Seeking a bit of an advice

[jb]

Thank you, BC,,,

Each of the 5 points listed above were endlessly and laborously made over and over by me until I simply threw up my hands in disgust and frustration.

You are indeed a wordsmith without peer.

[Timmy K.]

GOOD MORNING TO EVERYONE.

  Turbo I agree with you, it's all in the heart for starters, and also I am like you with your comment on respect. Any man searching a R/W should remember this from the very start. For anyone starting out you should read every thing you can about dating a russian woman for starters, then some things about russian culture and how they grow up, {women},  I purchased 4 e- books from elenasmodels and I am glad I did. You have to treat a R/W like you were taking out Michelle Phifer or someone like that. Show some genuine class. I was just being myself while doing this also, she wanted to see my true nature not some impression. This is how I knew I was doing it right.After the initial {getting used to each other] about 4 or 5 days for us. and this was before we even slept together, she suddenly would put her arm through the inside of my elbow like I was her escort when we went out in public. This was her sign to me that I was her man and she was proud to be with me and this also let other women know we were a couple. No words just this, I was surprised and very happy about this of course but I did not make a big fuss over it. I did not know about the arm through the inside of the elbow thing but I did read about some R/W's do not and will not show alot of affection in public. No kisses or hugs in public. Victoria is one of these type of R/W's {old school upbringing} .

Any one who wants them just e mail me and I think I can forward them to you. Bruno also knows a site that has some of the same information for free.  My books are free to anyone who wants them also. I still have them on file and I still read them from time to time to remind me of the respect you must have for a R/W. Here are a couple of little things that made a big impression on Victoria, hold the door open for her every where, get her a rose every day or flowers period. When we were in Kiev at our apartment Victoria was content sometimes just to stay at home and knit, {by the way she is a professional at this you should see some of the things she has knitted} taught by her mother. Any way I would cook and I would clean, I would go to the little market across the street from where we stayed in Kiev. She loves snickers candy bars. I would put them in the freezer like an ice cream bar and she loved this.While she was watching TV and knittiting I would cut these snickers bars in little pieces and serve them to her on a little saucer. I think I won her heart with the little things more than anything. About 85% of our awake time we used the three dictionaries I brought with me, making sentences to each other 3 or 4 words at a time. Sometimes it would take 15 minutes to get one thing under stood no matter how simple it was. While doing this I asked her questions also it was not all me but both of us on a regular basis. Show her you really care about what she thinks. They expect to be treated as equals. Mutual understanding is what they call it and this means in all affairs.

   OK Answer to Joe  It was about a year ago when I looked into this R/W thing. It was kind of by accident by telling you guys this you will know a little bit more about me but this is OK.  I am an ex heavy drinker, 8 years no alcohol in September. So I socialize with other ex drinkers mostly. In this life style we develop very good friends real friends for life.  So since I have a house I will rent a room or two to people who are trying to get their life back on track. Very cheap too. Any way there is this good female friend of mine {just a friend} who wanted to go back to school to get a degree to have a real carreer and make something good out of her life. She took on a full school schedule and more doing all of this on a fast track. She simply could not afford an apartment on the school grants and such. She is an ex paralegal and knows computers very well, I never knew how to even turn one on a year ago last March. So she taught me evry thing she knows, Well being single and not hitting the bar scene and clubs any more it was difficult to find a date let alone meet another female period. So I hit the personals and communicated with a few women all over the US and Canada. No real luck. Then one day this lady from Russia wrote to me from American Singles.  WOW WHAT A KNOCK OUT SHE WAS. So needless to say I hit Russian Women on the search and was I amazed, look at all the good looking women looking for men in the west. It was elenasmodels and ofcourse she has a few thousand on her site. She also got about $700 out of me too. The persoonal listing, 100 e- mail addresses, the e- books and a few very expensive translations. I learned alot though, especially on the personal listing/ on line catalogue she has. I was on the internet and evry scammer in Russia knows this. But I was overwhelmed to say the least, every agency you could think of was sending me advertisements and hundreds of women were writing me. The first 2 weeks on the personal listing I got over 150 letters from women alone. Then I thought I found miss right actually 4 times I thought I found miss right but the last one was right before Christmas and I sent her $50 and then $100 for Christmas. Never heard from her again, bummer my heart was broke and my ego was punctured pretty good. So along come Bruno to my rescue  ha ha ha and through him I met some more women through another site but as Bruno will tell you I am a liitle bit demanding on services and I made the lady mad at me on this site she said I was to hard to deal with. So along came this last agency where I met Victoria and the rest is history.

