Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!

[jinx13]

William,

Oh don't worry, quite calm and collected here.  I do not have a beef with Jack per se, but am against commercial enterprises that do not contribute true substance to the board.  I am quite sure Jack has much experience he could share, even beyond my own in many areas.  Unfortunately, in my opin he has not found a sound way to share his expertise here, especially when business competitors are involved.

 Exactly! It's hard to tell who makes money with who, what alliances are because of business relations, etc.  I am far more trusting of the opinions of members who get no monetary gain from posting on RWD. 

 People "in the business" have much experience, and have a lot to offer, and many do...Rverwnd comes to mind. It's nice when they contribute with helpful advice that has nothing to do with you using their services, I would like to see more of that, not just lurking and waiting for a guy saying he's planning a trip to Kiev and then jumping on the topic and offering tours, socials, interpreters, apartments, transportation, etc. 

 Be a part of the community here, don't just USE it for your own personal gain.

[Admin]

Be a part of the community here, don't just USE it for your own personal gain.

I certainly agree.

- Dan

[Stirlitz]

But let me say once again…

Why don’t we get back to the original message and leave quarrels behind? In my first message in this thread I urged anyone who disagreed with me to substantiate it. I have not gotten anything about that yet — only personal attacks on me and low tactics like editing out offensive comments.

as the original subject was ‘Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!’

…why don’t we just stick to it leaving personal attacks out?

Some people have to be asked repeatedly. Please stay on topic!

PLEASE!!!

[BC]

But let me say once again…
…why don’t we just stick to it leaving personal attacks out?

Some people have to be asked repeatedly. Please stay on topic!



PLEASE!!!

Stirlitz,

Yess... even a true sadist will give up at one point or other, even if the masochist continues to beg for more..

Question..

It might be of benefit to know what an agreement between client and translator/guide looks like.  What kind of terms and conditions are discussed in such agreements? 

[Son of Clyde]

Dan may go ballistic again.

Stirlitz, you are becoming Americanized. That small comment was spoken like a true American. You are picking up much of our slang it seems.

[Admin]

Kuna,

If you have anything more to add to your topic, send me a PM and I will re-open it.

If Pavel joins RWD and wishes to reply, someone (anyone) can send me a PM to alert me, and I will re-open the topic.

Otherwise - it is now locked.

- Dan

[Mod1]

Update 2/25: Pavel sent a message to reopen the topic. Please refrain from starting again with the fighting. Give the man a chance to have his say.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Note: I cleaned out "Most" of the garbage from this topic. There are a few lingering bits as they are mixed in with the real content of the posts. If Pavel or Kuna, like Dan said, have more relevant information to add they can let us know and we will reopen the topic.

If this topic is reopened NONE of the garbage that polluted this topic will be tolerated.

Thank you.

[Pavel]

 Dear Mr. Kurt (Kuna). Hi, the rest who know me, and those who might
have just joined this forum.    It's so nice seeing everyone's
personal point of view about me. Thank you for comprehensive
information!    But I am sort of shocked about some posts that have
been posted on this forum and were deleted by Administrator
afterward. That is why it took awhile until I made a decision to post
and share this information.

First of all, I would like to publicly apologise if I somehow hurt or
caused some discomfort to Mr.Kuna or other individuals who have ever
used my services. That's not what I wanted to do, and that's why I
publicly apologise.

Now would be good to introduce myself to the rest who don't know me
and wonder why people talk about me at this forum. I'm a
freelanced interpreter and guide in Ukraine who assists foreigners,
their friends and relatives to have safe and comfortable journey
within UA. Some of my customers ask me to help with other things, but
I never perform any illegal work, and don't ever have goals to hurt
any single one who are travelling to UA from another country. And
I'd never do that in the future.     I'd say that I have never
considered any of my customers stupid, or something. I don't care
about men's race, nationality, or allegiance. I care about what
persons they are, and what their attitude to me and to other people
is. This is the biggest thing, you know why? Cause, this way you'll
have a good friendship with them.

