Houston we have a problem

[BillyB]

I previously encountered strong resistance from her when I asked about ex's.  I knew she lived with a guy before yet she seemed against the concept of living together without being married.  Some of the dates and questions of that time also didn't quite add up and now it all makes sense as to why.  Also, my gut told me a bit that she was hiding something and now I see what it was.
 
 But she listed herself as not divorced on the websites because she thought she could pretend it never happened (and just referred to him as an ex boyfriend).

This kind of reminds me of a woman I wrote to. She was previously engaged to a man only later to find out he had children. Maybe, like your fiancee, he "pretend it never happened" and wanted to forget about it. She said many men don't tell her they have children until much later.

I suspect some people, men and women, want to improve their chances of finding a mate by hiding facts about themselves that would turn off a potential mate. DKMM, your fiancee did not tell you she was married because you questioned her about it, she deceived every man from the beginning when she wrote her profile to catch a man. I don't think you scared her from telling the truth with your question.

BTW, why did you ask her about divorce after reading her profile? Not only did she not claim that in her profile, she again claimed to you she wasn't divorced.

DKMM, If I remember correctly, you have a special financial situation that makes getting a prenup important before getting married. A bad woman and a good attorney could destroy that prenup if you don't do it right. Just something for you to chew on.

Here's what I'd do. I'd say send the ring back and I'm stopping the k-1 visa. I need time to think about all this and it may take months or even a year before I could make a decision on marriage. Then I'd wait to see if the ring gets returned and make a judgement call weeks or months later. Who knows? The woman may find a new boyfriend by then as she would not tolerate any delays to getting married. Maybe she really cares about you and would wait patiently for you to make a decision.

[ScottinCrimea]

People are expressing a lot of opinions, sharing personal experiences and offering some good advice.  It seems to boil down to one of two options.  Either run away now and don't look back or back off and take a significant amount of time to learn more about this woman and then make your decision.  I don't see anyone here who advocates brushing it off as just a misstep. Ultimately it's for you to decide.  No question it's a tough spot to be in, to have all of your dreams wrapped up in someone and then have something like this happen.  Either way you decide, I think everyone here will be behind you.

[acrzybear]

Perhaps I'm different, but I see no point in lying to someone you might be living with.  If you spend enough time with a person there true personality will emerge, so why waste time and energy fabricating another personality?

  I'm not talking about giving a full briefiing/power point presentation on the first date, but during the courtship process when questions are asked-then answer honestly.

In the famous words of Sir Walter Scott from Marmion, Canto VI. Stanza 17:
 
  Yet Clare's sharp questions must I shun,
Must separate Constance from the nun
Oh! what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive!
A Palmer too! No wonder why
I felt rebuked beneath his eye;

[KenC]

Jeez WM..

Don't have much time right now, gotta go bbq some chicken..  but my first impression:

When dating we all push the envelope as to 'truthfulness', both men and women.  Scott's comments regarding 'past history' are quite in line with my albeit limited experience with RW.

It's what happens later that counts..  As the relationship continues more and more is filtered.

I guarantee you that nobody is perfect.. there will always be something caught in the net. Only then can one decide whether to put up with it.

More maybe later..

BC,
I hope this was a hasty bit of advice and when you have more time to think it over, you will change your mind.  I agree that during developing a relationship, some information is sometimes "filtered" a bit as you say, but even that action should raise some doubts.  This is not a "filtering" of the truth, or a white lie, or a stretching of a truth, but a bold face deceitful lie made in order to improve one's standing.  At some point, this woman had to look into the eyes of the man she wants to spend the rest of her life with and lie like a dog!  It was also a very stupid lie too.  Sometime some where it would come out.  If a person is willing to lie about something so basic, they will lie about anything.  She deserves to be kicked to the curb.
KenC

[DKMM]

Thank you all for the input.  RWD is a valueable place indeed.  I toyed with both options as Scott put it.

