An AW thoughts on me, AJ, KenC, Rvwind and some of you guys

[Gator]

KenC,

You have said this before and I let it pass.  Please elaborate because I assert most men have some experience with women, although not in the category of a "ladies' man". 

What is the average age of the man in GCG scams?  Let us say 40.  And you say that there is no great discrepency in looks and ages.  A high percentage of the RW are very pretty, so that would mean the men you talk about are good looking. 

A good looking 40-yo man has plenty of opportunities for experiences with women.  And you are telling me such a man is inexperienced with women.  That describes a weirdo, a loser, a computer nerd, a perpetual wanker.  These are not average Americans but at the bottom of the dating totempole.  One gets ample experience in America in their 20s and 30s just by showing up and being normal.   I imagine even computer geeks have their little parties, but the women are not much to talk about.

In my 20 trips or so to Russia and Ukraine, I have seen several Western men on the hunt and talked with a few.  None were what I would call inexperienced with women.  Inexperienced with foreign culture - YES.  Inexperienced with RW - YES.  Inexperienced with life in general as to not know what they want or need - YES.  Most had been married such as our beloved poster child for wearing a mule's saddle - gentle Maxx.  In marriage one learns something about women, if just by osmosis and nothing more than what NOT to do next time. 

[KenC]

KenC,

You have said this before and I let it pass.  Please elaborate because I assert most men have some experience with women, although not in the category of a "ladies' man". 

What is the average age of the man in GCG scams?  Let us say 40.  And you say that there is no great discrepency in looks and ages.  A high percentage of the RW are very pretty, so that would mean the men you talk about are good looking. 

A good looking 40-yo man has plenty of opportunities for experiences with women.  And you are telling me such a man is inexperienced with women.  That describes a weirdo, a loser, a computer nerd, a perpetual wanker.  These are not average Americans but at the bottom of the dating totempole.  One gets ample experience in America in their 20s and 30s just by showing up and being normal.   I imagine even computer geeks have their little parties, but the women are not much to talk about.

In my 20 trips or so to Russia and Ukraine, I have seen several Western men on the hunt and talked with a few.  None were what I would call inexperienced with women.  Inexperienced with foreign culture - YES.  Inexperienced with RW - YES.  Inexperienced with life in general as to not know what they want or need - YES.  Most had been married such as our beloved poster child for wearing a mule's saddle - gentle Maxx.  In marriage one learns something about women, if just by osmosis and nothing more than what NOT to do next time. 

Gator,
I think the highlighted portion of your post says it all.  But let's evaluate this a little further.  You mentioned Maxx as an example of a classic mule.  Was he inexperienced with women?  After all he was married for over 20 years.  I say "yes'"  Let me explain.  I too was married for over 20 years and then divorced.  I led a pretty active life with many contacts outside of my marriage due to the business I was in.  But I didn't date anyone and remained faithful for all those years.  Once I was divorced,  I was a total babe in the woods regarding dating and "reading" women (in that way.)  Damaged from a bloody divorce, self esteem in bad shape and very needy is not the way to look for a new mate.  Yes, I was exactly where Maxx was at the time he went to Ukraine and I could have easily been sucked into a relationship with the first smokinhotkova that looked my way.  Maybe a word better than "inexperienced" is "vulnerable."

I know that the many years I spent dating AW was not for nothing.  I learned so much during that time period and was smart enough not to get married again.  By the time I went to Russia,  was a much different man than I was exiting my first marriage.  Thank God!

Of the four "mules" I know of personally here is the breakdown:
#1
He-late 20's early 30's, decent looking, not very educated and had one other romance in his life.

She-early 20's, decent looking (but not great looking), no education, from Ukrainian village, and a very active sexual past.

#2 & 3
He-early to mid 40's, decent looking, educated and successful, little or no dating experience, coming out of divorces

She-mid to late 20's, decent looking(but not great), educated but no means of support here, fairly moralistic women.

#4
He-mid to late 40's, decent looking, very successful, experienced with women but total weirdo.

She-late 20's early 30's, educated, classy, moralistic, but no means of support here.  (This woman returned to Russia)
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

I have to agree with KenC on this one.  I married when I was 22 years old and when I divorced 18 years later, all of those faithful to my wife. I was clueless about the dating scene, about single women, about where I fit in the whole picture. I was very vulnerable and not long after got into a disastrous second marriage which I was smart enough to end after less than 2 years.  I had some clue after that but I believe it took several years of very actively dating AW's before I was in a position to date an RW.  I'm not ugly, I'm not a computer nerd or a loser.  I do wank occasionally but not perpetually, and I was definitely not at the bottom of the dating pool, but if I had tried to find a RW back then, I would have been eaten alive.

