The Age "Old" Debate.

[Elen]

Elen,
Age gap may indeed be a major factor at a later date. It may indeed present an insurmountable problem 20 years from now.

 Well at last one of you did admit that As for 20 years from now then it depends on how old was groom at a start For someones it could happen much early tan 20 years from now

That being said, what could a woman 15 years older than me bring to the table?  Wisdom, calmness, a more relaxed demeanor, a more understanding approach to life.

What she cannot bring, is a child.  I want to find my life partner, the woman with whom I can share my soul, but also can bring a new life into this world.  I raised two step children in my previous marriage, but, although I will love them forever, I still wish to have my own flesh and blood child.  I want to look into the loving eyes of my wife and see her smile as I feel the little kicks inside her tummy.  Well, enough of that, you get the idea.

Yes I got an idea It's one of typical answers I heard from males who were seaking for woman with big ( in my viewpoint) age difference - a desire to have a child.  ( second one was that foggy babling a-ka "ages don't matter for me and I have not idea how it happens that I like a magnit attract hot Rusian girls Russia tradition I guees""    And it was hard for them to find a mate even here in poor Russia if those males were 50+ because for many women ages do matter as well.

Anyway good luck ( but dreams of marriage lasted for 20 years are some "optimistic" though  )

[KenC]

What I'd like to dig out of those with greater experience is how they view the most benificial attributes they brought to the relationship with their lady so that a few of us might be able to pick up on a few clues to hopefully help us succeed long term. 

I think jb touched on the key ingredient for success:love.  Without a strong real love, a marriage with a large age gap will inevitably fail.  But there are other attributes that come into play too.

The older man has to be very secure in himself.  The slightest amount of insecurity would drive him over the edge with jealousy or suspicion with regard to his much younger wife.  There will always be men that will be taking a run at a young beautiful woman no matter if she is married or not.  The slightest lack of confidence would doom such a marriage.

The younger woman has to have a general respect for her elders.  My wife Lena had many older role models for which she had great respect.  The people that she had the greatest respect for were all much older than herself.  In many ways she was as comfortable or even more comfortable in the company of older people than her peers.

The ability to compromise is most important in an age gap marriage.  The younger woman will have to concede that her older husband will not be interested in many things she is interested in. The older man will have to also compromise that there will be things that his younger wife will not find interesting.  In "compromising", I mean that there will be some areas of the marriage where the couple will do things on their own individually. (Which I happen to think is healthy in any marriage.)

Patience is a virtue the older man must have in great quantities.  He has to be able to sit back and not allow his experience to make small of his youthful wife's follies.  Even though he may have "been there, done that", he has to be able to allow her to work her way through her own experiences.  This is more difficult than you can ever imagine.

I cannot stress how important a true strong love is to make the age gap marriage work though.  If the main reason for the marriage is her youth and his financial status, it just won't work in the long run because over time both become numb to those traits.  Over time, the man becomes accustomed to her youthfulness and yes, even her beauty just as she becomes comfortable in her new financial status.  The "awe" of both these categories does not last very long at all.  When the excitement wears off, as it inevitably will, you both will be faced with just who the two of you are as people, and without love for each other, you would have nothing.
KenC

[Daveman]

Well at last one of you did admit that As for 20 years from now then it depends on how old was groom at a start For someones it could happen much early tan 20 years from now

I don't think anyone denied that age could eventually become a factor. Certainly it could.  I know it is something I have contemplated many times.  It simply wasn't the original question posed in the thread.  I could also get smacked by a truck while riding the bike a week after she arrives and the whole discussion become completely irrelevant.  Life itself is a gamble. We can only live it and make our best attempts to make dreams come true.

Yes I got an idea It's one of typical answers I heard from males who were seaking for woman with big ( in my viewpoint) age difference - a desire to have a child.  And it was hard for them to find a mate even here in poor Russia if those males were 50+ because for many women ages do matter as well.

