Opinions please

[I/O]

demre514 : Welcome to RWD. You've made a measured and interesting post to start with. I like your style, it all makes sense on paper and I've no doubt it worked for you, but much of it is somewhat ignorant.

To discard the major cities is rather narrow minded I would have thought. It smells a bit to me like someone who is suggesting they can't make it with the big league. As for the women being westernised, I've read quite few posts erring to this thought process recently and I call the writers to wake up fast. If a woman from Moscow or Kiev or for that matter Omsk, where my wife is from, is somewhat westernised as my wife is by Russian standards, wouldn't it be better for them to have already become that way and still be that special woman you are seeking. The point is, if they are inclind that way, they are going to become westernised pretty soon after arrival and then the question begs, are you what they really wanted.

The whole thought process seems to me to self terminate because what these guys are saying is get 'em unwesternised. WTF? How long have you got before they are westernised? 1 year? 5? How long. Self defeating project if one is relying on her being non westernised to keep her as one's wife.

Personally, I would rather someone who had their own means as my wife's family did. One who didn't go short of anything she needed, nor much of what she wanted. One who was educated, twice in fact. One who had flicked a few potential suitors. One who says to me that if I died tomorrow, not to worry about her means here because she would be going straight back to Russia. One who doesn't need me.

I've always thought (and said) the one you need is the one who doesn't need you.

Notwithstanding, I do agree to the extent that there is some very fine and classy, well educated ladies in some of the provincial locations. Having knocked around Russia a little, I had a fair idea of what to expect when I first visited my wife in her home city. I was wrong. It was economically far in front of what I expected. Her lifestyle was waaaaaaaayyyy in front of my pictured thoughts. It pleased me no end because I could immediately see she certainly didn't need a ticket out. That is the point one needs to watch out for.

As for agencies, you get a tick from me. IMO you are pretty much spot on. I like your approach to meeting local women. Based on your proviso that learning Russian is a must, I am certain that would work very well in many cities, not only the mid sized ones.

You are spot on that traditional does not mean slave, but sorry I don't agree with the option to go live there if things are too tough, just like my mother 50 years back promised my father that she would go and stay and make the best of wherever his work/business/enterprise was. She has stuck to her word. That is traditional, the epitome of same. If you have a prior reason or your work or lifestyle improvement takes you to her country then so be it, but other than that, she knew the deal from the get go. Sorry, that's a tough view but it is mine. If I ever choose to leave my own country (and that is never ruled out) it will be for the lifestyle/financial betterment of my family, not for emotional reasons.

Ukraine: I suspect you'll get taken to task by those married to decent Ukrainian women and there is many decent ones, many, however based on my impressions from two trips there over time, I am inclind to somewhat support your point of view. Your premise becomes more significant the poorer the country.

A solid opening post and a pleasure to see another guy with some experience join in here. Again, welcome.

I/O


 

[Lily]

I do take exception to your advice to avoid Moscow and St Pietr.  If the Moscow ladies are too westernized for your taste, let me just mention, that westernization helps, not hinders, the adjustment and adaption process for the FSU woman.  A man will also run a better chance of finding in Moscow, or St Pete, a woman to his taste that already has decent English skills, which, IMHO, is a big step in the right direction.   Of course, there are also the two respective universities, with MSU being the science center and Pietr being the place for the arts.  Any man who snags a woman with an education from either university has found the golden fleece.  These are the real gems of Russia.
 

Thank you jb, you really put some balm on my soul.. I totally agree that a westernized RM does not necessarily mean a spoiled woman. For istance, I truly believe that many women combine the best of a genuine RW with being internationally savvy at the same time.

Also I think that for many Russians going to Moscow means almost a sole possibility to earn their living, and to lead a fulfilling life. Out of Moscow, out of job and out of everything in life. For instance, I am from Samara but I work and rent a little home in Moscow. In my home town I would just starve!

[jb]

Lily,

How could I not tout the virtues of the Moscow women?  My wife is a native born Moscovichka, she graduated from MSU's math and physics department, (English is the language of physics, so she had to study English from early on).  While she is certainly sophisticated and cosmopolitan, she is hardly spoiled.  She is a very hard worker and enjoys her career as well as her married life.  To me, that's the best of both worlds.