Many of you have been using my services for a long time, some of you
have been in my apartment, having food, drinking beer, even some of
the travellers cooked meal and we shared it. For those who had
troubles like credit cards, and didn't have any option to leave home
until some relatives/friends wire some $, I helped.  Others needed a
place to stay before departure back home or to some other town in UA,
those guys had some rest on my coach, sleeping or watching US movies.
I still keep some of my customers clothes, money. And if this guys
ever come back to Kiev they will definitely get them back, or their
funds will be used in behalf of them.

My home was always ready for that and such visitors were welcomed,
despite I don't have much room for that. My wife Natasha was happy
to have such guests, showing hospitality as well as me. Some of you
tasted her borsch... And some other national dishes. Nobody was
considered as a stupid or treated badly, because of the country he
lives, his nationality, or religion backgrounds. And that's
true as it was. The same way I consider Mr. Kuna, you are a good person.

Here is some information about the quotes you disagree about:   On
Jan. 26 I charge you $45-225 UAH, this is reservation fee $20 and fee
$25 for my services/my time I spent taking from KBP to the flat and
helping you a bit afterwards -remember we went down to Kreschatik and
to show you where the internet club is.   On Jan. 27 we set up the
time to meet at 10.30 a.m. and went to a cell phone store, you wanted
to get a sim-card, in case the 2 ones I gave you to use for free
didn't work out for your cell you brought from Australia , and you
decided to try a new one or buy a cell phone. We got there at 10.45
a.m. and it was closed, as it was Sat. We waited for awhile you had
your cigarette, and called to the girl to make sure she is on her way
for Dnepropetrovsk, and you told me she'd be at the train station at
noon 12.00. Then we went to get an internet card for you to hook up
internet in your flat, after this ATM, and back to the store. 

When the store opened, we went in and you tried a new sim-card that
didn't work again, and you decided to use your phone with Australian
sim-card in case my company pays for the phone calls, and said that's
fine.    But it was not good for me, I'll tell later why. After this
we went to McDonalds, we had some food there. BTW thanks for the
meal, it was good to have some.

In McDonald's, we agreed to get a car to go to the train station. The
driver picked us up about 11.40 a.m. and we got there at 11.55 a.m.
On the timetable board that I helped you to find inside of the
TStation, because there was no train your girl was riding to Kiev
arriving at 12.00, but there was the train arriving to Kiev at 12.30
p.m., not at noon as you said before. So we spend extra 35 min to
meet your girl. After meeting her at the platform where I helped you
get to, we met your girl, I took her luggage and we board the car at
12.40 p.m. When we got to you apartment, it was about 1 p.m . Now I
think that's clear why I charge you 220UAH. I spent over 2hrs with
you, plus the rest for the driver time he spent waiting us at the
train station, and for the transfer to and form the train station.

On Feb. 1st we agreed to meet and go to the bus station to get the
ticket to Cherkasy, as it was the cheapest way for you to get there.
When I came you said you'd like to talk to you about this trip and
you made a decision to get there by car rather than bus. I said that
it'd be $140-700UAH, you said deal! And I asked you to get the funds
before you take a ride there. I don't mind if customers give these
funds to the driver, but I prefer take them before to make sure you
really need such kind of services and to give the funds to the person
who will be responsible for such ride, this way let him get his car
ready for this trip. And on Feb. 2nd, you had your ride. But after
awhile I saw your post where you mentioned that you also had one more
guide who you quoted you $200 and then $150. Well, I was glad you
could get the cheapest price comparatively to those you were given by
other guide. I wonder, was that person from abroad, or he/she is from
UA? Seeing that other guides have a bit higher rates I’d say that not
only me has such prices. Would be interesting to find out if this
person from UA or abroad.

On Feb. 9th, you were leaving for Dnepropetrovsk, and you wanted me
let your luggage stay in the flat and you will keep the key until
Sat. Feb. 10th, without paying for the flat. But this way it doesn't
work here. Think about if you want to have your stuff in the Hotel in
UA or some other country...do they let to use the room without paying
for this? So, that's why I came earlier to talk about to find the
best way to store you luggage for the time you be away from Kiev .
You didn't give me any funds (deposit) for the apartment to have some
guarantee that you'll definitely come back and your plans wouldn't be
changed.