Sokhay that sounds about right.  Its too much to type here but I was able to have a good 2 hour conversation today with her.  Its very clear she wishes she told me earlier.  She specifically said she was too scared to tell me as I told her previously I wouldn't stand for a divorcee and that she loves me to death.  The girl was nearly fired from her new job she started today and sounds like she'll be in a hospital if I keep up the pressure. 

Ken, she actually initially thought she could keep it a secret.  She thought if she got married here nobody would know the wiser and she was ready to cut all ties to Russia anyway.  But she admits that was very stupid and selfish.  I have to admit to myself that I strung together some lies about my WMVM trip to Tver, because I didn't want her to know at the time I was meeting a bunch of girls there and she certainly would not like hearing about S moving in with me!  Or that I was even trying to choose between them when I got home... and I wish I never lied to her that she was my WOVO but that's another issue.

As for waiting till after the engagement, well its my fault for jumping the gun on the proposal as we still needed to get to know each other.  She knows I won't tolerate even the slightest lie and that she needs to be up front with anything and everything that happens and bothers her in the future.  Also, I can ask anything I want of her life and she has to allow me 100% access to her mind.

Only time will tell as some said and I will go back in 5 weeks and we'll see where it goes.  I told her she needs to rebuild my trust if our relationship is going to progress to marriage and she agreed to that.  Its on her now to make it work.

I'm not going to call anything off, and that's my decision because I have all the facts.  I'm also pausing the K-1 process and any plans beyond my next trip to see her.  Believe me, if you knew her, you would know how special and amazing she is and not easy to find even in the FSU.

Thank you all, it helps to have different opinions so I can really test my feelings on the matter.

[acrzybear]

  I have to admit to myself that I strung together some lies about my WMVM trip to Tver, because I didn't want her to know at the time I was meeting a bunch of girls there and she certainly would not like hearing about S moving in with me!  Or that I was even trying to choose between them when I got home... and I wish I never lied to her that she was my WOVO but that's another issue.

Birds of a feather......nuff said

As for waiting till after the engagement, well its my fault for jumping the gun on the proposal as we still needed to get to know each other.  She knows I won't tolerate even the slightest lie and that she needs to be up front with anything and everything that happens and bothers her in the future.  Also, I can ask anything I want of her life and she has to allow me 100% access to her mind.

This statement is a bit scary as if he wanted to dominate her, last I check in order for a truely productive loving relationship there MUSTbetrust and HONESTYfrom both parties involved.  The way this reads to me is "She can't lie, but my deceptions are none of her damn business"

Is it just me or does it seem like RWD is becoming abundant with persons that area lacking integrity?

in the words of Bob Dylan;
the times thay are achangin

[ScottinCrimea]

DKMM, I guess I was wrong when I said that whatever your decision, everyone here would support you.  The time for such comments as acrzybear's are over.  It's your life and your decision to make.  Only you know the whole story.  Good luck and I hope that your willingness to give her a second chance pays off.  I know it did with mine.

WmGO, I started another thread in the no holds barred section and posted my response to your rants there.  That way you can respond if you choose without hijacking this thread again.

[Gator]

You are making the decision I would make, whether it is correct or not.  

Marriage is not continuous bliss. Problems will occur.  What is important is each person's committment to the relationship and what they do together to fix any problem.  In you case, both of you are committed.  Now step back and observe what each of you are doing to remedy the problem.

Nevertheless, DKMM, I guarantee you that there is more that she is not telling you.  A prolonged heart-to-heart talk should bring it out if she indeed trusts you.  At this "Come to Jesus" meeting, you will see enough to decide whether to continue or walk away.

One final word of advice.  If you do decide to continue together, you must forget that this episode happened.  It must be out of your mind.  Picking scabs
is never helpful.   If you can not do that, walk away now and save yourself doubt and anguish.

Good luck.

[Gator]

crazyBear,

I understand and appreciate your perspective.  You must deal with some lowlifes (thank God people like you do exactly that and protect me while I sleep).  Giving someone the benefit of the doubt could be dangerous.

