The Age "Old" Debate.

[ScottinCrimea]

Elen, the problem that both you and Jazzy have is that you think to defend a point, you need to attack using innuendos, personal attacks and broad statements, using such terms as "all", "never", "always", etc.   Maybe yoiu would be taken more seriously if you instead tried responding with something like, "I don't agree with this specific statement for these reasons...... and here are the facts that support my point of view.....".  Or sometimes just accept that the other party has made a valid point and say, "I see your point", or "I understand why you would think that way from your non-Russian perspective"  (without criticizing them for not being Russian).

[catzenmouse]

Dave,

 What you just experienced is called a BFO. I have them all the time here at work when I am struggling with something and someone else looks at it casually and says something like, "Yeah, it's supposed to be this way." And the Lights Flash, The Gong Sounds, The Earth Trembles, and there it was the whole time. A Blinding Flash of the Obvious!

 

Ken

[Elen]

Elen, the problem that both you and Jazzy have is that you think to defend a point, you need to attack using innuendos, personal attacks and broad statements, using such terms as "all", "never", "always", etc.   Maybe yoiu would be taken more seriously if you instead tried responding with something like, "I don't agree with this specific statement for these reasons...... and here are the facts that support my point of view.....".  Or sometimes just accept that the other party has made a valid point and say, "I see your point", or  (without criticizing them for not being Russian).

In my that post I expained MY point what I see wrong with YOUR posts at this and similar boards ( wich made me think that it's attitude of american in general) MY viewpoint has the  SAME value like yours ones about my posts

 I know for SURE that I and Jazzy are not alone and not even in minority with such an opinion. It's just others RW who had the same opinion left this board because of thinking it's in vane to proove you something here. That's that "fact" which supportes  my viewpoint

 PS and my statement was made AFTER I was called idiot for my efforts to explain my viewpoint without any personal attacks ( your dear just have not idea HOW  Elen's "personal attack" could look like Say thank God for that )



 PSS I'm kind women and just for you I ( for once ) post like you wish

  I understand why you would think that way from your non-Russian perspective   yeah I  understand  ..........
 
 that's because ....... that's because..... because ....
 
sorry I can't help myself  ...because you are arrogant American who were raised in culture which main idea was they're model for the rest of the world and  to teach others what "rigth" opinion they were supposed to have was their mission  on the Earth  

[Daveman]

sorry I can't help myself  ...because you are arrogant American who were raised in culture which main idea was they're model for the rest of the world and  to teach others what "rigth" opinion they were supposed to have was their mission  on the Earth  

I understand and do not discount your experiences.  But I think your idea that all Americans want to teach others the RIGHT opinion is simply not true.  I wish to teach about my culture and thoughts, so that a RW can understand me more easily, but, I also have the sincere wish to learn and understand Russian culture to be able to understand her the same way.

It's not that I want you, or any Russian to *adopt* my perspective.  Many of us simply want to find harmony and successful blending of ideas.

I think you will find that people like me are fairly common in America, but simply less seen, and less vocal so it's difficult to realize that we do, in fact, exist.

Dave

[Elen]

May be "you"  do exist someting there .... in America, где ни разу я не был.  But even "you" should take time to undersand when Russians're  joking, when they are sacrastic and when they really say what they think

 Any way if you do your efforts in understanding Russian culture without constanly using words like " Russian should.... Russians have to go long way to archive what we have here in America.... Russians use to do thing in such  absurd-odd-ridiculous way - you will be OK

and of course using word IDIOT in address of Russians if you didn;t understand what Russians were trying to explain you would not help in understanding  ( trust me no one expalnation later that you didn't meant that could save your face)   

[ScottinCrimea]

Elen, I know perfectly well how your "personal attack" could be.  I'm married to a Russian woman, remember?  Still, I'm sorry that you were unable to get through just one post without an insulting remark about me and Americans in general.

 I know for SURE that I and Jazzy are not alone and not even in minority with such an opinion. It's just others RW who had the same opinion left this board because of thinking it's in vane to proove you something here. That's that "fact" which supportes  my viewpoint

I think you spell out the problem very nicely here.  Your goal as you define it is to try to "prove something".  For most here, the goal is to offer opinions and advice and to learn from the opinions and advice of others.  If anyone spends all of their time always trying to prove that they are right, they will have few friends and even fewer admirers.