Remember I told that using Australian phone operator wasn't good for
me? So, I was trying to get hold of you during the time you were out
of Kiev , and only could hear from you 10 min before noon on Feb.
10th. By that time the landlord let another men rent this flat,
sorry, but she couldn't wait without having any deposit left by you.
I tried to get you another flat, but couldn't come personally,
because I caught a cold and had a high temperature. I am not lying,
cause; some other guys whom I helped here couldn't be served by me
personally because of my sickness, and I had to arrange someone to
meet them. I don't know, but they will probably post about that here,
if they decide so.

Now a bit about Pavel and why his rates are different than the
streets are. And can a guide like Pavel save you money, or he saves
much more than that?    For those who know what kind of business I do
here-no need to tell much... But I would like to tell the rest what
kind of work Pavel does, and think how much should I charge for my
services?   Some examples...

"Pavel, my girl and her kid are coming to USA on these days, they are
coming to Kiev , tomorrow. They are taking a dog with them, and the
dog needs to be injected and some papers should be given to them to
pass through UA custom. Please, they don't have much time. Help them
ASAP, they don’t have much time."   And what Pavel does, he is ready
to help this man, and the man's future family. Pavel meets them,
assists them to find a clinic, he talks to the Vet, help them get
this injection & Pavel even ready to hold this dog to help a Vet
Doctor to make an injection, even if this dog can bite Pavel, he
dosen't mind doing this, because he is taking care of his
customers.   -   Even if it's too late in the evening, or it's
early in the morning.

"Pavel, please, I got lost, I don't know where I am, nobody speaks
English. I barely found a person who speaks a bit English, paid her/
him $5 to use a cell phone. Please, take me away from this, I cannot
read any building signs to say where I am, I'm scared." Luckily the
person whose phone he uses can explain, and after getting some
coordinates, Pavel rushes to this man to save him because he is in
trouble.

"Pavel, my luggage has lost, please, I need your help. I gave your
information to KBP stuff, or customs officer, please, call them
tomorrow and collect this back. I cannot do it by myself, cause, I’m
leaving tonight to Lugansk, Donetsk & and come back to Kiev in a
week. I have my laptop there, please, take care of that." And what
Pavel does, he calls and he goes to KBP, he talks to the customs
officer. When this man arrives back to Kiev, Pavel meets him with
his luggage. All is fine with his luggage, and this man is happy to
get it back. Sometimes, I think that I'm risking doing this job. You
know why? Cause, I don't know this person well, he is using my
service for the first time. Who knows what he has in his luggage, and
what he originally is, what his intentions are?  If some kind of
smuggling will be found in this man's suite case, how Pavel would
proof that he’s not in conspiracy with this man? Fortunately, it
never has happened before, and I don’t want this to happen.

"Pavel, I got food poisoning. I need some medicine, or please, take
me to the doctor."  And Pavel goes to help this person.

"Pavel we need a car ride to Vinitsa, Kherson , Kharkov , Cherkasy...
Please, arrange a car."  I do this.

I had some trip accompanying my clients, sometime I was behind a
wheel, and knew what it is driving back and forward the same day hundreds km.
But sometimes getting to some spots I was pointed me, and driver has to wait
for my clients, while they are staying in the Agency office or a girl's room.
It take time, sometime up to 1 hr. and Pavel or his driver should stay waiting.
After putting the luggage into a car one man can say, I just want to come back
the flat and say her Good Bye, I’ll be right back. It’s funny but it takes 30 min,
or even more till this man come back. It’s funny, but I can assume that he's telling
her good bye in writing. Or it could be worse, someone can say, girl or a man,
I need a transfer to Vinitsa, but, 5 km before Vinitsa, me or a driver get new
portion of information. That we need to get not exactly to Vinitsa city,
but 25-50km away from there& or more, in a small village.
And it’s hard for me or a driver to prove that this is not the same destination
we had to driving to. And sometimes Pavel, should pay for all of this.
Or sometimes Pavel should stay hrs in KBP, cause, his clients plane is delay, or he
lost his luggage and staying in a long line to fill the form.

