Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!

[Michelangelo]

Igor said: Pavel’s interaction with Kuna is another question, each party has their interpretation of what happened and it is not quite clear where the truth is.


Kuna said-Igor,
You "my friend" are a boofhead!   

I don't know what a boofhead is, but suspect it's something nice. And it takes one to know one, so both Kuna and Igor are nice guys.

And BTW-- I agree with you, Igor--It's all about interpretation.

As you can see, the vast majority of posters here LOVE Pavel, and three don't, so yes, it's interpretation.

[Michelangelo]

Kuna (Or Kurt now that I've been outed on a public board)  

Being outed is a badge of courage here, Kuna.  Or is it really Keith???

For example, do you know who Larry is?  Ray?  David?  Mark? Ken?  They all have their RWD names, but many now know them as Larry, Ray, Ken, Mark and David.  As for me, as you can see in my pic, I'm David too, of course  LOL

[Kuna]

Entertainment abounds:  I can kinda see a few different aspects to all of this.  One that should be understood, and Kuna, if you are 100% honest with yourself, I think you'll agree to an extent, as Aussies, we are the worst tippers in the world and demand the max for the price.  Why?  The salary structures here are totally different to anywhere else by and large.  For the USA guys, we rarely tip a waitress in a cafe unless she has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the call, why? Because she has a protected base salary of $15-25 / hour before she starts.  We pay for it in the price of the meals. 

The resulting attitude here is to protest severely about up charges regardless.  Once quoted a price (In Aus) we watch it pretty closely and tend not to look at the other sides of things, because we are used to paying pretty high for most things.  (Note to Pavel, explain all possible costs and add on's to any Aussie clients, because we are used to a slightly different system) It is not a matter of being cheapskates, it is a matter of being used to high, all inclusive (Yes a few extras) prices being quoted early on if not before. 

In a situation where I require a "Service" I simply sit down with the provider and get it all noted from minute one, including costs for any variances.  Thats the simple way to get control of the situation.  From there, if the provider seems to be "Sneaking" an extra charge in, he will not get one dime more than his/her quoted price, however on the other hand, I am a pretty dammed heavy tipper if I am getting what I was told I would and good service with it.  In such a situation, if the guide had done all he promised over a period of days, and done it well, he could expect to get from me, a day or two's salary in a tipp. 

KenC, you are partly right in your comments about dragging the man out early.  I would have lit up like a vegas neon if I'd been in Kuna's boots, BUT, notice the comment about Pavel not being too keen on dialing an international number to contact Kuna.  With an Aus phone on roaming, effectively the guy can be standing 2 feet away, but you are dialing Aus to talk to him.  From eastern Europe, it is about $1.50 per minute.  I can't say I'd expect a guide to wear that either.  SMS's to Aus roaming phones whilst in Ukraine or Russia are not 100% reliable either.

The fundamental problem here was communications and it could have been vastly improved if Kuna AND Pavel had sorted that phone thing out properly from the get go.  I tend to think that was the basis for much of the breakdown.  When travelling, the phone is KING.  I think everyone can learn something from this, including both Pavel and Kuna.  If I could SHOUT one thing very loudly to all, that would be GET THE PHONE THING SORTED FROM THE GET GO.  I went through all this ages back and had to learn the hard way. ($1500.00 in 9 days phone bill hard way)

FWIW

I/O

I/O,

It wasn't an issue with tipping... I'm sure you're aware that tipping is a common but voluntary practice in some sections of Australian life...   It was more an issue with service expectations.  I think most people are comfortable with putting it down to a breakdown in communication but that still raises an important point for those who took the same approach that I did.  Perhaps the engagement between Guide and Client would be better if it was "confirmed", whether verbally or in writing.

Running out of time to shave, and the early arrival on the morning of the 27th had nothing to do with me using an Australian phone. At that time I had no Internet access (didn't have an Internet Card yet) and the apartment phone didn't ring.  It's OK, some people might consider early arrival to be good service.  When someone tells me they'll arrive at a certain time I would expect them to be there at that time... give or take 10 minutes not an hour or more.

There's no doubt that later in my trip I didn't accept calls at times.  