Anyway good luck ( but dreams of marriage lasted for 20 years are some "optimistic" though  )

Well, I can't speak for others, but simply because an answer is typical certainly doesn't make the information therein invalid. Over the last year and a half, I have had correspondence with literally hundreds of different FSU women who claimed to be interested in me, knowing my age is over 40.  They can't all have nefarious ulterior motives, can they? I mean, just from the numbers, some would have genuine interest in *me*, would they not?

So, I'll ask you this. Why would a Russian woman be interested in an older man (the two who are discussing this with you are me, age 44, and I/O, age 41 according to his profile), take the time to learn our language, want to go through the complete upheaval of migrating to a different country, spend hours upon hours writing letters, communicating with us via phone, internet, etc, if there were not genuine feelings on her part?  I think that's quite a bit of a steep hill to climb just to improve her situation and find a young lover in a new country.  She could more easily have an affair with a rich married Russian man to improve her situation and not have all the hassles, could she not?  It's a serious question, not flame bait.

I don't believe that all Russian women who do this simply want to better their living environment because too many of them do "wake up" and return home within the first 90 days. What makes the others stay? There are many success stories, so why do those succeed?

Poor Russia? hardly, there are now more millionaires per capita in Russia than anywhere in the world. 

If 20 years is overly optimistic, well at least I'll get maybe ten then before she runs off to the young lover    I can deal with that.  Like I said, life's a gamble anyway.

Thanks for the good wishes. In life, we all need a bit of luck here and there. 

[jb]

Dave,

I hate to shoot holes in your post because it is generally on track, however:

Poor Russia? hardly, there are now more millionaires per capita in Russia than anywhere in the world.

This is not quite true, Moscow has it's share of wealthly men, but overall, a ordinary Russian's lifestyle and standard of living is so far behind the rest of the world it boggles the mind.  And lest we forget, even in Moscow, the disparity between the rich and the not rich, is still immense.  It is true that we are beginning to see an emerging middle class, but by our standards even that ranks well below what would be poverty levels in the West.   

There is no livable retirement system for the aged, once a person is too old to work they exist on the charity of their family.  Health care for the masses, while technically free,,, is not.  If you get sick in Russia and you are over the age of 60, male or female, you are simply given a bed and minimal care until you die.  Unless, of course, your family has money to pay for a decent doctor there will be no heroic efforts made to extend your life.   Even that will be shoddy by most western standards.

I could go on and on with many more examples of the comparisons but I think you get the drift, there are ample reasons why many young women see immigration through marriage as their best and only chance for a better life than their mothers and grandmothers had.

[Gator]

WHAT IS I/O ASKING?

I/O should have written his question on page one in bold.  I believe he wants men who have experience with much younger women to discuss:   “beneficial attributes that they brought to the relationship.”

I/O has decided to marry a woman 17 years younger.   He does not wish to discuss whether such is appropriate.  Besides, age gap discussions always end up with the man rationalizing everything negative that is pointed out to him.    I/O is committed and enough said.   

I/O seems to recognize that age disparity does create some special obstacles.  He is committed to his relationship and he wants to make his marriage a happy one.  In his words, he wants to learn a “…few clues to hopefully help us succeed long term.”

KENC'S EXPERIENCE

KenC certainly has experience and success with such a marriage, and he has just given his ideas for what it takes to make it work.   I find KenC’s relationship remarkable not just because of the age difference but also because the two do not have the glue of children. 

In summary, KenC said a man needs confidence, ability to compromise, patience, and feelings of true love.  Thanks, I agree with you; however, those are needed in any healthy marriage.  I suppose you are saying that a man must possess these qualities abundantly and at the start. 

MY EXPERIENCE

Although my experience and success do not equal KenC’s, I have some. Basically, I believe life will be grand if there is true love and the man is helping his woman meet her goals and she his. 