It doesn't matter what day it is, Weekend, Christmas time, NY Eve,
what Pavel does, what his schedule is, where he is.... This clients
need help right now, and they expect him to help. Kurt, even helping
you I didn't know how to schedule my day, what arrange,  whom to
call. Cause, I couldn't get hold on you, and you didn't contact me to
confirm, didn't you have a chance to use your girl's phone, or send
me a message..? And you expected me to get you the best options with
having any confirmation about it.

Well gentlemen, can you imagine..., Pavel, I need this or I need
that, Pavel I was stopped by police, or my motorcycle was taken to
the police department after a car accident, and I need to take this
back, please, hire a lawyer... Pavel I need to call my girlfriend, or
I need you to help my girl's sister to find a Job, or help my girls
parents...    I am not saying that I'm right and someone was wrong,
and I'm not a judge or jury. But reading all of that, you can come
to your own conclusion, if my rates are too high or not. Can Pavel
save the man money, or he does he do much more than that..?

I understand that my rates for my services can be unacceptable for
some individuals, this way, the men whom I have deal with do it on
their own, and it works for them. Other prefer having business with
me, and among them such man like:   Michelangelo, 2tallBill, Son of
Clyde, Voyager, GregfromGeorgia, Thor & and many others. Some of them
never attend such forums. Yes, I can call these men my
friends, because, my work helps me to make some friends. We stay in
touch with them, changing emails, cards & some of them are happy to
see me here and have some good time together. I can proudly say that
this men paid me well every time I have business with them. Moreover,
they paid me much more when I even expected, or asked.

Street prices are much less than mine, that's true. Kuna, you said
you flagged down a cab for 120-130UAH to KBP, that's even a bit more
when you could get if you walked down to the hill or take some subway
stops away from the canter, you even can get a deal 50UAH, or less.
Some guys do this, or take a public transportation. But it takes your
time, efforts, sometimes you have heavy luggage? And you never know
if can trust the man in the car you have just stopped, and if it will
be safe or not.

I have read your posts carefully, and I accept all your complaints,
recommendations, and I have learned some lessons. From this day on,
every time I have a new client, I will have a list of the rates
printed out and every new day he needs my help, or wants me to make a
phone call, or do other tasks, we will have agreed about the costs,
and getting some deposits, if I need one.

I want to wish Kuna to continue to be well, and always have the best
rates travelling around the world. Also want to assure you that, I
don't have any arguments with you and respect you as a person and as
one of my clients.

Sincerely,
Pavel.

[Stirlitz]

Some people honestly believe that customer is king. That is right and I support this attitude 100%. However, they sometimes miss an important point, what makes you customer, what makes you king: when you agree to pay for services. So, if you do not like to pay or think that rates are too high, you risk being deposed and sent to exile, figuratively (that is being left to your own devices). But if you want to be treated king, just pay like king.

However, some customers want to eat a cake and have it too: to receive good services and care but not pay for it. This is impossible, and it does not help to call it a rip-off.

[Son of Clyde]

Pavel, welcome to the board.

The posts that were removed were probably arguments between several individuals and may have had nothing to do with the subject.
Some people here are strong willed but all seem to be decent people.

I am hoping your post will clear up some things.

Two thoughts from me:

I can confirm that Pavel is on the job 24/7 and has helped me in more ways that one can imagine. The personal touches may not be listed with his services but Pavel is always there to help.

And lets not forget Pavel is human too and has a life and a family that sometimes need him. He is not a miracle worker but he tries to make his clients as happy as humanly possible.

[KenC]

Some people honestly believe that customer is king. That is right and I support this attitude 100%. However, they sometimes miss an important point, what makes you customer, what makes you king: when you agree to pay for services. So, if you do not like to pay or think that rates are too high, you risk being deposed and sent to exile, figuratively (that is being left to your own devices). But if you want to be treated king, just pay like king
However, some customers want to eat a cake and have it too: to receive good services and care but not pay for it. This is impossible, and it does not help to call it a rip-off..

