Future of Russian Government

[Gator]

Phil wrote,

I never thought I'd hear myself say this but maybe we should consider bringing back Bill...

It is too late to bring back JFK or Ronnie.  Having memories of those two as our President is a permanent reminder that the BEST, other than those two, do not want the job.  For sure people with Presidential stuff can make more money in private business and serve many noble causes with far less stress and without the constant scrutiny of the press.

Your man Bill... well he is an absolutely brilliant politician, and many Hillary supporters believe they are getting Bill too with a vote for her.  I still would have trouble voting for him, not because he cheats at golf, a game of integrity.  But because he did not kill Osama when we had him in our gunsights.  And in a future confrontation I believe he would cave under pressure. 

[wxman]

The problem with American elections is that the candidates do not campaign to get the votes of the informed voters. Instead their campaigns are designed to get the votes from those who have no clue about the issues and then tell them what they want to hear, instead of what they need to hear.  Thus the reason for all the ads that say nothing and smear dirt on everyone else.

[BC]

About Kasparov most Russians could not care less. He went to the USA to get a passport and money, and now he returns to tell how Russians should lead their lives... I do not think he can hand out enough money to win any election. 

I'm sure a few thousand protesters in front of the White House without a permit would also result in some arrests..

I spent some time back home in the US a few years ago during election season.  Marketing marketing marketing... besides polls, it is interesting that the most mentioned indicator is how many millions the campaigns are able to raise and who bashes who best.  What ever happened to that good old soapbox that represented real democracy?

I'll vote for whoever is really interested in earning the paltry salary offered..

It really is no wonder why the leashes on foreign NGO's in RU were reeled in.

Politics is dirty business in every sense, everywhere so I will refrain from throwing stones east.

[timothe]

The problem with American elections is that the candidates do not campaign to get the votes of the informed voters. Instead their campaigns are designed to get the votes from those who have no clue about the issues and then tell them what they want to hear, instead of what they need to hear.  Thus the reason for all the ads that say nothing and smear dirt on everyone else.

I agree and I'm as heavily invested in the political landscape as anyone I know.  

As a conservative, I think we are getting sold down the river with Huckabee, McCain, Romney, and to some extent, Guilani.  The only real conservative on the GOP ticket is Duncan Hunter and he just can't get any traction.  (Fred might be conservative, too, but I'm not yet convinced he's real.)  My party thinks they have to find middle ground on some issues when in fact, our best leaders in history have not allowed themselves to be influenced by popular opinion.  

That is also why I could never vote for Hillary.  She will govern like her husband and follow the polls rather than act on conviction.  Sometimes, especially when it comes to our national interests, you have to make unpopular decisions.  

[Bruce]

All I know is that Rudy is a tough SOB who will get things done.  I saw him do it in NYC.  He is not the kind of guy most us would want for a friend, but he is a very competent manager who puts competent people into power positions.   He is a guy who decides what is right and makes things happen to get there.  He is definitely a guy the terrorists should be afraid of. 

[WmGO]

It has become rare that the Presidential election is not anything other than
the lesser of two evils.............look at the last two elections: incompetent
and unqualified vs. socialist blow hards.........doesn't appear to be a dime's worth of difference in terms of screwing things up royally.........nothing like a 9 Trillion dollar debt with the interest payment on that debt about to be the second largest item on the budget and a military adventure in Babylon to recreate it into the image of a Western "Democracy"...............
........note that I didn't say anything about rank refusal to protect the southern border or the selling out of our national sovereignty via various abuses of the treaty making power and "executive agreements"............

[Mir]

Sometimes, especially when it comes to our national interests, you have to make unpopular decisions. 

Like going into Iraq and achieving......what? I can't think of any benefit to US interest from the war that is costing billions(of your money) and loss of priceless young lives.

[timothe]

Like going into Iraq and achieving......what? I can't think of any benefit to US interest from the war that is costing billions(of your money) and loss of priceless young lives.

It has been said in the last couple of days that Iran stopped their nuclear weapons program in 2003.  (so did Libya)  Most pundits refuse to do the math, but perhaps Iran and Libya saw the "shock and awe" in Iraq and decided not to make big bombs anymore.  Perhaps. 