Example???  5 phone calls to my mobile phone in a 4 minute period when I was seeing Ms C off at the bus station.  I knew it would have been Pavel but I was focused on her departure.  I called him back after her bus left I explained to him I knew it was him but I didn't answer because I was seeing Ms C off.  At other times the phone line might have been plugged into my computer or I might have been out (which was frequent during my trip... I tried not to spend time in my apartment.) Email would have been a good mode of communication though.

I don't agree with the "fundamental problem" assessment... but we can argue that forever.

No big deal... Buyer beware!

Kuna

[Kuna]

COMPARE THIS:
____________
Quote from: Stirlitz on Yesterday at 20:40:03
Some people honestly believe that customer is king. That is right and I support this attitude 100%. However, they sometimes miss an important point, what makes you customer, what makes you king: when you agree to pay for services. So, if you do not like to pay or think that rates are too high, you risk being deposed and sent to exile, figuratively (that is being left to your own devices). But if you want to be treated king, just pay like king.

However, some customers want to eat a cake and have it too: to receive good services and care but not pay for it. This is impossible, and it does not help to call it a rip-off.



Quote from: Stirlitz on Yesterday at 21:33:00
I did not mean overpaying, my reference to king was sort of in response to what some people imply here, and I just wanted to stress that there is always the other side of the stick.

Pavel’s interaction with Kuna is another question, each party has their interpretation of what happened and it is not quite clear where the truth is. I am not sure about the McDonalds story but calling Pavel ten minutes before arriving in Kiev (and being out of touch before) and giving him a hard time for something which is actually Kuna’s fault is not close to being a king either (a king would have just paid for the apartment or at least called a bit earlier). As for the increase in price, if you refer to the $80/140 claim, I do not believe there was any increase as I proved above. But with other things, Pavel did not communicate well indeed, and as Kuna for some reason assumed that Pavel was going to work basically for free, no wonder there were misunderstandings. This is also Pavel’s fault and I do not defend him there. Never expect a client to think that you do not work for free, however natural it would seem to you and anyone. Always make it clear as for your fees and conditions. I also posted my similar bad experience above, so I know what it is.

Igor,

You "my friend" are a boofhead!   

Kuna
____________


TO THIS:

____________
Quote from: Kuna on Today at 08:02:10
Igor said: Pavel’s interaction with Kuna is another question, each party has their interpretation of what happened and it is not quite clear where the truth is.


Kuna said-Igor,
You "my friend" are a boofhead!   
______________

I don't know what a boofhead is, but suspect it's something nice. And it takes one to know one, so both Kuna and Igor are nice guys.

And BTW-- I agree with you, Igor--It's all about interpretation.

As you can see, the vast majority of posters here LOVE Pavel, and three don't, so yes, it's interpretation.

[/size]



... and you'll see that I didn't call Stirlitz a boofhead for the one line out of two quotes that I posted. 

My reference to him being a boofhead came from not just the two quotes I posted, but the miriad of distortions and "farqued up" thinking he seems to generate.

Comparing Pavels response with Stirlitz's drivel is probably an indicator of the quality difference in guides operating in FSU.

I remain unhappy with some of the advice and service given by Pavel...  but I wonder how much worse it would have been with another guide?

My initial thoughts remain... if a newbie is going to use a guide he needs to be aware of some things that might cause him disappointment.

Kuna

[Admin]

Maybe this takes the topic a bit off-course. If so, please do not be shy about bringing it back in-line (maybe a different topic).

As I have read, and now re-read, this many times, this is the thought which keeps coming back to me:

* In the US, and in many developed countries across the globe, for someone to set up a business as a guide and/or interpreter, they normally attend a school - sometimes it is university and sometimes a specialty school - and upon graduation, they have (hopefully) learned some significant skills and knowledge in that particular field.

For example, how does one become a "guide" or an "interpreter" in Ukraine? Are either Pavel or Igor (Stirlitz) specifically-trained in either one?

My guess is (and it is ONLY a guess), that both guys found they could provide a service and make a few $$ from it - but they probably sort of 'fell into it' rather than it being their chosen profession.

There is nothing wrong with that, so please no offense - only that, it is a bit more like hiring a handyman to do a kitchen remodel, rather than a specialty contractor.

This, at least in part, may be the reason for some of the expection and communication problems.