Your rules for lowlifes, however, may not apply in love.  Rarely are things black and white.  Then again, this may be the exception where one can have no tolerance.  I am a tolerant man; however,  I am no pillar of success: divorced after 25 years of marriage and two failed relationships with RW. 

[Gator]

HiTech wrote,

I also just ended my relationship with my Lady 1 week ago because of similar issues. And I am still having problems keeping my head on straight about it. I had the K-1 filed about 1.5 months back.

Sorry to hear.  I sympathize as I experienced exactly the same.

It seemed as if everything was developing fine in your case.  Marrying a RW is not as easy as in the past.  That may be a good thing.  We are more informed these days and we may have avoided what would have been a troubled marriage.  Who needs that!  Nevertheless, the pain of broken dreams does not disappear quickly.  Good luck.

[acrzybear]

Gator

Thank you for the kind words

Yes I do deal with some real winners, however it is my integrity that has kept me out of trouble.  I am actually a very easy guy to get along with as long as you aren't a liar or a thief and I refuse to associate myself with those that do.  I have given many a person a break that was honest with me (a guy ran a red light in front of me the other day and I had every intention of giving him a ticket, yet when I contacted him he said " I'm sorry for running that red light Sergeant, I have no excuse I had my head up my a$$"  I smiled and gave him a verbal) If I am going to spend my life and share all that I have with someone then they MUST be honest with me as I will be with them.  I believe that any relationship must have trust, no trust then you have no foundation to build on. 

  There are some things I will not compromise on and lying is one of them.  But as you said in your previous post DKMM has all the facts and it's his life.  The romantic (yes I still have a little bit hidden somewhere ) hopes I am proven wrong and they ride happily ever after into the sunset, but the realistic part says otherwise. 

  We all have different standards and levels of acceptability 

     

[Mir]

Believe me, if you knew her, you would know how special and amazing she is and not easy to find even in the FSU.

Well it is a balancing act. If her good qualities are so great that loosing will be a crime then why worry about this incident.

[jb]

Crazy Bear,

I'm going to be in your neck of the woods for the next few weeks, with all the rain delays my bussiness is suffering perhaps we can get together for a beer if you are not pulling night shifts.

I drove down from Montana over the past two days, I shut 'er down about 7 last night in Childress, nice to find a Motel with reliable internet again), and have to be in Stephenville by mid afternoon.  However it looks like the crew will be on standby for the next several days.  Perhaps we could exchange phone #s by PM?

BTW, I agree 100% with your assessment.  My ol' pappy once told me to never trust a liar, he said he'd sooner trust a thief since he could always buy a lock to protect his stuff, but there is no lock that will protect you from a liar.  A liar is not messin' with your stuff, he's messin' with your mind.

Just my 2 cents.

[IAmZon]

I too think you are making the right decision, DKMM.

Your wrote - "I'm not going to call anything off, and that's my decision because I have all the facts.  I'm also pausing the K-1 process and any plans beyond my next trip to see her.  Believe me, if you knew her, you would know how special and amazing she is and not easy to find even in the FSU.

I hope you are right ... I think you may be.

But test your evidence. With the nicest of intentions, I observe that your experience with women seems to be NOT vast.    A GREAT and SUCCESSFUL marriage sucks alot of the time.  Some of the "bonding" experiences you relayed in your TR ... these kind of moments also exist - especially in the beginning; especially on exotic vacations - in almost every failed marriage.

Best of luck to you

[Turboguy]

I think you are making the right choice.   More time together will let you get your head a little clearer and a chance to see how she is over a longer period of time.

To me, and I don't mean it negatively, I think you have yourself to blame a bit if I read everything correctly.   It sounds like you made a big deal about wanting someone who had not been married previously which would make someone worry a lot more about confiding the truth.   Telling someone that you have been married before does not usually take much courage but if you know that is a very sensitive subject for that person then it does change the dynamics.