An older man should use his wisdom to help his young woman define her life goals.  This takes time, and is difficult to do quickly because the RW can not yet grasp her future world.  Also, women change, particularly younger women.

ONE LONG EXPERIENCE WITH LATE 20s RW

Five years ago I met a 27-yo Muscovite, who eventually became my fiancée.  Over time she formulated the following goals:

-   Family relations - she has two children and wanted a man who could be a father (but no new children which seemed to be the goal of many 40-45 year old men),
-   Financial security (not necessarily wealth) – she had survived the economic downturns and did not wish to revisit them.
-   Friendship – more than having fun and sharing common interests such as travel adventure, etc.; she wanted open and honest and forthright communication, someone who understood her. 
-   Learning wisdom (not information which she could read anywhere) – she has a very curious and intelligent mind.
-   Partnership – she wanted equality and not to be compartmentalized as a wife.
-   Accomplish something professionally fulfilling with her life.

These goals were mostly in alignment with my own.  Although we became true friends, our relationship failed after 3 ½ wonderful years, K-1, etc.  Her goal to work was incompatible with my goals, although there was room for compromise which we would have done IF there was true love, which in my opinion was absent. Today, 1 ½ years and a few good men after our breakup, she still wants to marry me.  However, after her children leave the nest in 10 or so years, I feel I would be holding her back.

40-YO RW 

I have met about ten RW in their 40s.  Most share some things in common.  They are fairly independent because many have been surviving without a husband or his financial support for several years.  They have an organized life focusing on a single parent family.   In many regards they do not differ much from AW, except that AW tend to have children later in life and at 40 are still carpooling.  As with their American sisters, the smart 40-yo RW are self-assured and could care less what others think. 

When children approach adulthood, women start thinking more about themselves and about the long term.  Most RW in their 40s have felt financial instability and have some concern about their future, probably more than a 20 yo who has not suffered through the economic downturns of the 1990s.

So 40 yo RW are interested in foreign men for purposes of marriage and security and also for their upcoming golden years.  Yes, the 40s are golden years for women in America.

I am considering marriage to a soon-to-be 42-yo fantastic woman (my Cossack or Cosashka).  She is much more Russian than my Muscovite  ex-fiancée (e. g., the 42 yo struggles with  the concept of partnership).  However, she has accomplished much in her life and is not interested in working (yet said she would gladly work if we needed the money).  She is learning the art and benefits and joy of win-win compromise.  I have high hopes so far, very high.

She will require the attributes that KenC listed.  There will be more.  Unlike my Muscovite, who is more American than Russian, the Cossack will require much time in her adjustment period and more attention afterwards.  This reflects her inadequate English skills plus her personality.  The Cossack is more like a dog and will demand attention, not pampering, but playtime.  I love it.

[Daveman]

jb,

I agree with you completely.  I made a similar post about Ukraine in one of the other threads not long ago.  My comment about millionaires was more of friendly play because Russia is not poor, but many/most of her people indeed are compared to the middle class standards in most western countries.  It similar to Ukraine with the lack of a true middle class along with the cash based have and have not system - with most falling into the latter category.  Hopefully that will change over time, but your point is definitely well taken.

[KenC]

In summary, KenC said a man needs confidence, ability to compromise, patience, and feelings of true love.  Thanks, I agree with you; however, those are needed in any healthy marriage.  I suppose you are saying that a man must possess these qualities abundantly and at the start

. 
 Gator,
I was married for over 20 years to an AW that was 2 years younger and even though these attributes were necessary, the need seems to be magnified when the woman is significantly younger.  In my first marriage many of these traits were being learned through life's experiences that we were both going through simultaneously.  Where as in my current marriage, I am more of an observer in watching Lena go through her experiences.  That is where the patience is really tested along with the compromising abilities.  It is very difficult to compromise when you have already experienced something the other has not.

But most important is the confidence needed to be able to have a much younger wife.  As you said, this is a trait that is helpful in any marriage, but in an age gap marriage it is critical.  You have to believe you deserve such a wife or you will be toast!  I never saw confidence as being that necessary in my first marriage to be honest.