You know that I have never called you a name on this board, so I resent it when you assume that because I am American, I am the same as the one who did.  How would you like it if some other Russian woman hit me with a "семь этажей" epithet and I accused you of being a trash mouth just like "every Russian woman".

Like Dave, I don't agree with your generalizing statement about the American culture and their main idea.  sure there are some like that, just as there are some like that in every country, but they are not in the majority.  You don't see me anywhere on this board claiming that American is the best.  In fact, if we had a conversation, you would be more likely to hear me criticize the US and praise Ukraine.  But if there is anything good or bad about either one, I'm not shy about stating it.  I think I have a pretty balanced view, having lived outside the US before and in Ukraine now.  You can study all you want about American culture, but my guess is that it was in a class taught by Russian professors using textbooks written by Russian authors.  You can't expect to have a true picture of the culture, just like you can't expect us to have a true perspective of the Russian culture without going there and experiencing it firsthand.  As long as we both understand that our viewpoints are limited, give each other the benefit of the doubt and try to learn from each other rather than just rigidly defending our viewpoint with the last breath, this forum will have met its goal.

So let me ask you something. Since one of the goals of this forum is to educate, what positive things have you learned about America and Americans in general through your participation on this board?

[SANDRO43]

But I think your idea that all Americans want to teach others the RIGHT opinion is simply not true.

Dave, for the average person that depends largely on how American attitudes are PERCEIVED, and that is mostly based on what one hears on national TV and/or reads in national papers, which of course add their own, national commentary. Hence, the often wild generalisations one hears when discussing Americans, Russians, Italians or whatever.

I also have the sincere wish to learn and understand ...

For instance, your current President is NOT universally perceived as sharing your laudable attitude .

[Daveman]

Blinding Flash of the Obvious!

LoL, I haven't heard that one before. You just pull that outta yer ear?  Yeah, the earth trembled, opened up and gobbled up my old way of thinking.  Though now, I'll have a new hypocrisy!    It doesn't bother me how I get it as long as I eventually get it ...  Even a Blinding Flash of the Obvious, er, well, as long as it ain't from a trench coat on some foggy street corner!  :hairraising:

[Elen]

Elen, I know perfectly well how your "personal attack" could be.  I'm married to a Russian woman, remember?  Still, I'm sorry that you were unable to get through just one post without an insulting remark about me and Americans in general.

 Dear Scott! I appreciate your opinion, I can understand that it's different because you are from another culture , I take into consideration your experience of living  here in FSU but allow me to post what I myself think ....  please 

If it was "just one" such post then my "generalisation" would not be of such kind But I was here not since April 1 2007 and had time to learn that if I didn't react and left such "just one" statements without noticing they would repeat time after time. That's MY experience of dealing with Americans and I ack according to it. My advice for you ( those who made such posts and those who didn't make ( yet) such of kind ) just get an idea THAT would not be left without what you called like "insulting remarks" which are ALWAYS  just a  "payback" . You may ignore that, you may think whatever you wish but it's so.


 Aslo if you went some far than that post from April 3 you would find MORE than one my post without any generalisation about Americans but only with my opinions about discussed issues

I hope that helps. Have a nice day. I wish you good luck. Take care ....   God bless America !

Lenochka

I think you spell out the problem very nicely here.  Your goal as you define it is to try to "prove something".  For most here, the goal is to offer opinions and advice and to learn from the opinions and advice of others.  If anyone spends all of their time always trying to prove that they are right, they will have few friends and even fewer admirers.

Dear Scott! I appreciate your opinion, I can understand that it's deferent because you are from another culture , I take into consideration your experience of living  here in FSU but allow me to post what I myself think ...  please 

 I think you fail to see where real problems lies. It's IMPOSSIBLE to post here an opinion which is different to opinion of others without a need to PROOVE it ( btw it was YOUR offer ( demand or whatelse it was) to support my opinion with facts. RARE my opinion about RUSSIA opposited to American's once was taken just like that without me FORSED to prove that I thought exactly like that, that MY experience WAS exactly like I posted, that I have a right to have exactly SUCH opinion.  Although I don't mind such discussions - (otherwise  my posts would look like guru's sermons while I have no intention to pretend to be that "guru") But I accept discussion only if they don't go into direction of name calling,  psychological annalysis of my lovely person and mentor's style advices how I should formulate my opinion.