[BC]

awww.. jb, you're just trying to make me blush.. :D

I had excellent materials to work with.. the rest was simple nuts n bolts.

[Timmy K.]

 Timmy K again, Well you got me going and I am having some fun. BC you are right and I know this too. Will she stay with me?  Big risk and I know it. But like I said alot is in the heart and Victoria and I have alot of heart for each other. Real genuine basic Love. She is very aware there are more wealthy men here for her, and I am not going to let her sit on the couch either, I am going to do my best to enhance her common goals and interests. Ours are the same basically. She wants to start a business of our own in the remodel, redecorating and landscaping business. We both have the talent and skills. Like Greg from Atlanta told me and I have paid alot of attention to him also. He said Timmy you never know what will happen with this R/W-Western man relationship.Victoria knows every thing about me that can possibly be known so far.So all I can do is do the next right thing and I hope I do it right.

[andrewfi]

Sorry, been away again.

Turboguy. What you write in your first letter does not matter. (Well it does, but in this context, it does not!) See, your bride to be has already made her choice as to her future and the rest is just how well the balance of the package works out.  I have little doubt that women want to find a man that they at least like. I have seen enough women return from attempted relationships across Europe to know this to be true; but the women were still looking for the best package and still proceeded from the viewpoint that they were seeking a better, richer, easier life in another country.

No, you are not dim, but it is very hard for people to see the realities that surround them when they have a vested interest in believing otherwise. Most of the holocaust came about becasue of that simple insight, played upon by the Nazis time and time again.

So, this means that the 'average' man will be challenged by much greater than average challenges. I guess this means that the man and woman who manage to make a lifetime relationship were not average.

It may well be true that women, everywhere, seek a man who can be a good provider and support for her kids, this meaning that most times women tend to marry men who have better social or economic status than themselves. I certainly think this is true, for most, after university education is finished. But the point is that the reality of the situation is different between men in the US, or Europe and the women they think they seek in the FSU. The differential is huge, it clouds the whole relationship and particularly in its inception. Example: I would be unlikley to be dating, in the UK a woman of 'appropriate age difference' who was earning double what I was earning, or half or less what I was earning. It is very rare for all sorts of reasons. In the FSU, even on my reduced income, I currently pull down in excess of four times the average income. This makes me, in local terms, pretty well-off, it does affect relationships, it means that I have yet to date a woman who earns as much as, or more than I. I know a couple, and they are friends, we are peers. Most of the time I go out with 'average' women who see me as a wealthy man, on the basis of lifestyle, home and pastimes. Of course it affects how things go. Often, in my favour, although I am uncomfortable with that situation. SO, imagine how it goes for a woman who meets a man who claims an 'average' lifestyle in the US. He is very wealthy by her relative standards. Her head will be easily turned and it will stay so until she has re-educated herself in her destination country.

Of course, we shuld not forget that most women have no desire to leave their home country, they are happy where they are and see improvements in the future. The women in agencies are, almost by definition, more acquisitive, more mercenary than their sisters. They are self-selected in that way.

So. let us take a random example, a bus driver, perhaps. He can visit his target just once and after deciding that they are a match, he must wait half a year, or more, before following up. What message does that send to his inamorata? Yup, you were right, it is not positive thing. So, I guess, Mr Average, should at least have saved enough money to get the thing done. That Mr Average has not, tends to indicate a certain 'averageness' in his planning and resource allocation abilities. His averageness wil come and bite him in the bum, either costing him the love of his life, or more likley, forcing him into sub-optimal choices which will cost him dear in the future; because he can not afford to do things right.

Turboguy, assuming that Mr Average lives in the cheapest part of the US, and is paying the average for a family size home a car and enough left over to finance another car, how much disposable income might such a one have? How much would it cost to fly to meet one's inamorata every three months, assuming that such a one could manage to maintain his income even while having to take unpaid leave to make his trips. In that circumstance, the $65k would be less as  this is considerably in excess of the national average for the US and he would be losing perhaps a month of salary as unpaid leave to finance his trip. Even assuming the $65k (less the month unpaid leave), per annum), how would things stack up?

