Experiences with American women -- a question from jen

[Muj]

Muj,
I am not here to provide you with links because you are too lazy to read the thread.  When you interject yourself into a conversation, maybe you should know what that conversation is about.  You shouldn't expect everyone to go through a review of what has already been said just because you came into the conversation at midpoint.  Every question you asked has been asked and answered.

If you had taken the time to read, you would have known that jen not only traveled to Russia, but lived there for some time.  To take a challenging tone to her in this area, is, well foolish.
KenC

KenC,
Ben Franklin makes a good point, so follow it. 

[Zhena]

Zhena,
If your hubby is too busy to keep up with the flow of information that has already been posted why should the group stop and review things already said?  The questions were not stupid the first time they were asked. jen has answered every question he asked.  Why is it her burden to answer them again and not your husband's responsibility to just read the thread and understand what has been said before interjecting himself (in a challenging way I might add) into the conversation?  There is a saying that has been credited to Ben Franklin:  "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".
KenC

You know what the normal people do what they dont want to stop and review the things? They just ignore the question,or,if they more loyal,they give a link on the topic with the answers. Thats what personally I do usually. To reread all forum just to find out whos jen-sorry. Of course we found that already just for a curiosity. And if you so respectful person and so thrill about jen,how come you call someone a fool? All your culture level appears false after this. I sincerely advise you to improve it-though I doubt you ll listen You re the smartest one,isnt it Anyway,I am not feeling like want to continue to write in this topic and help in someones scientific researches. Sorry Jen. If the people want others to answer their questions,they usually support the conversation and explain what others want to know. Or if they dont want to do that-they pay the money for the people to speak out
Anyway,wish a good day to everybody and be happy and kind.

[Jazzyclassy]

Exactly Jazzy.  Russian mothers would tell the same to their daughters, too.

Oh yes and mothers as well , they can be even harder and tougher ahahha telling other things which can be an absolute shock for our american parents, it is bad that our parents are telling such things to us sometimes cos it raises the complex and gives low self esteem but at the same time, if a child left all alone in the whole world he will never die , he will survive cos he got used to count on himself/herself without any rich daddies big wallet and assistance

It is better to keep things in balance with up brining kids cos telling that you are a Barbie girl all the time will turn a girl into victim of fashion or something
and telling that you are a disaster not a child will make the kid go and hang himself somewhere on the tree

our parents can do such terrible things in upbringing kids... god....

So do not blame it all on nation american women or russian women , it is all about childhood and habits  and up bringing

[DKMM]

I know exactly what you ladies are talking about.  A lot of kids here are being told they are special and amazing when they aren't doing anything special at all.  Praise should be saved for when its earned and not used everyday just to build up a kid's self esteem.

But I don't see how that reflects on KenC at all... I'm not looking to get involved though.

[KenC]

It's all so  sad

You know guys I was thinking of the fact that you can not blame American women for being who they are , in the end of the days , such type of women are being raised by many American, western  father as well like you, so do not you think it is fair enough to blame both parties
In every situation both sides are to blame

Russian fathers usually  never ever call their daughters any kinda princesses of the Universe and never make them feel that they are the greatest of all  and that they should count only on their own in order to achieve the goals they've made in their lives.

and what can we observe in the USA? oh well Ken C will start again his old old old prehistoric song that if the person has never been to the USA he/she simple is ignorant and does not know anything, well I am still living in the World am not isolated and I understand how American youth is being cherished and raised , parents do a lot of things for them......... so what are you expecting of some US women , if they always know that if something happens their Rich daddies will pay for everything and get them out of some incident?????


The other point , where is the guarantee that if he divorced his American wife, he wont divorce his Russian one? absolutely none, once Russian wife does something unappropriate ( like I do not know wont prepare dinner several times or something)according to his point of view she will be outdoors -vagabond

You know maybe Russian women  are different than American ones, but all I know women are women everywhere with their weak traits of the character , their emotional nature, it does not matter if she is Russian or American , it also depends on  man a lot , if his old wife is no longer of interest to him and her interests and striving for something , he will  close the eyes on the fact that she gave birth to his kids, raised them , in his eyes she will always be hysterical woman with bitching attitude and things

So why the h-ll you ever married her then aaaaa? I do not understand this, when people are pouring  evil and bad comments on their old partners , like they only remember bad things

Do not think that if you married to a Russian woman , you will like everything about her , there are a lot of issues you will have to understand and tolerate.......

and finally work on your own personalities , you are also not perfect......

