providing that everything is clear and agreed on and you can afford it I see no reason why you could not use it.

Of course, people are different and for some one them the joy of saving some bucks outweighs possible advantages of having an aide around but others may be more interested in enjoying their trip to the full extent even if it costs some extra. If you are there why not just enjoy yourself – hey it's not business it's pleasure. No questions when you get some experience you can do pretty well on your own but for newbies I wouldn't recommend it though. Anyway, this thread gives enough food for thought for someone contemplating a journey to Ukraine/Russia and I am sure that they will make their own conclusions and while some will realize that they can go on your own despite being told before you cannot make a step without a guide, some others may also wake up to the reality and see that they had better hire an aide there. Yes it's a VIP service so think if you can afford it.

To me the difference is ease comfort and not wasting my time. I like full service and I am happy to pay for it. Lets compare a vacation at time share to one at a  resort ( a bit of a stretch I know). When you are on vacation and staying in a time share you do your own cooking cleaning laundry etc. its cheap  no doubt about that, but comes at the cost of wasting a lot of your vacation time. Well that isn’t for me.
Now if you stay in a resort ( I know I know-never gonna stay in a resort in the FSU ) you have a concierge at your beck and call. All your wishes and desires are accommodated cheerfully and swiftly and you pay out the kazoo for it. but you receive what you want and do not waste valuable vacation time.

IMO Folks in this adventure should consider a guide they may use in the a FSU  as a Majordomos, an assistant , man ( woman) Friday. I think for a first time traveler to the FSU it is a wise decision to use a guide. Thy can be invaluable. While I do not know Stirlitz or Pavel I know from years of reading the RW boards they are well liked, trusted and admired.

If I were a new guy and heading to Ukraine they would be on my speed dial and I would happily employ them and contrary to the thinking of others I would have no problem making friends with them and paying them at the same time.

DonAz

[Jack]

DonZ let me ask you a question.

If ALL things were equal, the quality of service from interpreter A was the same, identical,  as interpreter B.  They were both pleasant, smiled, good people. Both had many happy previous clients.

Interpreter A charged $20 an hour.  Interpreter B charged $10 an hour.  Which interpreter would you choose?

[Mir]

There is no one on earth who is acting in your best interests except for you and probably your mother (and father)

[Makkin]

Hello,

  Mama and Papa are sure bets.

Makkin

[DonAz]

DonZ let me ask you a question.

If ALL things were equal, the quality of service from interpreter A was the same, identical,  as interpreter B.  They were both pleasant, smiled, good people. Both had many happy previous clients.

Interpreter A charged $20 an hour.  Interpreter B charged $10 an hour.  Which interpreter would you choose?

Jack

I don't buy your theory of equality. There is usually a valid reason for higher fees. Just like other good professionals. Usually the better ones have higher fees. Your situation is purely hypothetical because you cannot know for sure which interpreter is really best. But we are talking for real here.



The easy answer is * the one I trust more and I feel has a better grasp of what I require.* The difference in cost is not my primary concern. Ability and service is. — ten bucks do not make a big difference. Ability and service is and does.


I consider guides to be professionals. I never chose any professional on the basis of cost. If you need a Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant, engineer etc.. you DO NOT  chose on the basis of cost you chose the best you can find.

Do not pick a guide like you pick groceries. You are an adventure, maybe a mission, why waste time, why pick less then the best regardless of a minimum amount of money.


The whole adventure, as you well know, is very expensive. A guide is the least of  the cost and may be the most important assert for a first time traveler to the FSU. You know that as well as I do  Jack as you fulfill that service yourself. I do not think it is fair for you to criticize  your competition in the way you do. You cheapen and disregard the qualities of the others who compete with you. I think some of you guys think guides are no more then peasants to do your bidding and just throw a few crumbs their way. Would anyone here tolerate that kind of treatment. If someone attempted to treat me in that fashion they would quickly feel my stinger.

Lets show some respect for these people. The same kind of respect we demand for ourselves. No one is less then us, even if they are in our employ!

