Character Problems with RM and RW

[jen]

Again, this is a really interesting thread. I'd be curious to hear more about what people think about the "character flaws" on both sides...there were a few comments from those of you who have been traveling in the FSU and/or on tours about all the questionable guys you have come across...I guess we have all heard stories about "sex tourist" behavior...are there any other common trends you have seen in terms of negative traits?  Any stories you can share (without names, of course)? ...Perhaps there are some guys out there who have "good intentions" (as they see it) but have too little cross-cultural experience to go about things in a thoughtful and sensitive way?

j.

[Gator]

Jen,

It is good to see you posting again.  I will answer you in two parts.  First, qualities of FSU women and then qualities of Western men.

With regard to character flaws of RW, so what!  They have so much else going for them.

This thread started in response to some interesting opinions about RW and RM as voiced by three smart Russian women who post here frequently.

Yes, RW have certain behavior patterns that some men may find less than ideal.  Personally, virtually all of my experiences have been glorious if not splendid. 
“Stubbornness” and “lack of tact” are frequently mentioned by some men.   I do not see these as faults – instead, I equate the two to “determination” and being “pragmatic and forthright”. 

Those are good qualities in my book and dovetail with how I live.  Akin to Darwinism, these qualities have evolved to enable RW to adapt to obstacles that most AW would never encounter.  They are qualities of a survivor. 

There are perhaps a significant percentage of RW who have taken on some dark survivor qualities such as deception.   If a man takes his time, the truth will be known.  More importantly, there are so many FSU women with ample good qualities that a man can dream of finding a woman who is:

Kuna from another thread,

Loving
Caring
Sweet
Beautiful
Meticulous
Charismatic
Gentle
Vivacious
Motivated
Organised
Imaginative
Sensitive
Pragmatic
Delicious
Thoughtful
Playful
Incredibly Funny
Adventurous
Brave
... and most of all, perfect for me!

These qualities derive in part from the core soul of Kuna's woman, yet we must recognize that they reflect how she feels about her Kuna.  Two people in love. 

I assert that much of the rudeness and other bad behavior (short of scamming) reported by Western men is nothing more than the behavior of RW who are not interested in the man. 

This takes us to the second part, character flaws of Western men.

[KenC]

Gator,
Where there may be some confusion here is that we are really discussing the character traits for RW who are open to the idea of pursuing a foreign husband and not necessarily prevalent in all RW.  I would think that there would be some common characteristics displayed by women willing to entertain the thought of uprooting her life and venture into another country and culture.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

I also agree here with Ken C

these character traits are typical for Russian women who are open to the idea of pursuing a foreign husband , not every russian woman

Actually I can think of such features of russian women characters, considering for example  some of my female friends, I do not know why and how come they have such features of the character , but I 've noticed so many of them during the past weeks, they've changed cos I remember when I met them and started friendship with them , their views were similar to what I was thinking about life and relations and things

they are:

shy
modest
undecisive
always pay attention to what other people say about their character appearance life and so on
inaccessible
envious
high self esteem
imperious, commanding
hysterical
melancholic
trully believe that they are the best among the other girls
blue girls with their own special dreams
want their men to be all and everything matching in their list
want to marry and relax that they've achieved everything already and there is nothing they should strive for...

and many many other features which might be very similar not only to russian women but to all women in general

[Misha]

I also agree here with Ken C

blue girls with their own special dreams

Jazzy, what do you mean by blue girls? Do you mean depressed? Sad?

[Jazzyclassy]

You do not know the other meaning of the word Blue

it can mean  a dreamy person the person who is dreaming all of his life

so sometimes they usually say : Oh she is a blue girl

Our professor at Uni was always telling that , they say sometimes blue boy or blue girl pointing out that the person is living in the dream , but I looked up in the dictionary now and I feel stupid , well I guess I will have to tell him that he is a piss poor professor ;P

but I guess it is a bookish word , it was used in Iris Murdoch novels

well anyway the girls who are living in a dream all their lives I do not know how to call them else

[Gator]

KenC,

We all know that the subset of RW seeking to marry a foreigner is very small compared to all RW in general. My experience is limited with the large group of RW.  I have met some friends of the RW I dated, but the language barrier prevented an in-depth conversation.  Most were married to RM or had boyfriends and seem satisfied with their situation.  So, in effect, I have nothing to say.

