researcher introduction

[jen]

Good morning,

Well, I don't know anything about the cynical mini-skirt post, and I don't believe I have any colleagues participating anywhere near here...nor will I tell any of them the specifics of where I am working...

As for the course material you found, yes, that was me. I was co-teaching the course with a professor of English/Women's Studies, and she brought in this quiz as an "experiential" aspect of the course. She leaned more towards getting students to share/examine personal experiences than I do. I tend to work more from reading anthropological case studies and discussion/analysis of those. In any case, her point with this assignment was simply to get people to reflect upon the categories with which they identify, because part of what we are always doing when talking about gender is defining categories of identity and giving meaning to them. 

Regarding IMBRA, I don't have a final conclusion about this. In fact, I am more interested in the debates surrounding it -- how people are defining their positions -- than in the law itself, in the sense that I am not a legal scholar nor a quantitative sociologist who could provide a definitive answer about the issues IMBRA is designed to address. While I have to believe that the people who advocated for the law had the best interests of women's safety in mind, I will say that in the course of this research I have read many persuasive critiques of the statistics they have used and arguments they have brought to bear. I have also been told by agency executives that the background information men are required to submit to them early on in the process is not effective in preventing anything -- the visa stage is more important and appropriate -- and this seems convincing to me too.  Finally, I have not come across anything in my research so far that indicates that the "abusive" population of international daters is any more than a small minority, and I have met many nice people along the way. Public and policy world perceptions about international dating may often be based more on preconceptions than actual experience with the participants, which is why I am doing this kind of research.

Hope this helps.  The questions are a little overwhelming, but I will continue to answer them as well and as openly as I can.

J.

[jen]

p.s. I just looked back at that survey my colleague had assigned and remembered that it actually was designed in part to teach about the views of key feminist icons -- historical figures such Virginia Woolf, etc.  You will see that a wide range of positions is described there, but all of the blurbs are written in a pretty tongue-in-cheek, opinionated, black-and-white kind of way; which in my opinion does not represent very well the views of most feminists or even, necessarily, the ones that they are meant to describe...for whatever that is worth.

[Nat]

Nat,

 I am going to agree and disagree with you on the economic reasons ladies are looking to leave. While I do agree that generally in the large cities things have improved in the more rural areas things have become much worse. We were in Perm, Saransk, Omsk and near Krasnoyarsk not long ago and life throughout rural Russia is still very difficult maybe more difficult than it was under Soviet rule.

Ok, I won’t argue, because I have no acquaintances in rural Russia – only from Moscow and S.P... They say things are becoming much better. But you must be right about the rest of Russia…

The same in Ukraine. I believe the government claimed annual inflation rate is running at around 10%, with the number in reality, on the front lines in the cities and villages running much, much higher. (Much like our U.S. unemployment numbers.)

In Ukraine prices are growing, yes, and they are growing very fast. But salaries are growing too. For example, in Donetsk: if 3 years ago 100$ a month salary was considered to be a really good luck, now even 300$ a month don’t satisfy most people with university education. Not to mention Kiev, where salaries are much-much bigger. I can’t say about western Ukraine, though. They don’t have industry there, so things can be much worse with salaries.

Typical pension is around 400hr ($80)/month. It's now not uncommon to see 250hr ($50) gas bills in the winter, leaving about $7.00/week for food, electricity, medication, etc.

Gas: 200 hrn for 3-roomed flat. Well, it’s only 3 months a year, it’s not for gas, but for central heating. But I have to agree that monthly payments for everything which is connected with an apartment are rather high.

Btw, I was told by a USA friend that in the USA nobody relies on state pensions, because they are quite low too, so everybody tries to make their own investments to provide their life after retireing. Is it true?

I am sure Kevina will disagree, she says FSU women earn enough to keep western men as sex slaves

Well, Mir, there are such women, but I think they can be found only in Moscow and Kiev

[Admin]

Hope this helps.  The questions are a little overwhelming, but I will continue to answer them as well and as openly as I can.

J.

Jen,

I hope you don't mind my popping in - but I just had to chuckle a bit when I read that last part.

Not so much an "I told you so" - as a 'SEE WHAT I HAVE TO DEAL WITH!'   