Jazzy,
At least now even you can identify when you are speaking out an orifice other than your mouth!  You really do not have a clue.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

yeah KenC like you know everything about what is happening in Russia ....

I speak from my point of view, Who are you to shut me up?

i do not want to to get involved in your irritation though,recently I only notice that you keep shutting down people and  only critisizing and critisizing , like you do not know what to do else

For the information not only  I am tired of you been pissing off around here

what can I say else keep going this way , not expecting anything good from you at all ........

[KenC]

I know exactly what you ladies are talking about.  A lot of kids here are being told they are special and amazing when they aren't doing anything special at all.  Praise should be saved for when its earned and not used everyday just to build up a kid's self esteem.

But I don't see how that reflects on KenC at all... I'm not looking to get involved though.

DKMM,
I too see a one way attitude with most Americans raising their children in a protective bubble of everything that is positive with no accountability expected at all, let alone to allow their children to face the harsh reality of failure.  This usually results in some pretty mixed up young adults  when and if they go into the real world.  Both my son and daughter received a very balanced up bringing,  getting praised for their successes but also having their shortcomings brought to their attention.  Most importantly of all, IMO, they were taught to be accountable for their own actions  As a result, they both have become productive, successful, independent and responsible members of our society at a very early age.  And yes, this proud Poppa bursts his buttons with pride for both of them.
KenC

[KenC]

yeah KenC like you know everything about what is happening in Russia ....

I speak from my point of view, Who are you to shut me up?

i do not want to to get involved in your irritation though,recently I only notice that you keep shutting down people and  only critisizing and critisizing , like you do not know what to do else

For the information not only  I am tired of you been pissing off around here

what can I say else keep going this way , not expecting anything good from you at all ........

Jazzy,
Maybe some day you will understand, and then maybe not.  I would never debate your knowledge of Russia as my experience there is so small in comparason to your's.  The most I have ever done is explain when my wife's opinion differed from yours.  (That I do know something about)  You simply do not know what you do not know and your experience with AW and life in America is very limited.
KenC

[Gator]

Russian fathers usually  never ever call their daughters any kinda princesses of the Universe and never make them feel that they are the greatest of all  and that they should count only on their own in order to achieve the goals they've made in their lives.

That is sad!  No wonder many RW seek approval from older men.  How does that relate to the following:

A lot of kids here are being told they are special and amazing when they aren't doing anything special at all.  Praise should be saved for when its earned and not used everyday just to build up a kid's self esteem.

Children should be encouraged as much as possible, not discouraged.  If a parent operates as you suggest, DKMM, the parent should give his kids a great amount of attention so that the parent can "catch them" every time when they do something right and praise them immediately.   And a child needs to know that his parents love him/her no matter what he/she has done.

[Bluebell]

In Eastern Europe too parents try to protect their children as much as possible, and give them the maximum of all, within their possibilities, isn't that natural? I see more spoiled and undisciplined little children at home than in the West, but I would not make any generalization here, it is just a personal observation. However, I know families from USA where rich (and rich in the real sense of the word) daddy's princesses work as waitresses in summer holidays to learn discipline, respect for work and money early. I have seen in Romania many American young people on backpack trips, living in modest youth hostels, travelling around Europe, Asia, etc. on little money. I don't know if they were of rich or average parents, but these young people didn't seem to care much about money, comfort, they were there for learning about different cultures, people and to have fun. So, I would not say American youth are worse or more spoiled, with less discipline than Eastern Europeans, they have more opportunities and they live with them, that's all.

Jazzy, how would you feel when, for the same job performed, you would get less salary than your male collegues? Just because you are a woman. Or your job candidature is not accepted because you are female. Or after working hard 8-10 hours, you are expected by your husband to do all the housework, just because that is woman job, while he is watching tv or reading newspaper. Or you don't want children but you must have, because you are a woman. Etc. It is about choices, to be able to choose and make decisions for yourself, and not somebody else decide instead of you (just because you are a woman) how to live and what to do with your life. If you are able to do all this today, it is because once somebody was fighting for it. For women's rights. Due to them, today you are able to be whatever you want to b, to be proud of and enjoy your womanhood. Sadly, in some other parts of the planet, about many many million of other women we still can't say this. Feminists work is necessary, even today, it's a pity that some of them abuse it and most people see it in such a negative light.
  