Igor,
I think you have things a little back assward here.  It is impossible to give good services without the customer over paying?  (I know you didn't write "over paying" but the connotation of your whole post indicates so) You're the service guy, and the king like service should come first at the agreed upon price and anything paid above and beyond the stated prices is at the discretion of the customer.  I am sure that you and Pavel run into the cheap customers all the time that squeeze you for every nickle and dime, but you have to accept that people will always question a change in price.  (Not a slam to Kuna here at all)  All price increases should be explained.  I posted once up thread and mostly defended Pavel, but shaking a man out of bed early, not allowing him to go back and shave in order to savor a meal at Micky D's is not close to treating him like a king.  From Kuna's story here, Pavel seems to need to remember that the client's wishes and time schedule are more important than his.  Also Pavel's communication seemed to be lacking at times.  As I said, any increase in charges should be explained completely or the customer will always think they are being ripped off.
KenC

[Stirlitz]

I did not mean overpaying, my reference to king was sort of in response to what some people imply here, and I just wanted to stress that there is always the other side of the stick.

Pavel’s interaction with Kuna is another question, each party has their interpretation of what happened and it is not quite clear where the truth is. I am not sure about the McDonalds story but calling Pavel ten minutes before arriving in Kiev (and being out of touch before) and giving him a hard time for something which is actually Kuna’s fault is not close to being a king either (a king would have just paid for the apartment or at least called a bit earlier). As for the increase in price, if you refer to the $80/140 claim, I do not believe there was any increase as I proved above. But with other things, Pavel did not communicate well indeed, and as Kuna for some reason assumed that Pavel was going to work basically for free, no wonder there were misunderstandings. This is also Pavel’s fault and I do not defend him there. Never expect a client to think that you do not work for free, however natural it would seem to you and anyone. Always make it clear as for your fees and conditions. I also posted my similar bad experience above, so I know what it is.

[Pavel]

Hi KenC.

 Thanks for additional reccomendations. As I said I have learned some lessons, it helps me to re-consider some of the spheres of my work.

Sincerely,

 Pavel.

[I/O]

Entertainment abounds:  I can kinda see a few different aspects to all of this.  One that should be understood, and Kuna, if you are 100% honest with yourself, I think you'll agree to an extent, as Aussies, we are the worst tippers in the world and demand the max for the price.  Why?  The salary structures here are totally different to anywhere else by and large.  For the USA guys, we rarely tipp a waitress in a cafe unless she has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the call, why? Because she has a protected base salary of $15-25 / hour before she starts.  We pay for it in the price of the meals. 

The resulting attitude here is to protest severely about up charges regardless.  Once quoted a price (In Aus) we watch it pretty closely and tend not to look at the other sides of things, because we are used to paying pretty high for most things.  (Note to Pavel, explain all possible costs and add on's to any Aussie clients, because we are used to a slightly different system) It is not a matter of being cheapskates, it is a matter of being used to high, all inclusive (Yes a few extras) prices being quoted early on if not before. 

In a situation where I require a "Service" I simply sit down with the provider and get it all noted from minute one, including costs for any variances.  Thats the simple way to get control of the situation.  From there, if the provider seems to be "Sneaking" an extra charge in, he will not get one dime more than his/her quoted price, however on the other hand, I am a pretty dammed heavy tipper if I am getting what I was told I would and good service with it.  In such a situation, if the guide had done all he promised over a period of days, and done it well, he could expect to get from me, a day or two's salary in a tipp. 

KenC, you are partly right in your comments about dragging the man out early.  I would have lit up like a vegas neon if I'd been in Kuna's boots, BUT, notice the comment about Pavel not being too keen on dialing an international number to contact Kuna.  With an Aus phone on roaming, effectively the guy can be standing 2 feet away, but you are dialing Aus to talk to him.  From eastern Europe, it is about $1.50 per minute.  I can't say I'd expect a guide to wear that either.  SMS's to Aus roaming phones whilst in Ukraine or Russia are not 100% reliable either.

The fundamental problem here was communications and it could have been vastly improved if Kuna AND Pavel had sorted that phone thing out properly from the get go.  I tend to think that was the basis for much of the breakdown.  When travelling, the phone is KING.  I think everyone can learn something from this, including both Pavel and Kuna.  If I could SHOUT one thing very loudly to all, that would be GET THE PHONE THING SORTED FROM THE GET GO.  I went through all this ages back and had to learn the hard way. ($1500.00 in 9 days phone bill hard way)

FWIW

I/O

[Son of Clyde]

You people are waaaay too dependent on mobile phones.
I never used one in Ukraine and I got my first mobile phone in 2003.
Back in the olden days we used rotary phones but the cords were too long to carry around.
Those were the days I walked 10 miles to school (in the snow) with Ward Cleaver.