DonAz

[William3rd]

Oh,  come on. . . . . If all other things are equal, you go with the cheaper one. Who are you kidding?

IF I can get the same exact blender at Wal Mart, why would I go to Sears?

Of course, after reading the actual words of one of these guides here, I would take a real hard look before employing a guide.

[Stirlitz]

May you convincingly explain why? Without emotion please, just pure reason. Take me, for example. I know that you don’t like me because I am not a fan of marital fidelity. However, personal dislikes and beliefs aside, what’s wrong with me as a guide?

Just wondering.

This thread has not proved to be too constructive, but I still have a hope to hear something more than I was ripped off!! Don’t assume I am an idiot!! and other stuff like that.

[DonAz]

Oh,  come on. . . . . If all other things are equal, you go with the cheaper one. Who are you kidding?

IF I can get the same exact blender at Wal Mart, why would I go to Sears?

Of course, after reading the actual words of one of these guides here, I would take a real hard look before employing a guide.

Funny an attorney would come on and say that. Especially one who was affiliated with an agency  for many years.  Did this agency offer guide service and charge whopping fees for that service. Run full service tours?  Damn straight they did and still do. They charge a fee on top of every accommodation they provide. Do they not?

So tell me William why is that acceptable for this agency you were affiliated with but not for  the independent guys?

William how can you presume to know what I would do unless I tell you? You can not!

Again I do not think it is fair to treat these guys like they are less then we are or to be compared to blenders. No more then you should be as an attorney. Do you think you are to be compared to a blender that is just an inanimate object? I don't think so.

 Since when is personal service and guidance something you would or could get at a Sears or Walmart...come on... Who are you kidding. Do you not charge tons of money for your personal service and expertise? Of course you do. Your fees are probably in the hundreds of dollars per hour. NO? what do you have to offer your clients? You offer  advise, knowledge, and expertise. I’m sure you’re a pretty good lawyer and you are charging accordingly.

What do  guides have to offer? Thy offer advise, knowledge, and expertise and have the right to charge accordingly.

I think it is very disrespectful to anyone to be treated like they are of little value or compared to a blender. Ain't right man.

DonAz

[Mir]

DonAz

I think the whole argument on this thread is not on what a guide is allowed to charge but that he/she should be open and upfront about what he/she charges and should not use stealth to make extra money from the client.

[BC]

Oh,  come on. . . . . If all other things are equal, you go with the cheaper one. Who are you kidding?

IF I can get the same exact blender at Wal Mart, why would I go to Sears?

William,

I'm sure you will agree it's not that simple.. after all even identical twins are quite different and who knows how 'identical' clones will actually be when they come along.

Hmm... two lawyers, same schooling, graduated at the same time with same gpa,  etc etc... one charges 200, the other 300.. I think I'd probably rely on personal references.

Surely you can file a better brief than that... lol

[Kuna]

There is no one on earth who is acting in your best interests except for you and probably your mother, that is simple. But if you want somebody to act in your best interest, you can achieve it by specifically asking them for it and paying them so much that they can forget about all other interests they have – you may want to make it clear also and explain that you are paying them so much hoping they will get you really best deals and results they truly can for anything you need. Of course it only applies to honest people but they can be found out there. No, it doesn't work with dishonest people but if you assume that all people are dishonest it raises suspicions, if all are, aren't you?

Blah Blah Blah... *YAWN*

Sorry DonAZ...  I haven't interacted with you in the past (I don't think) and I haven't read many of your posts but I read the opening two lines of your post and saw the same misconception that I thought we'd already resolved in here.

The point is I DID pay the requested SERVICE FEE before arriving which was explained as the fee that would get me BEST PRICES.  That is a fairly clear promise and transaction.

I DID find out that the prices I was getting were not BEST PRICE.  It wasn't even the Tourist Price, it was ABOVE the Tourist Price.