The most common two traits of RW that I dated - they were adventurous and they were seeking stability.  No surprises there.  There were other common traits; however, such reflect the fact that I had corresponded with each of them before meeting them and had selected qualities that I prize such as intellectual curiosity and sense of humor.

Did I observe a common negative trait that may not be in a woman happy with her Russian man/men?   Not really.  As I said before, my experiences with RW were glorious - I have not seen anything negative about the RW I met.  Some I could not live with, but that because of an individual quirk, not common to all, and it does not mean she would be unsuitable for the next AM, and besides I am a difficult man to live with.  

[SANDRO43]

it can mean  a dreamy person the person who is dreaming all of his life so sometimes they usually say : Oh she is a blue girl. Our professor at Uni was always telling that , they say sometimes blue boy or blue girl pointing out that the person is living in the dream

Never heard that, but maybe it's a new usage. Blue traditionally meant "sad" (hence, the blues), as in:

Trouble In Mind
Trouble in mind I'm blue
But I won't be blue always
'Cause the sun's gonna shine
On my back door someday

I'm gonna lay down my head
On some lonesome railroad line
And let the two-nineteen
Ease my troubled mind

I'm goin' down the river
Gonna take my rockin' chair
And if them blues don't leave me
I'll rock right out of here

I'm all alone at midnight
And the lamp is burnin' low
I've never had so much
Trouble in my life

etc. (MIDI steel-guitar version attached).

well anyway the girls who are living in a dream all their lives I do not know how to call them else

"Dreamy" (that being the most charitable definition ).

[vwrw]

Every single woman I have ever met in my life was dreaming to meet an attractive, smart, successful, generous, etc man to be her husband. Unfortunately, there are MANY less men having the all above mentioned qualities than women who would like to have relationship with such men. The hard competition among women for attention of the desirable men leads to following scenario.

I had been working among 22 wealthy Russian men (who were owner the company I worked in) for 9 years. There were reasons why they preferred to make friends with me, so they did…and I had a wonderful opportunity to watch their private life in their families and not only. 20 of the 22 men repeatedly, continually and almost openly cheat their spouses and girlfriends with girls who KNEW that the men are married. My bosses NEVER hidden from the girls their marital status but the fact did not seemingly bother the girl at all. Some of the girls did a lot to “convince” the men to leave their families and relationship by all imaginable means. And some of the men indeed got divorced.

Wives usually knew about their husbands’ behavior but preferred to play as they did not. 

So what prospects does a FSU woman have?
1.   She can try to seduce a desirable man to marriage and to live in continuous fear that her husband may disappear somehow. Far not all women are able to live with the fear…IMO most women will be emotionally broken during 2-3 years
2.   She can marry an average man. But life is an unpredictable thing and IF “tomorrow” the average man becomes the reach one there will emerge a lot of resourceful, beautiful, etc, girl who will “convince” the man to leave his family as well…or if the man remains average the family may lead happy but deprived life.

I personally did not want to live alone and saw both of the prospects as unattractive. Only I am still not sure what is the cause of the problem…is it men’s character and that fact that men do what they CAN… or maybe the problem is in women’s character and their amoral behavior in chasing of desirable men.

I am very happy that the idea of finding man abroad came to my mind. I think this is the best way out from the existing situation.

Gator, I read in your posts some times that you think FSU women have solid family values. I think Blues Fairy and Lily will agree with me that there are a lot of FSU women who is dating married or “committed” men and if they can they broke families/relationships of the men. I am curious what are basis for your thinking FSU women have solid family values?

From Gator: Could it be that in some if not many cases the RW simply did not like the foreigner, and his description of the meeting paints her black, when she easily could be a sweetheart for a man of her liking?

vwrw: I saw many times as heartless bitch in relationship with one man turned into sweetheart in relationship with another man and on the contrary I think very often a woman treats her man as he allows her to treat him… regardless he is foreigner or Russian.   