[Michelangelo]

I can confirm that Pavel is on the job 24/7 and has helped me in more ways that one can imagine. The personal touches may not be listed with his services but Pavel is always there to help.

And lets not forget Pavel is human too and has a life and a family that sometimes need him. He is not a miracle worker but he tries to make his clients as happy as humanly possible.

Yes, SOC, that's the Pavel I know, too.  A really decent human being who goes for beyond the call of duty in helping his clients; you likely read upstream how much he helped me last summer when my mother had a heart attack and I had to rush home.

The vast majority of posters here who actually know Pavel or who have experience with him have praised him on this board; including SOC, myself, Thor, GregfromGeorgia, Stirlitz, 2tallbill, Turboguy, Voyageur, and others, all veteran FSU travelers here at RWD.

That speaks volumes.

That does not make up for Kuna's negative impression; he knows Pavel in real life and has a different "take" or impression.

It's a great big world filled with all kinds of people, and as individuals, we all look through our own lenses.

My lenses showed Pavel to be a very precise and helpful, and caring human being.

[I/O]

SOC:  We ain't in '03 or before, we are in '07. 

I/O

[Son of Clyde]

I/O I think we need to start a new thread "Are cell phones really necessary?" I don't want to clutter this thread.

[Voyageur]

I was glad to see Pavel’s response to the items raised in this thread. When I read his response, it brought to mind another incident that shows what kind of guy he is.

The last time Pavel helped me, was when my Lufthansa flight from Kiev through Frankfurt was unexpectedly cancelled.

When he took me to the airport, he spoke to me about how excited he was to take formal English classes at the local University in Kiev. If I remember correctly, he had just started these classes, and although he spoke excellent English, he wanted a more formal training, even though it was expensive.

So, as luck would have it, his first class was on the day I was leaving Kiev.  I shook hands with him and said goodbye.

I did not know that I would be calling him in three hours to come a pick me up at the same airport he had left me off at. I borrowed some kind Ukrainian babushka’s cell phone and dialed Pavel’s cell number.  He answered immediately, even though the incoming number was a strange one for him and he was in class.

I told him the situation and he told me that he would be there as soon as he could.

About an hour later, he was there. He had left class immediately and found a driver to meet me at the airport. He had also found me a flat to rent for the night (near the famous McDonalds in the Kreshatic (spelling??)) for a very reasonable price. Especially for such short notice.

He met me the next day and we repeated the drill to the airport, but this time the Lufthansa flight actually left as advertised.

He had every right to charge me through the nose for this type of service, but all the prices were the same or lower than I expected (i.e. for a one night stay in a flat in the middle of Kiev). I had no doubt that he considered me as both a client and a friend. Although my days of traveling to Ukraine as a single man are over, I hope to meet him again someday and would recommend him without reservation to anyone seeking a guide in Ukraine.

[Stirlitz]

Pavel is professional. He understands that the nature of his job requires to be available 24/7 and does not complain about it — although it is not easy at all, I can tell you.

I don’t have special rates for urgent jobs either and am always at your beck and call, even at night. That is what I call professional.

It is too bad that some people take it for granted and do not appreciate it. In fact, this attitude is not common here. The Soviet society was raised to believe that as a customer you must be humble and low, people who provided goods and services did not give a damn about their clients, and so many people still have this stupid attitude, from shop-assistants to officials. Westerners expect the customer-king attitude from everybody but it is still exceptional here. I don’t know why, the only answer is old habits die hard, but it’s a fact, and the reason Pavel is so popular is his attitude which is way different from many others.

[Makkin]

Hello,

  I/O I think you nailed the thoughts I had in regards to service and how it differs from one country to another.

  Once my luggage was lost in Perth,Australia and it was found and driven to my home of residence in Perth at a very reasonable time and at no cost to me etc... This was very good service. I doubt I would get that type service here.

  Once my father in law arrived in Los Angeles and we met him at the airport. He had rented a van to drive and it was not ready..lol They offered us another van that was equal to the original. He refused and went on about poor service for about a week..lol. He went to the extreme of letting us all be aware of comparison of OZ and USA.

