Interesting article from the LA Times.

[Elen]

I hope I'm around the day you wake up & smell the coffee Elen.
I have been in this country for 4 years & I have had to deal with your corrupt cops, your corrupt tax police & your corrupt courts. The whole friggin' works is a cesspool of corruption.

Indeed I should wake up and find and answere why and how  did I managed to spend here 10 time more than you and escape those problems, pay no one single bribes to corrupt police and to anybody else and still don't lose a believe that law does exist in Russia  ( but the first tagest for corruption are exactly those who broke rules by themselves)
To other hand should I wake up and start to pay bribes , splutt words of hatred against  to everything around or better to live in such a bliss where I'm now?   That;s is a question
 

I was thrown in jail in St. Petersburg just because the cop didn't like the stamp in my passport. My documents have alway been legal, my wife makes sure of it, but just because he had a hard on to hassle a foreigner, I get thrown in jail.

EVEN presume you told here a truth ( which I do doubt VERY badly ) your Russian wife should know better what to do Because punishment for bad stamp in a passport is not jail for anybody at all But punishment for illegal arrest does exist for police (ESPAECIALLY in a case with foreigners)
 

Who do I call for police harrassment? ??? In the west a cop can't stop you just because he feels like it. He bloody well better have a good reason or you can tell him to pi$$ off. In the west your innocent till proven guilty, in Russia your just guilty, period!
It is not a very pleasant thing for a foreigner to be thrown in jail in Russia at any time, but when your totally innocent of any wrongdoing it is very scary. If I was a weaker man I may have caved as many would have & paid a bribe to secure my release, but I ain't a weak man & I don't take crap. Others might think it is their only choice.

You see I start to believe that you did get that punishment in jail but not because of "wrong stamp" in your passport but because you tried to show Russian police that you "were not a weak man "  and don't take crap when they asked you to show that passport ( that's their right here, better you used to that and take it easy )
 IF you did that like you used to do that at this board with all those emotions and shouting  then no wonder you ended in a jail with accusation something like  "actions against authorities"  Was not it in such way , dear?  

So like you say about being in Russian shoes & living the Russian life & being involed with the authorities as a Russian we will never undestand. I say to you that you have never been a tourist here that dosn't speak the language & been hassled by the police either so you have no idea what that is like.
All I do know is in the west there are laws to protect peoples rights, in Russia people have no rights, especially foreigners. Russian tourists in Canada would never be treated the way we are treated here, never, & that is fact!

You are right only in one thing. I have little chance to find how Russian people would be treated in Canada because Russian people are treated like insects in your western Embassies and have little chances to get into "civilized" country protected by your visas laws.
 Also I prefer to hear such stories from somebody else Your posts ARE too emotion for my reading . Till that time I read in trip reports that people had no problems with police here.

A perfect example is I had to take the bus to Moscow & had an appointment to make & biusness to conduct. At a highway police station they pulled the bus over, came on board & took three fellows off the bus for questioning. We sat there for over an hour waiting till they were released. Others as well as myself missed our appointments because they have nothing better to do. You disrupt the lives of 50 people on a whim. How totally rediculous. Do know how much trouble a cop would be in in Canada if he did that?

No I have not idea what your police would do if they had a need to questioning somebodies who were "wanted" (sending them invitation through post service? ) As for our police then they do such thing ONLY because they are tooooo boring at a duty - there are no other reasons for ruining  the lives of 50 people in a whim  Yeah it's just such a fun of Russian police here  

And don't tell me all these police checks & crap are to stop terrorism because thats pure proganda bull$hit. Remember the Moscow Metro or the Theatre hostage taking or Beslan, yep thats really workin' for ya'. Gimme me a break.

