What age would be preferrable to RW?

[WHHatton]

AnastassiaAsh it is very clear that you do not agree with an age difference of who knows what (I do not understand you problem with the choices of others) but in all reality it is none of your or any one else's business to say ANYTHING for or against the choice of other people.

Now if someone asked for your advise them that is between you and them but for you and other's to come to a public forum an suggest that there is something wrong with an age difference greater than you approve of is simply wrong. Again it is not your choice and that is your decision, other people will make their own choices.

People the world over marry and divorce for many reasons and it is no ones business to say if they were right or wrong.

[William3rd]

Amazing how this thread began with a question as to why Russian women searched abroad and ended up with a newbie diatribe how nobody can say squat in public.

Newbie, I am glad you learned to read as you mentioned that you could in your first post. Try a book on etiquette. You might make more friends.

[Gator]

Anastasia,

I agree completely with you that a large age disparity is full of risks, all else being equal.  And without reliable statistics I would agree with your intuitive feeling that marriages with a large age disparity have a higher percentage of divorce.  And I walked away from a loving RW because I thought she was too young for me. 

So what annoys me?  An attitude that you know what is best for everyone even though you have far less experience in life and relationships than almost everyone here. 

Quote from: Gator on Yesterday at 11:42:43 PM

AnastasiaAsh,
you ignored my comments on why an older man would make an even better husband than a younger man. 

 

I never said that, if i did it must have been a wrong wording or something like that. Maybe you are mixing it with somebody else's words.

Of course you never said that.  Here is what you ignored.

Anastasia Ash wrote,

Of course a man 20 years senior can be a good husband and a lover, but that would be an exception.

This is my first reply to you.  I take exception with your word "exception". 

I think a senior man can make a better husband than a less experienced man in the sense of being a mentor, sage, partner as well as provider of security and stability. 

I had other comments about lover, friend and father, but they really do not matter.  My point was that your mind is closed.

BTW, here are a few statistics obtained from a scientific study of marriages between RW and AM.  It was discussed on a similar board about four if not more years ago.  The study was never completed and published (the principal investigator died).

-  Currently, 52% of marriages fail within a year. 67% fail within two years.
-  60% of the women did not love their husbands when they married
-  99% of the men 'loved' their wives when they married.
-  Marriages that result from a proposal during or just after an initial meeting of two weeks or less fail within two years 97% of the time.

The men and women surveyed were sampled randomly without regard to age or age gap.  The age disparity parameter was not characterized.  Many readers doubted the validity of the study, believing it was fabricated.  We will never know.

[Turboguy]

I have to agree with WHH and Gator here.   To me Anastassia's closed mind stance is the equivalent of someone coming here and reading 10 posts or 100 and then proclaiming himself an expert on Russian American relationships and trying to tell others "How it is"   She has never been in an age gap relationship and her evidence is "heresay" which is not admissible in any court here.

One of the things that has helped me in my business is that sometimes I have been lucky enough to find what people were really talking about.   Lets say the core issues and not the symptoms.   If I transpose this to AA's situation my feelings are that there are people who have come to her and said my marriage is bad.  I married an older man and am unhappy.   In reality the situation is the woman (or man) married a man they knew for only a few days and the characteristics would have been ones that person always had or that they married someone they did not love in the hopes of a better life.    Take the ones she feels were unhappy because of age difference, remove the ones who were strangers when they married and remove the ones who were desperate and I have a feeling there won't be many left.

A few years ago I had a Ukrainian friend I helped out a bit during her divorce.   She blamed age difference for their breakup.   She liked to do things like go for walks and he liked to spend his evenings sitting in front of the TV sipping martinis and watching sports.   They had about a 15 year gap.   Was it age difference or did she marry a man who liked to spend his evenings sitting in front of a TV sipping martinis.   I think she had her sights set on me for a while but it went no where.   I was, by the way, 10 years older than her husband but of course I don't like to spend my evenings watching TV.  Actually VWRW and I often walk for about 3 hours a day.  Lots of times the age gap is an easy scapegoat. 

I am not saying there are not risks.   I do think if a couple has an age gap and makes sure they are in love and have no personal issues with it and if they spend enough time together to really know each other the risks in the near term are no more, and perhaps less than couples without an age gap.    Yes 10-20 years down (or anytime like any relationships) the line other issues may crop up and they need to be discussed understood.   Both need to go into the relationship with their eyes open.

There are risks in any marriage, with or without age gap, with or without culture differences.   We have all seen lots of train wrecks but I have seen few where age difference was discussed.     

[vwrw]

I've known plenty of people in my life that believe if they repeat themselves constantly and are the loudest then they are right and they are the winner of any argument. What I see is that they are just proving to the world around them that they cannot be flexible in their thinking and they do not value any opinion but their own, unless it agrees with them, regardless of how often they try to qualify it with a "Were (I guess that was supposed to be "Where") have I ever said my way is the best or only way?" type of phrase.