[BC]

Totally agree with you BC.  In my first marriage, we both decided that my wife would stay home with the kids at least until they started school (5 years).  Well 5 turned into 10 and 10 turned into 15.  Which I really didn't care because I was making plenty of money, but when the kids hit their mid teens and didn't need a Mom-mobile, she (my ex wife) was lost. She had no career, no education and well, no life outside the home.  She floundered a great deal and we ended up divorced.  Even though I harped on her to plan for her future (to get a degree or start a business) she didn't and of course in the end that too was my fault! :noidea:
KenC

Ken,

Not harping on ya but it sounds a bit like your relationship hit a 'rut' early on..  Of course you were part of that relationship and probably learned quite a bit from it.  As a provider you may have done great, but in the role of partner, at least as you describe here - lacking.  I've also learned in the school of hard knocks that financial goals need to be balanced with relationship goals. 

Following the grain of this thread, don't you find yourself at this stage in your life in a much more flexible atmosphere that allows you to place priority for your relationship?  I believe being in such a position has a lot to do with this venture, indeed a 'second chance', not to righten the past but instead to prove what has been learned.

In life, we are all students regardless of age or position..  I think many get into trouble when they forget this simple fact.

DKMM,
I too see a one way attitude with most Americans raising their children in a protective bubble of everything that is positive with no accountability expected at all, let alone to allow their children to face the harsh reality of failure.  This usually results in some pretty mixed up young adults  when and if they go into the real world.  Both my son and daughter received a very balanced up bringing,  getting praised for their successes but also having their shortcomings braought to their attention.  Most importantly of all, IMO, they were taught to be accountable for their own actions  As a result, they both have become productive, successful, independent and responsible members of our society at a very early age.  And yes, this proud Popa bursts his buttons with pride for both of them.
KenC

Despite the circumstances within, it seems the product of your former relationship worked out well.. sincere congrats as parents.  I have, over the years, seen many examples of kids with above average possibilities and potential fail miserably..  indeed sad.  Some things in life simply cannot be bought.

I think many relationships would do much better with a bit less..  Yes, time is money, but money cannot buy time.  Looking back, I could almost judge the state of my relationships at any particular time by counting the zero's on the bank statements..

[Jazzyclassy]

             Jazzy, how would you feel when, for the same job performed, you would get less salary than your male collegues? Just because you are a woman. Or your job candidature is not accepted because you are female. Or after working hard 8-10 hours, you are expected by your husband to do all the housework, just because that is woman job, while he is watching tv or reading newspaper. Or you don't want children but you must have, because you are a woman. Etc. It is about choices, to be able to choose and make decisions for yourself, and not somebody else decide instead of you (just because you are a woman) how to live and what to do with your life. If you are able to do all this today, it is because once somebody was fighting for it. For women's rights. Due to them, today you are able to be whatever you want to b, to be proud of and enjoy your womanhood. Sadly, in some other parts of the planet, about many many million of other women we still can't say this. Feminists work is necessary, even today, it's a pity that some of them abuse it and most people see it in such a negative light.
       

I earn less than you can ever imagine and I am in some way got used to this and if I yell at my salary it is rare and I am comfortable with my choices and my role as a woman , I personally would choose to be millions of times mother than somebody stuck up witch a musculin traits business woman , it is even never a question and would never doubt my decision about being a mother it is a first priority to me!

[Jazzyclassy]

I am  not negative to anything, it is just I do not support feminism, maybe I am wrong but women without feminists views can achieve a lot

[jen]

Jen:  I read the paper you posted the link to in your intro thread and although you resort to the odd generalisation in that paper as is territorial in this whole discussion, I am of the opinon you have presented a far more balanced view than many have thus far.

I would also suggest the opinions of most of the men participating on this board might be a skew towards, if not be at the higher end of the broader group of men involved in the whole international introductions/marriage pursuit. JMO.

Hi I/O,
I'm glad you thought so.

Re: your other point, did you mean economically? Or in some other terms?

I'm still traveling and so do not have my usual access to email. So, I apologize everyone for being less present for the last few days and for the next several. I'm still making my way through the posts to date. A lot of interesting conversation has been emerging here.

Thanks, J.