[groovlstk]

Lily,

How could I not tout the virtues of the Moscow women?  My wife is a native born Moscovichka, she graduated from MSU's math and physics department, (English is the language of physics, so she had to study English from early on).  While she is certainly sophisticated and cosmopolitan, she is hardly spoiled.  She is a very hard worker and enjoys her career as well as her married life.  To me, that's the best of both worlds.

Count me in here too, Lily. Like JB's wife, mine is a native Muskovite and she met me on equal terms. Never once did I worry that she fell in love with my wallet rather than my heart, and since then whenever someone urges guys to look for a wife in poor cities, my first thought is that they simply can't attract women who aren't in desperate economic straits.

[Gator]

Demre's distaste for Big City women is revealed in his words, "In big cities, people are rather westernized."

What's wrong with being westernized?  Almost all RW will live in the West after marriage.  Our plans are to take the best from both of our cultures.

Also, Moscow women are rather particular.  Money will not win their hearts.  There are plenty of RM with some money.  Nor will merely being from the West suffice.  They know what they want and will not leave until they get it.  So a man better be clicking on all cylinders.

Personally, I prefer a sophisticated woman.  I will never forget dinner with a medical doctor from a mid-size Ukrainian city.  She ate her meat by letting it dangle from her fork held high and chewing from the bottom to the top.  No, not all UW eat this way.  Few, in fact.

In contrast, my Moscow fiancee knows everything about proper table etiquette, not just the simple do's and don'ts, having been taught by her grandmother, a former stage actress.  She knows a lot more to.  Yet, she will still take a leak in public behind a tree without hesitation, without complaint.

Russian women have an interesting heritage, particularly those from the big cities.

[demre514]

Hi guys, thanks for welcome messages to all.

ABOUT MOSCOW/ST.PETERSBURG WOMEN:

It seems I was misunderstood. Please read it carefully guys:

5. DON'T GO TO MOSCOW OR PETERSBURG:
In big cities, people are rather westernized. It is not good or bad but, you can find westernized women in USA more easily. Why go to Russia for that? In other cities, however, women usually don't speak english, so returning back to #1. Learn Russian.

I am not against them. I just said they are not many different from their western counterparts, so why you guys go there? They are westernized? American women are already western. They speak english? Well, Half of American women can speak english as well!!! They are beautiful? There are many beautiful women in USA... They are rather career-oriented? So what about American women? In brief, I just said: IF YOU GO TO RUSSIA TO FIND SOULMATE, YOU SHOULD LOOK FOR SOMEONE DIFFERENT. OTHERWISE, YOU DON'T NEED TO GO THERE.

I sorta feel sorry for the guy who delays his trips and spends a few years getting fluent in Russian then goes and meets his dream gal who happens to be fluent in English.

First of all, I said "intermediate", and not "fluent". Many people go to Russia 1-2 year after they started to search, and they spend this time in front of computer, looking to model-like photos. If they study Russian in this time instead of looking all FSUW in internet, writing e-mails, paying for traslation, etc..., it is enough to speak russian fairly. In this way, they don't need to delay their trip and they would have better chances. However, it requires strong will and it is not as easy as surfing on internet...

I also studied Russian, courses with books, but after 6 years with a wife who speaks fluent English, I find myself using it less and less.

Knowledge of Russian is necessary to increase your chance to find your dream woman. It is up to you to continue to speak with her in Russian at home or forget it completely in time...

I'm curious as to why you rule out Ukrainian women since there are many ethnic Russians still living in that region.  I suspect you'll find little traction for that idea around here.

I didn't go to Ukraine in order to find someone, yet I met many Ukranians who is extremely willing to be my love! I haven't had such experience in Russia, even before I met my wife. She and her family were against the idea that we will live out of Russia, but I managed to convince them.

The whole thought process seems to me to self terminate because what these guys are saying is get 'em unwesternised. WTF? How long have you got before they are westernised? 1 year? 5? How long. Self defeating project if one is relying on her being non westernised to keep her as one's wife.   

What is WTF? White T? Female... Anyway, I doubt we refer to same thing when we say "westernized"... I refer to personality and I believe that the basics of one's personality does not change after 18-20 years old.... You probably refer to something else??? or you believe that personality can change?