I can agree that sometimes people are not comfortable discussing their past with someone early in the getting to know them stage but that alone is no excuse.  When I started communicating with VWRW she told me upfront that she had this, this and this in her life and was not comfortable talking about some of the things and when we knew each other better she would tell me the full story which she did.  I was married for 18 years and for me it was miserable enough that I don't even like to think about it never the less talk about it but I would never hide the fact from anyone.   I can even remember right after we separated I went to a local hotspot, talked to a gal a bit and she asked me my status.   I told her I was separated.   She asked how long.  She sure had a funny look on her face when I told her 3 days!.    Honesty is always the best policy but I think sometimes we can make it harder for someone to be honest and you may have done that without trying.   Spend more time with her, hopefully if she is the person you think you will have a lifetime to be together so spending some extra time making sure she is the right one is not a bad choice.

[KenC]

Turbo,
Your logic used here baffles me.  Because it was such an important trait (not being a divorcee) to DKMM it is now some how his responsibility for her lying?  Wow, that just doesn't make any sense to me.  The entire relationship is built on this lie too.  DKMM was specifically looking for a woman that had not divorced (for some reason) and she listed herself as "never married."  I think you guys that are making too little of her lie are imposing your own thoughts about the fact that she was divorced.  Personally, I would actually prefer a woman that has experienced marriage before, but that is not DKMM's preference.  This is no slight misrepresentation but a bold face deception of the facts.  She has shown that she is capable of anything it takes to land a man.  Of course she is upset too because she has been found out and might loose her "golden mule."
KenC

[William3rd]

Smells like a future green card girl to me. . . . .

So- after she VAWAs you down the road, please dont come back here crying. Then we would have 17 pages of posts trying to rationalize the earlier incorrect decision.


This is a major misrepresentation. It is not a little thing.

The tendency to poo-poo or magically change the facts to suit the opinion amazes me.

She would have been caught at the consular interview and had no choice but to reveal her falsehood at this time. She just didnt know early enough about the game how to tailor her lines.

Dont worry- I think that she will be up front with the next fiancee a couple of months from now.

[Turboguy]

KenC,  sorry if my logic baffles you.   I think it is my fault that I did not express all my feelings so much as I was trying to bring out anything that had not been said a dozen times already.

I am not impressed with the lie one little bit.  It sounds like she listed herself that way.   I do allow for the possibility of a mistake.   I have seen thin gals listed as weighing 200 pounds and vice versa.   Not all profiles are 100% accurate.  I do think in making a big deal of it he made it harder for her to be truthful.   

My last fiancee told more lies than truth and it is something that makes a good relationship impossible.   I do think spending more time with her is a viable option but it would take several trips for me to be willing to file a K-1 and even the tiniest lie would have me running for the hills.   I think the other viable option is just moving on.  That is probably the smartest choice but I think we all have to follow our heart.   We are the ones who have to walk through life in our shoes and pay the price for our good and bad decisions. 

[HiTech]

As for waiting till after the engagement, well its my fault for jumping the gun on the proposal as we still needed to get to know each other.  She knows I won't tolerate even the slightest lie and that she needs to be up front with anything and everything that happens and bothers her in the future.  Also, I can ask anything I want of her life and she has to allow me 100% access to her mind.

DKMM: Rember Actions speak louder than words. I do not disagree with your decisions on how to proceed.
Please remember that you have shifted a lot of responsibility on her, if she really does open up, no half truth type things, goes over board to correct the problem, then I believe it can work for you. Just please do not fall into the give one more inch and have another mile pulled away from you syndrome.

I also know the pain that is ripping at your heart when you speak to her. Every bone in your body makes you want to make her feel better. And right now your heart and your mind I am sure are in complete conflict.

Gator:
Thanks for the kind words, at 2:00 AM last night, I am still having to stop myself from booking a ticket for a flight back to the Ukraine the following day. The issue for me was, her selfishness/drama queen/ not willing to answer some questions by stating "It hurts to much to talk about it" but mostly just being inconsiderate to other people along with being inconsiderate to my feeling and wishes.