I think what you have encountered so far is just about what I anticipated. They guys here are, for the most part, genuinely interested in being understood and portrayed in a fair and balanced manner. Like any community - where you work, where you live, your professional affiliations, wherever groups gather with a common interest - RWD has many different influences and pressures. We have members who are highly intelligent - some are analytical and logical, others are more emotive. Some are romantics, and some are driven by principles. A few are pretty funny - sometimes. A few are really intense. Some probably need professional help of some sort (and no, I will NOT name names  ). In other words, the RWD community is probably not too dissimilar from any other grouping of people you might describe as a "community" - but that seems like your area of expertise in cultural anthropology, so maybe I'd best leave those observations to you to make.

In any case, I think part of the reason you are receiving the probing questions is because people really want to believe that you will treat them (us) fairly. As I've explained to you, we have seen a great many 'researchers' come to the various discussion fora over the years, and I cannot recall a single one who produced a report which seemed, to me, a balanced and accurate portrayal. Better, would be one in which there were genuine insights gained through objective observation and analysis. We are still waiting - and hoping - that someone will come along without an agenda, and who is able to produce a fair and balanced report. A positive one would even be nicer 

Take care,

- Dan

[catzenmouse]

Some probably need professional help of some sort (and no, I will NOT name names  ).

You're just jealous because the Voices only talk to ME! 

Jen,

 This is a fine example of "Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it!"

 I'm keeping an open and hopeful mind (when the Voices let me) about you and do appreciate the detailed answers that you have given so far. This is a tough crowd and the jury will be out for quite some time.

Ken

[jen]

Hi Dan (and Ken),

Yep, well it is about as you warned me to expect  , and I completely understand that people have concerns and why. I'm grateful to those who are willing to engage, even if it means giving me a bit of a hard time. I hope we will build some mutual understandings through this process.

I am curious as to whether you and/or others on the site have read Nicole Constable's book. I recently spoke with someone else active in this general community who mentioned it as a balanced analysis that deserved greater attention than it has gotten so far.

j.

[TigerPaws]

jen,

Nicole Constable's books all seem to be devoted to the Asian realm, additionally the author uses the term "Mail Order Bride" throughout her books. I believe I can speak for most on the board that any reference to our ladies being a Mail Order Bride will be take in a very negative manor. I understand this is and has been the "term" for seeking a lady overseas but to the best of my knowledge no one on this board has ever ordered their bride by mail.

Asia and the FSU are totally different cultures and environments, any comparison would be grossly unfair and misleading.

TigerPaws

[Sohkay]

Jen,

A suggestion for you. You've made your introduction. Maybe now is a good time to start a thread on a particular subject that's of interest to you about this process. Maybe even a subject that might help you reach some type of logical conclusion for some small part of what it is you want to know. Let's finish part of your paper!

[Admin]

Hi Dan (and Ken),

Yep, well it is about as you warned me to expect  , and I completely understand that people have concerns and why. I'm grateful to those who are willing to engage, even if it means giving me a bit of a hard time. I hope we will build some mutual understandings through this process.

I am curious as to whether you and/or others on the site have read Nicole Constable's book. I recently spoke with someone else active in this general community who mentioned it as a balanced analysis that deserved greater attention than it has gotten so far.

j.

Jen,

That book has been recommended to me as well, but I have not yet read it. I *did* notice it included amongst the references in that Schaeffer-Grabiel article I sent you, and that author describes the work as the "only exception" in a body of works which "emphasize the exploitation of poor women in developing countries by Western men as part of the sexual trafficking trade..."

Interesting that a single 2003 book would be the "only exception" to an obviously over-hyped and ridiculous assertion. The sad part is - that article is among the most oft-cited works on the internet. It is shocking to those of us who are deeply involved in this pursuit, that rational people seem all too willing to buy-in to the kinds of comments which can ONLY come from a zealous (and incredibly exaggerated) perspective - but they do.

I guess this serves to reinforce the point I made earlier - that there have been very few, if any, scholarly works which provides a valid and balanced perspective. To accuse those of us at RWD (or Planet-Love before RWD) as exploiters of women and part of sexual trafficking trade - is more than a little insulting - AND - it is patently false.

- Dan

[jen]

Hi,

I agree that Russia and Asia would have some differences, which is part of why I have something to add to the scholarship...but presumably, in terms of larger debates about international dating and legislation, etc., there are overlapping issues.  So I was curious to hear about your overall take. I think you are right about the "mail-order bride" term, and I imagine that Constable used it because it is familiar to people -- but I think that her account undercuts the assumptions embedded in the term (see Dan's comment). You might notice that she usually uses the phrase in quotes, indicating her intended distance from the term.