Nope To tell you such obvious things is in vain You would not believe me at all.  ( You would not believe me even if I told about proved fact that due to exactly such check in Moscow metro, ter act at Rizhskaya  happened not underground where there would be 10 tome more victim but on open area)
 Better you tell me what Russian police should to do to prevent terracts ( but without emotions it's too hard for me to find crumbs of ideas you are trying to prove me in an ocean of your "emotions"

[Elen]

R
I am sure you have local experience but I am sure that ordinary Russians are treated worse by the police and other agencies then Americans and Europeans.

 Let everybody tell about his/ her own experience Ok? You will tell us about yours when you return back form Russia ( though I warm you - follow advices of somebody here with getting anything here only for bribe and you have a chance not to return at all  .) 

I tell you about mine.

That jurnalist told about his one.  ( we all can see that a LOT of his bad experience was his own fault)

 Rvrwind who likes to show that he is not a "weak man" and dose not take a crap told about his experince ( one "jail" for 4 years in Russia with such short temper and such attitude to all Russian is not such bad I;'d say  )

Legal's family for unknow for me reason preferes to re-tell stories from newspapers instead of telling what bribes and what for they paid here  and how many time they spent in jail 

[LEGAL]

Such phone numbers do exist, such departments which use such calls in their fight against curruption inside police do exist Your business is to call at least to that number if you thought you were forsed to give a bribe  

People who are in private with corrupt policemen don't even have the  right to make one phone call.

I will think abut it And you will think about mothers who girls like you who moved abroad left behind in FSU - a LOT to thinking about and more to place at such boards

Do you think that a decent foreign husband would allow his wife to leave her very old mother to the mercy of fate?
Your phrase "like you" just says to me that you have an itch to talk about my family or pick on me personally as you like to do when you are not able to prove your position properly. In any case I can say to you that my 54 y.o. mother is happy that she has a loving family and she knows that she has two homes and now even a loving son in law and will never be alone in her very old age as many mothers of Russian girls aboard feel such happiness.

Please, Elen, don't  explain your itch about me. You have already done it

No dear    I care little about your family and didn't mention anything about it at all.

Some girls who live and work in Moscow City and in other Russian Cities forget about their old parents leaving them without any attention or just send them to a cheap State home for aged people and pay to the State some rublies for caring of their parents and even don't visit them until there parents' death and after that they begin to be at law with the other relatives for their parants floorspace.

Olga

[Rvrwind]

  I would get better results banging my head against a wall!
Elen you can think what you wish, but don't ever call me a liar! As a matter of fact there was another prominant RWD member with me the day I got arrested & kows the entire story I told was the absolute truth & I shouted at nobody & remained utterly calm untilI I was released a hell of a long way from where they picked me up, in totally unfamiliar surroudings & had my friend & my wife not found me I would have been a long time finding my way.
You as usual jump to conclusions & call everybody who doesn't kiss the Russian flag a liar or somesuch other hostility. Your country is going down hill & you & your ilk havn't the eyes to see or the courage to change its course. Status quo is always easier.
I pity you. You will find that one day you will wish you had seen the reality instead of walking around with your eyes closed.
Oh by the way, it is easier for a Russian wife to immigrate to Canada than for a Canadian husband to immigrate to Russia!!!

[Elen]

People who are in private with corrupt policemen don't even have the  right to make one phone call.

You didn't get an idea about those phone numbers at all (Idea what we are speaking about always somehow slips out of your attention)  It;s not for a call to your attorney It's for a call to a department which business is to fight corruption inside police. It's not late to call there in any time if you wish those bad police men get punishment.

Do you think that a decent foreign husband would allow his wife to leave her very old mother to the mercy of fate?

  I got such an idea from discussions at that very board and at similar boards as well ( all those talks that 200$ per month is too much for those "lazy bones" and a silence at my question are those decent husbands going to bring "her" old parents to the USA or just wait till problem would be solved in"natural way" )

Your phrase "like you" just says to me that you have an itch to talk about my family or pick on me personally as you like to do when you are not able to prove your position properly. In any case I can say to you that my 54 y.o. mother is happy that she has a loving family and she knows that she has two homes and now even a loving son in law and will never be alone in her very old age as many mothers of Russian girls aboard feel such happiness.