 Ken

I thought somehing Ken said to another young woman in another thread fit to Anastassia completely.   I think the method Ken talks about will not help Anastassia's beliefs to become real, as well it will not help her to win any argument.


 

[I/O]

Bottom line here is we have "Evidence based" questions comming up against "Gut feelings and Wishful Thinking".

Social norms would suggest Anasstasia would be correct, however I am surprised that she and others have come out so strongly on one side of this debate without any hard evidence.  Then I see comments such as hundreds of thousands and there endeth my interest in further dialogue. Gross, wishful exaggerations simply don't cut it in the world I move. I tend to read biographies rather than fiction......go figure.

I/O   

[KenC]

KenC, of course YOU are the proof, and maybe several others here, but there are hundreds if not thousands of men who burnt because of this age gap, how should we convert all this to numbers then? 1 in 10,000? i don't know.

Did you forget that other people are real proofs too, proof of mistakes and lost years and money and everything, there are many MANY more of those people than you and several other couples...

Oh, i am sorry, but i am getting tired in this thread...

Anastassia,
I think you are misunderstanding what is meant by "proof."  As I am living in an age gap marriage for some time now, I can easily identify a lot of the potential difficulties couples may encounter.

Easy, girl, I am supporting your line of thinking with my statement,


Gator,
The only statistic  I question is that 99% of the men loved their wives upon marrying them.  Change "loved" to "lusted" and I would agree.  I just don't know how the 99% is possible taking into consideration the couples that marry without really even knowing each other.  I guess my definition of "love" is different because in my book, you kind of need to know the person you "love."

Turbo,
Good point about the age gap being the scape goat reason for a failed marriage any time there is an age gap.  I have often said that if in the future Lena and I break up that the reason would not be because she is a RW.  The same could be said in regard to our age difference. Of course people would say that we were doomed from the beginning because of our ages regardless of the reason for the break up.  (Not that I see a break up anytime in the near future, just being theoretical here)
KenC

[jen]

BTW, here are a few statistics obtained from a scientific study of marriages between RW and AM.  It was discussed on a similar board about four if not more years ago.  The study was never completed and published (the principal investigator died).

-  Currently, 52% of marriages fail within a year. 67% fail within two years.
-  60% of the women did not love their husbands when they married
-  99% of the men 'loved' their wives when they married.
-  Marriages that result from a proposal during or just after an initial meeting of two weeks or less fail within two years 97% of the time.

The men and women surveyed were sampled randomly without regard to age or age gap.  The age disparity parameter was not characterized.  Many readers doubted the validity of the study, believing it was fabricated.  We will never know.

Gator,

Which study was this? Do you have info you could point me to -- the discussion thread you mentioned or any data about how to find the study (which must be hard given that it was never published, but maybe it is online somewhere)?

Re: the disagreements that have been brewing here, my own hope would be that everyone keep posting his/her opinions, even when they are not popular ones on the board. It seems to me that given the lack of meaningful statistics (and statistics themselves can be misleading, of course), everyone here is basing his/her statements on a combination of personal experience, direct observations of others' experiences (some have seen more than others), and some general values/understandings that are part of how you see the world. Those are exactly the things that I want to understand better and which I think are all too little examined in most things you can read on the subject. I am not going to take any one person's views as "fact" -- but taken all together, your statements will help me to create some new "facts" about what international relationships are all about and what the people involved think about them, with all the shared ideas and divergent experiences that might be involved there.  Whenever you are able to use concrete cases you know of as examples, that's great, but straight opinions are good too.

Just my way of saying, thanks for the thoughts from all sides.

j.

[Turboguy]

I have to agree with you about that 99% part Ken.

A long long time ago (when I was still married so that was a LONG time ago) we went to some lectures on love and romance.   Something the presenter said that stuck with me and may have some truth was:  "That we fall in love when we meet a person who fits fairly well with our dream of the kind of person we would like to marry"   I think there could be some truth in that and it would let us fall in love a little faster with a RW.   You hear about people talk about love at first sight.   I have to agree with the thoughts in your post, at first site you have no idea who you are falling in love with and after a 5 day or week visit you don't know much more.  

It is too bad there are not some good statistics on a lot of things but I guess we have to go with what we have which is little.  

[catzenmouse]

Statisticians with statistics (like bean counters with numbers) can manipulate them to show whatever they want them to show. We've seen plenty of this type of "proof" at work with the forces behind IMBRA. Here at RWD we show a different version of how successful an international relationship can be. Statistically our numbers are just as valid as those produced by the other side of the argument.

In the end the numbers are meaningless as it is the individuals involved in each specific relationship that really count.