[Misha]

Every single woman I have ever met in my life was dreaming to meet an attractive, smart, successful, generous, etc man to be her husband. Unfortunately, there are MANY less men having the all above mentioned qualities than women who would like to have relationship with such men. The hard competition among women for attention of the desirable men leads to following scenario.

Gator, I read in your posts some times that you think FSU women have solid family values. I think Blues Fairy and Lily will agree with me that there are a lot of FSU women who is dating married or “committed” men and if they can they broke families/relationships of the men. I am curious what are basis for your thinking FSU women have solid family values?

From Gator: Could it be that in some if not many cases the RW simply did not like the foreigner, and his description of the meeting paints her black, when she easily could be a sweetheart for a man of her liking?

vwrw: I saw many times as heartless bitch in relationship with one man turned into sweetheart in relationship with another man and on the contrary I think very often a woman treats her man as he allows her to treat him… regardless he is foreigner or Russian.   

I agree with VWRW here. My wife friend's husband was always hitting on her, even when his wife was on the other room. He told my wife that the wanted her as a lover. She told him to go to a few choice Russian letters. Hell, he sent her an e-mail still hitting on her when she was already married an in Canada 

Another acquaintance of my wife fell in love with a married man. She is now a single mother with a baby that is likely hers. It is likely the same old story whether it happens in Russia or elsewhere: married man convinces young woman that he will soon leave his nasty wife, she falls for it, she finally figures out that he won't go, she gets pregnant, he dumps her immediately...

With most of my male friends in Russia who are successful, it is expected that they will have a mistress.

[William3rd]

Damn- I would hope that the baby would be hers. I have heard of a lost weekend but never a lost gestation. . . . . .

[Gator]

VWRW wrote,

I am still not sure what is the cause of the problem…is it men’s character and that fact that men do what they CAN… or maybe the problem is in women’s character and their amoral behavior in chasing of desirable men.

What you describe is decadent.  I have heard the same from other RW.  There are some American men who have trouble keeping their unit in their pants, but not to the degree seen in the FSU. I suppose the reasons in the FSU could be many:

1.   Sexual harassment laws are lax.

2.   Divorce and alimony are neither punitive to men nor protective of women, so wives reluctantly accept the behavior.
 
3.   Men have few hobbies or organized sports, and womanizing is their only sport/hobby.

4.   RM are solipsistic.

5.   Usually there is some form of sponsorship which would be an incentive for women.

6.   This is the way it has always been, at least since the Great Patriotic War (i. e., your “men CAN” reason).

7.   Little boys and girls are attracted to each other and are looking for love.

How many of these apply in America?   Only No. 4 and 7. The situation is so prevalent in the FSU that a couple of RW even told me that I could have a girlfriend on the side, but do not tell her.

This raises a couple of questions.  Who are the women doing this?  Sex as I know it involves one man and one woman.  So unless one woman is servicing many men, the number of cuckold husbands equals the number of unfaithful husbands.   This would not be true if the "girlfriends" are not married but young single women looking for love/sponsor.  If the young women are banging married men, what do the young single men do?  Service older women, particularly neglected wives, or share their girlfriends with married men?

[Gator]

I am curious what are basis for your thinking FSU women have solid family values?

I base this on three observations:

1.  A family in Russia is almost tribal; friends are important but family are the only people a person can trust.  In the time of need, family is summoned.  Important decisions are made as a family.  My Cossack became committed to me and the goal of moving to America only after discussing it with her mama and her godmother and getting the father's acknowledgment (and she was 41-yo).

2.  Social activities seem to focus more on family than friends, at least more than I have seen in America. 

3.  The single Russian mothers I have met are very devoted to their children and will sacrifice without complaint more than I have seen single AW mothers do.

BTW, Russian families are not as strong as a couple of families that I got to know in Iran many years ago.  Weddings were arranged there because a marriage was not so much a marriage of a young man and woman as a marriage of families.

