Character Problems with RM and RW

[vwrw]

From KenC: …manipulation of men through sex is very common.

vwrw: I remember the manipulation is exactly the bad thing why you complained about American women. So you forgot to add that the phenomenon is not exclusively FSU women’s phenomenon.   

[KenC]

Scott,
On the flip side" of your story I have heard about a wife in Russia that actually said "Yeah, he (husband) may be f---ing her, but he always comes home to me!"  Which is an attitude I find mind blowing.
KenC

[LiveFromUkraine]

This is certainly the opposite of the attitude of disposable marriages that we commonly see today and something to reflect on.

That is the truth all over the world.  Sveta and I would never accept cheating either.  Sveta is such a strong woman she would never take that type of behavior as well.


Thomas

[KenC]

From KenC: …manipulation of men through sex is very common.

vwrw: I remember the manipulation is exactly the bad thing why you complained about American women. So you forgot to add that the phenomenon is not exclusively FSU women’s phenomenon.   

Good point VWRW,
But it is in a different way as I see it.  When I was speaking about AW using sex to manipulate a man, it was within the marriage not outside of it.  Not that AW do not use sex to manipulate men outside of marriage too, but they seem to be less blatant than RW about it.  Some of the fsuw I have known almost flaunt their ability to manipulate men in this manner.  An AW might do so, but would never brag about it.  The difference being that FSUW show no guilt in any way whereas AW would.
KenC

[BillyB]

But I do know when I was engaged years back, I found out my girl was having an affair in the very same way FSURookie did.

Neo's ex wife said her friends joined agencies even though they had a Russian boyfriends at the time.

I have the utmost respect for people who aren't influenced by the deceiving behavior of many in their society and who refuse to walk over, use, and push others to get their way as done at the metro as Groove mentioned. I absolutely trust my finacee. Most of our talk about fidelity in a relationship was started by her. Much of her actions and the honoring of her words towards me and others have earned my trust. It does take time to understand who you're dealing with. It's no wonder that many men who marry quickly do not know who they bring into their home.

Sometimes I feel, based on some of the RW forums out there where RW are the majority, some  RW have a "It's us against them(men)" mentality. They give out tips to help other RW get a green card easier and dump her husband. I have heard this stuff from a few RW who participate here and they are turned off by the agendas of some of the ladies on those forums.

Simoni, excellent blog you're writing. Add the link to your signature so it's easy access to read.

[Misha]

I have to agree I have seen a more casual attitude toward adultery in the FSU.  This recent article in Pravda seems to support this observation:

"Adultery is rather a social problem than a moral issue in Russia. According to the 1998 opinion poll, almost 40% of the Russians believed that an act of adultery was either “never a mistake” or “sometimes a mistake,” compared to 6% of the Americans who shared the viewpoint. Moscow psychologists say that an affair appears rather inevitable for those Russians who have to share their two-room apartments with in-laws. The number of Russians living in such deplorable conditions is high.

No nationwide survey of sexual practices has ever been conducted in Russia. However, the 1996 opinion poll found out that more than a half of Russian males and a quarter of women had admitted to cheating on their spouses."

Are we making the wrong assumption that it is more prevalent then most places just because it is more apparent?  Probably not, as the admitted rate of adultery is higher in Russia than in the US, though I think not as high as most people assume.  In a  study of over 10,000 Americans, 22% of married men and 15% of married women admitted to having cheated on their spouses and nearly half admitted to having been unfaithful to a partner at some point in their lives.

So with the Westernization of the FSU will the rate go up or down?

I read the article. Here is another quote with regards to adultery in Russia: "To some extent, money can offset the emotional pain caused by adultery once it comes to light. According to female respondents, an infidel spouse would typically buy a fur coat for his wife or pay for her vacation at a sea resort in Turkey."

Emotional pain? The question then is what should a RM do if he can't afford to buy a fur coat for his wife? So the moral of the story in Russia: it is okay to cheat if you have enough money for the lyubovnitsa (lover) and to compensate your wife's emotional pain. So much for traditional family values LOL!