  I really like the personal and pro service you get in Australia as it's nice to have all you expect and sometimes more. But.... I do not expect that type of service in Ukraine or Russia although it might happen. What I do expect is to be treated fairly and also treat fairly the person or persons I'm associated with on the trip.

  One should learn from these postings and also keep an open mind as I will do but sometimes expectations outweigh reality and they are forged again into some other metal of a statement that has to be addressed again and again as if the lay of the land is shaped or will be shaped in that abstract matter we may refer to as "Native".

Just my thoughts,

Makkin

[I/O]

Makkin: I was not pointing to variations in service so much, but rather the cost structures and protocols.  As for you FIL, if he was having a whinge session about USA service compared to here, frankly I'd have told him to shut up or go home. 

The luggage thing.  Yep, that is standard issue, if it doesn't arrive with you, they'll door to door hand deliver. 

SOC: There isn't an arguement about cell phones in this day and age.  If you don't have one that is compatible in this day and age in a new country you are toast.  No need to develop extended discussions about it. 

There seems to be a few things which fell off the rails between the client and the guide in this situation and it boils down to communication problems IMHO.

I/O

[BC]

There are many customers who appreciate the 'buddy' atmosphere.  Some do not and insist on a more strict business protocol.  As a service provider it's difficult to determine the correct role and yes, mistakes are made.

[Kuna]

Pavel,

Welcome to RWD...  I'm sure many of us would love you to stay around and lend your experience to newbies that are about to embark on an experience of a lifetime.

I won't go through your post line by line (even though Stirlitz will want me to) but there are some issues we could debate until we're blue in the face.

What your post shows is that you are a "nice guy", just as others in here have been saying.  I hope my post also indicates that I think you're a "nice guy" whilst sending a message to newbies about travel to FSU and the use of guides.

I was obviously unhappy with some aspects of our interaction but at the end of the day I hold no grudges.

If anything can be learned from this debate I think it should be:

1. Guides need to be more explicit (and we can debate more accurate) when engaging with clients.  Setting expectations is critical in any business transaction.  Perhaps I had unrealistic expectations... but that's history now!

2. Guides should confirm with clients what the client wants to do.  Our versions of the morning of the 27th are vastly different but I have no doubt you believe what you are saying.  I/O pointed to communication issues and I think that's a fair assessment.

3. Clients should consider what services they need and use the appropriate service providers where required. In hindsight, I don't think there's a catchall for all requirements while on the ground in Ukraine. I've learnt that now... and newbies have the opportunity to expand their reference points.


All the best in the future,

Kuna (Or Kurt now that I've been outed on a public board)  

[Kuna]

Some people honestly believe that customer is king. That is right and I support this attitude 100%. However, they sometimes miss an important point, what makes you customer, what makes you king: when you agree to pay for services. So, if you do not like to pay or think that rates are too high, you risk being deposed and sent to exile, figuratively (that is being left to your own devices). But if you want to be treated king, just pay like king.

However, some customers want to eat a cake and have it too: to receive good services and care but not pay for it. This is impossible, and it does not help to call it a rip-off.

I did not mean overpaying, my reference to king was sort of in response to what some people imply here, and I just wanted to stress that there is always the other side of the stick.

Pavel’s interaction with Kuna is another question, each party has their interpretation of what happened and it is not quite clear where the truth is. I am not sure about the McDonalds story but calling Pavel ten minutes before arriving in Kiev (and being out of touch before) and giving him a hard time for something which is actually Kuna’s fault is not close to being a king either (a king would have just paid for the apartment or at least called a bit earlier). As for the increase in price, if you refer to the $80/140 claim, I do not believe there was any increase as I proved above. But with other things, Pavel did not communicate well indeed, and as Kuna for some reason assumed that Pavel was going to work basically for free, no wonder there were misunderstandings. This is also Pavel’s fault and I do not defend him there. Never expect a client to think that you do not work for free, however natural it would seem to you and anyone. Always make it clear as for your fees and conditions. I also posted my similar bad experience above, so I know what it is.

Igor,

You "my friend" are a boofhead!   

Kuna