I can't call Pavel dishonest because I think he's a nice guy and I don't want to tarnish his name with a personal attack, but I WILL say that he didn't give me the best advice at times and I caught him being dishonest at times.  There was an secretive profit motive attached to our transactions that breached trust because it was contrary to our engagement as promised by him.  "Trust me, Pay me a fee and I will protect you while you're in Ukraine".. I trusted, I paid the requested amount and I wasn't protected from people who would rip me off.

If I pay someone a SERVICE FEE to get me BEST PRICES I expect best prices and the BEST advice.  If the guide can't make a profit on the engagement he should (in my opinion) be honest and charge a larger upfront fee, get the client the best price and tell the client he will add 25% (or so) to all services he arranges as his fee... or even charge a daily fee for the term of the trip to "look after you"....  but if you're paying to be "looked after" then you damn well should be looked after.

What I think is amazing is when I read posts when people say "Oh, there is only a small price difference and you should get over it".

If someone is giving a scammer small amounts of money for Internet charges etc, should he be peeved when he finds out he was mislead?  In my opinion a guide that skims small amounts of money is also breaching the trust relationship IF he breaches the trust that was promised.

DonAZ,  the most foolish thing you said is to pay them SO MUCH that they can forget all other interests they have!  Are you one of those Americans that go to FSU and throw your money around to look good?  Do you suggest others go there and try to prove the power of the $? How much are you talking about?  Throw them $100 for nothing?  $500?  $1000?  More?  

Their interest is money and they won't ignore that interest.  I'm confident if you engage a guide and you agree on a price and a service and then you throw him $1000 EXTRA you still won't get best price... in fact you'd probably get even worse prices because his short term concept of business would make him see you as a pot of gold and he would keep digging in.

This thread has now twisted into so many different directions and the only message I have for newbies is IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE A GUIDE BE VERY VERY CAREFUL AND DO NOT THROW MONEY AROUND IN FSU!  You can't buy trust and honesty when dealing with strangers in FSU and a guide is a stranger no matter what he tells you.

The discrepancies may only be a small amount but if you have total trust in anyone and you don't treat them as harshly as you would treat a taxi driver you might find out later the amounts are much more significant.

Kuna

[DonAz]

DonAz

I think the whole argument on this thread is not on what a guide is allowed to charge but that he/she should be open and upfront about what he/she charges and should not use stealth to make extra money from the client.

Mir,
I see quite a several arguments about guides. Some are about price and some about usefullness. I see comments that I feel degrade people . I find those comments to be offensive.

I understand kuna is not pleased with the service he received from Pavel. kuna has made that point clear over and over.

 I see many others were very happy with his service. I never met, employed  or communicated with any guide in Ukraine. But over the course of several years I've read many glowing reports about Stirlitz and Pavel. As we all know good news travels slowly but bad news travels at th speed of light.

I only hope to bring a little balance to the discussion and show how I think these professionals should be treated. Some respect is  in order.

DonAz

[Kuna]

DonAZ,

Read mir's post below... he has read the thread and understands the issue.

I paid the frigging requested fee and I WASN'T given the promised service.

I couldn't give a %$#@ if a guide adds a margin to the services he provides but he should be honest and tell the client he is adding a fee. If the client thinks that a guides fee is too high them he can boot him.  

I also don't care if a guide charges an upfront fee (like I was charged) to provide honest services but if he does that he better be honest!

I DO care if a guide promises that he is looking after me AND charges a fee to do that, and then I discover I am getting prices worse than the average tourist on the street would be getting.  I trusted someone in a commercial arrangement and feel lucky I caught onto the REAL situation early on.  If I didn't and I continued to accept the "best advice and help" I would have been down MUCH more money.

I discovered that guides may not be giving clients the best advice available.  If you want to accpt that then cool... I just want other newbies to know that you don't have to accept it and you don't even HAVE to use a guide.

Everyone now can make up their own minds!

Kuna

DonAz

I think the whole argument on this thread is not on what a guide is allowed to charge but that he/she should be open and upfront about what he/she charges and should not use stealth to make extra money from the client.

[BC]

Is this the second or third lap in this thread?.. hope some new scenery comes along quickly..