Also, I can't figure out the logic behind the justification: "Moscow psychologists say that an affair appears rather inevitable for those Russians who have to share their two-room apartments with in-laws." Why is it inevitable? What is the link between living in cramped apartments with your extended family and having a fling with a woman (or man) who likely lives in a cramped two-room apartment? I can't see the link.

[Simoni]

Simoni, excellent blog you're writing. Add the link to your signature so it's easy access to read.

Thanks, BillyB.  I'll try doing that.

On a related note, I'm happy to say that the strongest and most loving relationships we've seen among RW/AM were between couples we met from RWD.

Same here  

[vwrw]

Probably not, as the admitted rate of adultery is higher in Russia than in the US, though I think not as high as most people assume. In a study of over 10,000 Americans, 22% of married men and 15% of married women admitted to having cheated on their spouses and nearly half admitted to having been unfaithful to a partner at some point in their lives.

vwrw: Is the result of the study such because American people have stronger moral or maybe because there are a lot of thick people who are motionless and do not want any sex, hence do not cheat their partner and make the results of the study looking better in the America?    Note, I do NOT assert anything.

However, I do believe if there were less sexy women in FSU then fewer men thought about cheating. And if there were more women who were ugly and unattractive then there were fewer women daring to cheat. 

[ScottinCrimea]

However, I do believe if there were less sexy women in FSU then fewer men thought about cheating. And if there were more women who were ugly and unattractive then there were fewer women daring to cheat. 

 

Maybe that's the real reason there is a difference.  A lot fewer men want sex with AW than FSUW.

[mspanky]

 Would that tehn mean RM are so sexy RW want to have affairs and accept being mistress ? I don't know. I did'nt think many RM are particularly attractive as to be able to have so many affairs even while married. I felt some of them should just be happy to have a wife let alone a mistress.

[KenC]

Maybe that's the real reason there is a difference.  A lot fewer men want sex with AW than FSUW.

Don't laugh so hard Scott,
WRW has a point!

I just discussed this thread with Lena and asked why so many more RW cheat than AW?  She answered that there were many more good looking men and women there than here!  She also sighted the fact that Russians have more contact with people through out their normal day too.  On the street, at the bus stop as well as at work or school.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

I wouldn't necessarily agree that there are more good looking men there than here, but you can buy your way around ugliness for a lot less money there.

[KenC]

Would that tehn mean RM are so sexy RW want to have affairs and accept being mistress ? I don't know. I did'nt think many RM are particularly attractive as to be able to have so many affairs even while married. I felt some of them should just be happy to have a wife let alone a mistress.

mspanky,
Read my post above as my wife has a different perspective than you.

I also would like to bring up the concept of economics.  There was a time (admitidly a few years back), when there was only a small percentage of RM that could even afford to be married.  This small group of wealthier men would also be in a position to afford a mistress.  So you have a small group of RM slurping up all the gravy!
KenC

[mspanky]

mspanky,
 So you have a small group of RM slurping up all the gravy!
KenC

 So then it's all about economics? The small group of men are able to slurp up all of the gravy because the women will accept being one of many in order to live the good life . That's insane! Even AW who are mistresses will not accept being one of many.

   What happened to being the only one and perhaps not living such a materialistic life but a happy one?

   I once knew a very wealthy carribbean surgeon who owned his own MRI and cleared about 2 mil a year. On top of that he owned tons of real estate in NYC. The guy was as ugly as any guy I've ever met and short to boot. Yet he had beautiful Indian herritage carribean women who were his mistresses. All much younger than him. They actually knew about each other. I think they could care less about him. All they cared about was competing at who got the most and who he might marry. I remember hearing one of the gals who worked as his office manager joke he may be ugly, but he was very generous. Those girls were no better than prostitutes. He paids to have women pretend to be in love with him. If all of his money was gone tomorrow I'd hate to see how quickly these women would split!