The true love part may also be applicable to any marriage's success but in an age gap marriage it truly is the glue that holds it all together.  Love is the motivation that allows the both of you to work your butts off in oeder to make it work.  And it does take extra effort on both parties.
KenC

[I/O]

As for my bullsh$$ then I just tried to find out an answer at eternal question why you males such like to proclamate that ages are "nothing" for marriage but somehow refuse to even "imagine" situation with roles in other order.

Though you did answer and now all is clear without all that fog posted here why you looked for such age difference - deliberately as I got it  - a wish to have children (at your 50s   and not attractive in any numbers of ways older women. Yeah for sure ages means nothing in that matter

As for me to get over something because it was "norm"  than you should not forget that cheating on old husbands with young lovers were pretty norm for centuries as well Live with it.  

Elen: You are exactly right, young women have cheated on older men for centuries and it is one of the realities I would (If possible) like to avoid.

For the record, I in fact did very seriously consider marriage to a lady who is 17 years older than me.  We are very close friends but always stopped short of becoming lovers as we both knew there would be and could be no turning back once we crossed that line.  Nevertheless, we did discuss the possability logically and very very seriously over quite a long period of time. 

Yes age is very much an issue and I for one have long recognised that.  I think the fact that I ask a few questions stands testimony to that.  BTW I have no intention of having children when I am in my 50's.  I don't have to consider that.  Honestly if I was faced with that question, I don't know what I would do. 

Dave: It took a while but we did drag these experienced guys out of their foxholes eventually. BTW yes 41 is correct, but unfortunately not for much longer. 

JB: I in no way want to defer away from your points regarding reasons young women may want to relocate, but I think Dave does raise a very significant point about the time dedication some (Maybe only a few) are prepared to put into this in order to develop a relationship.  The key is the ones (Both men and women) who are prepared to devote that time to the early development stage.  How much time is enough time? No answer is correct, but one thing I do know is much time is never too much time.

With regard to the developing middle class in Russia and the isolated wealth factor.  Frankly I don't see things changing that dramatically any time soon if at all.  Russia has followed much the same pattern for as far back as one looks.  Herzen and others restled with this a couple of hundred years ago.  That is in summary Russia had vast sums of money, tightly held in the hands of a few people, fiercely protected by a corrupt political system which was in turn propped up by those few very wealthy people, whilst the general distribution to the masses was very limited and as such the majority lived far below acceptable standards.  Nothing has changed in the last how many years apart from the administrations.

Gator: Yep...!!! Is always intersting to slip the real question in the middle to see who really reads and picks up on it.  Very naughty habit of mine. 

KenC: Spot on with your comment IMO that each very much need to have their own interests apart from the common interests of the couple.  In retrospect one of the BIG mistakes my former wife and myself made early on was to try to do too many things together.  Many will argue against that concept, but for me at least and also my fiance' we are both people who need those seperate interests.  To my mind it is a matter of having the love/trust/confidence to handle the realities of that and that is only developed with LOTS OF TIME. One trip and a K-1 won't cut it.

I/O

[jb]

I would never disagree about the investment of time and the patience issue.   If anything, I would have to say the lack of time or long term patience is the number one killer of marriages.  That probably applies equally to domestic as well as foreign born wives.  I will also go so far as to say, from experience, the need to invest time and patience doesn't end in a year, not even after the second or third year does this need go away.  Further, I'm pretty sure the age gap issue is not at work here.  I'm sitting here with 5 years of marriage under my belt, to a woman who is not 20+ years my junior, and she still has me pulling at my hair at times. 