Also, the results of rebuilding a country aren't generally seen for decades.  But last I saw, our rebuilding efforts in Japan and Germany have resulted in better conditions for those who live there and a better world for the rest of us.  Time will tell if the same thing happens in Iraq...it might be a little short-sighted to say that the invasion was a complete failure.  (you can only apply that failure to the intelligence estimates prior to the invasion along with the decision to act on that intelligence)

[William3rd]

Trillions of dollars of OUR money-thousands of dollars of MY money-poured down the toilet bowl of Iraq.

My friend's son is serving there now as a marine. Interesting tales coming back- some very similar to tales from Vietnam. Will the new ARVN succeed? Probably not. . . .

Know a couple of people personally who have been there and returned.

Any of the rest of you know anybody who is serving or who has been there?

[timothe]

Trillions of dollars of OUR money-thousands of dollars of MY money-poured down the toilet bowl of Iraq.

My friend's son is serving there now as a marine. Interesting tales coming back- some very similar to tales from Vietnam. Will the new ARVN succeed? Probably not. . . .

Know a couple of people personally who have been there and returned.

Any of the rest of you know anybody who is serving or who has been there?

Not a relative, but a co-worker's son is on his 2nd tour in Northern Iraq (who was recently injured) and she has another boy who is leaving for Iraq in December. 

[William3rd]

My friend's son reports lengthy periods without water for showers-measured in weeks. But he also reports that the Iraqis dont have any water either.

Not much activity by his unit as the Iraqi army and the blackwater types are doing most of the patrolling in his area-and taking most of the casualties. His sergeant says that they have come at a good time because the political climate is to keep troop casualties at a minimum. He has 6 more months to serve.

He also feels that the Iraqis hate our collective guts- smile to "our" face but curse "us" when "we" leave.

Anyway- enough of this. It sickens me to talk about it. The Crusader fools didnt learn the last time through;they will not learn this time.

[BC]

Any of the rest of you know anybody who is serving or who has been there?

Yepper.. the best damn EOD tech I ever worked with went out with a blast by a roadside bomb he could render safe in his sleep.

Riding around was more dangerous than doing his job.

William, 30K and counting for every man, woman and child in the US (illegal or not) - now that is scary.

Iraqi officers go missing in U.S.
By Sara A. Carter

Numerous Iraqi military and law-enforcement officials brought to the U.S. as part of special intelligence and training programs have run away and are seeking asylum in this country or disappeared altogether, The Washington Times has learned.

and the senselessness goes on, and on, and on...

[Phil dAmore]

It has become rare that the Presidential election is not anything other than
the lesser of two evils

... Or is it the evil of two lessors?

Here's my take:

Each new administration spends it's first two years in office undoing whatever the previous administration enacted.  Then it's time to fire up the reelection machine and that occupies the second half of the 4 -year term.

Assuming a victory, the reelected administration then implements it's own agenda over the next four years....

... and then it's time to leave, and the process starts all over again, ensuring that nothing ever really changes except the seasons and calendar.

The best bit of graffiti I ever saw read:  If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.

People vote for the party that is going to screw them the least. 

[timothe]

For those interested in supporting the American troops:

http://www.redshirtfridays.org/

My co-worker's son is PFC Willie Bullard.  He was injured recently, but not badly enough to come home.  (Mom says he didn't want to come home.) 

Yeah I know....he's just a kid. 

[Mir]

It has been said in the last couple of days that Iran stopped their nuclear weapons program in 2003.  (so did Libya)  Most pundits refuse to do the math, but perhaps Iran and Libya saw the "shock and awe" in Iraq and decided not to make big bombs anymore.  Perhaps. 

Also, the results of rebuilding a country aren't generally seen for decades.  But last I saw, our rebuilding efforts in Japan and Germany have resulted in better conditions for those who live there and a better world for the rest of us.  Time will tell if the same thing happens in Iraq...it might be a little short-sighted to say that the invasion was a complete failure.  (you can only apply that failure to the intelligence estimates prior to the invasion along with the decision to act on that intelligence)

The nuclear huha is more of a hoax then anything else. Much like the Iraqi WMDs that never were. One of the most unstable countries in the region and which has been the training camp for most terrorists is Pakistan, and it already has nuclear bomb and technology to develop them.