[Gator]

KenC,

With your criteria, I too was inexperienced.  I dated for only 15 months before heading across the water to the Steppes.  In fact my dating experience was limited – just two women and they both left me.  As I now write it, it sounds as pitiful as a C&W song.   

I even chased a RW 30+ years younger than me and incredibly beautiful.  From Moscow too!  So why did I not get scammed?  Actually I am not a good example because I never married a RW, and I had free time and above average money to support a thorough comparative analysis of many prospects and a detailed analysis of one.

Please do not consider that I am debating you; I have no alternative position.  I simply am not satisfied with “inexperience” as an answer.  Scott agrees with you, and perhaps others will as well.  However, in my mind something is at work here, and it is much more than “inexperience”.   Nor do I think luck is the answer. 

And your four examples suggest other factors.

No. 1 – Trashy woman perhaps considering no education and the sex.  Many of those in the FSU, yet their sense of fashion, lack of intelligence and other characteristics give them away.  DON’T MARRY SLUTS.

No. 2 & 3 – Inexplicable.   You wonder where these women go.  For a while, life has to be rather difficult, and only better if they had left a very desperate life.  DON’T MARRY A DESPERATE WOMAN.

N0. 4 – “Weirdo” marries “classy”.  That sounds like an “out of his league” reach.  Money does not make one socially mainstream.  She perhaps was enticed by the money in a weak moment.  DON’T THINK THAT MONEY WILL MAKE YOUR WIFE HAPPY.

I think if each of these couples spent more time together, the incompatibilities and motivations would have surfaced.  Could that be the answer – more time together to know your woman and how the two of you relate? 

Or is it also, know yourself?  There is much more involved than experience.  How about common sense?  Common sense is not common.

Good night!

[jb]

No. 1 – Trashy woman perhaps considering no education and the sex.  Many of those in the FSU, yet their sense of fashion, lack of intelligence and other characteristics give them away.  DON’T MARRY SLUTS.

I have said this very thing a few dozen times and always get flack for having said something bad about someone about on the same level as a Wal-Mart checkout clerk.  I just don't understand why men can't get it through their heads that Russia and Ukraine have an abundance of low class people just like we have here at home.  Why would a man fly 10,000 miles to date a slut?  He can find plenty of women just like that in any Arkansas trailer park.

[KenC]

Gator,
You wrote:

I think if each of these couples spent more time together, the incompatibilities and motivations would have surfaced.  Could that be the answer – more time together to know your woman and how the two of you relate? 

Or is it also, know yourself?  There is much more involved than experience.  How about common sense?  Common sense is not common.

"Time" is definitely a factor.  (Tell that to a one week wonder!)  I think that time is the one factor that is most abused in this process.  There are so many excuses for not taking the time to get to know each other properly that it is almost fruitless to point it out any more.  It is hopeless to point out all the heartache and expense of making a too hasty decision can cause.  They have to learn it the hard way.
KenC

[KenC]

I have said this very thing a few dozen times and always get flack for having said something bad about someone about on the same level as a Wal-Mart checkout clerk.  I just don't understand why men can't get it through their heads that Russia and Ukraine have an abundance of low class people just like we have here at home.  Why would a man fly 10,000 miles to date a slut?  He can find plenty of women just like that in any Arkansas trailer park.

jb,
I always wonder how the guys justify the fact that the woman jumps into the sack with them within mins of meeting sometimes.  Do they honestly think that they are such a catch that the woman throws out all her morals just for them?  More likely she had no morals to begin with.
KenC

[jb]

KenC,

You are, of course, exactly right.  The trick is to get the guy measured for a mule suit as quickly as possible.  If a week of good sex is the price to pay, many of these trashy, low morals women are more than willing to pony up the sex.  I often suspect the men who fall into this trap probably haven't been with too many women in their lifetimes and suddenly are thinking that they have died and gone to heaven.  In the military we used to say those men who suddenly "went native" overseas had fallen into the honey trap.

[Admin]

jb,
I always wonder how the guys justify the fact that the woman jumps into the sack with them within mins of meeting sometimes.  Do they honestly think that they are such a catch that the woman throws out all her morals just for them?  More likely she had no morals to begin with.
KenC

Ken,

Not to dredge up TOO much ancient history - but do you recall that I managed to prompt a 5-year (and still ongoing) hissyfit with a comment almost exactly like yours?