Yup, it does not. Forcing the bad choices and cut corners. But  as we all (should) know the 6 'P's Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance!

But everyoe wants ot be positive, it makes us feel better about our own position... We can say to ourselves 'If Mr Average can do it then, I as, better than average, most certainly can!'

T'aint so! But it is a nice dream. Of course the only way anyone finds out they can, or can not, do something successfully to try. But I reckon, that if I bet against the 'average' man's success and on the success of the relatively well off, or socially well set guy, then I would be a rich man.

[jb]

Andrew is again giving a good example of what it takes to not run out of gas mid-stream if you want to bring a woman over from the FSU.  

I know from personal experience that even a 6 figure salary gets eaten up badly before you get to the "disposable" portion of your money.  After the 15% pre-tax set aside for 401K's, funding your IRA, usually another 7.5-10% for ESP options, SS and Fed Income Tax, and you are now down to about 50% or less, of that 6 figure income.  You figure in your home mortage, the odd home improvement, insurance, cars; (again insurance, gas, oil, licensing, maintenance etc.,) a bit to eat, some entertainment, replacing worn out clothing, and such.  Now you are down to the budget crunch of calculating how many trans-atlantic plane rides you can afford.  If you figure a minimum of 3 trips, plus expenses while in country, your going to be hard pressed to put any money into your personal savings account.  

And God help you if you have children from a previous marriage you have to support, let alone an alimony payment to an ex-wife.

I figure you can do it on $65K, but you are going to live like a monk during the process.

[Ste]

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with Andrew and jb, there is another option - If it's real love....

Sell up and go there.

If I had no other option, I know I'd be out now in Chelyabinsk with the babushkas collecting beer bottles for the deposits.

It's cheap!

Ste

[Turboguy]

Here we go again.  We are discussing something that is not going anywhere but why not.

First off, I think a few people got confused when I was talking about this.   We are talking hypothetical situations.   I am not arguing that I can chase and FSU woman undercapatalized.   We may be talking about a bus drivers somewhere or a carpenter somewhere else, a gardner from Belgium or my early retired friend from Michigan.   Personally I can afford to do what ever I want.

We have a different perspective on things jb and Andrewfin.  jb you had a nice job for most of your working life and that is good.  For me I have always been a bit of an entreprenour or business owner whichever word you prefer.  When you live that kind of life you sort of survive on your own wit and abilites and taking risks are an every day thing. 

Yes, you have a pretax income of x and take out taxes and 401K and mortgage and car payment and this and that and it does take a bite out of things, I guess.   Being more of an entrapraneur I don't have much hesitation going after things I want.   I think if you want something bad enough you do what you want to to achieve it.   If you can't afford to make the trips you want,  you can always get a second mortgage, borrow against your 401 k or whatever.   Again this is hypothecial.   I don't have a first mortgage or a second myself or a car payment or for that matter a 401 k.   People borrow for a car, they borrow for a new kitchen,  why not for a wife if that is what they want bad enough.  I am not saying that is good.  I am saying if someone wants something bad enough there are ways to do it.

So then you get to the other part of is an FSU woman going to be happy with an AM who makes only 30,000 -40,000 - 50,000 or whatever.   Hey, if you are honest with them and they know it going in and get over here and meet other Russian gals who have rich husbands that is thier problem.   There were no blinders on their head and they probably had 90 days to see your lifestyle.   Frankly i doubt very much if the hypothetical guys I mentioned at the start will have a bit of complaint about their guys financial condition from their FSU women. 

[Turboguy]

Way to go Ste.   I agree wholeheartedly.   I always thought romance and marriage were about love  -  not money.    I guess I lead a more sheltered life than jb and Andrewfin.

[Ste]

No Turbo, I've had a very unsheltered life.

I've had money, enjoyed it, bought stuff I don't need, spent it, gave it away. Now I've got nothing, No assets, no pension, but also absolutely zero debt. Actually by jb's criteria I shouldn't be in this game....but I couldn't be happier.

But I'm resourceful, clever, and if I need money I can earn it but I no longer live by money alone. My income is generated by multiple sources, so if i lose one - I'm not stranded. I write, I am a Solaris guru, I fix PC's, I do lots of small things...

I also have a proper job!