There is absolutely no comparsion between Germany/Japan of 1945 and Iraq of today. Just tell me how many suicide bombs exploded in Tokyo when US troops were there? How many members of German police were kidnapped and beheaded in 1946 or 1947?
The invasion is not a failure,it is a success. Only problem is that the declared aims of the invasion were not the same as the real purpose. For those who wanted this war there must certainly be benefits. Question is are the Iraqi people, the ordinary US citizens and the world at large party to any share in the spoils? Not IMHO

[BillyB]

The nuclear huha is more of a hoax then anything else. Much like the Iraqi WMDs that never were.

Mir, If Iraq says they're going to develop WMD's that was picked up by every intelligence agency in the World, you as a World leader must treat Iraq if that is true. If you are a police and a criminal says he has a gun, although you can't see it, you must act accordingly and treat that criminal as if he does have a gun. It's dumb to ignore that kind of stuff. Saddam at his trials has admitted to giving out signals to the World intelligence community that he was pursuing WMD's to scare Iran from attacking Iraq. One thing is for certain, if he could kill you and me and destroy our nations and get away with it, he would.



Mir, halfway down this page, I put a link to show WMD's were found in Iraq announced by a couple of US Senators.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5887.msg106120;topicseen#msg106120

[Mir]

A couple of US Senators wouldn't be caught lying on something this big ....

Question: How can one tell when a politician is lying?

Answer: His lips move.

[Shadow]

If you are a police and a criminal says he has a gun, although you can't see it, you must act accordingly and treat that criminal as if he does have a gun. It's dumb to ignore that kind of stuff.

If you are a police and want to kill a criminal you can shout 'he has a gun', and act accordingly. As long as you stick to your story, nobody will be able to punish you. Well....that is not under Dutch law where violence is allowed only when under attack.

[BC]

I think it all boils down to 'crying Wolf!' too often.

After a few iterations, credibility declines dramatically.

The true problem IMHO lies much deeper..  Back in '75 or so folks suspected an Israeli nuclear program.. what was done about it?  Squat.  What is known about it today? Squat. What negotiations are taking place to get rid of them to create a nuclear free zone? Squat.

Now everyone is dealing with 'tit for tat' repercussions..

Real progress (not only demands) with N. Korea started after they blew one up to demonstrate their capability. 

To bring this back on track, I think the conservative reaction of the RU government to all this is quite good. 

[BillyB]

If you are a police and want to kill a criminal you can shout 'he has a gun', and act accordingly. As long as you stick to your story, nobody will be able to punish you.

True, but that was not the case with USA vs. Iraq. Every major intelligence agency was on the same page, even the ones from countries that didn't want us to attack Iraq. There were satellite videos showed on tv of UN inspectors knock on the gates of certain compounds and being refused in. While they argued their rights protesting, the satellite videos showed Iraqi personnel frantically packing out boxes into trucks and vehicles exiting out the back gate. After done, they let the inspectors in. It might have been all show, fun and games but that's the chance Saddam took when lying and game over for him. If you choose to wave a rubber toy gun in front of cops, don't cry when you don't get good results.

Here's interesting stories an Iraqi friend of mine told me while when he lived there.

Saddam was present for a big celebration of a grand opening of a new major highway. He measured one part of the highway and was disappointed it wasn't built to specifications since the thickness of the asphalt was too thin. He called the man in charge of the project over and told him to stand still while he ordered another man to get on a roller and run the project manager over. After he measured the thickness of the paving combined with the flat, dead man on the ground and announced to the public watching, "The paving now meets State specifications".

A high ranking official introduce Saddam to a beautiful woman that ended up becoming Saddam's mistress. One of Saddam's sons became upset about that since his mother is being disrespected and during a government function, he brutally killed that official in front of everyone as an example out of him. Saddam and State controlled media told the public his son is in prison to serve time for that murder which would imply Saddam is fair and just and will punish even his own sons for crimes. But word spread quickly from Iraqi's living in France that Saddam's son wasn't in prison but partying in Paris.

[SANDRO43]

Every major intelligence agency was on the same page, even the ones from countries that didn't want us to attack Iraq.

BillyB, I don't recall at all such unanimous views, and neither that:

There were satellite videos showed on tv of UN inspectors knock on the gates of certain compounds and being refused in. While they argued their rights protesting, the satellite videos showed Iraqi personnel frantically packing out boxes into trucks and vehicles exiting out the back gate.

And the gossip from your 'Iraqi friend' was not his private secret, but also reported in the press. I think you're grasping at straws .