[KenC]

mspanky,
It isn't all about economics, but economics is a contributing factor, yes.

It is a different world there than here.  Lena tells me stories about a professor at her university in Russia that had regular drinking parties with his incoming female students.  He and his cohorts would get the young girls drunk and then pick which one to have for the night.  With no repercussions from the university at all.

I don't know how prevalent it is now, but before it was perfectly fine for a classified ad to be run for a job opening with the clear understanding that sex would be part of the job requirement.  There was a term for it, but I cannot remember it right now.  A different world for sure.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

One common term is "secretutka", a combination of "secretary" and "prostitutka".

[Gator]

Just spoke to my Moscow woman.

She said the following:

-  None of her married friends have a lover (cheat on their husbands).  They are focusing on their families.

-  All RM cheat.  Even those with difficult jobs find time to do it, if nothing more than a cheap hooker.

-  The husband of one of her good friends hit on her in front of his wife at a party.  The wife made light of it as if it were a joke, yet she seemed hurt.  Because my Moscow woman rejected the man, he told his wife that she could not see her friend again - and that ended the friendship.  As she said, "Who could be married to such a man!"

-  It is normal for young women to be a lover to charming married men.  For the woman to be his lover, it is natural that he will take care of her:  nice clothes, beautiful gifts, money for life expenses, etc.

-  Then she said something that shocked me.  She said in such cases the man is cheating but not the young woman.  "Should not a woman feel some guilt about breaking up a marriage?"  "No, it is the man who is deciding to cheat.  He is breaking up his marriage.  Why would a young woman feel bad about his wife.  She is only interested in the man, not his wife."   And I consider my Moscow woman to wear a white hat. 


We then started a long discussion about morality.  She continued to express that a young woman should feel no guilt.  She started rationalizing.  I do not know about other men's experience with rationalization, but when my Moscow woman starts I may as well move to another subject because nothing will change.  I usually stay around to hear the absurd explanations which somehow amuse me in a twisted way knowing that science and logic will fly out the window.  This time it was flabbergasting.

"It is acceptable for young women to be lovers to married men because there are not enough good single men in Russia."

"Is that really true about not enough men?"

"Of course.  You see it everywhere, there are more women than men.  It is obvious when you must go to the toilet.  Moscow has few public toilets.  Today, the line at the women's toilets at McDonald's went outside to the street.  Men's toilets had no line.  See, more women than men."

Good night, darling.

[catzenmouse]

Gator,

 If you ever have any doubts just remember this:

 1: You are wrong

 2: She is right

 3: Refer to #1 and #2 again

Follow these simple rules and you'll do just fine. 

Ken

[Kuna]

"Of course.  You see it everywhere, there are more women than men.  It is obvious when you must go to the toilet.  Moscow has few public toilets.  Today, the line at the women's toilets at McDonald's went outside to the street.  Men's toilets had no line.  See, more women than men."

 

That's fabulous...

Gator, it it exactly what I love about RW (well, My Girl).  The logic is SO obvious no matter how flawed it is.

[groovlstk]

-  Then she said something that shocked me.  She said in such cases the man is cheating but not the young woman.  "Should not a woman feel some guilt about breaking up a marriage?"  "No, it is the man who is deciding to cheat.  He is breaking up his marriage.  Why would a young woman feel bad about his wife.  She is only interested in the man, not his wife."   

Gator,

My wife told me a funny anecdote about one of her former colleagues in Moscow. This girl was beautiful and very happily married, yet entertained scads of lovers because she loved sex and wasn't getting enough in her marriage to satisfy her. This woman did not consider her behavior adultery because she forced her lovers to wear preservativs and thus insisted they were never truly "intimate."  While this girl would never let her husband know of her indescretions, she insisted she loved him completely and would never consider having a relationship with another man that went beyond sex.

[BC]

I have never seen a men's line at the toilet longer than the women's.. and I have traveled quite a bit.

