Overcoming the language barrier

[Jazzyclassy]

One of the big breakthroughs in my relationship with my wife was when I could finally sit down and speak with her parents and friends without her having to be there to act as an interpretor.  I was able to validate what I knew about her, both the good and the bad.  Believe me, a Russian MIL won't sugarcoat things.  It was great to hear about her childhood and life from her parents' perspective and to share her friends rather than just being a bystander.  Also, with a 15 year old non English speaking daughter, it would be impossible to get by without knowing a few choice words.  Even if she is coming to America to live with you, you can't expect her entire family to learn English, and you're missing out on a lot if you can't have e few heart to hearts with her parents of if everything comes through her filters and views as she translates.

yeah that is vital thing , when you are able to understand her relatives without her translating things and paraphrasing them in her own way but leave the sense of what you said but again it will change a little bit cos it is not you who tells the things , she is translating

I think it means a lot to a woman when her man starts to learn russian and tries to find out things about her, about her childhood , about her way of life and her thoughts and he takes such a great interest in her culture and wants to learn russian at least some basic things , to my mind that is the highest way of appreciation of this woman and you really care about her and love her , when my boy was listening to russian course and learning words that was so so so so pleasent and I was extremely happy that he wants to learn a little bit of russian.

[Photo Guy]

Daveman wrote:
As for my perspective, it's obvious I agree with everyone who espouses the "take it slowly" approach.  For god's sake, at least wait until the "infatuation" stage is over to propose marriage.

Hey, we both agree on that. I often see guys who are unaware of the
'infatuation' stage, and then later a new reality sets in, which may be
another stage of loving or a stage of conflicting values.

...thanks for the kind remark about my portfolio.

Sure it makes sense to want to find and choose a woman
based on your ability to communicate without a language
barrier. That's pragmatic. But, it's the same kind of logic
that says: Five years of pre-marriage dating will result
in a better outcome/marriage than one year of dating. We can go on
and on about why it's better for both of you to exchange
a thousand questions and answers befor marriage, as
opposed to just one hundred questions.

But life and and romance are not like that. In my experience,
two people develop an undefinable chemistry that unites
their bodies and souls. It may happen quickly, even with a
language barrier, or it may take a long courting phase.
That's just my experience.  ...and it reminds me of Riverwind's
comments about the value of women who speak little English.
He was speaking from his experience, looking at many
couples, and many single RW.  There are diamonds in
the rough.

I agree with Leslie that the right attitude goes a long way.
- an atmosphere of love, patience, compassion, compromise, etc.

My personal 'failure' was not due to the language barrier, although
the language barrier was a challenge. It was due to my bad
decision not to meet her parents in the early stage. And dealing
with a dependent papa, was ...an obstacle I couldn't overcome.
-doug

[WmGO]

El Rock,

Just noticed your quip from April 12. That story was not a myth. It really happended. Dan, KenC, PhilB, Jack or others who were around PL in the early 2000s can verify the story. The man, who was a member of PL, was criticised for his methodology. He was called crazy and fool. But several years after he brought his wife to the States they were stilll married and happy.
I do not recall the story ever being declared to have been a hoax on the PL board FWIW.
 

[Infantryman]

Hello everyone!  Yeah, my first post and it's about *this* topic.  I'm new at this, only been corresponding for a few months now but have met some very nice women from the Ukraine.  One has really captured my attention and I thought it'd be great to call her with the help of an interpreter.  Well, to make a short story even shorter, it went horribly.  With it being the weekend I'll have to wait a couple more days before reading her thoughts about our "conversation."  Her English is poor and my Russian is nonexistent.  I will not be going to the Ukraine till early next year and have started taking Russian lessons twice a week.  That gives me a little bit of time to learn and I hope I find out I have a gift for languages!   Thing is, I'm real serious about my search.  I don't know if Liliya is the right girl for me or not, and won't know for a long time.  But, I want to remove as many hurdles to winning her heart as I can before we meet and, like I said, should it turn out we're meant to be together then be able to minimize the opportunities for failure.  (No, I'm not eloquent and hope that makes sense to someone other than myself.)  I've read a lot here about how important (or not) common language is to making a relationship work.  What I need to know, besides the obvious of looking only for English speaking women, is what do I need to do to succeed?  Taking Russian lessons? Check!  Being realistic in my expectations for a possible wife? Check!  What else would you recommend?  I'm 37 and corresponding with women in their late 20s to early 30s, really making sure they understand who I am and what I'm looking for in a potential wife at the very beginning and working hard to learn as much about the FSU as I can.  Divorce:  been there, done that, she got the t-shirt (and everything else.)  I'm really not interested in another divorce...  Thanks for reading all my noob questions.