There are some things which cannot be explained to a RW just once and she'll get a handle on it, regardless of her age.  Our system of personal finances being but one such item that you will have to have the patience to explain things over and over and over again, and then in a years time be prepared to explain it all again in even greater detail.  There are things we take for granted, like;  auto insurance, home insurance, life insurance, medical insurance, IRAs, 401K retirement accounts, income taxes, home equity, credit cards, interest rates, family budgets, balancing check books, etc., these things are so totally foreign to the Russian woman it begs the question; "WTF planet are you from?".

A man with a short temper needs to look somewhere else for a bride because marriage to a RW will turn him into a mental wreck in six months flat.

[Gator]

And JB's wife is highly intelligent - a university professor.

I notice the same with the RW I am dating now, and it will take a long, long time to teach her. 

For some unknown reason, my ex-fiancee did not have this problem with money management. Then again, she has several personality aspects that I now realize are not Russian.

[Daveman]

Gator, JB, KenC, Patrick, and even Elen,

Thank you for your sincere input here.  Just knowing you have success here gives me more than hope, but also even steadfastness (or muleheadedness, depending on your perspective I suppose).  I will read and re-read your responses and hopefully you will not mind some elaborative questions in some places if necessary?

Thanks again,
Dave

[jb]

Gator,

Yes, Etna is highly intelligent, with MS degrees in physics and applied math, she's hard to fool with an algebra problem.

However, and maybe I'm just not explaining it correctly, she has great difficulty wrapping her mind around certain aspects of our culture.  Shopping is not one of those things, I think she came straight from the womb with a PhD in shopping, but other things just bounce off her head like it was made of granite.

She also is bad when too many choices are presented to her.  For example, we are currently upgrading the cabinets and countertops in our kitchen, and the myriad selection of styles, colors, and woods just blows some fuses for her.  I get frustrated because I can see where she is going with her choices, (and I approve, she has good taste), but she waffles so much.  We leave the store having made a decision and I think things are set.  I'm ready to call the contractor and write the check.  Then she thinks about something for a few hours and, BLAM~!, we are suddenly back at square one.  Drives me nuts.  Sometimes I wish we were back in Russia where you go to the cabinet maker and there is one style of cabinet, in one color, and he makes everything out of birch.  Life would be more simple that way.

[Elen]

Gator, JB, KenC, Patrick, and even Elen,

 You asked me about "western hypocrisy?  Well  that "EVEN Elen" of yours is one of what I call like that  I'm more fine with "idiot" I got here than with a "thank" in a set with "even Elen" 

[BC]

You asked me about "western hypocrisy?  Well  that "EVEN Elen" of yours is one of what I call like that  I'm more fine with "idiot" I got here than with a "thank" in a set with "even Elen" 

Sounds exactly like something my wife would say...

Get used to it guys!

[Daveman]

You asked me about "western hypocrisy?  Well  that "EVEN Elen" of yours is one of what I call like that  I'm more fine with "idiot" I got here than with a "thank" in a set with "even Elen" 

Elen,

I sincerely address what you said there because I think it's important. Miscommunication between men and women of our cultures begin with how we take what each other says and is the origin of many misunderstandings which can lead to arguments or ill feelings.

Nothing in my "thank you" is hypocrisy in the least.  You are good with English, but perhaps there is an ambiguity to the language which you don't yet fathom, which is understandable, just as there are nuances in the Russian language that I could not begin to understand (or perhaps enough people here have called you an idiot to where you now think very suspiciously of everyone, or maybe Russian girls are just suspicious by nature).  Language and culture combine in many ways to create mannerisms that can be confusing to others not indigenous to that culture.  This can occur even with peoples who speak the same language.  England and America are often referred to as "Two countries separated by a common language" because while we both speak "English" there are cultural differences which are sometimes confusing and can even be insulting to each other when intentions are not fully understood.

Hypocrisy would be the result of 'intent', not simply the words.  Hypocrisy is superficially espousing or preaching one idea while in reality practicing another.  I think you took the words as 'sarcasm', which they were not, though when I think about it, I CAN see how you might think that.  So, for you to think this to have been hypocrisy, you would have to think I said "Thank you" but really I am thinking "idiot".  We also call that "two faced". 