[Gator]

Jen,

You had asked about charcter flaws of Western men.  During your absence from RWD, we released a set of draft guidelines for men’s behavior when dating FSU women.  Perhaps these will address part of your question. 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5853.0

With regard to anecdotes about seriously bad behavior of Western men, you may wish to read AntiDate:

http://www.antidate.org/

As part of developing the above guidelines, a committee member surveyed the opinions of AntiDate members.  I will look for his survey and send it to you by PM, hopefully in a couple of days.

In developing the guidelines, we also conducted a soft survey of agencies, who see the good and bad men come through their doors.  Dan asked agencies an open-ended question:  “How many men who contact your agency are ‘bad’ men who you feel should be on a 'blacklist'?”  The responses indicate that about 5% of the men should be on a blacklist (with one agency adding the "same percentage we have of lady scammers").

Thus, one could say the sex tourists and other really bad characters are not a significant percentage, unless you happen to have been a RW seduced by one.

[Jazzyclassy]

I think this character list of Russian women traits is so relative

Nowadays Russian women changed completely in comparison with some maybe 10 years generation, even this generation is quite  career prospective , will step onto people's heads in order to get whatever position they want, will flirt and be lovers to married men , do not like to cook and properly can not cook, hate to clean up  the house and things, prefer to live the life of the western women , they want to suit the category of Cosmopolitan Paris Hilton Victoria Beckham girl and so on
Do not mind to have many marriages
want to struggle with men for their independent rights
want to be leaders at home, at work , on the road while driving the car and so on
before marriage wont ask any money from the partner, as soon as they become their official wives , husband's credit card limit collapses , cos she is making up for those days when she only dated him for example

If you still can not notice this then you gotta open up your eyes ......

[Kuna]

Jazzy,  I fear you might be right...  I think the dating site marketing about "traditional girls" is well and truly over-hyped and even if true WM don't understand a traditional woman. (I can't say I precisely know who or what a "traditional woman" is even though I have been very lucky in the person I've found)

When I was in Ukraine I saw some similar traits to those I see at home so I hope Ukraine doesn't totally lose it culture and values as has happened in the west.

Kuna

[vwrw]

1.  A family in Russia is almost tribal; friends are important but family are the only people a person can trust.  In the time of need, family is summoned.  Important decisions are made as a family.  My Cossack became committed to me and the goal of moving to America only after discussing it with her mama and her godmother and getting the father's acknowledgment (and she was 41-yo).

2.  Social activities seem to focus more on family than friends, at least more than I have seen in America. 

3.  The single Russian mothers I have met are very devoted to their children and will sacrifice without complaint more than I have seen single AW mothers do.

BTW, Russian families are not as strong as a couple of families that I got to know in Iran many years ago.  Weddings were arranged there because a marriage was not so much a marriage of a young man and woman as a marriage of families.

Well Gator, now I understood that by having solid family values you implied respect to native relatives and devotion to children.
I agree with the three points you bring to light. However, for me the family is a husband, his wife, their children plus relatives. What do you think about absence a point regarding a husband in your list? As if the husband does not become an integral part of a family…or I again got something wrong?

Also I am curious GUYS, when you read the information that FSU women have strong family values on an agency’s site do you understand that the words imply the Gator’s list or that the words imply something else, for example FSU wife will trust you more than everyone else or she will make important decisions by discussing them with you and then notifying other family about the decision, not on the contrary? 

[vwrw]

This raises a couple of questions.  Who are the women doing this?  Sex as I know it involves one man and one woman.  So unless one woman is servicing many men, the number of cuckold husbands equals the number of unfaithful husbands.   This would not be true if the "girlfriends" are not married but young single women looking for love/sponsor.  If the young women are banging married men, what do the young single men do?  Service older women, particularly neglected wives, or share their girlfriends with married men?

vwrw: The women who dated with my ex-bosses were 18-27 years old, very attractive, smarter than average FSU woman, single (though I am sure there were a lot of nice, average FSU men who could be happy to marry them)   

What do the young single men do? I think they work a lot trying to become one of successful men and receive emotional traumas due to rejections of described above girls. Maybe Jazzy can give us more comprehensive answer what the men do? 