"Like you" meant that you were in that group who moved abroad and  who would better think about problems of parents who left alone back in home instead of speaking about "old women at streets" Nothing personal to you except that it's you who like to  worry about global problems when there is a need to justify behaviour with giving bribes and breaking rules because of lack of knowledge.
As for ' never been alone" - then I could tell you stories how it looks like " never been alone" from Russian side of fence Because I happened to live next to one of such happy mothers (till she died alone in empty flat like many mothers of other girls who married to decent foreigner husband )

Some girls who live and work in Moscow City and in other Russian Cities forget about their old parents leaving them without any attention or just send them to a cheap State home for aged people and pay to the State some rublies for caring of their parents and even don't visit them until there parents' death and after that they begin to be at law with the other relatives for their parants floorspace.
Olga

Yes there are some such girls But I tried to find out how good girls who moved abroad were going to solve a problem with their old parents You know what? Sending them to rest houses was on top in their plans as well Asking about your personal plans is in vain I guess as it would be taken like "personal itch" one more time or I would got a lecture how things are bad with rest  houses in Russia or something like that 

[Elen]

I would get better results banging my head against a wall!
Elen you can think what you wish, but don't ever call me a liar! As a matter of fact there was another prominant RWD member with me the day I got arrested & kows the entire story I told was the absolute truth & I shouted at nobody & remained utterly calm untilI I was released a hell of a long way from where they picked me up, in totally unfamiliar surroudings & had my friend & my wife not found me I would have been a long time finding my way.
You as usual jump to conclusions & call everybody who doesn't kiss the Russian flag a liar or somesuch other hostility. Your country is going down hill & you & your ilk havn't the eyes to see or the courage to change its course. Status quo is always easier.
I pity you. You will find that one day you will wish you had seen the reality instead of walking around with your eyes closed.
Oh by the way, it is easier for a Russian wife to immigrate to Canada than for a Canadian husband to immigrate to Russia!!!

 1. Where could I read the entire story told  by that other member of RWD who was with you but was not arested thoufh he was a foreigner too ( did I got right you) ?

2. It's "hard" for you to get Russian citezenship because you have no wish to declain you Canadian one (was not it THAT your main claim to Russian law as far as I recall?)  And you have no wish to lost Canadian passport exaclty because of fine way Canadians treat Russian tourists 

3. Are you still here in Russia which is going down hill or you immigrated to Canada  ?  If yes then why? Editted I'm off to other thread to read about "advantaches of foreigners in Russia" I think I 'll get answer at my question there

[LEGAL]

Elen if you don't like any of us why are you hear  ???  

 The dead Russian reporters that reported on corruption and criminal policeman in your country is proof enough to the world. Can you get this fact when people are  alone with corrupt police they don't even have the basic right to a telephone. Elen my family has been doing business with the Russian government and civilians in Russia since the late seventies. I do have first hand knowledge. I do agree and stand behind Rvrwind 100 percent I have never known him to be a liar.


LEGAL

[ScottinCrimea]