You were placed as "and even Elen" because of this simple reason -- These gentlemen directly answered the question I/O posted, and while you didn't answer the question directly, your thoughts and additions were appreciated *by me* as interesting and thought provoking, though maybe not appreciated by everyone in the thread. "EVEN" emphasizes that the reason for the appreciation is for a different reason, or different in some way than the others.  I thought this was obvious, but that's a good example of how things can be intended one way, but taken another.  Idiot? not even close, you are simply from a different culture with a slightly different way of perceiving and conveying some things.  I appreciate that and your input is always 'even' welcome.

I doubt anyone here truly thinks you are an idiot. That would certainly be a mistake. I think some can find you a little exasperating at times, but isn't that the nature our cultures relating together sometimes?  jb even said it a few posts ago.

Dave

[Daveman]

Sounds exactly like something my wife would say...

Get used to it guys!

I'm trying to... but sometimes I just can't help but stop and think WHAT was THAT???

does it EVER get 'even' a little easier?

[KenC]

I'm trying to... but sometimes I just can't help but stop and think WHAT was THAT???

does it EVER get 'even' a little easier?

Dave,
The answer is "yes."  After almost 9 years in this country, my wife has taken on many of the American mannerisms.  Like not offering rude opinions of peoples looks without being asked.  Hell, she even smiles freely now.  The Russian "directness" can cause some very uncomfortable incidences that are totally uncalled for.  I for one am glad that that period of adjustment has passed in our case.
KenC

[BC]

I think you took the words as 'sarcasm', which they were not, though when I think about it, I CAN see how you might think that. 

....

I thought this was obvious, but that's a good example of how things can be intended one way, but taken another. 

Dave,

This is probably the 'needle in the haystack' many look for but never find.. making things more difficult than they should be.

My wife spoke English quite well when we met but we still hit such obstacles numerous times.  We even created a 'time out' safe-word to stop frustrating exchanges and allow rephrasing into clearer language.

[catzenmouse]

Rather interesting that there is a few guys here tangled up with Omsk girls.  BTW don't start Catz on Omsk girls, he is more baised than me.

I/O

Bias? Naw, I just know what I like and the best place to find it! 

Anytime I'm in Omsk at the same time as any of you all I would be more than happy to buy the first round!

Ken

P. S. ~ Back to your regularly scheduled programming ~

[I/O]

P. S. ~ Back to your regularly scheduled programming ~

Regular schedule?  That sounds like a meeting at "Beeroclock" to me.

I/O

[Elen]

Hypocrisy would be the result of 'intent', not simply the words.  Hypocrisy is superficially espousing or preaching one idea while in reality practicing another.  I think you took the words as 'sarcasm', which they were not, though when I think about it, I CAN see how you might think that.  So, for you to think this to have been hypocrisy, you would have to think I said "Thank you" but really I am thinking "idiot".  We also call that "two faced". 

All "reasonings" about appreciating opinions of women from other culture at this board look for me like a hypocrisy because if those opinion don;t suit your own ideas you ( you* - I speak in general like an "attitude" of Americans   ) either call women idiots with such a fine American "courtesy" or try your best to explain why it was wrong
 The last thing you try to do is to even imagine for one moment that it's YOU who don;t understand something in others' culture It could be understandable if such behaviour of yours would be in cases of discusing life in AMERICA or males attitude to some issue But no it goes in ANY discussion about life in country your visited just few times, which language you don;t bother ( and can't ) to learn ( although pointing at bad English of Russian women who try to carry discussion with you is your usual "last " argument when you lack of others)
 It's easy for you to explain your own inability to understand others like stubbornness of women, like rudeness of whole nation, like suspicion ( because of former KGB  - what a  фигня     and etc - ANYTHING except admitting a fact YOU yourself can't understand and can't accept other's cultures and another opinions