I suppose also living in UK, costs of dating in the FSU are less....

I realise I've probably totally messed my life up for good, but I have Nadia, I have good health, I have great kids, for me for some strange reason life is better when I have nothing material....I should be French.....

And...I just know there will a gravestone is Russia with my name on it....

Ste

[Photo Guy]

Turbo,

I believe what is being said is:

1. It takes a lot of disposable income (whatever the gross is)

2. The risks increase proportionally with less time spent together beforehand.

3. What's the motivating 'dream' a RW is seeking when signing up with an international marriage agency? Of course a better and secure life is at the top of the list. Not uncommon among any women.. Everyone looks for a step up.

4. Her point of view will change after she arrives and adjusts. The thrifty minimalist you met will very very likely not remain so and will re-evaluate her 'position' among her new peers.

5. Don't put her in the position where her overall 'quality of life' is less than it was back 'home'.  Many aspects such as loss of friends and family, language probs and limited trips home etc. weigh into the quality of life equation and have to be made up for elsewhere. Endless hours alone on a comfortable couch and TV won't hack it.

All not unreasonable imho.  Remember 2, 3, 4, and 5 usually require increased #1.

Excellent post, BC!   I wish jb would learn from you. You made your points in a mature concise way, and without being insulting.

[Jet]

There were no blinders on their head and they probably had 90 days to see your lifestyle.   Frankly i doubt very much if the hypothetical guys I mentioned at the start will have a bit of complaint about their guys financial condition from their FSU women. 

 

Don't you believe it for a second!!!

It took my wife all of about 30 days to figure out exactly where we fell on the socio-economic food chain. She had pointed out at one time, "Our life in the US is NOT better than my life was in Russia, it's not worse, but it's not better". I was a very lucky man, she didn't give up and our finacial situation quickly rebounded, but don't fool yourselves, just because a woman isn't nagging you, or threatening to leave, does not mean she is not seeing it, or thinking about it.

[Turboguy]

That was a funny post Jet,   I don't doubt it a bit.   Actually I have Luda all confused about houses anyway but I am sure if she is not happy she will let me know in short order. 

If I have had anything in mind when I have been talking about accepting things and housing it is a friend from Michigan who I met on an EC tour to Moscow and St Petersburgh about Last spring.   Mike is leaving on the 7th k-1 paperwork in had and his gal is someone I fixed him up with.   Mike is about oh, 56,  a little on the balding side, short, ok looking, nice guy, he took an early retirement and lives in a the old family farm in the middle of nowhere in Michigan.   He is not going to move.   His gall Inna is oh 44 or 5, not a beauty queen but probably a little better looking than what he would find in the usa.   She is a nice girl and thinks he is wonderful.  He has been real honest with her and has told her in detail about where he lives, sent photos of the house and when I was talking about going into a relationship fully aware and with no blinders.   For Mike, Inna is a catch.   Anono or TigerPaws would not give her the time of day but Mike is thrilled, Inna is thrilled and I don't really think in their case the house is going to matter.  

I do agree for most of the gals keeping up with the Jones is a must.    It is probably more the case for the young pretty ones, like misses Jet and a lot of the other wives here.   I do think there are cases where it is less of a priority.

[Maxx]

"We live like bums!"

 

These were the words from my ex-Russian wife 3 months after she got here on a spousal visa. You see I rented an $1014 a month apartment in the Suburbs with an indoor/outdoor pool, sauna, whirlpool and shopping (Wal-Mart!) just a 5 minute walk away. The idea was we were going to shop for houses together.

I thought she would be thrilled with the vast increase in her living standards even with the Suburban apartment. Her previous place had two rooms, no running hot water and bars on the windows. It was a small duplex with a tin roof. The yard had a junk tree and the rest was mud. It seemed that even the weeds had a tough go of it.



Just outside her house 

Anyway she quickly learned what a good standard of living is in Minnesota. I found out as we "shopped" for homes (It was a distraction while my divorce lawyers drafted the papers) that homes that satisfied her were in the $350,000 (double that for certain other parts of the country) and above range. The others were quickly walked through. 

My take on all this is that RW want to have at least the average standard of living and preferable better than most. They are after all known for their pride. 