     It appears we have a Stalinist in our midst!  They will claim The Soviet system is the best in the world, there are no problems under this system and if one should appear it is only because of foreign influence which must be eliminated at all cost.  Elen is becoming a caricature.  I see the image of someone with their head in the sand, arms flailing away at anyone who tries to help or even dares to mention that her head is in the sand.
     My personal experiences with officials here in Ukraine have been varied.  I have never been approached by any policeman or asked for my documents.  The two cases I have personal experience with were one case in which my wife's daughter was accused of assaulting another woman's daughter.  Her hope was to get a payoff from a "rich American" to not pursue this.  Even though we had witnesses to show that the other girl instigated the fight, my wife was told by the police that unless she was willing to pay $80 for gas for the police cars, the case would go to court.  The officer asked my wife to meet him on the corner in the evening to pay the $80 and when she met him he insisted that they go to a nearby bar to conclude the transaction so no one on the street would see.  Once there, he insisted she sit with him drinking and talking for two hours, obviously hoping to get more than money from her.  She was finally able to extricate herself and the case died. The other case involved some money that I had stolen from me.  The police found the suspect and retrieved the money but instead of reporting this they falsified the report and kept the money for themselves, then closed the case.  We spoke to the suspect personally and were told all of this and how they insisted on silence with threats.  We were able through high contacts to have the case reopened and were told all of these facts by one of the "higher ups".  Their problem was that as long as the offending officers stuck to their story, they could really do nothing as far as getting our money returned.
     As far as my experience with bribes, I personally have never paid one here, but I have seen my family and friends be forced to do so.  It is common with any business with a government office to have them ask for more money to speed up the process.  The implied threat is that if you don't pay, you can wait a very long time for things to get done, if it doesn't get lost.  Elen talks about it being our choice whether or not to pay bribes but oftentimes there really is no choice.  Ask any citizen here and they will agree that it is inherent in the system. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.  One way we get around most of these situations is by having friends in high places.  All they do is make a phone call and problems suddenly disappear.
     I can honestly say that I have been treated with nothing but respect by all authorities I have dealt with here and have seen no instances of my being treated differently because I am a foreigner.
     Now let me site another experience:  We were trying to track down where my father in law's original birth certificate could be found, since he was born in an area of Kazakhstan that has had several name changes.  I wrote to the American Embassy there asking for help and my wife wrote to the Ukrainian Embassy.  The US embassy reply was to contact the Kazakhstan Embassy in the US.  On the other hand, the Ukrainian Embassy sent an e-mail to my wife asking for more information, then called her personally to confirm and tell her that they would take care of everything.

[Mir]

Certainly much of the bribe culture is supported by ordinary citizens rather then rich foreigners.
One of my friends is a nurse in Kiev and tell me that as soon as a patient is admitted to the hospital he/she is expected to pay bribes to the doctors,to the nurses,to the toilet cleaner etc. and if they can't they are treated badly. The amount may not be huge, maybe a few gryvnas or even some fruits depending who is the giver and who is the taker. In the same way bribe is needed to get admission to a university and is needed to pass every exam etc.
Still I am talking about Ukraine, maybe Russia is different.

[catzenmouse]

Mir,

 When Elena's grandmother was in the hospital last year her daughter (Elena's mother) fed her, cleaned her, changed the bed sheets etc. The staff would do nothing unless they were paid for it up front. So, no different in Russia.

Ken

[groovlstk]

Just FYI,

Most people who've been reading this board for two years or more know it's pointless to try to argue with Elen, you're simply spinning your wheels.

She is what she is, no amount of arguing will change her opinions, one regular poster even resigned after going at it with her during the infamous "hamburgers vs. kotleki meatgrinder brawl of '05."

FWIW, I value Elen's opinion and I'm glad she posts here, there's often a grain or two of truth in what she says once you look beyond the pride and propaganda.

[catzenmouse]

She is what she is, no amount of arguing will change her opinions, one regular poster even resigned after going at it with her during the infamous "hamburgers vs. kotleki meatgrinder brawl of '05."

I heard they're still finding bodies around from that one...

Ken

P. S. I also enjoy her opinion and perspective and am glad she posts here.

[groovlstk]

Ken, I still crack up when I think of the indignation and righteousness in that argument!

Maybe it's a good thing, we've come a long way since the cold war if we can argue so passionately about food

[Elen]

I strongly advice ALL OF YOU to QUOTE MY WORDS and post a reply to exactly them instead of making sill conclusion like that

Elen if you don't like any of us why are you hear  ???  

Also quotation would be necessary for not to mess topic and if I told about needing not to pay bribes if there IS other ways like to learn a law and demand you right then there is no need to make silly conclusion that I deny existence of corruption in Russia at all )( as well as like any other problems in Russia)

As for you personally LEAGL I asked about you PERSONAL experience when you forced to pay bribes  to police Have any - tell about it. NO  - then sorry you are out off topic with "dead Russian reporters" of yours

[Elen]

Certainly much of the bribe culture is supported by ordinary citizens rather then rich foreigners.