I hope that helps. Have a nice day. I wish you good luck. Take care ....   God bless America !

Lenochka

PSs And don't worry about amount of my admires.  I came here not to gain "admiers" although I do have enough of them. You are not one of them but it's not a tragedy of all my life. I 'm sorry if such revelation upset you.

You know that I have never called you a name on this board, so I resent it when you assume that because I am American, I am the same as the one who did.  How would you like it if some other Russian woman hit me with a "семь этажей" epithet and I accused you of being a trash mouth just like "every Russian woman".

Dear Scott! I appreciate your opinion, I can understand that it's deferent because you are from another culture , I take into consideration your experience of living  here in FSU but allow me to post what I myself think  ....  please

  I can't recall where I accuse PERSONALY YOU in calling me names What I posted was my opinion about this board in general where I had enough - call naming, rude "compliments", even an attempt to "black mail" me by some idiot ( surprise e was American as well) with a demand  to shut up with my opinion  and muffling by an owner of the board. So I do have a right for such my opinion. It's business of yours to take it on your own accaunt ( though now after your mentor's instructions you got your own place in my opinion about Americans as well) or to make conclusion how to improve my such opinion about Americans and this board in general if my " bad" opinion does bother you.

PS BTW that's only ТРЁХ этажные комплименты in Russia language .

I hope that helps Have a nice day I wish you good luck Take care ....   what else I forgot there Ah yeah ... God bless America !

Lenochka

Like Dave, I don't agree with your generalizing statement about the American culture and their main idea.  sure there are some like that, just as there are some like that in every country, but they are not in the majority.  You don't see me anywhere on this board claiming that American is the best.  In fact, if we had a conversation, you would be more likely to hear me criticize the US and praise Ukraine.  But if there is anything good or bad about either one, I'm not shy about stating it.  I think I have a pretty balanced view, having lived outside the US before and in Ukraine now.  You can study all you want about American culture, but my guess is that it was in a class taught by Russian professors using textbooks written by Russian authors.  You can't expect to have a true picture of the culture, just like you can't expect us to have a true perspective of the Russian culture without going there and experiencing it firsthand.  As long as we both understand that our viewpoints are limited, give each other the benefit of the doubt and try to learn from each other rather than just rigidly defending our viewpoint with the last breath, this forum will have met its goal.

Dear Scott! I appreciate your opinion, I can understand that it's deferent because you are from another culture , I take into consideration your experience of living  here in FSu but allow me to post what I myself think  ....  please

You missed a point one more time ( in a company with Dave) Next time pay some more attention to emotions I post in my messages They are there not "just so"

 As for studying life in America by Russians like you see it than it's typical American viewpoint ( from my Russian viewpoint) that you presume we do that ONLY by books written by Russian authors. The first thing we do if we wish to know other culture is studying it's language and read books wrote by native authors in original. But I do understand where your such opinion goes from - after all you are from that culture which representatives told me not for once that's the rest of the world MUST learn English ( and speak properly at it or all misakes would be pointed in a case of "wrong" opinion) and they themselves are not obligated to learn Russian at all ( EVEN if they marry Russian woman and used to take participation in discussion about of life in Russia)

And if we are speaking about THIS particular board where you  discuss not life in America ( and the last person who is posting personal opnion about LIFE America is me) but discussions are rolling about life in Russia and RUssian women then it's YOU who should keep in mind that your opinion is limited in much more degree than my ones in this sphera
 As for opinion about others issue than we have an equil rights to have different opinions just because we have different genders Calling me idiot for how I see an "issue" ( like it's been done not by you but others - NOT FOR ONCE)  is out of place

Ps My acquaintance with personally you Scott at this board started with reading 4 pages with your VERY "balanced" viewpoint   about medicine in Russia where you failed to mention even one positive thing at all those first 4 pages. I leave for yourself to make guessing what first expression you made on me ( and continue to make)

I hope that helps Have a nice day I wish you good luck....   what else I forgot there    Ah yeah ... god bless America

So let me ask you something. Since one of the goals of this forum is to educate, what positive things have you learned about America and Americans in general through your participation on this board?