On a side note, is the normal protocol for the lady to give the ring back if the man breaks the engagement?


HiTech

[BC]

On a side note, is the normal protocol for the lady to give the ring back if the man breaks the engagement?

A gift is a gift.  If she gives it back of her own accord, fine.  If she doesn't, well so be it.. school of hard rocks..

jimho

[Turboguy]

In America the protocol was always if the man broke things off she kept it and if the woman did she gave it back.   I have no idea in Ukraine.

[BC]

Quote from: BC on Yesterday at 21:26:55

Jeez WM..

Don't have much time right now, gotta go bbq some chicken..  but my first impression:

When dating we all push the envelope as to 'truthfulness', both men and women.  Scott's comments regarding 'past history' are quite in line with my albeit limited experience with RW.

It's what happens later that counts..  As the relationship continues more and more is filtered.

I guarantee you that nobody is perfect.. there will always be something caught in the net. Only then can one decide whether to put up with it.

More maybe later..

BC,
I hope this was a hasty bit of advice and when you have more time to think it over, you will change your mind.  I agree that during developing a relationship, some information is sometimes "filtered" a bit as you say, but even that action should raise some doubts.  This is not a "filtering" of the truth, or a white lie, or a stretching of a truth, but a bold face deceitful lie made in order to improve one's standing.  At some point, this woman had to look into the eyes of the man she wants to spend the rest of her life with and lie like a dog!  It was also a very stupid lie too.  Sometime some where it would come out.  If a person is willing to lie about something so basic, they will lie about anything.  She deserves to be kicked to the curb.
KenC

Ken,

Had a great bbq, thanks.

My thoughts are the following:

1. I do not directly know the people involved, have not seen them interact.  There are some cases where we can jump and scream 'scammer', or GCG, or whatever based on what is posted, something like 'she needs 500 bucks for a tourist visa to the US' and be spot on..  In this case there is nothing really clear cut to judge.  Please don't construe my words to say that I condone lying within a relationship.. -I certainly do not.. but based on my experience even severe transgressions can be overcome within a relationship.

2. To err is human, to forgive divine..

When discussing 'grey area' transgressions such as the one reported here I think it is important to try and weigh what was going through the transgressors mind.. and we obviously cannot do that here.

There are however scenarios where I *think* could make the RW being discussed here think that her actions could cause no harm.

Consider the following..

If I were a woman and met a man that insisted that his partner not be previously divorced the first reason that comes to mind would be... -he wants to marry in a Church wedding.. and participates in a religion that will not allow those that are divorced to wed again.. 

I remember my wife asking me about my prior marriage early on.. we were both previously married, but not in a Church.. thus nothing prevented us from doing so in the future.  We are also planning to marry in an Orthodox ceremony later this year and we both feel that this ceremony is even more binding than the ZAGS 'formality'... sort of like the ultimate commitment for us both.

I also get the feeling that ZAGS marriages in RU *may* be viewed by some at face value, namely 200 Rubles or so.. something like a formal 'living together'..  I'm just flinging wildly, but there may be reasons why.. possibly has something to do with propiska and previously government provided living quarters.. who knows.. 

Like I said, I don't condone such behaviour but simply do not have enough information to pass judgement on what has been posted here.  I can however 'see' where she may be 'coming from' in her actions.

I can also see where Scott is coming from. As a fellow ex-pat I understand how living in a foreign country for an extended period of time may change ways of thinking.  I have noted the 'no tolerance' attitude expressed by many members here and agree that this would be proper thinking in their country.. In the US I would never even think about running a red light or not wearing a seat belt.. here it is quite different.. I am the only one wearing a seat belt and at times have been honked at for not running a red light or stop sign at an empty intersection.

Fact is that there is a lot more 'grey' in many places on this planet.. we black/white folks have to learn to accept and deal with it.

Again a bit in a rush.. BBQ pork chops tonight.. LOL!