Agree But as we speak about foreigners in Russia then I could only wonder how YOU ( from civilized society)  who are supposed to be raised in believe that bribe was BAD are so ready to pay those bribes such easely here - for any simple things ( blaming Russian culture for that of course)

One of my friends is a nurse in Kiev and tell me that as soon as a patient is admitted to the hospital he/she is expected to pay bribes to the doctors,to the nurses,to the toilet cleaner etc. and if they can't they are treated badly. The amount may not be huge, maybe a few gryvnas or even some fruits depending who is the giver and who is the taker. In the same way bribe is needed to get admission to a university and is needed to pass every exam etc.
Still I am talking about Ukraine, maybe Russia is different.

Exactly a result of actions of those who pay those bribes before and therefore all other who came later just "obligated" to pay them My personal choice - is not to  pay them That my choice even if it costs me less comfort with toilets From my viewpoint it's the only one way to stop bribering but not to moaning at internet board how things are bad with them in Russia. My point in this discussion which you all for sure could not change and which many of you failed to get was it's better to start with your own actions instead of blaming system.

  PS As for bribing to get admission to a University then it is the most common lie of those who just have no brains to pass exams like others do that

[Elen]

She is what she is, no amount of arguing will change her opinions, one regular poster even resigned after going at it with her during the infamous "hamburgers vs. kotleki meatgrinder brawl of '05."

 I see you still can't forgive me that I like kotletki more than gamburgers ( that was EXACTLY my words after which a howl about how I hate America  muffled any common sence at that discssion )

[Elen]

Mir,
 When Elena's grandmother was in the hospital last year her daughter (Elena's mother) fed her, cleaned her, changed the bed sheets etc. The staff would do nothing unless they were paid for it up front. So, no different in Russia.
Ken

One more that's a result of actions of those who paid before At least 50 % is exactly their blame.

[Kuna]

I can't work out whether Elen adds value to this board or whether she is a troll...

I read her posts and have sirens and red lights going off in my head because it reminds me what some people must be like in FSU. 

I get similar warnings when I read some of Stirlitz's posts at times and it seems to centre around this concept that the victim of crime is the one at fault... a "strongest shall survive" attitude that totally rejects any responsibility to social justice or fairness.

I thought commmunism was about social justice and equality but it seems that the outcome of decades of repression has corrupted the concept of fairness. I don't blame Elen for your skewed thought process... I actually feel a bit sorry for her.  Being brainwashed as she obviously was makes her a victim, but I guess that makes it her own fault right.  ???

It's a worthy warning to all of us pursuing a relationship with a FSUW.  Is your girl really like Elen or Olga?  You'd better make sure you know!

Kuna

[Elen]

Don't worry Kuna I will survive somehow with such opinion of yours about my lovely person - nothing new in your guessings and assumptions actually. You are not the first who call me a troll and who see me like not "decent" material for wife of some foreigner Somehow I'm not upset with that at all.  Odd , is not it ?

[Photo Guy]

Speaking of food and Elen. I think you all should just take her ideas and opinions
as food for thought. She has experienced the political changes from Breshnev
through Putin. (and economic and social changes) She is a real RW/Moscovite.
For added insight into her thinking, you might try PM'ing her, and that's true
for any member of this forum. You want to understand RW, correspond with
them directly. I can't guarantee they all will answer you. I'm just saying
ALL of the RW here at RWD have the potential of being an excellent resource.
...and Elen does have a great sense of ironic humor.

[Kuna]

Don't worry Kuna I will survive somehow with such opinion of yours about my lovely person - nothing new in your guessings and assumptions actually. You are not the first who call me a troll and who see me like not "decent" material for wife of some foreigner Somehow I'm not upset with that at all.  Odd , is not it ?