Thanks Sohkay, you are nice to suggest that we might be able to move on a bit. I wanted to give everyone a chance to say whatever they wanted to say or ask, but of course we don't have to end this thread either. Anyway, I will start a new thread with a question for discussion sometime this weekend.

j.

[Sohkay]

...You might notice that she usually uses the phrase in quotes, indicating her intended distance from the term.

Great. Then forge some new ground Jennifer and start treating the term "mail order bride" as you might treat the terms "lesbo", "kike" or "spic". Start a new paradigm and relegate this insulting and inappropriate MOB term to the dustbin. I know you're modeling after Constable's work, but why start out making the same mistake she did. I mean, it's not as if her readership COULDN'T understand what she was talking about if she didn't use it. So, you need not gear your work to the lowest common denominator, like some reality television show and think that you must use offensive terms in order for Joe and Jane Sixpack to understand.

[jen]

Well, I am not planning on use the term and have not in the past, except possibly in reference to the media furur surrounding *so-called* "mail-order brides." I can't say why she held onto that term; she used it (in quotes) in the title of her book, but not as a neutral term throughout the book as far as I recall. In any case, I'm not modeling after her, necessarily; I came to her book after I had already begun the project and found that she expressed many ideas I had also been thinking about. Anyway, so -- drop the term "mail-order," I'm with you on that. I don't think your beef is with me on this one!

[ecr844]

"Jen,"

     You mention that you have 'seen' a different side of this experience since starting to write about it. That you have learned that the 'perception' and the reality are quite different from one another. So why did your 'first paaper' on the subject not reflect this. Additionally, if indeed your work reflects these new experiences and 'findings' which are contrary to what a number of your acemic colleagues have published. How do you plan to weather and or deal with the resulting controversy of 'publishing the reality'?

     Additionally have you given any thought of looking at the 'sucessful' long term married couples who have gone through this endeavor and are still going strong? Many of these people may not fit the 'published stereotype', but would add an interesting perspective don't you think?

ECR844

 

[Sohkay]

Jen,

I have no "beefs".

Just a couple of duck breasts in orange marinade.

And, like you, they will get a little grilling.

[jen]

ECR, which "first paper" do you mean -- the one to which I posted the link? My perspective might not be the same as yours there, but it does differ from the public perception and makes a point of putting aside some of those assumptions to see what people are actually expressing...my perspective continues to evolve, but from the beginning I was somewhat skeptical about the media representations and looking to see what I could learn from people who care about this issue.

Indeed, I've been speaking lately to some happily married couples and would be happy to speak with more.

[TigerPaws]

jen,

 I agree you should start a question specific thread and if you can handle to heat more than one thread but be sure to bring your flame retardant panties :burnedup: because some topics are hotter than others.

TigerPaws

[jen]

Got it. I may take the weekend off, but by Monday I'll be back with a new thread.

Thanks for all the responses.

[ecr844]

ECR, which "first paper" do you mean -- the one to which I posted the link? My perspective might not be the same as yours there, but it does differ from the public perception and makes a point of putting aside some of those assumptions to see what people are actually expressing...my perspective continues to evolve, but from the beginning I was somewhat skeptical about the media representations and looking to see what I could learn from people who care about this issue.

Indeed, I've been speaking lately to some happily married couples and would be happy to speak with more.

"Jen,"

     Yes I was referring to the link and 'draft' provided by you here. I also noticed you neatly skirted the last two questions as well. I guess I was wondering whether you thinking has evolved from below <just a few quick quotes and or examples> :
 

 
The global asymmetries of wealth that underlie such commerce are clear enough: marriage migration tends to flow West and North rather than East or South, and it is “First World” men who are establishing links with “Second” and “Third World” women, apparently testifying to what Karen Kelsky has called the “global phallic authority” of the white, western male (2001: 188). In the course of my ethnographic and secondary research on Russian-American matchmaking3, almost every source or informant consulted – from the agencies’ clients and executives to U.S. policy studies that target “international marriage brokering” as a gateway for the abuse and exploitation of immigrant women –agrees that post-Soviet economic instability is among, if not the, main reason for Russian women’s willingness to leave their homelands and venture abroad for marriage.

     Given this imbalance, it is easy to see why much of the discussion about international matchmaking in political science, gender studies, and public policy has centered around worries that so-called “mail-order brides” are easy prey for the men upon whom they will be dependent for visa status should they succeed in migrating to the U.S. – men who may prove to be physically or emotionally abusive (Hughes 2001, Scholes 2002; cf. Suzuki 2006).4 These men are said to be seeking abroad the “traditional” women they have had trouble finding in post-feminist America.