Just a thought.

- Dan

[Admin]

I don't know what a boofhead is, but suspect it's something nice. And it takes one to know one, so both Kuna and Igor are nice guys.

And BTW-- I agree with you, Igor--It's all about interpretation.

As you can see, the vast majority of posters here LOVE Pavel, and three don't, so yes, it's interpretation.

Actually, I think it took some major courage for Kuna to post what he did. I am not endorsing it - merely pointing out that Kuna knew full-well that most guys at RWD have had positive experiences with Pavel. I suspect he knew, in advance, that he would take some serious 'heat' over expressing his opinions.

In spite of that, he felt enough for RWD and her members, that he went ahead and offered an honest (IMO) accounting. It may not 'square' with other's opinions, and there may be a thousand legitimate reasons for the discrepancies - but Kuna offered up an his assessment of the experience.

Others are free to offer their own - and to the extent it does not become personal, they are free to challenge some of Kuna's statements. He is clearly 'man enough' to defend what he has to say - and does a very fine job of it I think.

Unfortunately, as often happens on controversial topics - they become personal, instead of remaining focused on the message itself.

Kuna and a couple of others had some poor experiences with Pavel.

Numerous others have had positive experiences with Pavel.

Pavel himself (welcome! BTW) has addressed some of the issues - and can speak for himself.

Once all the facts and opinions (sans personal attacks) are out on the board - then let's allow the reader themselves to form their own opinions and course of action.

Make sense?

- Dan

[jb]

I have stringently avoided commenting in this thread so far, but since Dan commented, I have to add, hiring a guide is not making a friend.  It has to be an employer/employee relationship.  If you don't get that,,, you may even be in the wrong place to find a g/f or wife.  If the guide assumes a different role, i.e., friend,,, he has overstepped the bounds of the relationship and does not deserve payment for the time spent with his new friend.

Friends do not charge friends for favors.  Employees deserve to be paid for services rendered.   All of you guys who think you are friends with Paval or Stirliz, and still fork over the bucks,,, have your head up your ass.

[Kuna]

Dan,

I think the value in RWD comes from diverse opions and discussions that make people think.

I suspect one of the biggest failures of men that undertake this pursuit is that they don't think enough.  I can't remember who it was, but a few days someone said they were less enthusiastic about their trip to Ukraine after reading the posts and experiences in here.  If that means he has a more realistic view of his trip, then it's a good thing.

If I have one criticism of the discussion in here at times it's that we often see a group of members INSIST that their opinion is the only one that counts.  In reality there may be many ways to do something successfully, and some people will be more comfortable with some than others.

In saying that we need to maintain a grasp on reality, and through our diverse experiences, others can benefit.

Sure, people disagreed with my post but that was based on their own experiences.  Others in future now will have a broader experiences to draw on if they choose to use guides (not just Pavel).  That's the way we all can provide value.

Kuna

[Son of Clyde]

jb, for once I am going to say you are full of crap.

Pavel may not be my best friend but I consider him a friend.

What you wrote sounds more like you are referring to a used car salesman and not a guide.

Maybe the interpreter I used for three way calls could not be considered a friend even when she now writes just to see how we are doing.

Pavel and Stirlitz are business people who are friendly. What is your banker like? Your accountant? Your car repairman? Do you look for nasty people for these services?

[Michelangelo]

All of you guys who think you are friends with Paval or Stirliz, and still fork over the bucks,,, have your head up your ass.

First of all, Pavel is not Stirliz.  Totally different people with totally different personalities.  Pavel is quiet and humble....Stirliz is...well, he is Stirliz...

And you are inaccurate with your post above.  You don't know Pavel.  You don't know me.   You have read here what Pavel did for me, free of charge by the way, when my mother had a heart attack.  That was the action of a friend, not an employee.

Voyageur shares a similar story.

It's ok to knock someone because you don't like their services. Kuna can do that.  Others who have worked with him can praise him.  I can. Thor can. GregfromGeorgia can. Son of Clyde can. 2tallbill can.  But you don't know Pavel and have not used his services.  So from left field you can make calls, but they will not be accurate most of the time.