Ken

[Gator]

Jen asked,

Gator,
Which study was this? Do you have info you could point me to -- the discussion thread you mentioned or any data about how to find the study (which must be hard given that it was never published, but maybe it is online somewhere)?

The study has been discussed twice at RWD.  The most significant discussion came in this thread with commentary from one RWD member who communicated with the principal investigator.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3165.0

It was discussed earlier, but not in as much detail, in this thread starting on p. 3.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2829.30

If you find any clues to the validity of this study, please let us know.

[Gator]

AnastasiaAsh,

I am not trying to bust your chops as my post late last night may have suggested.  The late hours do not always find me in the best moods.

You said you would never marry an older man, and I accept that as your personal decision.  I believe that your decision is based on more than the issue of physical attraction, and possibly could be influenced by needing to impede any thought of having to face the death of another husband.  Men and women who have lost loving spouses carry something inside that the rest of us can not fathom.

All I ask is for you to accept that a man may have met someone he wishes to marry and she happens to be much younger.  It is the personal decision of that particular couple.  Besides, they may very well enjoy many wonderful years together. 

A large age disparity does not make happiness impossible.  It does, however, raise some huge issues which must be addressed, not just in developing a relationship but periodically if not continuously while living the relationship.  And, of course, the man must provide for the security of his family not just for the present but for the future and the inevitable.

Yes, there are increased risks of divorce with an age gap.  You must recognize that some men are not risk averse.  When starting our business, my partners and I borrowed money using our homes as collateral.  It was a dream, and we followed our dream.  If I had failed, I would have recovered.   My wife knew that and trusted me with the house.  We succeeded (enabling her to become independently wealthy and divorce me  ).

I imagine many of the men at RWD are not risk averse.  Anyone who would fly 8,000 miles for a blind date is a risk taker.  Something such as an age gap does not frighten them – it does concern them and they know to keep their eyes open and to proceed in an intelligent manner.   

[WHHatton]

Gator,

Well thought out and well written.

 

[Maple Leaf]

As a new member of RWD, I find it very confusing on the different discussions going on this thread.  The topic of understanding the RW mentality for searching a man abroad was very intriguing to someone who has never pursued this endeavor before.  However, I am not impressed with the level of attacks by some members towards each other, and the fact this whole topic was hijacked because differences on opinion regarding age between couples. 

This is not the only thread where I keep reading about age differences that have totally nothing to do with the topic at hand.  As someone who is trying to understand this whole process, it does not help when other members push their own views on something not related to the topic at hand.  So I ask all members from now on to not discuss anything about age differences in this thread.  If any of us want to read about age differences, then we will click on this topic to read. 

I understand everyone has something to offer in these threads with ideas and opinions.  This is fine with me.  However, when the opinion and ideas have nothing to do with the topic at hand, this is where people will get agitated with members who post off topic.  All I ask is for members to post relevant ideas and opinions based on the topic at hand.  Some of us do not need to read 16 pages of blabber on age difference! Please take these discussions to PM’s if you must.  Can we have some RW actually talk about the topic at hand, so Jen and others can learn what these women have to say?

Thank you.
Eric   

[Admin]

As a new member of RWD, I find it very confusing on the different discussions going on this thread.  The topic of understanding the RW mentality for searching a man abroad was very intriguing to someone who has never pursued this endeavor before.  However, I am not impressed with the level of attacks by some members towards each other, and the fact this whole topic was hijacked because differences on opinion regarding age between couples. 

This is not the only thread where I keep reading about age differences that have totally nothing to do with the topic at hand.  As someone who is trying to understand this whole process, it does not help when other members push their own views on something not related to the topic at hand.  So I ask all members from now on to not discuss anything about age differences in this thread.  If any of us want to read about age differences, then we will click on this topic to read. 

I understand everyone has something to offer in these threads with ideas and opinions.  This is fine with me.  However, when the opinion and ideas have nothing to do with the topic at hand, this is where people will get agitated with members who post off topic.  All I ask is for members to post relevant ideas and opinions based on the topic at hand.  Some of us do not need to read 16 pages of blabber on age difference! Please take these discussions to PM’s if you must.  Can we have some RW actually talk about the topic at hand, so Jen and others can learn what these women have to say?

Thank you.
Eric   

Yeah, the oft-present thread-drift problem. Normally, a gentle reminder (just like yours) is enough to nudge people back on-topic. Nicely done - and welcome to RWD (if I didn't say it earlier).

- Dan

[KenC]

Hi everyone,

Wow, this thread did liven up. OK, I have a follow-up question for Lily, Anastassia, JC, Blues F, and any other women who are still following the thread...