[Shadow]

BillyB I agree that Saddam was a true dictator. However he was put in place by international support, and made to be a major threat to the area. Once he stopped being a threat and became a liability, he was removed.
Saddam never had widespread support among the arab nations, which is why the war against him was not met with a lot of problems.

[BillyB]

Saddam never had widespread support among the arab nations, which is why the war against him was not met with a lot of problems.

Yes, Arab nations let us park our military on their land and did not give much opposition with the war. Saddam was given a second chance after the first gulf war with conditions, He screwed up and didn't meet the conditions otherwise he'd still be in power. I also suspect the US went to war to end the unfair economic advantage our allies where having when dealing with Saddam. UN resolutions would never work unless everybody played by the rules.

Sandro, I thought I made it clear but to clarify things, the satellite videos is something I and millions of others watched on tv, not a story from my Iraqi friend.

[Mir]

Saddam was present for a big celebration of a grand opening of a new major highway. He measured one part of the highway and was disappointed it wasn't built to specifications since the thickness of the asphalt was too thin. He called the man in charge of the project over and told him to stand still while he ordered another man to get on a roller and run the project manager over. After he measured the thickness of the paving combined with the flat, dead man on the ground and announced to the public watching, "The paving now meets State specifications".

A high ranking official introduce Saddam to a beautiful woman that ended up becoming Saddam's mistress. One of Saddam's sons became upset about that since his mother is being disrespected and during a government function, he brutally killed that official in front of everyone as an example out of him. Saddam and State controlled media told the public his son is in prison to serve time for that murder which would imply Saddam is fair and just and will punish even his own sons for crimes. But word spread quickly from Iraqi's living in France that Saddam's son wasn't in prison but partying in Paris.

No one is questioning that Saddam was a brutal dictator.
But so is the regime in Saudi where a young girl was flogged just because she was gang raped and people are beheaded everyday on the whim of the rulers.And who keeps the Al-Sauds in power? Uncle Sam.
As BC has commented part of the problem is the blind eye US turns towards the atrocities committed by Israel, and BTW Israel is a Zionist state claiming to be a Jewish state.
In 1953 there was a possibility that a democratic government might be established in Iran, the CIA destroyed this opportunity bringing in the Shah who was a fascist and brutal dictator.
The last 50-60 years of history in the middle east is of oppression and brutality, what do you expect to come out of it?Sadams and Bin Ladens.

[BC]

Here's interesting stories an Iraqi friend of mine told me while when he lived there.

Saddam was present for a big celebration of a grand opening of a new major highway. He measured one part of the highway and was disappointed it wasn't built to specifications since the thickness of the asphalt was too thin. He called the man in charge of the project over and told him to stand still while he ordered another man to get on a roller and run the project manager over. After he measured the thickness of the paving combined with the flat, dead man on the ground and announced to the public watching, "The paving now meets State specifications".

A high ranking official introduce Saddam to a beautiful woman that ended up becoming Saddam's mistress. One of Saddam's sons became upset about that since his mother is being disrespected and during a government function, he brutally killed that official in front of everyone as an example out of him. Saddam and State controlled media told the public his son is in prison to serve time for that murder which would imply Saddam is fair and just and will punish even his own sons for crimes. But word spread quickly from Iraqi's living in France that Saddam's son wasn't in prison but partying in Paris.

So this is why hundreds of thousands have lost their lives?

Even here in south Italy, there are (rarely) folks found in the olive groves.. they were involved in things they should not have.  Maybe a few GBU's are in order?

Saddam and Bin Laden were both trained by the US.. is it really any wonder why the US had problems dealing with them? - I think not.

True, but that was not the case with USA vs. Iraq. Every major intelligence agency was on the same page, even the ones from countries that didn't want us to attack Iraq. There were satellite videos showed on tv of UN inspectors knock on the gates of certain compounds and being refused in. While they argued their rights protesting, the satellite videos showed Iraqi personnel frantically packing out boxes into trucks and vehicles exiting out the back gate. After done, they let the inspectors in. It might have been all show, fun and games but that's the chance Saddam took when lying and game over for him. If you choose to wave a rubber toy gun in front of cops, don't cry when you don't get good results.

A satellite (and there can only be a small handful, if even two) can only grasp a very small view of what is truly going on.  Sort of like watching a grain of sand in the desert.

Should we bomb the CIA building because they destroyed tapes of folks being waterboarded?

All is relative....