[Makkin]

BC,

  Maybe a live broadcast would help? (skyperr)

Makkin

[DonAz]

Blah Blah Blah... *YAWN*

Sorry DonAZ...  I haven't interacted with you in the past (I don't think) and I haven't read many of your posts but I read the opening two lines of your post and saw the same misconception that I thought we'd already resolved in here.

The point is I DID pay the requested SERVICE FEE before arriving which was explained as the fee that would get me BEST PRICES.  That is a fairly clear promise and transaction.

I DID find out that the prices I was getting were not BEST PRICE.  It wasn't even the Tourist Price, it was ABOVE the Tourist Price.

I can't call Pavel dishonest because I think he's a nice guy and I don't want to tarnish his name with a personal attack, but I WILL say that he didn't give me the best advice at times and I caught him being dishonest at times.  There was an secretive profit motive attached to our transactions that breached trust because it was contrary to our engagement as promised by him.  "Trust me, Pay me a fee and I will protect you while you're in Ukraine".. I trusted, I paid the requested amount and I wasn't protected from people who would rip me off.

If I pay someone a SERVICE FEE to get me BEST PRICES I expect best prices and the BEST advice.  If the guide can't make a profit on the engagement he should (in my opinion) be honest and charge a larger upfront fee, get the client the best price and tell the client he will add 25% (or so) to all services he arranges as his fee... or even charge a daily fee for the term of the trip to "look after you"....  but if you're paying to be "looked after" then you damn well should be looked after.

What I think is amazing is when I read posts when people say "Oh, there is only a small price difference and you should get over it".

If someone is giving a scammer small amounts of money for Internet charges etc, should he be peeved when he finds out he was mislead?  In my opinion a guide that skims small amounts of money is also breaching the trust relationship IF he breaches the trust that was promised.

DonAZ,  the most foolish thing you said is to pay them SO MUCH that they can forget all other interests they have!  Are you one of those Americans that go to FSU and throw your money around to look good?  Do you suggest others go there and try to prove the power of the $? How much are you talking about?  Throw them $100 for nothing?  $500?  $1000?  More?  

Their interest is money and they won't ignore that interest.  I'm confident if you engage a guide and you agree on a price and a service and then you throw him $1000 EXTRA you still won't get best price... in fact you'd probably get even worse prices because his short term concept of business would make him see you as a pot of gold and he would keep digging in.

This thread has now twisted into so many different directions and the only message I have for newbies is IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE A GUIDE BE VERY VERY CAREFUL AND DO NOT THROW MONEY AROUND IN FSU!  You can't buy trust and honesty when dealing with strangers in FSU and a guide is a stranger no matter what he tells you.

The discrepancies may only be a small amount but if you have total trust in anyone and you don't treat them as harshly as you would treat a taxi driver you might find out later the amounts are much more significant.

Kuna

kuna,
Where did you get the idea that I was referring to your situation? Let me assure you I was not!

Your right we do not know each other from Adam. I do not know these guides from Adam either. I do not care for the way they are being treated on this thread however.

I think if you read my post realizing I am not talking about you at all it may be more enlightening to you. My posts are about  HOW  I feel about guides not including your experience.

I happen to think these guys have helped many guys in the past and that should not be overlooked.

I see you have your panties in a knot. Sorry about that, but there isn't anything I can do to help you or resolve your issues. It is what it is. Do not expect me to accept or agree with everything you posted on this thread. It ain't gonna happen. How many times do you need to say the same thing over and over again. We get it you feel ripped off. I hope you can resolve your issues with Pavel without tearing the guy apart.

You need to realize that up until this post I did not mention you at all or your problem with Pavel. So chill a bit dude. My posts are not about you at all but the subject of the Value  guides can bring to the table to counter the debate that guides are never needed. I don't agree with you there. It's as simple as that. So relax some and lets be nice OK.

DonAz

[EdiT] I see BC posted as I was writing my post. I had the same thought. We are back to the beginning again with the original posts being rehashed.