As for this thread then I saw little said here by "boys" which could overcome exactly AGE gap Because boys failed to imagine situation with opposite roles to understand better what's exactly could be wrong with themselves in age gap marriages and if there is way to overcome it at all  preferring to think that what male could not bear ( neber mind what )  because of  just old ages of women was "natural" to bear for women in such unions All women who don't agree with that are idiots  ( but we could say thank even for them just to demonstarate how good manneras we have  )

That's MY OPINION which you claimed you ( EVEN) appreciated So instead of explaing me one more time how I being Russian and raising in "wrong" culture and possesing not enough English is suspicious-wrong-stubborn - blah-blah-blah - all usual compliments of American males ( including condescending "that's just RW guys, use to that) may be you better try to think what's wrong with your own posts and your views on issue because of which I take it in SUCH way. 

[Jazzyclassy]

Dave,
The answer is "yes."  After almost 9 years in this country, my wife has taken on many of the American mannerisms.  Like not offering rude opinions of peoples looks without being asked.  Hell, she even smiles freely now.  The Russian "directness" can cause some very uncomfortable incidences that are totally uncalled for.  I for one am glad that that period of adjustment has passed in our case.
KenC

well after  9 more years  the woman  wont be able to control her real emotions , that is very bad when one can not express his/her true real opinion about this or that situation ,cos she will develop double faced creature inside of her.

There is nothing to be proud of I should say , telling that someone adopted to completely different psychological condition not  natural for  her culture, killing her/his real emotions  , that will never lead to anything successful , it is Slavery

[KenC]

well after  9 more years  the woman  wont be able to control her real emotions , that is very bad when one can not express his/her true real opinion about this or that situation ,cos she will develop double faced creature inside of her.

There is nothing to be proud of I should say , telling that someone adopted to completely different psychological condition not  natural for  her culture, killing her/his real emotions  , that will never lead to anything successful , it is Slavery

Jazzy,
Get over yourself!  You speak of a country and a culture you know little about and have never experienced first hand with an agenda to "get even" with me because of other threads.  You really do yourself no favors and look very foolish in making such idiotic statements like this.  RW adapting to the social graces of America are now slaves?!  Go sell that sh!t to Elen.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

Jazzy,
Get over yourself!  You speak of a country and a culture you know little about and have never experienced first hand with an agenda to "get even" with me because of other threads.  You really do yourself no favors and look very foolish in making such idiotic statements like this.  RW adapting to the social graces of America are now slaves?!  Go sell that sh!t to Elen.
KenC

Shows  wonderful culture is not it

What western men did to help their russian wives, preserve their nature, their russian culture ?

Social Graces?? what you call social graces, ability to be hypocritical you call social grace? since when ?

What I told it is not what you call a  sh!t , it is well known and wide spread statement which can be true in many cases dear Ken C

Who give you right to talk like that  using such a crap language and low class words plus feeling yourself like a King  among people who have no idea about anything in your understanding

Your attacks shows another your true appearance

which we can all observe here and make conclusions

Again referring to your High class up bringing and terrific respectful attitude towards the other's opinions


Once again to cut this out for you

I heard many stories about women who went to live in america with their so called hubbies and then had such an illed souls  trying to adopt to their Social graces as you called, then after some years were coming back to Russia with depressed mood  and ruined lives and found themselves in the Monasteries

I judge from the stories I heard and it is not foolish

[wxman]

One of the hardest things for a person to do, is to integrate themselves into a new culture and society. That doesn't mean abandoning the character of their soul. However, if one chooses to move to another country, they must learn to accept and understand the nuances of that culture. Those that choose to isolate themselves from integrating into a new culture are usually the ones that remain unhappy and in the end return home. If I choose to live in another country, then it is my responsibility to learn the language, accept the way that culture operates,  become a productive member of that  society, and to live by their cultural rules. If I am unwilling to accept any of that, then I should stay where I am.