I make about 120 K a year. I know that all of this would be used to support a RWife. But before I take the plunge I will have that beautiful luxurious home with my debts payed off (these things are just around the corner) and some healthy cash reserves in the bank. I shudder to think if I didn't.

jb, KenC and Jet I have talked to on the phone several times each. They are like on the phone like they are on the board but without the insults. But what was important was the straight talk I recieved from them. People who care about you do that. Heck everyone of these guys have called me during my darkest hours not to needle me but give me support and encouragement and I have slammed everyone of them (I wanted to beat up KenC). You guys, Turbo and Photoguy, should give one or all of these guys a call.  

Maxx       

[Photo Guy]

Maxx,
That is quite scary!  I have told L on numerous occasions that I am NOT RICH, although I am certainly NOT poor. She responds by saying that it is not important to her. After your post, I will now be sending her dozens of photos of my condo and tell her if it's not good enough, then bye-bye.  

Phone THOSE guys?  Uh...maybe Jet. Okay, I'll phone Jet in the future, if things progress.   Doug

[John C]

Hey Donna,
Whats up with the red circle thru the american flag?

[Maxx]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Maxx,
That is quite scary! I have told L on numerous occasions that I am NOT RICH, although I am certainly NOT poor. She responds by saying that it is not important to her. After your post, I will now be sending her dozens of photos of my condo and tell her if it's not good enough, then bye-bye.

Phone THOSE guys? Uh...maybe Jet. Okay, I'll phone Jet in the future, if things progress. Doug

Well would say nothing about this and just watch her over the 90 days. You might want to educate her on the value (perhaps once she gets here?) on two incomes and the use of low interest loans for a purchase of a home. My Crash-n-Burn experience tells me that a joint mortgage should come after the 2 years and the greencard and everything looks stable for the marriage for years to come. Before then keep things liquid. Just play it safe by keeping her goal oriented (such as saving for a downpayment). Of course none of this should be spoken of. Shhhhhhhh!

Maxx 

[Bruno]

People borrow for a car, they borrow for a new kitchen,  why not for a wife if that is what they want bad enough.  I am not saying that is good.  I am saying if someone wants something bad enough there are ways to do it.

Borrow for a wife !!! It is the badly that you can make... when you borrow for a kitchen, you pay one time for it and keep it a long time...

For a wife, it is different... you begin borrow for the trip... borrow more for the marriage... and more for school first year... and more for the first child... and come a time where you are not able to pay back...

Russian people are people of cash... you have the money, you use it... you have not, you wait until you have it... before my first russian wife, i was borrowing for all... TV, Auto, Computer, new furniture... she have learn me to life with what i have... if we wish a new TV, we spare a little and wait until we have the cash...

Now, i pay monthly only the hiring of house... a little 250 euro month all in... i have nothing to pay back... and this allow me to have enough cash flow for my dating experience...

This may be the widest culture gap between western men and their Russian ladies. I can almost guarantee that your lady will not understand western finance. It would be in your best interest to enlighten her in this area. She may not realize that credit card purchases must be paid back. She simply will not understand the tax benefits to having a mortgage, and she will probably think you are a liar if you tell her you own a home, when you are really renting it from the bank. Develop trust, keep the explanations simple, and good luck!... My finance are like these of Russian, so i have no problem on this side...

And i have a pension plan, a hospital plan, food check, pay holliday, 13 month, ... all this pay by my boss, the state... here in Belgium, when we speak about income, we speak about what we have really in hand... big tax are removed directly via the boss... this pay all social expense and pension... when you are without job, these tax allow to pay you a monthly replacement income... 80% first year, 60% second year... and a forfait after... for these who have never work ( young ) or these who have loose job by own fault, they receive a minimum income up the level of povrety... and more...

When i speak about my income, it is netto... this netto grow if i am married and the wife don't work, if i have children... the brutto don't change... he only rise with time... some % for follow the inflation and some % each two year i work in the same section since my value on work grow...

Of course, this is only for European people... in Europe, the difference between high, medium, and low class are more little that in America... maybe because our tax system level it... when i was earning 5000 euro month, i have pay a direct tax around 52%... now that i have more low income, the direct tax is only 16.5% ... with the first 7500 euro earn in the year without tax...

So, i correct my previous post... For a European, middle class, it is not a problem for date, marry a RW... for a American middle class, it can be more difficult but some example show that it is possible...