[GregfromGa]

Hey Kuna, exactly how many times are you planning on beating this dead horse. For God sakes man let it go. So your trip cost you a few extra bucks. Had you gotten your arse in a tight Pavel wouldve been your only out. The next time you go if and when you ever do then just dont use the guy. I would hope that if you are planning on marrying a Ukrainian girl then surely you can rent your own flat and catch your own taxi. If you cant do that then stay in New Zealand or wherever the hell it is you're from,but in the meantime stop trashing Pavel on a message board because things didnt workout with the girl.

[Kuna]

DonAZ,

You're damn right I have my knickers in a knot when someone with no experience with guides and no knowledge of what happened comes into a thread and ignores the facts... or even worse distorts reality.

If you want to start a thread to do some advertising for guides then go ahead, but don't let your bleeding heart sense of justice confuse newbies into not negotiate everything, checking everything and trusting nothing when engaging a guide.

Even Stirlitz suggested I should have been checking all the prices Pavel gave me and refuse to use him when he wasn't meeting the promises made!

RWD is a place for the men and women who are seeking an International Marriage to exchange experiences and the things they have learned... It's not a place to give blind recommendations for those that earn money from our interests.

You have no experience with guides yet you still want to recommend them because of things you've read.  Maybe you should leave the advice on this topic to those who have experience. 

Plenty of positive things have been said about Pavel and I have no problem with that. If you read his post and my original post you'll see that we're both pretty balanced about what happened. He learned some things... I learned some things.  What's wrong with letting newbies learn some things?

If the information is in here newbies can decide for themselves.



Greg...
I'll continue to give my perspective every single time someone posts a message that might confuse newbies.

You're a member of the Pavel Cheer Squad but the best way for you to let this thread die is to put down your pom poms and go back to the kitchen!


Kuna, with hopefully his last post on this subject!

[jinx13]

He learned some things... I learned some things.  What's wrong with letting newbies learn some things?

If the information is in here newbies can decide for themselve

 That about says it all Kuna...I never saw wrong vs right in this thread, mostly just miscommunication between you and Pavel, and yeah some issues that you had a right to question...if this thread served a purpose it was to let newbies know to ask more questions before hiring a guide, and be clear about the pricing.

 One thing I learned was that the $100 a day I payed my first time over was a great deal, covered my apartment, breakfast, laundry, all day driver and interpreter which were also my guides    There were NO additional charges...

[Jack]

DonZ I was trying to prove a point.
This is why I asked you what I thought was a very simple question.  I guess it was not such a simple question so let me respond to your points and maybe if I can while responding to your points I might ask you a few questions again.

......."I don't buy your theory of equality"........

DonZ, I never made, or posted, to my knowledge, any theory of equality.

I had asked you a simple hypothetical question,  If ALL things were equal, the quality of service, the smile, the people, if ALL things were equal, and I put in caps ALL to emphases all things being equal.

DonZ, how is my asking you  "if all things are equal"  me trying to sell you a theory of equality?

It's not a real situation DonZ, I am not talking about any two particular people, this is an imaginary situation I was asking you about. Based on your post from 10:41am this morning I was wanting to ask you a hypothetical question, that was all.

I can hardly see how asking you a question based on all things being equal that I am trying to sell you a theory of equality but I would be interested in hearing how you come to this conclusion.

........."There is usually a valid reason for higher fees".......

Agreed.

........"Usually the better ones have higher fees".......

Yes, their is a lot of truth to that.

......."Your situation is purely hypothetical because you cannot know for sure which interpreter is really best".......

WHAT!  DonZ, in my hypothetical situation I presented to you ALL factors were the same. The two were of the same quality, both had outstand references, both did excellent work.  Their was not one better than the other in the hypothetical question I asked you.

........."The easy answer is * the one I trust more and I feel has a better grasp of what I require.".........

............."ten bucks do not make a big difference. Ability and service is and does"........

Very good.  So if the one you trusted more and felt had a better grasp for what you wanted was $10 an hour, you would choose that interpreter, correct?   Just as if the one you trusted more and had a better grasp of what you wanted was $20 an hour you would choose them.