1. I don't think too much what exactly "goal" , "mission", "intention" and etc I just can't see and can't bear that nonsense you* (* foreigners) post here about Russia ( time from time but time after time)

2. I learned nothing positive about America in general ( there were few discussions about AMERICA here at all.  Mostly they are about Russia ( and  they are mostly negative and critical - I;m about RUSSIA but not Russian women)

3. About Americans - positive - well......   not all of you are sex tourists, some do want to marry and wish to have happy families ( but of course ONLY with a woman who is younger than you and who is good looking - posts that "ages don;t matter" , and "personality matters more than look" I see like hypocrisy ( males' one not just American) and stay with such my opinion Males failed to prove me here otherwise)  

I hope that helps Have a nice day I wish you good luck Take care ....   what else I forgot there    Ah yeah ... God bless America !
Lenochka

[Jazzyclassy]

           As for studying life in America by Russian like you see it than it's typical American viewpoint ( from my Russian viewpoint) that you presume we do that ONLY by books written by Russian authors. The first thing we do if we wish to know other culture is studying it's language and read books wrote by native authors in original. But I do understand where your such opinion goes from - after all you are from that culture which representatives tell me not for once that's the rest of the world MUST learn English ( and speak properly at it or all misakes would be pointed in a case of "wrong" opinion) and they themselves are not obligated to learn Russian at all ( EVEN if they marry Russian woman and used to take participation in discussion about of life in Russia)

           

and moreover they never put themselves into our skin and think that we actually should be born with fluent english language!!!! I have some of my friends who do not care about english language at all  they know only like Hi and goodbye ,they just tell , god why are you always upset that those foreign people wont understand your opinion right  , when I was telling them how it is sometimes difficult to communicate with international people, they were telling me God  just do not waste your nerves, gaining grey hairs  on those who will never ever Try to  understand you and will always look from the sky over you...

 I think we deserve some respect cos we actually try to learn language and try learn the culture and traditions of other people and the bits of their character and  we do respect other nations and feel compassion towards a lot of them.

        2. I learn nothing positive about America in general ( there are few discussions about AMERICA here mostly they are about Russia ( and  they are mostly negative and critic - I;m about RUSSIA but not Russian women)

3. About Americans - positive - well......   you do want to marry and wish to have happy families ( but of course ONLY with a woman who younger than you and who is good looking - posts that "ages don;t matter" I see like hypocrisy and stay with such my opinion Males failed to prove me here otherwise                     

Actually this board gave me  more negative statements and Impressions about America than I ever had them in my life, here I agree with Elen
(please do not insult Elen she is a woman first of all , plus she talks sense from the russian point of view most of the times, plus she is a hero member here, what will you do without her here, you will be completely lost in your ideal perception of yourself and others:))

I was studying in Americanized school and I always remember all the Halloween holidays, Valentine's day , thanksgiving day and so on and I truly loved all those holidays I was excited about celebrating them though I am russian person and plus was a kid still I was absolutely fascinated about american culture that they are so opened minded so free not scared to speak their mind , to speak  what they think , that they wore old clothing and never payed attention to what other said about their appearance and stuff, that they were so friendly and absolutely fun to chat to to go camping , to take everything from life till the maximum and so on , were very hardworking and many many positive things about Americans.

Their music just captured me especially soul music,r and b stuff, jazz , then these easy popular melodies , the ability of americans to bring amazing bits from every style of music and reunite them in one genre was cool ,then talking about american literature I like so much Richard Wright Afro american author he wrote an autobiography book called Black Boy about his life , that masterpiece impressed me a lot I even cried about how the boy was striving hard in order to achieve his dream to be a writer though he was from  not a wealthy and stalbe family his father left their mom and then she was ill for a long time and how he first met all those negative situations how he had to work early when he was still a child , how he was selling the neswpaper  who  propaganded racism being a black boy himself and so on ............. and that book by Salinger the Cather in the Rye , that is just such a great book of all the times also about the boy's life his searchings for the answers what is right and what is wrong, I truly appreciate all those things about America
, I was even thinking when being a child  maybe I was an american person ahhahahaha............................................

growing up I understood am absolutely russian , my opinion did not change about Americans  much  though I still think all those positive things about  them

I do not blame them in anything

Just this message board really   enlightened some other aspects of how american people could be and I am thankful so much to this forum that I can learn much more and  learn both sides of the matter.