[Admin]

First of all, Pavel is not Stirliz.  Totally different people with totally different personalities.  Pavel is quite and humble....Stirliz is...well, he is Stirliz...

And you are inaccurate with your post above.  You don't know Pavel.  You don't know me.   You have read here what Pavel did for me, free of charge by the way, when my mother had a heart attack.  That was the action of a friend, not an employee.

Voyageur shares a similar story.

It's ok to knock someone because you don't like their services. Kuna can do that.  Others who have worked with him can praise him.  I can. Thor can. GregfromGeorgia can. Son of Clyde can. 2tallbill can.  But you don't know Pavel and have not used his services.  So from left field you can make calls, but they will not be accurate most of the time.

M/A,

I think the comments were made more from a philosophical point-of-view than they were specific to any individual or circumstance.

My perspective is not too terribly different from jb's. I have become friends with people who initially were paid engagements. But I also recognized a palpable shift in priorities and in our relationship. Clearly the bond you forged with Pavel was absent with Kuna. That doesn't make anyone 'bad' - but it does help to explain the zeal some feel toward support of others.

Anyway - what is the adage - moderation in all things (or something like that). Applies here too - a moderate (or more specifically, temperate) view of this debate would be helpful to all, IMO.

- Dan

[Mir]

Looks like a boofhead is a much nicer version of a dickhead :

1. Boofhead   
 Australian saying. A boofhead is one who is a little slow, or maybe just does silly things. I'm a boofhead, thats why im writing this, it's silly. Generally good natured. The sort of person who drinks and gets so pissed they decide it's a good idea to shout people you barely know drinks.

'Most of my mates are boofheads, that why we get along.'

2. Boofhead 
 
 Australian slang. a person of significant coiffure or otherwise prominent hairstyle.

'that greek boofhead with the big eyelashes'

I wonder what Igor's hairstyle is?
Yes we know who Ray is.
 

[Michelangelo]

IMHO, this thread presents two possible dangers...

First, it started out reflecting negatively on Pavel, who is a great resource to men traveling in Ukraine.  However, the voices of many satisfied clients have thundered over the few negative voices, and I think most people reading this strand and the posts by Thor and Voyageur in other strands will give Pavel an opportunity to serve them.

Second, there is the danger that a newbie might construe that using a guide is a bad idea, if he simply reads the title of the thread.

Here are my thoughts....

a.  Newbies should not strike out into Ukraine on their own.  There are many dangers present, and apart from danger, the different culture and general lack of English of the people will likely get you lost.  Plus, those who go in bars alone are in danger of being taken advantage of by whores or gangs who will drug them and take their money.

b.  If you use an agency, you are at the mercy of the profit driven nature of the beast. It's far better to have you own terp.  Pavel happens to be a guy with good instincts and can read girls very well.  Yes, the man has to decide. But Pavel is a good ear and can provide good advice when you seek it.  The agency terp WILL steer you to the girls the agency would like to sell the most.  Truly, buyer beware.

c.  In Ukraine, cheap is not better. You DON'T want the cheapest cab.  You DON'T want the cheapest restaurant.  My Vik has said a dozen times, "buy cheap, pay twice." With a guide, you can discuss what kind of impresson you want to make with the girl, and with your guide pick out the most appropriate restaurant.  

d.  With a guide, you open up the whole city of girls.  On the subway, in the market, on the street, your guide can help assist you when you want to talk to a girl you bump into.  On my first few agency trips, the terps worked AGAINST me meeting girls "not in their stable."

e.  With a guide, you usually get a person who speaks much better English and is more experienced than the typical 22 year old female agency terp.

Those are a few reasons I think using a guide is a good idea.  Saving money was not mentioned. However, if a guide can help make your trip successful, and you avoid the next trip, then you HAVE saved a lot of money.

Newbies, the best choice is a personal introduction to a girl.  But that is not realistic to most guys.  Thus, my recommendation is to use a guide.  Next best is to use an agency.  But don't stumble into Ukraine on your own.  After a few assisted trips you may be ready.  But by all means use a guide on your first trip.

[Stirlitz]

Igor,

You "my friend" are a boofhead!

I am not “your friend”. If calling names is the only thing you can do instead of refuting my points, I now understand better than ever what really happened to you and Pavel in Ukraine, and feel sorry for Pavel.