Slightly off-topic, I know - but it just struck me as funny that something so obvious and fundamental would have evoked the reaction it did. Still shaking my head.

Cheers!

- Dan

[William3rd]

I join with jb and kenc. The romance tour bs was that the time factor was compressed so that the limited time meant that love blossomed quicker in the limited growing season. SO that meant that morality didnt count. . . . .

But then, relationships didnt count either for the most part.

[I/O]

KenC,

You are, of course, exactly right.  The trick is to get the guy measured for a mule suit as quickly as possible.  If a week of good sex is the price to pay, many of these trashy, low morals women are more than willing to pony up the sex.  I often suspect the men who fall into this trap probably haven't been with too many women in their lifetimes and suddenly are thinking that they have died and gone to heaven.  In the military we used to say those men who suddenly "went native" overseas had fallen into the honey trap.

The irony is, they go in search of "Feline" and ultimately arrive home with "Canine" and then wonder why they get bitten.

I/O

[jb]

William,

Substitute Crotalus for Canine, and you might be onto something.   

[KenC]

Ken,

Not to dredge up TOO much ancient history - but do you recall that I managed to prompt a 5-year (and still ongoing) hissyfit with a comment almost exactly like yours?

Slightly off-topic, I know - but it just struck me as funny that something so obvious and fundamental would have evoked the reaction it did. Still shaking my head.

Cheers!

- Dan

Dan,
Believe me when I say I was thinking about exactly that incident when I wrote my post!
KenC

[Mamma D]

KenC,

You are, of course, exactly right.  The trick is to get the guy measured for a mule suit as quickly as possible.  If a week of good sex is the price to pay, many of these trashy, low morals women are more than willing to pony up the sex.  I often suspect the men who fall into this trap probably haven't been with too many women in their lifetimes and suddenly are thinking that they have died and gone to heaven.  In the military we used to say those men who suddenly "went native" overseas had fallen into the honey trap.

BUT......what does this say about the man, who would accept this type of behavior?

[KenC]

BUT......what does this say about the man, who would accept this type of behavior?

Momma D,
Excellent point!  I know some guys think with their little head, but is that the kind of woman you want to marry?  I know I was very much relieved when my Lena rebuffed my (potential) advances on my first trip to meet her.  I thought, wow, what a woman and what great morals too!   Her character made her even more desirable to me.
KenC

[Maxx2]

You mentioned Maxx as an example of a classic mule.  Was he inexperienced with women?  After all he was married for over 20 years.  I say "yes'"  Let me explain.  I too was married for over 20 years and then divorced.  I led a pretty active life with many contacts outside of my marriage due to the business I was in.  But I didn't date anyone and remained faithful for all those years.  Once I was divorced,  I was a total babe in the woods regarding dating and "reading" women (in that way.)  Damaged from a bloody divorce, self esteem in bad shape and very needy is not the way to look for a new mate.  Yes, I was exactly where Maxx was at the time he went to Ukraine and I could have easily been sucked into a relationship with the first smokinhotkova that looked my way.  Maybe a word better than "inexperienced" is "vulnerable."

The only correction I can add to that was
1) She was from Russia
2) My inexperience was much worse that KenC imagined.

I was raised in a high control religion, Jehovah's Witnesses which I am no longer part of. Long story. This religion puts pressure on it's members to only associate amongst themselves. So I didn't have any "Worldly" (it's a bad word for them) friends as is typical with most Jehovah's Witnesses. Also Jehovah's witnesses rarely talk about their "imperfections" with each other as it could lessen their image in the eyes of the congregation. Divorce is rare and nobody talks about marital problems. Also add in that I work alone with only brief contact a few times a week with my clients. So I had a very sheltered existence.

Maxx

[Gator]

Okay Maxx, you are very inexperienced with probing the minds of women.  However, from your writings and our phone conversations, you are not an idiot.

[Gator]

I have just now attempted to define the reason for failure with a RW.  I started, deleted my sentences, made another start, again deleted.  I can not express it. 

After thinking about this some more, my conclusion is ....

 
              (drum roll please).....



there are 100 different ways to screw this up. 

That, however, is not a reason to stay home.   Take a trip and meet these fascinating women.   It may very well change your life in profound and positive ways.

[Vaughn]

there are 100 different ways to screw this up. 

No. 1 on the list: Get your own house in order before you
even begin to entertain the adventure....

[andrewfi]

Gator, thanks for coming up with information that demonstrates that I was, once again NOT writing without foundation.