There has been a lot of discussion here about age differences, mostly concerning what age woman AM are looking for. Less direct discussion about what RW are looking for. One thing you can read on the agency websites and that I sometimes hear from RW with whom I've talked is that RW are open to and perhaps even looking for men who are older than them, with the understanding that these men will be more mature, stable, experienced, etc.

Do the ladies on this thread feel that way? Understanding that what you are really looking for is an *individual* person with the qualities you need, what were your ideas about age when you started this process? And did they change? Were you looking for someone older, younger, roughly the same age, or not important? And why?

thanks for your thoughts,
jen

Sorry Dan & Eric,
But as you can see, age difference is ON TOPIC and the direction jen wanted to go.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

Sorry Dan & Eric,
But as you can see, age difference is ON TOPIC and the direction jen wanted to go.
KenC

Good point KenC, I had some misgivings too, i very rarely start talking about something else...

[catzenmouse]

I really can't think of a thread that is more than a page or two that does not drift, twist, and romp off topic in some degree. It is one of the things that I find interesting and can also provide a lot of information that may not have normally come up. Just the nature of conversation to flow in different directions.

FWIW,
 Ken

[jb]

Eric,

Just a thought, mostly the OMBs here will try to maintain a topic with the base idea in mind of sharing with the newbie what works and what doesn't.  All it takes is a one liner from someone to set the thread adrift sometimes.  Abnormally large age gaps are so contentious that you will always have a spirited debate whenever that topic raises it's ugly head.

It is true that we have a few successful couples who have navigated the rocks and shoals of large age gaps.  By the same token, we have seen over time a ton of relationships which have run amok for the same reason.  Age gaps rank right up there with language barrier as the numbers 1 and 2 reason couples fail within a short period of time.   None of us can dictate terms to the love sick puppies who frequent our board, we can only advise and suggest, sometimes the best way to advise is anecdotally.  I hope you can see the value in that.

[AnastassiaAsh]

It is true that we have a few successful couples who have navigated the rocks and shoals of large age gaps.  By the same token, we have seen over time a ton of relationships which have run amok for the same reason.  Age gaps rank right up there with language barrier as the numbers 1 and 2 reason couples fail within a short period of time.   None of us can dictate terms to the love sick puppies who frequent our board, we can only advise and suggest, sometimes the best way to advise is anecdotally.  I hope you can see the value in that.

 

But, JB, be ready, I/O will ask you for the proof of that! If there is no proof it is all nonsense...Or maybe he won't ask you for that, because you are an American man, respected member and have lots of years of wisdom, as well as KenC and others here.........but I, well, I don't have any grounds even voicing this opinion, how can I dare!!!, know-it-all and impudent......

[Turboguy]

But, JB, be ready, I/O will ask you for the proof of that! If there is no proof it is all nonsense...Or maybe he won't ask you for that, because you are an American man, respected member and have lots of years of wisdom, as well as KenC and others here.........but I, well, I don't have any grounds even voicing this opinion, how can I dare!!!, know-it-all and impudent......

Well, the bad part is that there is no proof one way or the other Anastassia.  Yes we all respect jb's logic and wisdom.   The cold hard reality is that to the best of my knowledge neither of you has a lick of experience with an age gap relationship or an age gap marriage.   There are subjects such as living with a Russian wife or many things about Russia or the oil industry where I consider him a real expert.   There are other topics such as WOVO vs WMVM, picking a good agency or the difficulties and challenges of an age gap relationship where I think his opinion is not as experienced but of course I am glad to hear his ideas always. 

[WHHatton]

I would like to know who set the limits for an age difference between a man from any country and a woman from the FSU?

What is right age gap and what is wrong age gap?

Who decides what is right for one couple and wrong for another?

This is all a very personal decision and while people can and do talk in very broad generalities there is no right or wrong, only what works for each couple.

[Turboguy]

I agree with you totally but there are some do-gooders that want to try to make rules for everyone else. 

I would never minimize anything that can add to the risk of a relationship but still there are a lot of differences in people and it is the decision of each person what is right for them just as you said.

[Lit_1nce]

I haven't contributed to this thread, but I think that's a good idea.

I'll wait for that to give my thoughts on the "age difference" thing... also maybe a poll on what people "personally" consider an acceptable difference for "them".. 5 years, 10 years, etc.. (not a judgement of others, just what "they" would reasonably look for)

Dennis

[Turboguy]

Good thought Dennis.   I wonder however if what people feel is ok for them might be different than what they would recommend for others.    I know in my case and in the case of some others whose stories I have read, (DonAz comes to my mind) the guy has often been in relationships with an age difference.    I have only dated a few women since my divorce where I did not have a 20 year or more age difference.   I guess what I am trying to say is that although I would look at a younger woman as something that would not concern me in a relationship I would not want that to be a benchmark for someone else or a recommendation for someone else.