Interesting article from the LA Times.

[Elen]

People in Russia just can cry about bribes and corruption because people in Russia are not protected by LAW. Russia has only one LAW - those people are right who are strong and  powerful.

Typical viewpoint of those who used to pay those bribes searching for excuse of their own crime or their own un-willing to demand their rights  in bad laws

Has Russian Government asked you what a Convention against Corruption you want?
Russian law against corruption is very weak and not in favor of ordinary people. The big and sudden change in Russian law against corruption will be great stroke for whole Russian system because the Russian system is like  beads if you will try to change one head you should take to pieces whole beads...

Again Discussion is not about corrupted government Discussion about that people refuse to learn a law ( which EXIST)  and refuse to learn their rights ( which they HAVE) and refuse to demand their rights ( which IS possible) preferring to justify their OWN actions ( I speak about YOU OWN action)  with bad system not trying to use that tool which even THIS system gives them

Russian ordinary people can do nothing because even Parliamentary elections are under corruption in Russia.
 Do you know how many Russians mothers are losing or have lost their sons in the wars which are saturated with  smell of Government's corruption?
 Are you ready to sacrifice your child?  I'm not.
Olga.

В огороде бузина, а в Киеве дядька - like they say

Let start with not paying bribes in order to get some paper in  ЖЭК before all others who are waiting in lines, let start with not presenting gifts to teacher in order your child would get better marks , let start with not paying bribes at entrance exams in University, let start with paying through Sberbank the WHOLE sum of penalty for broken rules at a road but not only a part of that penalty to road police. Let go to OVIR and get registration there instad of paying bribes in hotel because it's easy way Let pay proper fee without moaning for broken rule with visa instead of offer bribe to border control trying to escape troubles for yourself in such way

IF you manage to do THESE and a like things  then you life would be free from bribes on 90% at least And then you could start to speak about corrupted Government But starting with global problems ( like I see you like to do ) is in vain if you are yourself a part of that bribe system


 And because that I do wish that life for my own child would be better HERE  I do NOT give advices to foreigners how to pay bribes here and do not convince them that there are no other ways to behave here ( otherwise to those who care less how to change things with bribes in the country where they do not live in any more  )
I

[Elen]

One thing I've noticed with the "typical Russian" attitude is if you get screwed over by somebody its your own fault!!

We are discussing some other article if you didn't notice That one which shows perfectly how Americans tend to blame everything and everybody around for that they managed to break visa rule because they didn;t know what they were supposed to do, for that they have not "proper" currency, for that they forgot to sign their own credit card, for that they are too "greedy to pay to taxists but too fragile to use public transportation  and etc
-------------------------------------------

 As for your acticle then if you evere opened any RUSSIAN language newspaper you would find  an OCEAN of criticism there There were SUCH many negative published about life in mass media and shown on TV that only brian washed  with western propaganda  people could belive that reason Russians are not interested in politic anymore is in soviet style propaganda how everything is fine here.

[Mir]

I think Elen has a valid argument.
There are multiple reasons for flourashing bribery and corruption in Russia.
Yes the officials are to blame but people who pay bribes to get things done easily rather then knowing the law and knowing their rights are also helping to promote the bribery culture.
I mean take the case of the article that started all this. The said American should have been aware when his visa expired. He should have phoned the local office that deals with this issue or the airline he was traveling on and asked for guidance before he set of for the airport. They could have told him what needs to be done (like taking the money that he needed etc.)
We have to acknowledge that Elen lives in Russia (or so I think) while most of us are outsiders.

[Rvrwind]

The said American should have been aware when his visa expired. He should have phoned the local office that deals with this issue or the airline he was traveling on and asked for guidance before he set of for the airport

He was aware, the planes weren't flying because of a snowstorm is what I read. Does that make it his fault that he overstayed his Visa? Bullpucky. They wanted his money, plain & simple. Simple minded buearucrates justifying their useless existance, period. In the west we would have undestood & been compationate, not in Russia. Compasion is not in their vocabulary.
I can give several examples, some of which revolve directly around my buisness dealings here. They don't give a rats a$$ about anything but taking your money. Once you understand that, life gets easier!!