Sincerely,
John

[ScottinCrimea]

Hi John, welcome to the forum.  It sounds like you are taking the right first steps.  since you're not going to Ukraine for several months yet you have plenty of time to take all of the necessary steps.  Don't get discouraged with the Russian lessons.  It's difficult at all times, but especially when you aren't where you can practice ti regularly.  I guarantee you will hit a few walls during the learning process.  Just hang tough and you can work through them.  I know there were timew when I thought I was moving backward rather than forward.

Since I live in Ukraine now, I'm curious what city your lady is from.

[Simoni]

My personal 'failure' was not due to the language barrier, although
the language barrier was a challenge. It was due to my bad
decision not to meet her parents in the early stage. And dealing
with a dependent papa, was ...an obstacle I couldn't overcome.
-doug

Photo....dude....if you couldn't talk with her, that had EVERYTHING to do with your failure. If you could have spoken to her, she could have told you the importance of meeting her parents.  Just be glad it did not work out.  In the words of KenC, "Wedded Strangers" does not hack it.

My girl speaks very good English.  In the dating process, I did meet some girls with no English.  I was smart enough to run, run, run!

Guys, if you are choosing in advance the girls you will meet in the FSU-- mark out the girls who do not speak English.  Culture shock and adjustment to a new country is bad enough for a girl who speaks English. You DON'T want to marry a girl, within 90 days, who does not speak English.  If you do, you won't be wedded strangers very long. You'll be divorced...  That's my honest opinion, and yes, it's just an opinion.  Some may point to exceptions...but that is what they are....exceptions.

Find a girl who speaks English....and even then....the odds are against you.

[Infantryman]

Thanks for the welcome, Scott.  She lives in Sumy.

John

[Sohkay]

Infantryman,
Take your « Reply #178 on: Today at 07:38:12 PM » and start a new message thread in the "Starting Out" division.
Sohkay

[Infantryman]

Infantryman,
Take your « Reply #178 on: Today at 07:38:12 PM » and start a new message thread in the "Starting Out" division.
Sohkay

Will do.  Thanks!

[philb]

El Rock,

Just noticed your quip from April 12. That story was not a myth. It really happended. Dan, KenC, PhilB, Jack or others who were around PL in the early 2000s can verify the story. The man, who was a member of PL, was criticised for his methodology. He was called crazy and fool. But several years after he brought his wife to the States they were stilll married and happy.
I do not recall the story ever being declared to have been a hoax on the PL board FWIW.
 

Yeah, I just caught this too. I remember the situation well and it is far from a myth.  Wonder what ever happened to them....

[Daveman]

In the words of KenC, "Wedded Strangers" does not hack it.

My girl speaks very good English.  In the dating process, I did meet some girls with no English.  I was smart enough to run, run, run!

I wouldn't say for everyone to RUN RUN RUN.. but I would absolutely say SLOW SLOW SLOW SLOW.  A girl who cannot speak your language will put new hurdles into it for sure.  Communication is very slow and deliberate, slooooooooooooow aaaaaannnnnnnnddddddd you get the idea. It will take much patience to discuss even the most simplistic topics because everything will be repeated again and again, said in different ways, and even then sometimes leading to complete frustration.

It *can* be a situation which will bring you very close together because you are sharing and defeating a common problem together, but, it can also be one hell of a pain in the rear.  Electronic translators can get through some things, and can be invaluable in some situations, but don't get caught up in whirlwind because that can lead to disaster.

Dave

[TwoBitBandit]

Guys, if you are choosing in advance the girls you will meet in the FSU-- mark out the girls who do not speak English.  Culture shock and adjustment to a new country is bad enough for a girl who speaks English. You DON'T want to marry a girl, within 90 days, who does not speak English.  If you do, you won't be wedded strangers very long. You'll be divorced...  That's my honest opinion, and yes, it's just an opinion.  Some may point to exceptions...but that is what they are....exceptions.

That's great advice.

Leave the non-English-speaking RW all to me, I can speak Russian and I'm happy to take them off your hands. 

[Vaughn]

TwoBit, I cannot count how many good Russian ladies I've known
passed by because of their weak English. I agree, they deserve
guys willing to speak their language. We're in the minority -
but it's a great one of which to be part.

Vaughn

[Simoni]

That's great advice.