[BillyB]

 She thought if she got married here nobody would know the wiser and she was ready to cut all ties to Russia anyway. 

Make sure her motivation to marry you is for you and not to run away from  Russia.

[DKMM]

I'm happy to answer more questions even though we have personally moved beyond this in our relationship.

For the record, she thinks I have little money.  She knows I have a good job but if she's after me for the money she knows that I'm the last guy that can bring her that.  I told her how I borrowed to pay for our last trip and our wedding will have to be small, and the honeymoon will be via a car to somewhere.  The truth is, my net worth is probably only about 50k, the real money is in my family and it stays there no matter what happens (as long as my parents are alive, and they should be for many more years to come).

Even though she is my fiance, and she had been out of a job for 2 months, she hasn't asked me for a dime.  She said she will support herself while still in Russia and has yet to hint of needing money although I know she's down to about 10,000 rub and her new job doesn't pay her till august 20th.  She lives in Moscow which ain't cheap either.  All her signs point to frugality, in fact she is worried I'm the one who will spend too much!

I have no feeling she is seeking to escape.  She told me on our trip its OK if I choose to live in Moscow instead.  She has MANY good friends there (and that's a good sign about a person) and they are not happy she's leaving.  Her family she loves and is very close to and they are pissed.  But at the same time, she has no faith in Russia's future based on her family's life savings getting wiped out twice in the 90s.   still, she is a manager at a company and recognizes that she would have to work a crap job here and make the same amount as she does right now in moscow.  Her real hope though is to settle down in a couple years and be a mother (which is my goal as well).  If any motivation describes her desire other than love for me, its that she wants a family and sees me as her best bet at that.

Also, for me a divorce is not a dealbreaker.  My first TR to St. pete last year involved me falling for a girl who I knew was divorced.  It didn't bother me because she was so great I was willing to overlook it.  In fact, these girls marriages aren't much different than girls I've dated here that lived with guys.

BC interesting comments.  She told me that she wants to marry in a church which involves more responsibilities such as a life long commitment that you speak of.  I feel the same way.  We plan to raise a family in a church too, even though we both don't go to one at the current time (sounds strange I know).  She only did the ZAGS thing in the past and does not want just a civil marriage to me.

My spidey sense is on full bore and I'm looking for anything else suspicious but I sense nothing so far.  And I always had this feeling she was hiding something from the very beginning too, so maybe that was just her one big thing and that's it.

Its so great to have all these opinions on here to bounce around in my head.  This is a situation that I couldn't talk to my friends and family here about because I'd rather not tell them about it.

[I/O]

I have noted the 'no tolerance' attitude expressed by many members here and agree that this would be proper thinking in their country..

And........where would they ultimately live when they are together? BC, I understand exactly where you are comming from and I, even during travels have noted the same thing, hence my intolerance of many aspects of some other cultures.  They have nothing of use nor gain to me and therefore I choose and can afford to avoid and ignore them.

This is not casual slip of the tongue.  It was, regardless of what we don't know, as reported by the author, a bare faced lie on a very important subject. Values generate such actions and there is probably a half dozen basic values which need to concur for a relationship to survive.  In my view, truthfulness is number one.  If you can't rely on the other telling you the truth, you can't completely rely on anything about them.

There ain't nothin' grey about this one.  IMO she crossed a line which can only be crossed once in any relationship.  There is no comming back from the other side of that line. If one crosses it, it can only be on the way out the door so to say.

DKMM:  I've just read your recent post and I gotta say I am all but speechless.  (Many would say thats a good thing) Realistically you probably can't afford this caper even if everything went perfectly.  The risk factor as a result of her errrrrrrrrrr embarrassing secret is now substantially higher. You certainly don't seem to have the financial wherewithall to hoe the row if anything goes wrong.

She says she will support herself even without a job? Doesn't that make you wonder?  Women have an advantage over us guys in this area.  They always have something they can sell if they choose.
 
I/O