Elen,  I'm not calling you a troll but from any balanced person from a western culture your view of the world is ceratinly "different".   

You're so certain about your beliefs but they are so very different than most people involved in this pursuit... including other FSUW. Diverse discussion is good for any community as long as new mebers don't think you are the "typical Russian".

I think it's good you're not upset that you woud be a bad match for a foreigner...  It would seem to be an unhappy union.

Then again... PhotoGuy seems to be an admirer... He might be a good match for you???

Kuna

[Gator]

Kuna wrote,

decades of repression has corrupted the concept of fairness

The fairness system in Russia is simple:  when something goes wrong, it is always the other person's fault.  

This extends to the extreme - if Person A did something stupid, it is Person B's fault for failing to tell Person A not to do the stupid act.

Russians (and I guess Ukrainians too) are defensive people.   They do not take responsibility for failure and mistakes, and certainly will not admit being wrong.   Debating who is right is a waste of time.  Why?  For the same reason that it is always the other person's fault, they will never admit wrongdoing nor share any blame.  You have seen that in regard to the guide issue.

This trait of Russian culture is not the same as the Asian “saving face.” Saving face is usually accomplished in a win-win dynamic.  In Russia, it is a win-lose, zero sum game.  

In contrast, most of us in Western society value the relationship over being right.  We are team builders and look long term.  I have talked to people doing business in Russia and they complain of this short-term attitude.  

Personally, I found the Russian defensive behavior strangely humorous at first.  Now it exasperates me.   When I encounter it with a woman I simply say we both know the truth and we both can do better.  I will not try to debate who is right.  

It took at least six months of working with my ex-fiancée to rid her of this attitude.  My current girlfriend  is a little defensive, yet improving.

[Elen]

Elen,  I'm not calling you a troll but from any balanced person from a western culture your view of the world is ceratinly "different".   

So what? Trust me I AM VERY balanced person as well And  your western thoughts about my culture seem for me different as well What should I do with that?

You're so certain about your beliefs but they are so very different than most people involved in this pursuit... including other FSUW.

You see I don't know what exactly my " belives" you are speaking about (as you don't qoute me and it's too often people prefer to replayce my "belives" whith their owm "ideas" ) But what I could see about "your" ( in general)  belives that in many cases it's tsomethng  like that " I personaly had not bad experiment with that and that but I heard ( they say... they write in pres ) ..... and thefore I belive it's ALWAYS like that "  ( PS that's about THIS topic . If you have "claims" to  my believs about other things discussing in other topics better to make those claims in those topics. Otherwise it would be hard for me to get what exactly my viewpoints don't suit your western mentality.

Diverse discussion is good for any community as long as new mebers don't think you are the "typical Russian".

I hope you don't count people involved in process of finding husband abroad like "TYPICAL Russians" don't you?
 As for me I try my best not to count foreigners who came here to get Russian wives like typical for their countries.  It would be TOOO unfair to all others in those countries 

 

[Elen]

Kuna wrote,
The fairness system in Russia is simple:  when something goes wrong, it is always the other person's fault. 
This extends to the extreme - if Person A did something stupid, it is Person B's fault for failing to tell Person A not to do the stupid act.

Wonder was not it MY opinion that American guy whose article we were discussing here tried to blame anybody else around  for his own faults except himself?

Was not it's me who tried to explain my viewpont that if you paid bribes then it's YOUR blame as well and ther was no need to blaime system if you paid bribes because of a wish to get things more easy for yourself?

 

Though I was marked like not typical Russian so may be Kuna was right

[viking]

Gator

So true. I have personally been involved in several circumstances where, "I am sorry" is just not on the table. Rather than her admitting to being wrong, I was faced with either a no response, change of subject, or defensive attittude.

Elen

We never really exchanged posts, but I do read yours and they are refreshing. If some other people cannot stand the heat, they should move out of the kitchen. You have your opinions and you are entitled to them. I enjoy the differences.