     The other reason why I asked the secondary questions was I noticed that you hadn't cited many positive sources (If in fact they even exist in academia)about this endeavour which leads one to wonder if this next paper will maintain the status quo and continue the trend. This may be especially interesting as you've stated here that <paraphrased> you've had some interesting and surprising experinces and learned some new things even with the tour groups. these experiences have led you to believe that the 'published' norm and the reality of this process are quite different. Perhaps what a few of us may be look at and wondering about is what exactly the evolution of your thinking has been from your past? Also, will you have the ability and intestinal fortitude to stand up against the majority of your colleagues and their perceptions and get this 'alternative view' actually published?  additionaly I am curious as to whether you believe that Russia is a 3rd world country or not?

   I guess one of things I have alluded to as well as some of the others here but have yet to say is the following. "I/we" are looking for someone who will look at the entire picture of this endeavour and publish an unbiased paper with ALL of the FACTS, even if it means going against previously published academic papers conclusions and models as well as assumptions already cemented in place by their bias. Based on what I've read thus far of your works, and contrary to what you've written here (anecdotally) . I fail to see where this other view which you claim to be seeing is being or will be presented. Hence my personal and perhaps some others here skepticism about your project and it's 'results'. Are you the scientist that is will to challenge these perceptions and stay true to the data you collect and publish it as such?

Thanks in advance,
ECR844


*** For those interested, more info and background can be obtained here.
http://www.irex.org/programs/stg/research/04/patico.pdf  and http://monarch.gsu.edu/anthropology/people/patico.html ****

[Tristan]

Greetings,

I am the administrator of www.onlinedatingrights.com, a website devoted to getting out the truth about IMBRA and defeating it.  I am a lawyer and I devote considerable time to this effort.  I earn no money from it; I guess you could say it is a hobby.

I have also been a member of this board for some time, and I have a Russian wife.  I am personally acquainted with Dan, the admin here.

One of the things we have hoped for at my website is real academic research on international relationships.  Most of the research has been ersatz and done by special interests.  NGOs and women's shelters have published studies claiming to prove that we are all losers/abusers and the women all helpless and innocent using unscientific methods, logical fallicies for premises and conclusions, misleading or false statistics and opinions disguised as fact.

So it was to my delight when Preston Steckel, president of European Connections, the plaintiff in the GA suit with whom I have discussed his case and others (not yet announced), gave me the name of a woman who did her PhD dissertation on international marriages.  I was delighted because when I read the dissertation I realized that this woman proved scientifically what I already knew: that this activity was sound and often productive for all parties. 

Then, I discovered Nicole Constable's book, Romance on a Global Stage which is very much like the PhD dissertation.  Both authors spent two years interviewing hundreds of American men, foreign women, domestic and international NGOs and women's groups, government officials and owners of many dating companies.  They both went on tours abroad, lived abroad, hung out with couples.

Both of them told me the same important thing: when they started the research they held the opinion that the men were losers/abusers and the women helpless and poor (actually the latter is not true in Prof Constable's case as she correctly pegged the women), and during the research they completely changed their minds!

Now, what makes these women, and Jen, different from other researchers?  Their discipline and their research methods.  These women are not in the women's studies department, they are not even in the sociology department.  They are anthropologists.  The differences are crucial and considerable.  They are Margaret Meads of Coming of Age in Samoa fame.  They are interested in examining the human condition and not judging it.  And they are not writing a report from internet sources and Tahirih Justice Center statistics.  They actually go out and eat, drink and laugh with the natives (that's us, guys).  (I think Jen got off on a wrong foot by stating that she is a "researcher" which is true, instead of stating that she is an anthopologist with a PhD and a professor at a university, which is also true but which sets her apart from the other so-called researchers who have come here.  And if anyone writes crap about international relationships, I will be the first one to say so.  See my dissection of two ridiculous law review articles here: http://www.online-dating-rights.com/forum/index.php?topic=960.0)

Do they come with biases? Sure, they are human.  But they don't have to prove anything.  They just have to research and record.  They look good with their peers if they are thorough, not if they opine some politically correct position, or any position.

So what do I do?  I give them every bit of information I have.  I know that anyone who really sees what we do will never condemn it.  I want women like these to tell our story to the world, and I will help them.  BTW, I contacted Jen after hearing that she had interviewed Preston Steckel and I introduced her to Dan, the admin here.