[Mir]

“I’m an American. My visa is expired by two days, and I want to go home.”

“Why did you let your visa expire?”

“I was delayed here by the storm, and I forgot to check.”

So as you can read he forgot to check.
The point is that it would have been possible to find out what action to take before he set of for the airport if he had enquired about it.
 I think your assumption that in the West bureaucrats or such officials would have understood and be compassionate is wrong.
If you think that the Western bureaucrats are any less pain in the azz then I think you have never been in a situation with them.

[Rvrwind]

Okay so I miss read about the storm, I'll give you that one. He should have known his Visa was expired & done something to fix it before he even showed up at the airport. Probably would have been easier & less costly to go to the OVIR & have it done there. My dealings wit the OVIR have been quite positive actually & they have always granted me extensions with minimal hassle & cost. Of course I live here with my Russian wife which does make my case stronger to a great degree.

If you think that the Western bureaucrats are any less pain in the azz then I think you have never been in a situation with them.

I have delt with bueaurcrates all my life & although I find non of them to be extremely friendly or willing to help in a great way, I do find the western ones more understanding in many ways. I live in Russia & have for 4 years, I know how foreigners are treated & what the bearucates think of us. Believe me when I tell you they will take your money in a heartbeat, but they would much prefer you stay home & just let them spend it.

[Mir]

R

Well he also had a Russian wife.
I can understand your frustration with bureaucracy in Russia. All countries have there peculiar ways that foreigners can find unacceptable.
Of course officials and bureaucrats in the West can be very helpful and I hope that similar individuals exist in Russia as well.However officials in the West can also be nasty. I know of people who have had terrible experiences with US immigration officials and there are plenty of stories about the visa interviews at the British consulate in Kiev or Moscow when an FSU GF/wife is trying to visit her man.
It is said when you give a little man power that goes to his head and there are little men all over the world.

[Rvrwind]

It is said when you give a little man power that goes to his head and there are little men all over the world.

Gawd!!! Ain't that the truth!!!

[LEGAL]

Elen,

Russian policemans take bribes from Russian people and foreign people who are in Russia. Russian policemans want to know about documents, ID, passport nothing they want just money and they know about their impunity. It is cause and effect of corruption. Russian policemans in Nizhny Novgorod who wanted to get bribe %1000 from  drug dealers were acquitted despite all present proofs.

People who were removing the consequences of catastrophe in Chernobyl are  dying from cancer to date without any help of Government. Please, Elen, do not tell us that these people don't know their  right.

Old woman 71 y.o. who gave her life to Russian Government working on munitions factory is asking people on street for some bread because her old-age pension too small.

Many Russian people even children live in slum and catacombs under Cities because they are victims of corruption.

The small regions in Russia are in great distress because of corruption.

The journalists who were holding the corruption investigation are killed.

Russian Government of course doesn't want to tell Russian people about Government's disgrace.

Elen, 99% of Russian people don't give bribes to bureaucrats. These people have not so much money for giving bribes   

Olga.









 

[Elen]

Elen,
Russian policemans take bribes from Russian people and foreign people who are in Russia.

because minimum in 50% that very people broke some rules and wish to low penalty. For other 50% (much less actually) there are special phone numbers where people could call to try at least to fight with corruption

Russian policemans want to know about documents, ID, passport nothing they want just money and they know about their impunity.

It's their right to ask you about your dociments. Your right is to ask them their ID before you show your own. I doubt that you personally can claim that you have been forced to give a bribe if anyting was fine with your documents

Russian policemans in Nizhny Novgorod who wanted to get bribe %1000 from  drug dealers were acquitted despite all present proofs.

We are speaking about common people If we had drug dealer at this board then a topic how to deal with policemen who take bribes would be at a place 

People who were removing the consequences of catastrophe in Chernobyl are  dying from cancer to date without any help of Government. Please, Elen, do not tell us that these people don't know their  right.