[Daveman]

May be "you"  do exist someting there .... in America, где ни разу я не был.  But even "you" should take time to undersand when Russians're  joking, when they are sacrastic and when they really say what they think

 Any way if you do your efforts in understanding Russian culture without constanly using words like " Russian should.... Russians have to go long way to archive what we have here in America.... Russians use to do thing in such  absurd-odd-ridiculous way - you will be OK

and of course using word IDIOT in address of Russians if you didn;t understand what Russians were trying to explain you would not help in understanding  ( trust me no one expalnation later that you didn't meant that could save your face)   

Elen,
I actually did see that you were kidding, or using a little dry sarcasm..  Which is why I quoted the "punch line" of the post.  I certainly don't always know when a Russian lady is joking over the phone, at least not yet, because she seems so serious when she's telling it, but I'm getting better at that slowly.  Face to face is a little easier for me, because the body language seems to be a little different when a Russian person is joking, though even then, sometimes the telling of something humorous seems very serious, and I don't always get the joke.  Sometimes it's easy, sometimes not.

Anyway, isn't it a Russian proverb, or saying, or something that every joke has a bit of truth?  I thought it would be a nice lighthearted moment to say something real.

As to your other tips, thank you. I'll keep those in mind, both when posting here and in life.


Dave

[Daveman]

Dave, for the average person that depends largely on how American attitudes are PERCEIVED, and that is mostly based on what one hears on national TV and/or reads in national papers, which of course add their own, national commentary. Hence, the often wild generalisations one hears when discussing Americans, Russians, Italians or whatever.

Sandro, I can see that from watching news in Ukraine and Russia.  I haven't really been anywhere else. I, like many Americans, had never really traveled abroad until this adventure. Of course, I couldn't understand all the commentary, but at least their normal news had much coverage from all over the world.  That's a little different than for us.  We don't even get world coverage unless we tune into BBC, or specialty news channels.  Our own 'world news" channels seem to report only world news which directly effects us in some way. So we don't always get a good world picture - meaning, that average American opinions of the rest of the world are often absurd.

For instance, your current President is NOT universally perceived as sharing your laudable attitude .

Yeah, I can certainly understand THAT perception.  I guess the world may not really realize that most of us think our government is filled with backstabbing, lying crooks and sometimes idiots.  Sure we have free elections, so it could be argued that *we* put them there, but in the elections our choices are very limited.  It seems we must elect the lesser of evils, or, whoever is the least criminal, or the least idiot, or the least liar.   We often have the same opinion of our government as the rest of the world, but short of armed, blood shedding revolution, we are stuck with this "lesser of evils" system of government.

So yeah, I can easily see where some of the wild opinions of us originate.     

Oh, and to get this back on topic, there is usually a great age difference between politicians and their mistresses! 

Dave

[Daveman]

Just this message board really   enlightened some other aspects of how american people could be and I am thankful so much to this forum that I can learn much more and  learn both sides of the matter.

Jazzy, this is true for ANY forum in America.  We can be argumentative debaters.  Really. That freedom to express opinion does lead to a very argumentative expressions sometimes, especially in an environment like this where some people do tend to behave very differently than you would see them behave in person.  Some of the most kind and respectful people you'll ever meet in real life go through some kind of metamorphosis on a forum.  Perhaps their real nature?  I don't know.  But even in life, Americans will get into very "heated debates" over opinions.  Even good friends.  I think it comes from our "got to win" attitude.  We are in competition here from childhood up.. competing to get the best grades, competing in sports, competing to be the best in everything.  This has some good aspects and some very bad aspects.

Often times, in our arguments here, it can get so ridiculous that people will even forget what they're arguing about because it becomes a competition to WIN, and the actual topic is lost in the competition.  Regardless of the age difference of the combatants.  Heh, back on topic? nahhhhh!

Those things you mention about America are very true.  But I guess like with anything, there are some 'dark sides'.

Dave

[jb]

For instance, your current President is NOT universally perceived as sharing your laudable attitude

Huh???