Here are some quotes from the Constable book.  In the coming months I will be telling politicians, kneejerk feminist leaders and others about this book.  (It is possible they already knew about it as it was published in 2003 and supressed discussion of it, but to be sure the pols don't know about it, nor does the media.)

"Men and their perspectives, I learned, are - like the women - often misunderstood or glossed in stark and stereotypical terms."
 
"I have come to see the men involved in correspondence relationships as a very diverse group of people; many are decent and well-intentioned human beings who have learned a great deal in the process of their relationships."
 
"Many went to great lengths to ensure their partner's comfort and happiness in the United States."
 
"Troubling to some critics is that many women who opt to marry US men express a preference to remain at home and not to work if there is no financial incentive to do so, and a willingness to define themselves primarily as wives and mothers."
 
"Mail order brides are often depicted as buying into images of their own subservience and marrying out of economic depression.  These views are seriously flawed for their orientalist, essentializing and universalizing tendencies, which reflect many now-outdated feminist views of the 1970s."
 
"Anti-trafficking NGOs often include mail order brides among the ranks of trafficked women.  Definitions of mail order brides, as discussed below, are often so broad as to be meaningless." 
 
"Women may quite literally put their best face forward, but the market metaphor [that women are being sold] should not be taken literally in this context.  Would this metaphor be applied to western women and men who use dating services or place personal ads, or does it reflect more pejorative assumptions about foreign or Third World women?"
 
"Assuming that Asian women are objects who are bought and sold...is not only a bad feminist argument, but it is one that fits with the most demeaning and essentializing images of mail order brides.  Such images rob women of their ability to express intelligence, resistance, creativity, independence, dignity and strength."
 
"Overall I argue that women involved in correspondence relationships are not merely pawns of global political economy or the victims of sexual exploitation, nor are men simply the agents of western sexual imperialism."

"Scholars and critics often read 'sexiness' into women's clean-cut, morally conservative, and highly respectable representations of themselves.  That men also claim to look for and to see 'respectability' in these images must also be recognized."

"...some have not fully appreciated the way in which these images often are not explicitly sexual but rather are associated with ideas of love, 'family values', and 'traditional' gender roles."

"Men's ideals often resemble conservative family-values advocates'notions of heterosexual, married, male-headed nuclear families as the 'foundation' of US society and the basis of the future well-being of the nation."

"Like INS regulations, critics often claim to be protecting the rights of women, but their arguments may in fact serve to curtail women's (and men's) opportunities to shape the direction of their own lives as they see fit.  It seems ironic that borders are policed not only by the INS but also indirectly by some women's organizations, academics and middle class professional Filipinos in the United States and abroad."

"The part of the picture I have focused on does not tell the whole story, but it depicts a side that is rarely told and thus in need of telling."

[KenC]

Tristan,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and incouraging information.

Guys,
I too am suspicious of "researchers or "journalists" that come here and probe our brains.  I have yet to see any real positive actions come from the effort.  But what do we have to lose in relaying our stories? 

Dan has done a thorough "background check" on Jen (or at least as good as possible) and his instincts tell him that she could be the voice of reason for which we all hope.  Someone to report the facts of this process without the feminist hype that is typically attached.  I for one will give Jen as much information as she is willing to take from me, if she so chooses.  Maybe this is the time an accurate portrayal of this process will be documented.  There is always hope.

Jen,
If you are interested in my story as a man married almost 8 years to a RW 25 years younger, please feel free to PM me.  However you want to correspond will be OK to me.
KenC

[jen]

Hi all,

OK, a few more comments before I really do sign off for the weekend.

To ECR, I wonder whether you read the entire paper? I might not present the "positive" view you would be hoping for there, but the quote you cited is somewhat misleading on its own -- in that I was laying out that common view of why international dating is problematic, explaining why that view is understandable enough on the face of it, and then going on for the rest of the paper to raise some questions about it. Indeed, the quote you cited ends with a mention of how American men are looking for the "traditional" women they have had trouble finding in post-feminist America, and for the rest of the paper I am actually discussing the problems with this view. I am pointing out that Russian women's "traditional" nature may not be what western commentators are assuming, and American men's desire for someone more "traditional" may not be what the critics think, either.  So the paragraph you cited is actually part of a rhetorical move, saying: OK, you think you know the story here, but then going on to say: actually, things are much more complicated than this.  I am now thinking more about how, as I continue writing, I should revise such passages to make my overall stance in the paper more immediately clear.