You can call me dickhead, bonehead, anyhead, but I don’t care. Let others judge for themselves if a person like you can be trusted and taken seriously. The entire thread gives enough information about it, and your last message to me just caps it. Congrats!

[Voyageur]

" Friends do not charge friends for favors.  Employees deserve to be paid for services rendered.   All of you guys who think you are friends with Paval or Stirliz, and still fork over the bucks,,, have your head up your ass."

Michelangelo answered you very well on this issue, jb. I also remember in your trip report to Kansas talking about your "merry gang of cut-throats" that you were in charge of on your rig. That phrase sounded pretty friendly to me, and I assume that they were also being paid. I also assume that you have some fondness for some of these indivduals even though they are in your charge.

I responded in this thread because Pavel has worked quite hard to build his reputation over the years.  And I wanted to share some of my positive experiences with him to provide another view than that offered by Kuna.

[Stirlitz]

For example, how does one become a "guide" or an "interpreter" in Ukraine? Are either Pavel or Igor (Stirlitz) specifically-trained in either one?

Please check out my language school certificate here:

http://guide.igorkalinin.com/about.en.html

Yes, it’s weird it’s not in English (I cannot change it) but at least I can assure you that it is a government-sponsored language school which is 70 years old or so and is regarded as one of the best in Odessa. Other private schools come and go but this is academic. In fact, I am attending German classes there.

While it is a not an 'interpreter' certificate, the situation is there are not many colleges that train interpreters here. Not quite sure about now, but ten years ago there were just two options for someone who wanted to become an interpreter in Odessa. One was to go to the state university, to the Romanic and German Philology Department. Sounds weird, eh? Especially the word philology which means linguistics. I can tell you that they studied Latin, language history, a lot of grammar there, pedagogy, history of Ukraine, economics, ethics, esthetics, philosophy, environment… etc there and were meant to be teachers actually or translators at best. It had little to do with being an interpreter. However, if you wanted to know the language only and be able to talk fluently rather than to know the details of pronouncing the TH sound in the south of England in the 18th century, there was another better option: the two year language school that I chose.

So when it comes to being certified I guess I have the best certificate I was able to get here then. By the way it is a so-called red certificate which means that I only had A marks.

Perhaps there are some new colleges that train interpreters and guides now. But in 1998 I did not know of any, at least in Odessa.

It has to be an employer/employee relationship.

Yes — while on a tour. But this does not prevent us from making friends after it’s over, and I have many friends whom I first met as clients and worked for as a guide. You have to learn to distinguish between work/business and friendship and not to confuse them, but to say that only one type of relationship is possible between two people in all situations during their lifetime is way too categorical and just does not make sense to me. It is like saying you cannot be in love with your boss. Yes, it is a bad idea but not impossible, especially after things change and she is no longer your boss, for example.

Of course, friendship does not start when you hire someone, it might come later.

[Stirlitz]

I have something more to add. I have a friend here in Odessa. I have known him for nearly 20 years (since school) and most of this time we were close friends. I just do not have a better and closer friend than him.

He once asked me to help him to set up some things for his store. It was not difficult, but when we were done, he gave me some money. I strongly objected but he said that any work must be paid for, and as he was making money he would have paid to someone else to do this job anyway.

A few years later I borrowed a lot of money from him. When I paid back, I added some interest ($50) because I used the money for a long time, six months or so and I believed that as he was going to invest this money elsewhere but lent to me instead he should not have any loss.

These are the only two incidents when we paid each other, of course we have done a lot of things for each other and never thought of charging each other, but the thing is we were and are friends.

By the way I have also done a lot of thing for free for my friends who paid me for services before.

So I would second SOC.

[jb]

Michelangelo answered you very well on this issue, jb. I also remember in your trip report to Kansas talking about your "merry gang of cut-throats" that you were in charge of on your rig. That phrase sounded pretty friendly to me, and I assume that they were also being paid. I also assume that you have some fondness for some of these indivduals even though they are in your charge.

BTW, I'm still in Kansas, however the consulting job from hell officially ended yesterday,,, a few more days of clean up and I'm outta here.   Happiness will be Kansas in my rear view mirror.