[BC]

Even the die hard, true feminist does not necessarily have to give up her femininity.  Those that choose to do so create a new species..  transvestite with reversed social mannerisms.  I have absolutely no idea how a burning brassiere relates to the feminist movement.. obviously an action with sagging results.

A man who takes over household chores (getting more common) and child rearing while his wife works will certainly not be wearing a skirt and stockings.. or?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the ideals of feminism.. It is how they are interpreted and put into practice that really gets screwy.. pretty much the same that happens with religion, politics.. -and yes, even MOB scene.

[jen]

Sorry Jen. If the people want others to answer their questions,they usually support the conversation and explain what others want to know. Or if they dont want to do that-they pay the money for the people to speak out

Sorry if I was remiss in answering I question; I came on in a morning when that conversation had already played out. And for the past few days, I've been out of town (still am). Anyway, I am happy to answer questions and will be more active in doing so when I am back home mid-next week. J.

[I/O]

Re: your other point, did you mean economically? Or in some other terms?

Both to an extent, but most particularly social acceptability.

I/O

[IAmZon]

Generalizations are dangerous things.

When we say American women, we are really referencing many groups of women - just like with men.  The generalization of an American women is vastly different in these groups for instance ( I could go on and on)
1, 22 yo surfer girl in CA
2, 26 yo failed model working in cosmetics on Madison Ave, NY
3, 16 yo single mother with no education
4, 33 yo divorced professional in Charlotte, NC
5, 26 yo graduate student in Ann Arbor, MI
6, 40 yo right to lifer and born again Christian
7, All mid western women are much more grounded than the rest of the US, men too:)

With each group take into consideration financial means and family background ... generalizations are useful and useless simultaneously.


Are generalizations more valid if subscribing them to RW?  (I think maybe)

[Jack]

At least now even you can identify when you are speaking out an orifice other than your mouth!  You really do not have a clue.

KenC, you are wasting your time    if you think you can make any sense from a Russian woman who has only met one American woman in her life       and is going to try to offer advice in a thread  "Experiences with American women".     

Some people KenC just like to hear themselves talk        talk           talk       

[Bruno]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the ideals of feminism.. It is how they are interpreted and put into practice that really gets screwy.. pretty much the same that happens with religion, politics.. -and yes, even MOB scene.

BC, you have stay to much long in Europa... like you, i don't see the feminism like something wrong... and seriously, i think that FSU ladies are top feminist ladies... i don't know how they make but several of them are able to mix a good family life with child and successful career ( with previous high study !!! )...

In the communist periode, Russian women was with more right that our western side... by example, during the WWII, it was impossible to find someone like Lyudmila Pavlichenko ( more of 300 kills !!! ) in our western world... women was limited to be nurse or some "women" jobs...

Of course, all this was true in the early stage of communism... when RW was a real motor to the army, economy, etc...

Here, in Europa, we have feminist too... they wish the same right that men... but they accept the same "duty" too... when military term was existing in Belgium, they was ready to make own service... recently, they have accept to have the same retirment age that men ( 65 yo in place of 60 yo )... in law discremination due to sex is illegal... income for a determined work is fixed by law ( after convention with "work given" syndicat )... no difference between men or women...

Really feminism is nothing bad... but like in everything, extremism is bad... and it seem that USA have some extremist feminist, called "feminazi" who wish all the advantage that men have know during century but without given up advantage that women have know during century !!! Yes, i am for equal right... but not for women having more right !!!

By example, in case of divorce... here, it can happen that former husband can have the responsability of children... usually, co-parental right is used ( mean shared of decision and expense for kids )... yes, in case of equal right, a man can be a good parent like a woman...

But why speak about it... until now, i have never know a US women who was really able to understand what is the real feminism... for the US women, it is not about equal right but about reveange... reveange of the millenium of men domination... in so case, no peace is possible between the two sex...

Hey, you life in Italy... the "mamma" thing is the more sacred thing that you can find in Italy... Same Mafia respect it !!!

[TigerPaws]

Jazzyclassy,

 While you are very welcome to provide a Russian woman's perspective your limited to nonexistant knowledge of American women is neither welcome, needed, wanted or useful to this thread.