 Please Olga Stop to tell me here about global problems They always would be and they start with YOUR personal attitude that nothing could be done in Russian without bribe ( which you demonstarated here in your previous post and what I am discussing)

Old woman 71 y.o. who gave her life to Russian Government working on munitions factory is asking people on street for some bread because her old-age pension too small..

 (  Утрирую , но тем не менее - May be one of them is a mother of some girl who moved aboard and whose foreigner husband thinks that 200$ is too much for that "lazy bone" - a "lovely topic" at such boards  which is more close to theme. Wish to start a discussion about old parents left behind to die alone? It would be more useful for old people because it's that sphera which you could change something for better whith own behavior

Anyway you still can't  get a point  I 'll repeat it for you one more time ( if you wish I could do it in Russian if my bad English grammar prevents you to get an idea)

 I do not deny existence of corruption in Russia But I have no respect to people who justify their own actions with giving bribes with such lame excuse like " I do that because it's the only one way to deal in Russia" For 99% cases people have to deal in common life with, it's exactly a lame excuse of people's own desire to get some advantages for themselves in a " criminal" way

And yes you are right 99% Russian people have not money for bribes So those foreigners who have those money and pay those bribes ( because " somebody" instead of explaining to those foreigners what rules they are supposed to follow and what to do if rules were broken, give foreigners friendly advice "just pay bribes because it's Russia) are out of my respect as well.
 They both ( who pay bribed and thoe wo give such advices) support corruption in Russia making life of those who do not pay bribes more hard

[Bruce]

"Wish to start a discussion about old parents left behind to die alone?"  Now Elen, how come Russian society has no system to ensure that the elderly have a care network like the USA social security network?  Here every old person who worked when they were young, or who had a spouse who worked gets enough money to live (albeit not  so much money, but definitely enough ie. if I retired today my family would get more than $2000 per month) and pretty much free quality modern health care.  Even immigrants finagle their way into the system here.  Russia as a society just gives example after example how it is a society that does not care about its people.  That is why so many are leaving, either by immigrating to Western Europe or the USA or just dying.................Sorry, I hate to see this but it is the sad truth.  Just admit it and work towards improving your country.  I know, one person can do little, like me trying to change USA foreign policy towards Russia, which I admit for the most part is severely misguided, but at least I can admit the problems in our society.  CAN YOU EVEN GIVE US ONE EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING YOU BELIEVE NEEDS IMPROVING IN RUSSIAN SOCIETY???

[Kuna]

CAN YOU EVEN GIVE US ONE EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING YOU BELIEVE NEEDS IMPROVING IN RUSSIAN SOCIETY???

Modesty???

Open minded thinking???

Realistic views of the world???

Sorry.. couldn't help it.  I like reading Elen's posts but only because it's entertainment.  I would love to hear more of the real world issues in Russia.  No country is perfect!

[Elen]

"Wish to start a discussion about old parents left behind to die alone?"  Now Elen, how come Russian society has no system to ensure that the elderly have a care network like the USA social security network?

How come? Along with democracy . perestroyka and reforms in pension sphera < shrug> That's what was called "freedom" and better economical system which was supposed to replace soviet bad one.

Better you would give me an answer where that social security system could appear from if there was no insurance companies in Soviet time but what was in soviet time was ruined by new democratic authorities?

And if you didn't notice I AM NOT SPEAKING ABOUT HOW EVERYTHING IS GOOD HERE I just ask you foreigners not to make things worse by supporting corruption with your bribes because of your laziness to learn what you are supposed to do here

 Ps  And I better admit that what we had in soviet time was better  
As for life of old people here then my point was in a case of girls who moved abroad leaving old parents behind in that "awful Russia"  better to discuss consequences of their OWN decision for their own parents but not to cry about old people on streets because of bad ( yes it IS bad, MUCH worse than it was in Soviet times)  pension system in Russia hat's was a point - look in mirror before to  blame government

I know, one person can do little, like me trying to change USA foreign policy towards Russia, which I admit for the most part is severely misguided, but at least I can admit the problems in our society.  CAN YOU EVEN GIVE US ONE EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING YOU BELIEVE NEEDS IMPROVING IN RUSSIAN SOCIETY???