*******************

BTW, it is out of this topic, but I read somewhere that one should not get married with her in her homeland because blah...blah...blah.... 
Is it normal to force a woman to forget her wedding dreams? Most of women dream a wedding ceremony before getting married, and usually their family, friends and their customs are involved in this dream...
*** In Canada, there is no fiancée visa, so I don't know if it is related to this process... 

[Misha]

*** In Canada, there is no fiancée visa, so I don't know if it is related to this process... 

Yes. There was a fiancée visa years ago, but it was scrapped. Unless you can show that you have a legitimate marriage there is no way that your wife will be able to get Canadian permanent resident status (equivalent to the US Green Card, but there is not need to change the conditions, or whatever you guys call it, after 2 years). The rule of thumb is that you should know your wife for at least a year and you have to show that a lot of time was spent together living as a couple.

[jb]

I am not against them. I just said they are not many different from their western counterparts, so why you guys go there?

I hate to belabor the point, but it almost seems you believe folks from Moscow are somehow less "Russian" than someone from the hinterland.  I'm sorry to disappoint, but my Moscow born wife is as Russian as they come.  Just because she was exposed to more than a life on the farm in eastern Siberia makes her more interesting, not less so.  I would go farther and say the Moscovichka has more of the Russian soul than the province girl who has been raised in a place of lower culture.  People should remember that everything "Russian" originates in Moscow.  It is the heart of Russia.

[Misha]

I would go farther and say the Moscovichka has more of the Russian soul than the province girl who has been raised in a place of lower culture.  People should remember that everything "Russian" originates in Moscow.  It is the heart of Russia.

Place of lower culture? That would be comparable to saying that anywhere outside of New York is of lower culture and that everything truly important in the United States happens in New York as it is the heart of America.

[Shadow]

Demre in the same post you mention not to get women that are 'westernized' and then telling that they will not be 'westernized' easy.
I have the same experience as jb, my Moskovicha is as Russian as the come.

Perhaps you confuse 'westernized' with 'desperate'. In that case the advise is even dangerous.
You should look for a woman who is not desperate, who can leave her country only for you, and who can share her life with you with or without wealth.

[jb]

That would be comparable to saying that anywhere outside of New York is of lower culture and that everything truly important in the United States happens in New York as it is the heart of America.

In who's view?  It is my humble opinion that nothing of importance ever happens in NYC.  Or in Washington DC.  Dens of inequity, all of them.   

[Gator]

Desperation can be found everywhere, but less likely in cities that are humming with economic activity, and no place is humming like Moscow.  So much so that I now dislike the city when 5 years ago I found it very interesting.

Sophistication and education levels of Moscow's population, on average, has decreased as more provincial, village, and ethnic people have moved there.   

[smartcat]

I got fallen behind gaubab... Also wanted to compare Moscow to New York. Moscow a multicultural megapolice. Even during former Soviet Union there were a lot of migrants from all around USSR. Georgia, Lithania, Moldova and Ukraine.
It's hard to tell it's a completely true Russian culture, it's more alike Moscow culture, with own "speed of life", own ideas, own fashion...which does not decrease its special value.
In 1980s, by statistic, where were 45% of habitants with University education.
But, as it goes to traditions and finding "pure" Russian place, Moscow is not a first choice. It's just Moscow.

[Misha]

Desperation can be found everywhere, but less likely in cities that are humming with economic activity, and no place is humming like Moscow.  So much so that I now dislike the city when 5 years ago I found it very interesting.

Sophistication and education levels of Moscow's population, on average, has decreased as more provincial, village, and ethnic people have moved there.   

What provincial and village people can't be educated? There are some wonderful educational opportunities in the regional cities. Being a native Muscovite is certainly no guarantee that they will be educated and I knew many educated people from the regions that were leagues ahead of most Muscovites in terms of education and general culture. The "ethnic people" can also be highly educated even before they arrive in Moscow.

[Lily]

It seems I was misunderstood. Please read it carefully guys:

I am not against them. I just said they are not many different from their western counterparts, so why you guys go there? They are westernized? American women are already western. They speak english? Well, Half of American women can speak english as well!!! They are beautiful? There are many beautiful women in USA... They are rather career-oriented? So what about American women? In brief, I just said: IF YOU GO TO RUSSIA TO FIND SOULMATE, YOU SHOULD LOOK FOR SOMEONE DIFFERENT. OTHERWISE, YOU DON'T NEED TO GO THERE.
 