Regards my merry band of cut-throats and my relationship with them.   Perhaps it's just my style of leadership, I try very hard not to be an A-hole when I speak to them or give instruction and direction, but they all know who is the boss.  They all know who is the provider of the jobs, and hence the bi-weekly paycheck is not manna from heaven. I respect them for the hard work they do, I mostly encourage them, and sometimes I even scold them when they fall below my expectations.  Sometimes I take away the job if the job and the employee is not a good match.

They all know that while I'm a cheerful and friendly guy,,, I'm not their friend,,, I'm their employer. 

[I/O]

Mir "Boofhead" is definitely NOT a compliment in Au slang.  I think you hear me.  

Kuna I used tipping as an example of Aussie attitude to service payments upthread, not as the issue itself.  We are very very demanding of levels of service because we are used to paying a quoted, all inclusive price and we don't generally react well to upcharging.  I think it might take you a few more trips before you really get a handle on how different we are in this respect.  I don't depart from my view that communication was the biggest problem between Pavel and You.  

M/A I continue to be burmused by the posts I read all over about all the dangers of travelling in Ukraine, Russia and other nearby locations.  I've never used a guide and only used a terp for 1 hour, 1 time.  I don't, even now speak much Russian and in the beginning, spoke none, I never had people meet me at airports early on, didn't even take a phrase book the first trip and I have simply never seen all these major security issues people talk about.  I don't accept that I have just been lucky and I am not that smart, so I can only assume that some of these guys are as stupid as I have seen around some of the airports and high traffic locations.

I am not against guides etc, but I think too many people seem to want to have a proxy momma holding their hand all the way. Ya can't spend all your life sucking mommas tit, ya gotta do a bit for yourself in all of this at some stage.  

Dan Any unregulated industry has a vast array of service standards and I guess ultimately it relies on market forces to weed out those who don't perform.  In the interim, there will always be those who are well serviced and those who get shafted.  It is just the nature of the beast.

I/O

[Son of Clyde]

By the way, we had a family friend who happened to be an attorney. This man helped someone in the family with a messy divorce. The attorney did not work many hours for free even for a friend. I have had attorney friends offer to write a letter for me for free. This letter took maybe 15 minutes of his time. I bought him dinner and he was happy with that. Friendship comes in many forms.

[jb]

Clyde,

Why do you contradict me in one post then make my point in the next?

Very strange...  Very strange indeed.

[Son of Clyde]

What contradiction?

I am saying the attorney was a friend and not just a nameless, faceless attorney. By the same token Pavel & Stirlitz can be friends who happen to be guides.

If my attorney friend was spending 20 hours of his worktime with me I would expect to pay him something.

You, and several others were insinuating that Pavel & Stirlitz should not be considered as friends if they ask for money.

I am also saying that as a friend I would feel guilty not repaying a favor in some way.

[Son of Clyde]

jb, my second post was not directed at you in particular.

[prince_alfie]

Dan Any unregulated industry has a vast array of service standards and I guess ultimately it relies on market forces to weed out those who don't perform.  In the interim, there will always be those who are well serviced and those who get shafted.  It is just the nature of the beast.

I/O
[/quote]

Market forces weeding out the best standards? I doubt that seriously. It's all about image nothing else. Else how did PC outsell Mac's or VHS beat Betamax. Honestly, people don't really care much about customer service or else most of the US corporations wouldn't be exporting customer jobs out to foreign countries with absurd wait times on the phone.

Again, being a tourist guide is a lot smaller scale job on the economic ladder. So I think that with the fragmented market structure, Pavel's position isn't highly competitive like in some other industries. It would make his position more or less dependent on word of mouth. Perhaps most of is fairly subjective anyways so judging how good he is I think is dependent on how stingy the client is for the long run.

[Son of Clyde]

I own a Dell pc and the service contract expired some time ago.
I had a serious problem needing tech support.
I was planning to pay at least $98.00.
One of those farmed out tech people (in another country) gave me an hours worth of free support and never even reported it to Dell.
I waited for him to ask for more information for billing purposes but he said nothing and a bill never arrived.
Now that was a good thing for me and another tech person may have charged me an arm and a leg for their time. This guy may not have been my friend before but he sure is now. We really bonded on that call.