Next, Billy, you really, really don't get it do you. You are taking a simple factually correct point and taking it as an insult against your chosen home. In doing so you render yourself unable to understand the point being made. Sad, very sad. Now, to help your economic and poitical geography; Estonia is not a Nordic country, it is generally regarded as being one of the three Baltic States. You can read up on the other two.
My current abode and native country are simply not germane althugh I note that you seem for some misguided reason to think they are. NB, whilst you obviously carry baggage from your country of origin, as do we all, I see no point in dredging it up or even referring to your homeland. It is not a part of the discussion.
Anyhow, thanks for demonstrating, once again that your bumbling through Google only goes to support the the points I was making.

For the hard of thinking. I was referring to the differences in expectation and opportunity and how they are perceived by your 'loved ones', I fully understand that your great country has opportunity greater than the places from which your mail order brides are sourced, it is the reason for the issues noted upthread. All that the pointless bashing of gums and vain attempts at point scoring do is underline that many of you simply do not have the equipment to understand the issues.

I have no problem agreeing with those who note, accurately, that the gender gap in the US is decreasing, by most measures. But surely it is no great leap of cognition to then understand that this simply makes it less reasonable to expect your inamorata to stick to a choice/committment made to herself, or to you when she finds a large difference in circumstances between her current circumstances and expectations and the new reality of her life in the US?

Frankly, it matters not one whit, to me, the relative rankings of different countries in gender rankings. The point simply is that there IS a difference and that managing the expectations of the woman with whom you, ostensibly, seek to spend the rest of your life is one of your responsibilities.

The strange and somewhat saddening result of a thread like this is that one comes to better understand the point of view of people such as the writer of the article cited at the top of the thread. There are some who quite obviously DO get it and some who do not. The do nots demonstrated in various forms.
We have the 'it does not matter' chumps. The 'they are all feminazis' charlies and the deflecting purblind eejits.
Some posters here, whilst I may well not agree with everything they write, or have done, are living proof that they did and do 'get it'. Their marriages will likely last far longer than those who rail against me over irrelevancies!

[BillyB]

Next, Billy, you really, really don't get it do you. You are taking a simple factually correct point and taking it as an insult against your chosen home. In doing so you render yourself unable to understand the point being made. Sad, very sad. Now, to help your economic and poitical geography; Estonia is not a Nordic country, it is generally regarded as being one of the three Baltic States. You can read up on the other two.

Andrew, I don't get it? Where did I say Estonia is a Nordic country? I said America is behind 60% of the Nordic countries and ahead of 40%. To get those percentages out of all the countries I listed there would need to be 5 Nordic countries. The other countries I listed were your backward nations, your birthplace and your choice of residence. One could not include one, some or all of those other nations to the 5 Nordic countries to think about getting a 60/40 percentage combination. Learn to read please. It is YOU who included Estonia with the Nordic countries when reading my post, not me.

Anyhow, thanks for demonstrating, once again that your bumbling through Google only goes to support the the points I was making.

Only Andrew could look at those statistics and say "America is way behind Nordic countries" ??? Next time Andrew, you should use google and learn on your own instead of believing what your media is feeding you.

[TigerPaws]

mspanky,
That is why you had better have more going for you than just a finaincial advantage over RM!  It is one thing to bring over a Russan beauty, quite another thing to keep her.
KenC

KenC,

 I found the perfect way to keep a RW, suggest that you will throw her over board somwhere far from land with more chain than she can swim with. Ok while I have never suggested this to my wife we have both thought about using our daughter as shark bait from time to time

 

[ScottinCrimea]

It's all clear to me now.  Those that agree with andrewfin are the ones who get it and those who disagree with hiim are the ones who doh't get it, by his own definition.  How's that for pompous?  I guess I'm on the "don't get it" list.  Reminds me of what my teehagers used to whine when I didn't agree with them, "but you don't understand!"

[catzenmouse]

Ding! Ding! Ding! You win the "I get it!" prize of the week.  I refer to it as the "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bull$hit" posting style. But I really do like your teenager analogy. Very appropriate.

Ken

It's all clear to me now.  Those that agree with andrewfin are the ones who get it and those who disagree with hiim are the ones who doh't get it, by his own definition.  How's that for pompous?  I guess I'm on the "don't get it" list.  Reminds me of what my teehagers used to whine when I didn't agree with them, "but you don't understand!"

[catzenmouse]

Ok while I have never suggested this to my wife we have both thought about using our daughter as shark bait from time to time

TigerPaws,

 We've got a 6 year old that we can loan you for bait...

Ken