Exactly. RW are different from AW, and this is why RW are of interest for WM. You are right that one could find a beautiful, fine, educated and goal-oriented woman in the U.S. as well, albeit probably in lesser quantities and in less than pleasant combination of those qualities represented in one person.

The main difference is a woman's attitude to men. This is what makes RW desirable. We treat men like men, not like some sort of lower creatures. We make you feel like a man. RW tend to stand by their men. They rely on them, they like them to take charge, and would not challenge leadership on the family. Combined with quality education, soft-featured Slavic appearance and family values, that would make RW a recognized worldwide brand in females. Well, exceptions and BS happen, but I think that the best of us still deliver the things I listed.

Knowledge of English and some international experience would only facilitate adjustment, and are therefore rather desirable qualities, as people said here.

[Gator]

Gabaub,

What provincial and village people can't be educated?

Never said that.  Our beloved Lily is proof of that, and sophisticated too.

I knew many educated people from the regions that were leagues ahead of most Muscovites in terms of education and general culture.

Never seen that.  Yes, every city has its opera house, and opera aficionados can be found there.  I went to one such performance and the locals loved and understood opera.  However, are many of them leagues ahead of most Muscovites? 

And there is much more to sophistication than knowing opera.  For example, having an international perspective is important too, and it is difficult to gain such without frequent contact with the outside world as happens when working for international companies.  My list could continue.

Let us take Lily (and I hope I do not get into trouble) who came to Moscow from a provincial city.  She is educated, and in Moscow she is making some decent money, gaining international exposure through her employer, enhancing her English, and participating in vintner's club and the like.  Now how many of her hometown peers do the same?

Gaubaub, it is apparent that you are an intelligent man, and for sure your woman did not fall off a turnip truck.  As an exception that I am close to, my ex-fiancee from the Urals is not highly educated yet is very sophisticated, refined and elegant.   She could handle herslf with aplomb among Europe's finest.   But I am not talking about exceptions.  Please notice that I wrote, "Sophistication and education levels of Moscow's population, on average, has decreased..."

BTW, Moscow has famous serial killers and a number of other lowlifes.

[Photo Guy]

jb wrote: ...People should remember that everything "Russian" originates in Moscow.  It is the heart of Russia...

LOL. And remember the migration of culture from south of Russia,
Kiev, the Cossacks, etc.  Cultures gradually change, move, shrink, and expand.
...but, you already know that. 

[Christian]

Desperation can be found everywhere, but less likely in cities that are humming with economic activity, and no place is humming like Moscow.  So much so that I now dislike the city when 5 years ago I found it very interesting.

Sophistication and education levels of Moscow's population, on average, has decreased as more provincial, village, and ethnic people have moved there.   

Your sentiments are representative of the course of any city - ancient or modern.  But what bothers me is your understanding of what constitutes 'sophistication.'  Doubtless more than native inhabitants of this capital city frequent the halls of MSU.

Let's let Robert Browning test our perspectives and weight our values, but let us not confine them to the Cloister habits, shall we, but to us.