Men are men and will 'travel' regardless of the color of their passport.  Same applies to women. Quite honestly the playing field is quite equal around the world..

If anything, the difference lies in the ability (or inability) to speak about the subject in real terms.

[BillyB]

Just spoke to my Moscow woman.

She said the following:

-  All RM cheat.  Even those with difficult jobs find time to do it, if nothing more than a cheap hooker.

Wow Gator, Your lady's line of thinking is similar to WmGo in that she says ALL RM cheat without exceptions. Of course this is not true but if repeated enough times by their friends, mother, and babushkas, ladies will believe as they believe having a cold drink will make you ill.

Since many RW resort to the fact that all RM cheat, they have to accept and tolerate this so called "fact" if they do indeed marry a RM and thus with that line of thinking by the women, it gives RM a free pass to cheat in their marriage without much consequence. Cheating is to be "expected".

In the FSU I did notice FSU couple's with large age differences walking around. Probably the older married RM with young RW mistress. It's no surprise some/many RW accept men of larger age differences than their western sisters.

[Mir]

I have never seen a men's line at the toilet longer than the women's.. and I have traveled quite a bit.

BC

I am sure you know the reason for that

[ScottinCrimea]

I want to branch out a bit and discuss #7 of WmGO's list of the eight deadly sins of FSUW:

7. There is a much higher rate of various mental illnesses in the FSU than elsewhere (not exactly on topic, but relevant - a LOT of ladies with mental issues are on the websites).

I've been searching the web and can't seem to find any data that backs this up.  I did read that the rate of mental illness is consistently within a range of 17-29% in all countries in one study, which would make sense since a large percentage of mental illnesses is related to genetics rather than environment.  What some may be seeing is not necessarily an increased rate of occurrence, but rather a lower rate of treatment, particularly with minor conditions.  I can't say that I really saw a higher percentage of those that I would consider mentally ill in Ukraine, but then I worked in an environment in the US where I would tend to see much more than the average person.  anyone who has spent any amount of time working in the psych ER of LA County Hospital would tend to have a skewed view of things.

We may be more quick to attach a definition of mental illness to someone here in the US or more willing to treat those who have temporary or situational condition such as depression.  There are a lot of variables and I'm curious to see if anyone can come up with some hard statistics rather than just foundless generalizing commentary.

[Mir]

VWRW and I discussed this long ago I think she worded it very slightly differently and in a way that I think is quite a good goal.   Her words to me before were that she wants to be an American from Russia and not a Russian living in America.   I have seen a few people who have so totally lost their accent and mastered English that you would not know they were Russian if they did not tell you.  Some of these had only been here a few years.  VWRW is about the most determined and motivated person I have met and I would consider her goal achievable but challenging.

This reminded me of an interesting period in Russian history. When Tsar Peter the Great returned from his tour of Europe in 1698 he decided that his courtiers will all become Western. So the nobels were ordered to shave off their beards, learn French, dress, eat and behave like Western (more specifically French) men.
Peter personally adapted a German manual that give detailed guidance to his subjects as how they should behave.
Interestingly Peter did not want them to become Western, but to act Western! as he writes in the manual: 'The Russian nobleman is to imagine himself in the company of foreigners while, at the same time, remaining conscious of himself as a Russian. The point was not to become a European, but rather to act as one. Like an actor with an eye to his own image on the stage,the nobleman was told to observe his own behaviour from a Russian point of view. It was the only way to judge foreignness.'
So the Russians were asked to act as Europeans in Russia and vwrw wants to act as an American in America (from Russia).

Anyway the point is that the immigrants relationship to his/her new country is like a persons relationship to his/her spouse. It is optional, one chooses to live with this certain person like one chooses to live in this new country.One can decide to leave the partner just like one can decide to move to another country. While the relation to you country of birth and where you have spent your formative years is like with your parents. You have no option to chose this/them, you can leave but you cannot change it.
I think she will feel better if she keeps close ties with her Russianess, afterall that is what marks her individual style when she moves to America.