[BC]

People borrow for a car, they borrow for a new kitchen,  why not for a wife if that is what they want bad enough.  I am not saying that is good.  I am saying if someone wants something bad enough there are ways to do it.

Borrow for a wife !!! It is the badly that you can make... when you borrow for a kitchen, you pay one time for it and keep it a long time...

For a wife, it is different... you begin borrow for the trip... borrow more for the marriage... and more for school first year... and more for the first child... and come a time where you are not able to pay back...[/quote]

You're right Bruno.

Instant recepie for disaster. I think anyone even coming close to considering debt as an option should be shot on the spot.  Putting any woman in the position of being 'at fault' for economic problems (believe me she will feel this way every payment you make) is total and complete insanity.

In the end you will loose and feel like a problem gambler that hocked his last pair of pants for that big 'win'.

[Turboguy]

Personally I would not do it, and would not counsel anyone to borrow money to chase women in the FSU.   My whole point was that it is not THAT expensive to make a trip to the FSU   Lets say 2,000-3,000   A car is $ 25,000-$50,000   If someone wants to go they will find a way to pay for it.

I am glad to hear the Russian gals are people who are used to cash because that is the way I like to do things.   If I can't afford it I wait till I can.  It is nice to not have payments and when you don't have payments it is not hard to come up with the cash to be able to afford what ever it is you want.

[corncrowe]

No Turbo, I've had a very unsheltered life.

I've had money, enjoyed it, bought stuff I don't need, spent it, gave it away. Now I've got nothing, No assets, no pension, but also absolutely zero debt. Actually by jb's criteria I shouldn't be in this game....but I couldn't be happier.

But I'm resourceful, clever, and if I need money I can earn it but I no longer live by money alone. My income is generated by multiple sources, so if i lose one - I'm not stranded. I write, I am a Solaris guru, I fix PC's, I do lots of small things...

I also have a proper job!

I suppose also living in UK, costs of dating in the FSU are less....

I realise I've probably totally messed my life up for good, but I have Nadia, I have good health, I have great kids, for me for some strange reason life is better when I have nothing material....I should be French.....

And...I just know there will a gravestone is Russia with my name on it....

Ste

Ste,

Good for you!!!  I love a positive message.  I lived in the UK and know it's much easier to travel Europe than from the states.  It also takes less money to visit someone in the FSU, so you don't need 70k (quid) to live and find a woman in the FSU.  Money doesn't buy love or happiness.  I have a good friend in Kettering who makes do on about 11k and is quite content with his Russian bride and child.

Cheers,

Jon

[ukguy]

Photo guy,

I haven't posted here for sometime now, but i have been reading all posts while taking a seat back to reasess my situation. In my humble opinion i think you should do the same. All your posts now seem to be spoiling for a fight with jb or kenC it is getting annoying to say the least. I would reccommend you go back write to the start and read all your posts and all the replys that were given, then you will see why people have given up on giving good advise to you. In my opinion people like jb and kenC have in the past given you some very valuable advise and you have chosen to ignore it. These guys are the reason why us newbies are here, if you don't listen or like the comments made then you shouldn't be here.

Rich

[Turboguy]

Rich, I can easily understand how you feel the way you do but you can't go back and read all the posts, they have been removed.   If you could you might understand more of why he was upset. 

I too think that there is nothing he can gain by contiunuing the fight and hope the whole situation passes into the neverland of forgotten memories and we can move forward and try to help each other in a postive fashion. 

[KenC]

Ken,

This is what you said that you now say you didn't say.

Money and better lifestyle are the deciding factor to even consider a marriage to an American.

That was in the same post with the stick my head someplace and see how well my rose colored glasses work looking out my arse or whatever it was.

Turbo,

When you quote someone you should try to quote it in context.. why did you decide not to include the sentences that followed in Ken's post?

[/quote]
Money and better lifestyle are the deciding factor to even consider a marriage to an American. And I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing either. It is human nature. Men are attracted to good looking women and women are attracted to good providers. Hopefully there are other criteria involved in the selection process, but they all come second after the initial needs are met.

Thanks BC maybe you can teach Turbo & Photo reading comprehension 101.

KenC

(Malibu was great!)[/quote]

[Turboguy]

Ha,  I comprehended that he said what he said he didn't say.    I can see you guys have completed talking out of both sides of your mouth 101