"Soliloquy of the Spanish Cloister"
Complete Text

Gr-r-r — there go, my heart's abhorrence!
   Water your damned flower-pots, do!
If hate killed men, Brother Lawrence,
   God's blood, would not mine kill you!
What? your myrtle-bush wants trimming?
   Oh, that rose has prior claims —
Needs its leaden vase filled brimming?
   Hell dry you up with its flames!
At the meal we sit together;
   Salve tibi! I must hear
Wise talk of the kind of weather,
   Sort of season, time of year:
Not a plenteous cork-crop: scarcely
   Dare we hope oak-galls, I doubt;
What's the Latin name for "parsley?"
   What's the Greek name for Swine's Snout?
Whew! We'll have our platter burnished,
   Laid with care on our own shelf!
With a fire-new spoon we're furnished,
   And a goblet for ourself,
Rinsed like something sacrificial
   Ere 'tis fit to touch our chaps —
Marked with L. for our initial!
   (He-he! There his lily snaps!)
Saint, forsooth! While brown Dolores
   Squats outside the Convent bank
With Sanchicha, telling stories,
   Steeping tresses in the tank,
Blue-black, lustrous, thick like horsehairs,
   — Can't I see his dead eye glow,
Bright as 'twere a Barbary corsair's?
   (That is, if he'd let it show!)
When he finishes refection,
   Knife and fork he never lays
Cross-wise, to my recollection,
   As do I, in Jesu's praise.
I the Trinity illustrate,
   Drinking watered orange-pulp —
In three sips the Arian frustrate;
   While he drains his at one gulp.
Oh, those melons? If he's able
   We're to have a feast! so nice!
One goes to the Abbot's table,
   All of us get each a slice.
How go on your flowers? None double?
   Not one fruit-sort can you spy?
Strange! — And I, too, at such trouble,
   Keep them close-nipped on the sly!
There's a great text in Galatians,
   Once you trip on it, entails
Twenty-nine distinct damnations,
   One sure, if another fails:
If I trip him just a-dying,
   Sure of heaven as sure as can be,
Spin him round and send him flying
   Off to hell, a Manichee?
Or, my scrofulous French novel
   On grey paper with blunt type!
Simply glance at it, you grovel
   Hand and foot in Belial's gripe:
If I double down its pages
   At the woeful sixteenth print,
When he gathers his greengages,
   Ope a sieve and slip it in 't?
Or, there's Satan! — one might venture
   Pledge one's soul to him, yet leave
Such a flaw in the indenture
   As he'd miss till, past retrieve,
Blasted lay that rose-acacia
   We're so proud of! Hy, Zy, Hine ...
"St, there's Vespers! Plena gratiâ
   Ave, Virgo! Gr-r-r — you swine!


Cheers,

Christian

[Misha]

Gabaub,
 

Never said that.  Our beloved Lily is proof of that, and sophisticated too.

 

Never seen that.  Yes, every city has its opera house, and opera aficionados can be found there.  I went to one such performance and the locals loved and understood opera.  However, are many of them leagues ahead of most Muscovites? 

And there is much more to sophistication than knowing opera.  For example, having an international perspective is important too, and it is difficult to gain such without frequent contact with the outside world as happens when working for international companies.  My list could continue.

Let us take Lily (and I hope I do not get into trouble) who came to Moscow from a provincial city.  She is educated, and in Moscow she is making some decent money, gaining international exposure through her employer, enhancing her English, and participating in vintner's club and the like.  Now how many of her hometown peers do the same?

Gaubaub, it is apparent that you are an intelligent man, and for sure your woman did not fall off a turnip truck.  As an exception that I am close to, my ex-fiancee from the Urals is not highly educated yet is very sophisticated, refined and elegant.   She could handle herslf with aplomb among Europe's finest.   But I am not talking about exceptions.  Please notice that I wrote, "Sophistication and education levels of Moscow's population, on average, has decreased..."

BTW, Moscow has famous serial killers and a number of other lowlifes.

Reply to first comment: you did not say it directly, but you implied it quite strongly.

As for the leagues ahead, my comment was pretty straightforward: a highly educated person in a regional city will be leagues ahead in terms of culture and education than the majority of Muscovites. And by majority I include all the inhabitants of Moscow, including those that were born there. And, by the majority, I do not mean the small, highly educated elite that actually goes to the opera and the ballet on a regular basis.

As for the opera, many other cities in Russia have opera as well as the ballet. Many regional cities have excellent theaters and concerts. And many people in the regional cities will enjoy the opera. Will the majority of the people in the regional cities and the villages enjoy the opera? No. Will the majority of Muscovites enjoy the opera? God no!

To assume that people in Moscow are somehow more educated and cultured is simply wrong, and this is as true now as it was 5 or 10 years ago. Yes, Muscovites have access to some opera and some theater productions that other citizens of Russia do not (unless they travel to Moscow), but it is still a minority of the native Muscovites that will go see these productions. The majority will watch Dom-2 and whatever is playing on TV for culture, as the rest of Russia.

[Gator]

Gabaub,

you did not say it directly, but you implied it quite strongly.

No, you inferred it quite strongly. 

To assume that people in Moscow are somehow more educated and cultured is simply wrong, and this is as true now as it was 5 or 10 years ago.

Gabaub, do you realize that over half the people in Moscow were not born there?  And that population has perhaps doubled in the past 5 to 10 years (not sure, and I am not researching it, but please do).  With this came some changes.

more educated and cultured

I did say education, but I did not stress culture other than it is a part, a small part, of being sophisticated.  "Sophistication" is about being worldly wise.