Leave the non-English-speaking RW all to me, I can speak Russian and I'm happy to take them off your hands. 

I agree....100%.  If you speak Russian, you are in a much stronger position...the whole field is in play for you.

But it does not change my point for the non-Russian speaking guys....DON'T get engaged to a stranger. 

[Daveman]

But it does not change my point for the non-Russian speaking guys....DON'T get engaged to a stranger. 

Nothing to add... just thought it should be repeated...

[supranatural]

My .02, when I started to correspond with my wife she did not know more than 2 words of English.  I always had an interpretor and I started to study some Russian as well...my first trip I made sure that at least 8-12 hours a day we had an interpretor and it was vital for us to discuss how we felt about life and many other subjects.  Once I was reasonably sure I wanted to be with her I hired the translator (who was an English teacher as well) to give her daily lessons for 4 months before the K-1 was approved.  By the time she got here we were able to communicate well, of course there were some moments where we had to use the dictionary but the English lessons were an enormous help and we rarely ran into the situation where we could not express our thoughts.  Over the course of our 5 year marriage her English advanced substantially to the point where it is far superior to many women I've met who've been here years longer than she has and she uses many unique American phrases perfectly - I'd say she is very fluent in English.  She has told me that when she speaks English she also thinks in English which is a significant yardstick for measuring proficiency in languages.  However, this time around (we are in the process of divorce as I write this) I will probably not pursue a relationship with someone who has no English skills again - I think I lucked out with my (soon to be) ex-wife who either had a talent for language or I was very patient with her when she got here - not sure which it was...this time around I am also studying Russian a lot more than last time - I realize now that I also had the perfect opportunity to expand my Russian with my wife but I was foolish enough not to.

I absolutely agree that there needs to be some common language/ground for communication or the relationship will be a very rocky, if not short lived, one.

[Sohkay]

supra,
You wrote, "...this time around I am also studying Russian a lot more than last time..."

Sounds like you're going back for round 2?

If so, why again?

Sohkay

[supranatural]

Sohkay, although I've touched on this on a couple of other posts, I have to preface this by agreeing with jb and a few others that IMHO RW are not for everyone...that said, my RW wife had qualities that are difficult to find here in this day and age.  I've met quite a few RW during the years of our marriage and the majority had a similar combination of femininity, strength, intelligence and culture that I love, but also tempered with a fiery temper and stubborness as well...a combination that I am very taken with.  I find the culture and history fascinating even though I was possibly the worst history student my school's Honors program had ever seen. To put it simply, I've acquired a taste for "Russian cuisine."

[Sohkay]

supra,
You wrote, 'To put it simply, I've acquired a taste for "Russian cuisine." '

Well put!

Your post gives me an idea.

Dan,
What about adding a subsection to the board, "Divorcing/Divorced". While I realize it's a somewhat distasteful subject, it is very much a reflection of reality. It could be a section where guys going through this could go for support/ideas/hope, and guys just embarking on this adventure could go for education and reality checks.

[Jumper]

a hahahahahaha!
this is always a funny "dabate"


does anyone else catch the incredible irony of even "debating" the need for a common language?

"in" a coimmon language no less ..

ahahahahahahaha

ok i'll stop now..
   
but i'm LMAO!!
(and 99% of you understand just acronyms right?)

you notice very few married guys on a optimistic side of this fence..
womnder why?

 anyway please have your "intendeds" come here and debate "in favor of " that type of situation,,?


because THAT is what they wil be dealing with daily.,.
and need to be able to do so..

the men "in favor of" these type ofsituations will only have one person with some difficulty in commincating with in thier lives, thier RW will have that furstration with almost everyone in her daily life.
its menataly draining and verey difdficult.

it CAN be overcome,, many have done so..
but please dont try to make it like its not an issue.

move to her country and see how you fair.
see if the daily grind of simply surviving in a second language atmosphere doesnt effect your relationship..

by the way, i've lived in countries long term where  i had to learn the language.. .
 and can really emphasize with the RW moving here with limited english.


while it can be done,, just be realistic.
it will be a big factor,
 and a huge hardship initially!!
it can be overcome, but closing your eyes to the difficulty it will be on both of you ,
is only going to make it even much harder than it already is.

(and yes i do realize there are exceptions to every rule, but they are afterall excaeptions)


i am very glad that my wife had a good fundamental level of english ,and from the first day here could drive to the gym, the store, or whatever and commincate effectively,make new friends,  and lead a *normal* life.