I admit those problems do exist as well and discuss here a way for you to do that little you could  but not to do them worse.
And I 'm discussing  here exactly that one problem in Russian society - bribes which many of you foreigner take particpation PERSONALY
 Something wrong with that?

 Or you prefer me to discuss with you only global thing which you could babbling  here about( like pension system, money for Chernobyl firemen, mafia, corrupted government) till no end  without any ability to change them .  What for? You have Olga Legal for that  

[Elen]

Modesty???
Open minded thinking???
Realistic views of the world???

Sorry.. couldn't help it.  I like reading Elen's posts but only because it's entertainment.  I would love to hear more of the real world issues in Russia.  No country is perfect!

Sorry I could not help to say to you that modesty of foreigners who come to Russian like a tourists, their stories about Russia which demostarate their open minded thinking and realistic views on my world is exactly what I find SUCH entertaining  that I still keep to post at such boards 

[BC]

Bruce,

Just an aside

Of the more than 150 developing countries with central banks, the currencies of all but a dozen have depreciated against the dollar since 1970. Some of the depreciations have been huge: a Russian ruble is today worth about 1/4,000 its 1970 value in dollars, and the Brazilian currency, adjusted for all the zeros that have been chopped off it over the years, is worth less than onebillionth its 1970 value.

http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=3563

RU Citizens do have their state pensions last time I checked.

I don't know what Social Security was paying back in 1970 but had something similar happened..  I guess you get the point..

Although the dollar has served as a stable financial instrument over many years, never say never..

I get the sneaky feeling the younger generation in the US and even EU may be looking at similar circumstances some time in their lifetimes.

Not defending, just trying to illuminate.

With all the drawbacks mentioned I don't think I would have too much difficulty adjusting.  I've also seen quite a few places in the US I wouldn't set foot in.

[Turboguy]

Russia has come a long way since I started going there.  In my early trips Russia's financial survival as a country was a major issue.  It is not anymore.  On my second trip the whole banking system had just collapsed.  Most everyone had lost thier lifes savings.   As Russia's econonomy improves and as the life span increases I am sure there will be better pensions that are part of the program.   Our SS system here was never meant to be what it is now in the beginning.   Time cures everything and I the reforms that are made here and there will always be in direct proportions to the political strength of the older folks and those concerned about retirement.

One of the biggest things holding Russia back is that government and business are still tied together and it is not illegal to have ties between them.   When Lukoil was formed the man who wanted to put it together gave each of the government officials involved a new Mercedes to gain their favor.  In return he was given the assets that became Lukoil.  Here they would all be thown in Jail for that. 

I thought the idea that you have a hotline to report corruption was interesting.  Here we have a hotline for people who want to commit suicide where they call and people talk through their problems.   There for people who want to commit suicide you have a number for reporting corruption, interesting.   

[Mir]

TG

Maybe in Russia reporting corruption is equivalent to committing suicide?

[Bruce]

BC, excellent points as usual.  I agree wholeheartedly.  Yes, Russia has had many bad breaks since the fall of the Soviet Union.  It is a shame the West did not help Russia properly  .   Elen, I do see a glimmer of hope that your close minded nature may be reasoned with  . 

[catzenmouse]

I think we have plenty of instances of "close minded thinking" from many posters here. It truly isn't covered by a single poster or country of origin.

FWIW,
 Ken

[LEGAL]

there are special phone numbers where people could call to try at least to fight with corruptionIt's

You can  prove nothing without witness. When you are in private with policemen  in their car or in their office you have not any witness.

May be one of them is a mother of some girl who moved aboard and whose foreigner husband  

Maybe this old woman has not any children because of her health that she has gave to Government working hard. Maybe this woman has lost her only son in war in Afghanistan. Think about it.

And yes you are right 99% Russian people have not money for bribes So those foreigners who have those money and pay those bribes ( because " somebody" instead of explaining to those foreigners what rules they are supposed to follow.

The foreigners who are with policemen in private without any witness as a Russian people have not any rules and rights and can  prove nothing in front of policemen who breake law.

Olga.