Jeez, I don't want to get into another bickering match.   My comments were focused towards Demre's advice to avoid Moscow.  Unlike Demre, I am not saying to avoid the provinces.   There are many fine women in the provinces.  I was engaged to one.  You are married to one.  There are also many fine women in Moscow.

I feel like I have just been hit by a pulling guard.

[I/O]

What a gentlemanly display of bickering. Oh well, enter the uncouth prick. Who can honestly argue against education and exposure to the arts, etc bringing a degree of worldliness and IMO some degree of worldliness is the key to whether or not a Russian woman will have a difficult or simple transition to the west.

It would be very interesting to know the breakup of numbers of divorces where the Russian/FSU woman has originated or arrived from a long spell in the bigger cities vs the smaller back blocks situations, And given that many of the drivers for that divorce are based in the adaption. I suspect it would be almost a given that the villages would appear in high percentages.

I know from extensive travel over RECENT years that Moscow, St P and Kiev DO NOT have the absolute mortgage on cultural advancement and or sophistication that they once had. Things have changed quite a deal in some of the provincial cities. They've changed a deal even in the few years I have been observing.

Nevertheless, Moscow remains the "Hub". Simply take a look at the overall rail map of the FSU and it's a no brainer. Everything leads to Moscow and it still runs on Moscow time in all of Russia. It has been said about Russia, there is Moscow and there is everywhere else. Not as true as it once was, but still a great deal of validity in the statement. What you will find in the provincial cities which are doing very well and I cite my wife's home town as an example because I was rather taken aback when I first visited, the powers that be in these cities will be very well connected with the powers that be in Moscow. It is that simple. Not connected, no inward cash flow.

Frankly, I think guys seeking should focus far less on where the lady comes from and focus far more on 1) There own ability/sophistication and 2) The quality of the lady. One should always aim for the highest possible level.

FWIW

I/O

[Curious_George]

No. I my opinion, she is too young for you. You are already facing an uphill battle by marrying/looking to marry a woman from a cuffent culture. The 17-years age difference may only aggravate this situation.

[wxman]

I have not been to Moscow, but have noticed a big change over the years in Kiev. I think it is losing it's identity in a hurry as it tries so hard to convince everyone that it is a "western" city and no longer a "Soviet" city. All the new buildings being built are all looking the same with no longer a flare of old Kiev architecture. Not to mention all the billboards and neon lights. Throw in all those lousy casinos, malls and mega marts and you quickly see Kiev is losing it's soul. Westerners who now arrive in Kiev may find it initially "attractive", but after a few trips realize it is no longer a unique city, but just another city pumped up on American and western European steroids.

[jb]

I think an entire point has been lost here in some people's haste to defend the ladies of the smaller towns.   I've never said there weren't good and decent, smart and educated, good looking women, etc., in the provincial cities.  What I take exception to is the gross dismissal of women from Moscow and St Pete, as though they were somehow unworthy of consideration.  I think that's wrong.  If you guys think that women from Timbuktu are better than Moscovichkas, I'll tell you that you are wrong.  If you are not man enough to court and win a girl from Moscow, that you must pursue a more desperate woman, that's fine...  Just don't blame your inadequacies on a Moscow woman, that's lame.

[Patrick]

Hello Demre,
   My name is Patrick. I have been around these boards for a few years and have never been angry with a poster until today. I read with interest your post on page 4. I thought at first that I misread something that you said, so I looked at it again. It said the same the 2nd and 3rd time that I saw it. Where sir are you from ?
   I am a American man married with children to a Ukrainian woman. I, like jb, Gator and others have traveled all over the world and been in many countries. Some I have liked and others I have not liked. I  have never sir said not to look in a country for a wife. Is my wife not good enough because she is from Ukraine ? Do all the men here who have wives from Ukraine have to read this ?
   I have friends who I talk with often. We were talking the other day about some of the things written on the board being degrading for our wives to see or read. If you said in front of me what you said in the post, you or I would take an ass whipping.
    You have a Russian wife. Great , I am happy for you and wish you all the happiness that life has to offer you and your family.
    I have a Ukrainian wife. We are happy and have a great life and family. She is a loving woman, wife and mother.
   I am through guys. This is just too much. I have never in all my time on the board read anything so off the wall and just racist. This kind of talk just makes my heart hurt.
   Thanks for you time. Patrick