But let me ask you this hypothetical question DonZ, if you trusted both interpreters the same, and both gave you the same comfort level as to having a grasp of what you wanted, if the service received and ability expressed were the same, identical, and one was $10 an hour and one was $20 an hour, which would you choose?

..........."I consider guides to be professionals. I never chose any professional on the basis of cost. If you need a Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant, engineer etc.. you DO NOT  chose on the basis of cost you chose the best you can find"........

Absolutely DonZ, agree 100%.  Let me ask you this.  If you were looking at two Lawyer's and after meeting both of them, again this is probably a hypothetical situation but possible, after meeting with both Lawyers you felt good about both of them, you could not go wrong with choosing either one of them and felt both would win your case, and one was going to charge you $10,000 and the other was going to charge you $20,000, which lawyer would you choose?

Code: [Select]

........."You are an adventure, maybe a mission, why waste time, why pick less then the best regardless of a minimum amount of money"........

Absolutely again DonZ, pick the best you can get regardless of a minimum amount of money.  However with reference to the two Lawyers above, with all things being the same, you felt comfortable with both and that both would get you a successful outcome, would you pay the extra $10,000 if all things were equal?

........."A guide is the least of  the cost and may be the most important assert for a first time traveler to the FSU".......

DonZ let me respectfully disagree here for a second. I have seen times where the guide was not the least of the cost. Sometimes guys will get a guide to travel with them from city to city, there entire trip. Sometimes an individual would keep a guide 12-14 hours a day by his side in the same city for a week or two. And often times I have seen where a guide was not one of the least of cost, but one of major cost of that individuals trip.

As well I have heard (not known) of some guides who were able to add an extra $1000-$1500 to his overall cost to a client in one city for two weeks.  So in most cases the guide can be the least of the cost but some bad guides could get their services on up their kind of quickly.  And in my opinion if I run across a guide like this I sure the heck wouldn't want you or anyone I know, or any client, to get a guide such as this.

......."I do not think it is fair for you to criticize your competition in the way you do"......

Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion.

.........."You cheapen and disregard the qualities of the others who compete with you"........

I often expose scam DonZ.  I expose agencies who cheat clients, lie to clients. As well I expose scammers.   And DonZ, guess what, I also personally use the services of many people who compete against me.   If I were to use the services of A Russian Romance and not be happy with the services I got why should I not be able to report such?  You can do it.  So in your opinion because I am in the business I cannot report getting scammed by an agency as you did?    Because I am in the business I cannot expose my clients getting scammed by Confidential Connections or Absolute Agency?

I am not a guide so I have no guides who I compete with, but I know a lot of really good guides, probably some 20-25 just in Ukraine. All wonderful guides. And most of these are about $10 an hour.  If I see someone on the RWD recommend a guide, say in Lugansk, for $20 an hour and I speak up and say I know of a good guide as well in Lugansk and they charge $10 an hour, that to me is NOT cheapening or disregarding the qualities of others, it is advising others I know of a VERY good guide at a very good price, so I will have to respectfully disagree with you with regards to that statement you made.

........."I think some of you guys think guides are no more then peasants to do your bidding and just throw a few crumbs their way".......

I for one certainly do not feel that way. Many of these guides are hardworking, intelligent individuals. On the other hand when I do recommend a certain guide I am putting my reputation on the line and if I get too many complaints with regards to a certain guide then I feel I have no other choice but not to use or recommend that guide again.  Probably pretty similar to what you would do in your business DonZ.  If you had some contractor that you used and liked and then highly recommended to your friends and you had three or four friends say "DonZ, I'm glad you had a good experience with that person, but you know, they really missed up laying my tile in the bathroom and the trim in the living room is different colors and did you know he charged me $10,000 more than his original quote."    Well Donz, I think if you had three or four good buddies tell you this about a contractor you had recommended I think you would stop recommending this contractor. I know I would.