[Simoni]

you notice very few married guys on a optimistic side of this fence..
womnder why?

 anyway please have your "intendeds" come here and debate "in favor of " that type of situation,,?

...while it can be done,, just be realistic.
it will be a big factor,
 and a huge hardship initially!!
it can be overcome, but closing your eyes to the difficulty it will be on both of you ,
is only going to make it even much harder than it already is.

(and yes i do realize there are exceptions to every rule, but they are afterall excaeptions)

i am very glad that my wife had a good fundamental level of english ,and from the first day here could drive to the gym, the store, or whatever and commincate effectively,make new friends,  and lead a *normal* life.

Very true post, AJ.. VERY true!  Thanks for sharing...

[William3rd]

Hey Dan- The idea of a "divorcing" section is a decent concept. Although perhaps a "trainwreck" section would be more all-inclusive of the overall concept of failed relationships. Or "warning signs."

I would be concerned that the pollyannas wouldnt want to read the bad things. But, it would all be in one place instead of spread out.

[Bruce]

William III great idea.  I'll give the thread a start.  Perhaps others can chime in. 

[Sohkay]

I recommend just sticking with Divorced/Divorcing. It's a very specific subset. We hear about crash and burns in Starting Out and Experienced.

A divorce is more than a crash and burn.

[Markus]

I see the Rah-Rah cheerleader squad has a new member.  Once again,,, advice from someone who hasn't been there yet.

Putting together a cross cultural marriage is hard enough when you have a common language, trying to do it without a method of saying what is on your mind is extraordinarily difficult under the very best of circumstances.   Dave has somehow figured out how to tell his girlfriend when he wants sex,,, what's he gonna do when he has to talk politics or religion?  Or even,,, what color do you want to paint the bathroom walls?   I don't think you can do that with body language and hand signs.   You guys really need to get comfortable with the notion that you will need a common language before you get married.

I tried to read all the posts, but I can't read anymore without responding to jb's confidence in his "opinion." Keep in mind, I read the same bull 4 years ago when I was starting out from jb.  My 3rd wedding anniversary is coming up in July. When jb was providing his bull opinions when I was beginning, he had not even been married as long I have been married now to my wife.  I'm only 2 years behind him, yet, when he was at the 2 year mark, he had all the answers and if you disagreed with him, you were an idiot. My life with my RW has and is proving everyone of his opinions against what  I did wrong. My goal is not to disprove jb, but to alert those who are trying to beware of his thought patterns. Don't put credence into everything he says. For this post, I will change my name from TheOneWeekWonder to Cheerleader.

jb states in a previous post that you cannot "know a person well enough to marry", "if you cannot talk to them well enough (without the aid of an interpreter) to draw complex thought pictures in each other's minds." Let's see, how many divorces are there today between people who speak a common language and end up in divorce? Is it only because it's RW we are seeking that this comment is more important? Let me prove him wrong with my experience:

1) Wrote for 3-4 months
2) Called her on the phone and the only words that were understood were my name and SMS (not a word I realize)
3) Used an interpretor to talk on the phone
4) Visited her after 3-4 months of letters and phone calls
5) Used an Etaco translator in person and improvised sign language to communicate
6) Proposed during the 1st week with her and she said yes
7) Went back to Russia 1 time before marriage
Got married in July 2004 (3rd trip)
9) Went back to Russia 3 times before the visa was approved
10) Went to Russia to get wife in 2005 (7th trip)
11) Wife went to 3 semesters of English
12) Have visited Russia 2 times with wife (9 times to Russia)
13) After a long wait and much paper work, wife has Permanent Resident ID
13) Wife is in Russia today visiting family (I had to sit this one out) That's why I'm responding; I have time to do things when I'm bored.

I have skipped the relationship part in between all the above. But, Oksana and I have traveled to many many destinations in the U.S. and London and Frankfurt Internationally. Yes, we have been to Hawaii. We did get in an argument there. But, that argument didn't have an effect on our commitment. Did I say commitment? Perhaps that words sums up what it's all about.

Can a man just beginning have success with a lady who doesn't speak English? Yes, but it takes a big effort. My 3-year anniversary will be in July and what I did was the best decision of my life.

So, don't let jb's warped opinion persuade you to thinking what you are doing is wrong with respect to English speaking ability. Consider that if you took to heart what he advocates with his confidence and blunt way of communicating, you could be missing out on the love of your life. He tried to persuade me, but I thought he was full of bull words then on this subject, and today, I know he is full of it.

Mark