I think most FSU women marry FSU average men and I do not think they cheat each other. a) Most of this people cannot spend their working time doing own affairs. b) Most of them have boring or hard job that makes them really tired to the evening and probably unable to seduce even own wife to sex, so what to say about other women.

Well, if close to the point I could divide all the FSU women who are interested to find man abroad into 4 groups:
1.   Divorced after official/unofficial marriage with the average FSU men – they would have some common characteristics and character problems.
2.   Divorced after official/unofficial marriage with the reach FSU men – they would have some common characteristics and character problems.
3.   Those who were never married and are not attracted by prospect to marry ANY FSU man– they would have some common characteristics and character problems.
4.   Those who cannot attract even average FSU man - they would have some common characteristics and character problems.
I think if we bring to light the some common characteristics and character problems in each of the four groups we could determine the some common characteristics displayed by women willing to entertain the thought of uprooting her life and venture into another country and culture.
 

[Blues Fairy]

As if "average" guys would not cheat on their wives and girlfriends!  Cheating IMO has more to do with the urge for self-assertion than with social standing or anything else.  Cheater likes to conquer.  Same applies to 20+ girls who seduce their bosses.

I would guess that a happy fulfilled person would not have this cheating urge as much as a repressed office rat or stressed-out boss who feel the world owes them something better than they've already got. 

And yes, guys feel exempt from punishment.  As kids, they could punch a girl and never be scolded by their adoring Moms.  As adults, they can hit on women in the presence of their wives and refuse to be reproached.  If nagged, they would get defensive and leave.   

[Lily]

I suppose the reasons in the FSU could be many:

1.   Sexual harassment laws are lax.

2.   Divorce and alimony are neither punitive to men nor protective of women, so wives reluctantly accept the behavior.
 
3.   Men have few hobbies or organized sports, and womanizing is their only sport/hobby.

4.   RM are solipsistic.

5.   Usually there is some form of sponsorship which would be an incentive for women.

6.   This is the way it has always been, at least since the Great Patriotic War (i. e., your “men CAN” reason).

7.   Little boys and girls are attracted to each other and are looking for love.

How many of these apply in America?   Only No. 4 and 7. The situation is so prevalent in the FSU that a couple of RW even told me that I could have a girlfriend on the side, but do not tell her.

This raises a couple of questions.  Who are the women doing this?  Sex as I know it involves one man and one woman.  So unless one woman is servicing many men, the number of cuckold husbands equals the number of unfaithful husbands.   This would not be true if the "girlfriends" are not married but young single women looking for love/sponsor.  If the young women are banging married men, what do the young single men do?  Service older women, particularly neglected wives, or share their girlfriends with married men?

Gator, I am amazed on your sharp grasp of reasons why RM cheat on their wives.

[Zadan]

VWRW, I interpret the phrase "strong family values" for a woman to imply that she puts her family as a ahead of herself. By family I take it to mean particularly her children and more holistically the so-called nuclear family unit (father, children, mother etc).

VWRW, when you say:

Well, if close to the point I could divide all the FSU women who are interested to find man abroad into 4 groups:
1.   Divorced after official/unofficial marriage with the average FSU men – they would have some common characteristics and character problems.
2.   Divorced after official/unofficial marriage with the reach FSU men – they would have some common characteristics and character problems.
3.   Those who were never married and are not attracted by prospect to marry ANY FSU man– they would have some common characteristics and character problems.
4.   Those who cannot attract even average FSU man - they would have some common characteristics and character problems.

All four of the groups you list involve a woman with character problems. Do you believe it is the case then that all FSU women who would seek a man abroad have some kind of character problem? I find that difficult to accept. Could it not be that she could have had no problem attracting many men, but for whatever reason didn't find any of them suitable for her?

[Zadan]

As if "average" guys would not cheat on their wives and girlfriends!  Cheating IMO has more to do with the urge for self-assertion than with social standing or anything else.  Cheater likes to conquer.  Same applies to 20+ girls who seduce their bosses.

I would guess that a happy fulfilled person would not have this cheating urge as much as a repressed office rat or stressed-out boss who feel the world owes them something better than they've already got. 
...