Is this thread turning political?  I love to debate international politics with Europeans.   However Dan would have a conniption fit if we devolved in that direction.  However, your anti-American jab was duly noted and filed away for future referrence.

[catzenmouse]

Elen & Jazzy,

 

Guys,

 These are real opinions from the source. Not filtered through an agency, interpreter, or guide. Remember this when you start thinking about all those demure models you are shown on-line.

Ken

[catzenmouse]

Ooops! I forgot to add...

 God Bless Russia! 

[Admin]

Huh???

Is this thread turning political?  I love to debate international politics with Europeans.   However Dan would have a conniption fit if we devolved in that direction.  However, your anti-American jab was duly noted and filed away for future referrence.

Two points:

If (and that is a HUGE *if*) a political discourse could be conducted without the inevitable turn to personal flames and insults - and if (another HUGE *if*) the discourse were genuinely intended by all parties to learn from one another and seek common ground - then I would not be opposed.

Next point. I recall reading a psychology text some years ago which referenced a behavior the author called "collecting tickets." It is an unhealthy process of human interaction in which one party gets offended at something, and they then begin to start a mental accounting of those 'tickets' - so they can 'redeem' them at some future date. The 'redemption' of the tickets occurs when something triggers that final straw (they are so heavy they have to be redeemed), and then they all come flooding out demanding redemption all at once.

I think the point of it was to say that a healthy response to something being offensive is to internally resolve it so that it does not 'weigh' on a person - or to resolve it through some form of productive discourse with the offender. Holding onto things for future 'redemption' seems an unnecessary mental accounting - to me, at least.

FWIW

- Dan

[I/O]

Dan:  Your ticket redemption thing reminds me of something told me once which is much more topical.  Women are like computers.....even your smallest mistakes are stored in the long term memory for convenient later retrieval.

Nevertheless, I think this thread has taken the cake for getting the furthest OFF topic of anything I've seen for a while.  The political debates might be better had elsewhere and this thread given a suitable burial well out of sight in the archives.

I/O

[BC]

I/O,

This usually happens when a thread has run it's course and there isn't much more that can be added to the original topic.

Is quite normal.  I've seen about a hundred age threads come and go but still find an occasional nugget to ponder, even if it's off topic.

jb,

Politics aside, 'worldliness' is quite accepted everywhere as being a positive attribute.  In many ways your experiences overseas allows you to see things others may not in this venture, even if some hairs might rise to your wording.  In principle what Sandro wrote was not anti-American IMHO but instead a comparison between what is perceived to be the President's POV's vs others, like you, that have seen a good bit of the world from the ground up and not by peering out the windows of AFO waiting for a red carpet to be unrolled.

[jb]

For the record, I responded to Dan via PM rather than create a fire storm here.

[ScottinCrimea]

Elen and Jazzy, those were both excellent posts and I gained a lot from them.  I don't agree with everything that was said, but then that's the great thing about these forums is listening to different ideas and opinions than my own.  When you speak about the things you know best without getting overly defensive, you add much to this forum.  I'll leav it at that and say, "God bless us all!"

[SANDRO43]

However, your anti-American jab was duly noted and filed away for future refe(r)rence.

JB, my reference to your President could be regarded as an "anti-American jab" if ALL Americans were solidly behind him, which does not appear to be the case, IIRC.

Curious that you should not similarly react to Daveman's reply, though, which was far more condemning than mine, unless you subscribe to the notion that any criticism of G.W.'s attitudes is acceptable only when coming from Americans themselves .

[Ste]

To cap this off we've just been to the pub for a Good Friday meal and few scoops and a family game of cricket on the old Crown Green Bowling green.

Three others joined us and one of these guys (Warren 25 yo) thought my daughter (16 yo) was my wife! Me 46 in June!

That's how young I look!! Beat that!

Young Ste

PS Just to remind myself I am 46 my legs are killing me after a 6 over game......

[timothe]

For instance, your current President is NOT universally perceived as sharing your laudable attitude .

The days of relying on print and television media to accurately report the world's collective political temperature are long gone.  Today's media simply has too much unchecked power.

[I/O]

Three others joined us and one of these guys (Warren 25 yo) thought my daughter (16 yo) was my wife! Me 46 in June!

That's how young I look!! Beat that!

Good touch of "Ego Theropy" there.

I/O