TigerPaws

[KenC]

Ken,

Not harping on ya but it sounds a bit like your relationship hit a 'rut' early on..  Of course you were part of that relationship and probably learned quite a bit from it.  As a provider you may have done great, but in the role of partner, at least as you describe here - lacking.  I've also learned in the school of hard knocks that financial goals need to be balanced with relationship goals. 

That "rut" you speak of was self induced by my ex's refusal to participate in our relationship in normal way.  The goal to have a wonderful relationship is fine, but it has to be the goal of both parties, not just one of them  There are many roles men and women play in this game we call marriage.  My ex was good to great in many areas, but in others she scored an "incomplete" due to nonparticipation.

Following the grain of this thread, don't you find yourself at this stage in your life in a much more flexible atmosphere that allows you to place priority for your relationship?  I believe being in such a position has a lot to do with this venture, indeed a 'second chance', not to righten the past but instead to prove what has been learned.

In life, we are all students regardless of age or position..  I think many get into trouble when they forget this simple fact.

Of course I have learned a lot since this relationship ended and constantly learn more, but prioritizing my relationship was something I learned at a very early age.  That is what made it so frustrating when my ex was so nonresponsive in this area.  Ever watch a train wreck in motion for 20 years?  But I have to tell you, I never gave up trying until she decided to have the "relationship" with someone else.

Despite the circumstances within, it seems the product of your former relationship worked out well.. sincere congrats as parents.  I have, over the years, seen many examples of kids with above average possibilities and potential fail miserably..  indeed sad.  Some things in life simply cannot be bought.

It is because of this very reason that I cringe when people refer to my "failed" first marriage.  Yes, it ended, but there were a lot of successes too.  Raising two great kids is at the top of that list of successes.
KenC

[BC]

Jazzyclassy,

 While you are very welcome to provide a Russian woman's perspective your limited to nonexistant knowledge of American women is neither welcome, needed, wanted or useful to this thread.

TigerPaws

Tiger,

Speak for yourself, but don't put words in my mouth.

Cool it willya?  Instead lets talk over a cool beer when you get here..

Cheers.

[Bruno]

Quote from: KenC on Today at 06:03:23
At least now even you can identify when you are speaking out an orifice other than your mouth!  You really do not have a clue.

KenC, you are wasting your time    if you think you can make any sense from a Russian woman who has only met one American woman in her life       and is going to try to offer advice in a thread  "Experiences with American women".     

Yep... wasting time... specially with so reply like KenC...

Jazzy have his own opinion based maybe on a very little of none experience... but people have eyes and are able to read... of course, what they read can be wrong or false ( like what usually people wrote about our communauty )...

But insult or attack will never resolve the problem... a gentleman will try to show to Jazzy that she is wrong withing a post having argument... insult lead only to hate and fight !!!

Myself, i have only 6 month experience in US, Texas... and i have only positive experience about American women in these periode... and there, people complain about US ladies in the big majority... it don't surprise me... it is not that the majority of US ladies are bad, it is more that us, the membership here, have know in the majority bad experience with US women... hey, i think that 99.9% of US men marry US women... that they are able to build happy family... a little part of %, us, have not find locally what we wish... and we seek internationaly...

My point related to these topic is that US feminism ( feminazi ) attack us... the very little part of % who are unhappy with local women... and it become really wrong when the "feminazi" use a very low % of our communauty for show that we are power killer, sex tourist or maniac... the majority of US men marry a US women... the majority of US men who marry a foreign bride are normal people and not a danger for these bride...

So, why these crusade against people like us, who are not one % of the population... and where not yet one % of us are bad men... best example is these forum... thousand of member and until now, only 2 or 3 case of sex tourist or maniac...

Related to Jazzy, and your/KenC comment's, it help in no way to resolve the problem... if you think that Jazzy is wrong, explain why... insult will change nothing... of course, insult is more fast type that intelligent reply... but if you keep it at these level, you are not better that your US feminazi who attack US men without real real reason or proof... both you are in the same mud pool, throwing there mud on everybody...

[TigerPaws]

Tiger,

Speak for yourself, but don't put words in my mouth. Honestly no reference to your comments

Cool it willya?  Uh! I have no beef with you, hopefully we will arrive in Italy by the 3rd week in August or the first week of September as we just arrived back in Ft. Lauderdale for 3 weeks of repairs, having crossed the Gulf Stream yesterday from the Bahamas.

TigerPaws

Instead lets talk over a cool beer when you get here..

Cheers.