[Elen]

You can  prove nothing without witness. When you are in private with policemen  in their car or in their office you have not any witness.

Such phone numbers do exist, such departments which use such calls in their fight against curruption inside police do exist Your business is to call at least to that number if you thought you were forsed to give a bribe That's better than just to pay that bribe and in addition to pay it by own iniciative.

Maybe this old woman has not any children because of her health that she has gave to Government working hard. Maybe this woman has lost her only son in war in Afghanistan. Think about it.

I will think abut it And you will think about mothers who girls like you who moved abroad left behind in FSU - a LOT to thinking about and more to place at such boards

The foreigners who are with policemen in private without any witness as a Russian people have not any rules and rights and can  prove nothing in front of policemen who breake law.
Olga.

I prefer to hear stories from those who PERSONALY had such a problem with police in Russia instead of reading "guessings" what is "obligated" to happen with foreigners in Russia.

My advice for those foreigners would be - have proper documents with you, have proper registration ( but not which was bought for bribe like somebody adviced), ask ID from police before you hold any of yours to them. Try such a way and I guarantee you that in a case with real ( even corrupted one) police you would have much LESS problems ( if you had any at all to this time)

[Rvrwind]

I prefer to hear stories from those who PERSONALY had such a problem with police in Russia instead of reading "guessings" what is "obligated" to happen with foreigners in Russia.

I hope I'm around the day you wake up & smell the coffee Elen.
I have been in this country for 4 years & I have had to deal with your corrupt cops, your corrupt tax police & your corrupt courts. The whole friggin' works is a cesspool of corruption.
I was thrown in jail in St. Petersburg just because the cop didn't like the stamp in my passport. My documents have alway been legal, my wife makes sure of it, but just because he had a hard on to hassle a foreigner, I get thrown in jail. Who do I call for police harrassment? ??? In the west a cop can't stop you just because he feels like it. He bloody well better have a good reason or you can tell him to pi$$ off. In the west your innocent till proven guilty, in Russia your just guilty, period!
It is not a very pleasant thing for a foreigner to be thrown in jail in Russia at any time, but when your totally innocent of any wrongdoing it is very scary. If I was a weaker man I may have caved as many would have & paid a bribe to secure my release, but I ain't a weak man & I don't take crap. Others might think it is their only choice.
So like you say about being in Russian shoes & living the Russian life & being involed with the authorities as a Russian we will never undestand. I say to you that you have never been a tourist here that dosn't speak the language & been hassled by the police either so you have no idea what that is like.
All I do know is in the west there are laws to protect peoples rights, in Russia people have no rights, especially foreigners. Russian tourists in Canada would never be treated the way we are treated here, never, & that is fact!
A perfect example is I had to take the bus to Moscow & had an appointment to make & biusness to conduct. At a highway police station they pulled the bus over, came on board & took three fellows off the bus for questioning. We sat there for over an hour waiting till they were released. Others as well as myself missed our appointments because they have nothing better to do. You disrupt the lives of 50 people on a whim. How totally rediculous. Do know how much trouble a cop would be in in Canada if he did that? And don't tell me all these police checks & crap are to stop terrorism because thats pure proganda bull$hit. Remember the Moscow Metro or the Theatre hostage taking or Beslan, yep thats really workin' for ya'. Gimme me a break.
Its nothing more than trying to control the people, plain & simple. Keep 'em paranoid & they won't step outa line. Communism refined, thats the best way to describe it, same crap just a different cover!!!

[Mir]

R

I am sure you have local experience but I am sure that ordinary Russians are treated worse by the police and other agencies then Americans and Europeans.

[LEGAL]

Rvrwind What coffee? NETCAFE  Thats not real coffee. Rvrwind some can't see the forest through the trees or don't want to 


LEGAL

[Rvrwind]

I am sure you have local experience but I am sure that ordinary Russians are treated worse by the police and other agencies then Americans and Europeans.

I wouldn't take that to the bank & Tourists are sure as hell not treated that way in my country!!

Rvrwind some can't see the forest through the trees or don't want to

Too true, Legal, too true!