I have had a few friends (AM) who were not faithful. I would sometimes ask them how they could do it. Their answers varied, but my impression was simply that they saw women in an objectified way and all the world to them was a candy shop. I also thought that they simply didn't form very meaningful, deep relationships with women. (Why that is, I still sometimes wonder.) I would say something like: "If you like this new one, why don't you just break up with the other one?" To which I'd receive a reply like: "but I still like her too".

For some, maybe they would cheat if they are unhappy. In my experience though a person who is unfaithful does so simply because they can.

And yes, guys feel exempt from punishment.  As kids, they could punch a girl and never be scolded by their adoring Moms.  As adults, they can hit on women in the presence of their wives and refuse to be reproached.  If nagged, they would get defensive and leave.   

Wow!!!!  I remember a couple girls in school who hit me just because they could. We dared not ever hit them back, lest we wanted to get in trouble and harm the innocent little delicate flowery girls. IMO, a WM who even gets caught looking in the wrong direction at another attractive woman might be sleeping on the couch that night. Should he be so brazen as to hit on another woman in her presence, he'd lose her as inexplicably as losing his car keys.

What is interesting to me in all this, is that women so intensely pursue the 'desirable' men in the FSU. Here (U.S.) that doesn't seem to happen to such an extent.  It makes sense though, no wonder interpreters and a womans' friends so readily hit on a WM in the FSU.

[vwrw]

From Zadan: I interpret the phrase "strong family values" for a woman to imply that she puts her family as a ahead of herself. By family I take it to mean particularly her children and more holistically the so-called nuclear family unit (father, children, mother etc).

vwrw: So, a husband is not part of the “family values”? Then where could woman with "strong family values" put her husband?
   
From Zadan: Do you believe it is the case then that all FSU women who would seek a man abroad have some kind of character problem?

vwrw: Basing on my belief that there are not perfect or ideal people in the world, even in Russia  , I do assume that all FSU women who would seek a man abroad have some kind of character problem. Still I must admit that having some character problem does not hinder FSU women to be very adorable and endearing.

[Misha]

As if "average" guys would not cheat on their wives and girlfriends!  Cheating IMO has more to do with the urge for self-assertion than with social standing or anything else.  Cheater likes to conquer.  Same applies to 20+ girls who seduce their bosses.

I would guess that a happy fulfilled person would not have this cheating urge as much as a repressed office rat or stressed-out boss who feel the world owes them something better than they've already got. 

And yes, guys feel exempt from punishment.  As kids, they could punch a girl and never be scolded by their adoring Moms.  As adults, they can hit on women in the presence of their wives and refuse to be reproached.  If nagged, they would get defensive and leave.   

I agree and would add that for many men who are the serial cheaters, I would argue that it is also a way of puffing up their egos and proving something to themselves and the world around them. It is "look at me, I am the man. Women want me." It is rarely about the sex.

[jen]

Jen,

You had asked about charcter flaws of Western men.  During your absence from RWD, we released a set of draft guidelines for men’s behavior when dating FSU women.  Perhaps these will address part of your question. 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5853.0

With regard to anecdotes about seriously bad behavior of Western men, you may wish to read AntiDate:

http://www.antidate.org/

As part of developing the above guidelines, a committee member surveyed the opinions of AntiDate members.  I will look for his survey and send it to you by PM, hopefully in a couple of days.

In developing the guidelines, we also conducted a soft survey of agencies, who see the good and bad men come through their doors.  Dan asked agencies an open-ended question:  “How many men who contact your agency are ‘bad’ men who you feel should be on a 'blacklist'?”  The responses indicate that about 5% of the men should be on a blacklist (with one agency adding the "same percentage we have of lady scammers").

Thus, one could say the sex tourists and other really bad characters are not a significant percentage, unless you happen to have been a RW seduced by one.

Hi Gator --

Thanks for the tips. I did actually see the code of ethics that's been drafted -- as I said, I haven't been totally absent, I've been dropping to see what's going on, I just haven't managed to post for a while.

I am familiar somewhat with Antidate, but the survey you mentioned would be very useful to see. If you're able to find and send it, I'll appreciate it.

j.