[Stirlitz]

Blah Blah Blah... *YAWN*

It is a good idea to add break lines into your message (verbose at that already) if you want to make the reader skip it altogether. I was only able to read half then I just scrolled down. I wonder if anybody here actually made it all the way down?

[BC]

How about a RWD course on how to use the quote feature...

It's that little 'thingie' that looks like this:

[Mir]

If you were looking at two Lawyer's and after meeting both of them, again this is probably a hypothetical situation but possible, after meeting with both Lawyers you felt good about both of them,

Comeone Jack now you are asking too much,even hypothetically

[DonAz]

DonAZ,

You're damn right I have my knickers in a knot when someone with no experience with guides.

You presume things that do not have any bearing on reality. I have used guides all over the world in my 30+ years of international travel.
I’ll get into that further down in my post

 

no knowledge of what happened comes into a thread and ignores the facts... or even worse distorts reality
 

Aside from you and Pavel,  who  has any knowledge of the facts? Can you tell me which posters on this thread aside from you and Pavel has  any knowledge of the facts?

I see we have conflicting stories. You say one thing and Pavel says another. Maybe I am ignoring something but I do not see any facts as you so put it. I only see the opposing views  of the circumstances about your experience with  Pavel. 

Tell us why we should only accept your version of the events and disregard Pavel? 

Please quote anything I posted that distorted any facts.

If you want to start a thread to do some advertising for guides then go ahead, but don't let your bleeding heart sense of justice confuse newbies into not negotiate everything, checking everything and trusting nothing when engaging a guide.

Please back that statement up and show us where I said anything that validates your comments I underlined

How does my opinion that guides can be helpful equate to advertising? I shared my views and nothing else.
 
Please show me where I said anything that would confuse anyone.

Even Stirlitz suggested I should have been checking all the prices Pavel gave me and refuse to use him when he wasn't meeting the promises made!

That’s  common sense dude. I mean after all, any adult with any sense knows that. Not enlightening stuff.

RWD is a place for the men and women who are seeking an International Marriage to exchange experiences and the things they have learned... It's not a place to give blind recommendations for those that earn money from our interests.

Dude now you want to play the part of the know it all expert….with only one trip under your belt.
Kuna I forgot more about all of this then you presently know. I spend a couple of months every year in Russia. My wife and I own property there and are building a house in Russia. I know the lay of the land and I know how things work in the FSU and I know how to do business there .  I doubt there are many guys that have the experience I do with the exception of jb, Leslie, Dan, Jack, and s few others that I can’t remember right now.
So when you mention experience, I agree with you but you are one of the guys that need to learn from our experience.

I met my wife on the first day of my first trip to Russia. So the way I went about this whole adventure  worked wonderfully   for me  and I share my knowledge, my experience, and my views of what I think will be helpful to guy in finding the right  lady to share their lives with. 

You have no experience with guides yet you still want to recommend them because of things you've read.  Maybe you should leave the advice on this topic to those who have experience.

Now you’re repeating yourself. Look at your opening paragraph and my response. You will see that your statement holds no water.

Plenty of positive things have been said about Pavel and I have no problem with that. If you read his post and my original post you'll see that we're both pretty balanced about what happened. He learned some things... I learned some things.  What's wrong with letting newbies learn some things?

Please quote me where I said that newbies should not ’t learn anything new. Where did you get that idea?. Just because I see things different then you?

What if some of us believe Pavel ( I’m not say I do) over you does that make us your enemy? It sure seems like it from your hyper and caustic posts.

If the information is in here newbies can decide for themselves.

I agree with you completely.

I believe  those of us who have been blessed with success in this pursuit should share our knowledge in the hope of helping others fulfill their desire to share their lives with a wonderful woman from the FSU.

I feel blessed to have found the most wonderful women I’ve ever known. To me it is a miracle to have found the woman of my dreams in a far off place on the other side of the world.

So Kuna my only debate with you is about the value of guides and how they can be of great assistance to a first time traveler to the FSU.

Your experience on your first trip was not good, we all get that and it is unfortunate. Hopefully your next trip will be more successful.

Best of luck to you in your quest



DonAz