When I first got started on this research topic, all I had seen published about it were the few policy studies and news articles that were out there, and I was pretty sure that there was more to be said that was less sensational and more sympathetic to the people involved, and more understanding of their experiences. Soon after, I learned about Simons' dissertation, and after that, Constable's book. (These are the works Tristan cites above.)  Simons' dissertation is as yet unpublished, but Constable's work has caused no stir in the anthropology world and in fact has been well received, as far as I know.  I don't know whether either of these would strike you as "positive" representations or not -- it's tough for me to judge -- but they do seem to me quite vindicating, making the point in essence that men who are seeking foreign wives are essentially just trying to be happy and don't deserve the bad rap they have gotten (see Tristan's quotes again).  In other words, *of course* I'm planning to present what is really happening as I see it, and I will strive to do so without depending upon preconceived notions. I don't expect to have to weather an academic storm to do that, but if it should come to that, OK. 

Thanks, Tristan, for your comments about my methodologies and intent as an anthropologist (as distinct from other kinds of research). I really do appreciate the opportunities to engage -- I'm not interested in judging from afar -- so even all of these challenges on this board are a learning experience for me and for my research.

I am not "one of you," and perhaps it will be impossible for me to produce an analysis that any one player in this debate will feel 100% on the same page with.  (I could say the same thing to people on all sides of the debate, in fact, because feminist or not I am trying to raise questions about the policy's worlds assumptions.)  But I can hope that I am able to represent everyone with enough respect and understanding that no one will feel further maligned.

Thanks everyone, have a good weekend,
Jen

p.s. Just read KenC's post in the meantime -- thanks, and I will get in touch soon.

[BC]

Greetings,

I am the administrator of www.onlinedatingrights.com, a website devoted to getting out the truth about IMBRA and defeating it.  I am a lawyer and I devote considerable time to this effort.  I earn no money from it; I guess you could say it is a hobby.

Greetings Tristan.. and Jen

Might want to skim http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5183.0

Welcome and cheers.

[ecr844]

"Jen and Tristan,"

  Thanks for your explanations and clarifications as they cleared up some thimgs for me. I guess in a way having been exposed and regularly reading clinical literature I approached your articles (yes, I read each and everyone of them I could find) and my evaluation of them in a similar albeit modified fashion.

Enjoy your weekend,
ECR844

[BillyB]

Regarding IMBRA, I don't have a final conclusion about this. In fact, I am more interested in the debates surrounding it -- how people are defining their positions -- than in the law itself,

IMBRA is hastily created after the Anastasia King death and poorly designed by feminists. While it is designed to protect foreign women, it hurts domestic women. I believe tax dollars should protect citizens and be fair to all people. This law does neither. The root of the problem is a small percentage of men who are abusive and controlling to any woman that would have them. While IMBRA has made it harder for these men to get a foreign wife, these men will in turn have to settle for a domestic woman. IMBRA does nothing to curb their abusive behavior except divert it from one group of women to another.

[Admin]

IMBRA is hastily created after the Anastasia King death and poorly designed by feminists. While it is designed to protect foreign women, it hurts domestic women. I believe tax dollars should protect citizens and be fair to all people. This law does neither. The root of the problem is a small percentage of men who are abusive and controlling to any woman that would have them. While IMBRA has made it harder for these men to get a foreign wife, these men will in turn have to settle for a domestic woman. IMBRA does nothing to curb their abusive behavior except divert it from one group of women to another.

We should probably develop a new thread to discuss more, the various positions with regard to IMBRA.

That said - my fundamental objection to IMBRA is that it does not, in fact, serve anyone's purpose. Further, it places limits and hurdles which interfere with fundamental freedoms - and, in fact, is probably unconstitutional in that it directly interferes with the implicit right of association.

As a firm believer in the rights and freedoms of people to make their own choices - this law stifles those freedoms - ostensibly, for protection of immigrant women. Problem with the pro-IMBRA argument is - there are no valid statistics to support their claims - nor any way to determine the efficacy of the law now enacted. There is at least as much likelihood that any protections of immigrant women, simply displaces any abuse of those same women back to their countries of origin - probably at a much higher incidence rate than if they were to immigrate to the US. There is a fairly compelling argument to be made that the true motivation behind enactment of the law had nothing to do with protection of immigrant women - but was, rather, motivated by domestic women's fears of losing out to foreign women.

Others, such as Tristan, are far more familiar with the legal arguments to be made in opposition of the law - but it has always struck me as the over-reaching result of paranoid feminists. Just my opinion, of course.

- Dan