Opinions please

[wxman]

It is sad that we are at the point where we are now labelling women from other countries and determining whether or not they are "good" enough for us. Perhaps it should be the other way around. Are WE "good" enough for them? Makes me start to wonder why any woman would want to pursue a WM.

[KenC]

Patrick,
Even though the title of that section read:
DO NOT GO TO UKRAINE IN ORDER TO FIND YOUR WIFE:

The first line in the follow up also read:
Of course, there are good people and bad people in every nation

His whole premise in the section is that desperate people take desperate actions and that with the financial difficulties Ukraine is experiencing, there are a lot of desperate women there.  It isn't that Ukrainians are inferior, just in a bind financially so they may be more inclined to scam or gold dig.
KenC

[Misha]

I think an entire point has been lost here in some people's haste to defend the ladies of the smaller towns.   I've never said there weren't good and decent, smart and educated, good looking women, etc., in the provincial cities.  What I take exception to is the gross dismissal of women from Moscow and St Pete, as though they were somehow unworthy of consideration.  I think that's wrong.  If you guys think that women from Timbuktu are better than Moscovichkas, I'll tell you that you are wrong.  If you are not man enough to court and win a girl from Moscow, that you must pursue a more desperate woman, that's fine...  Just don't blame your inadequacies on a Moscow woman, that's lame.

I agree with you in part. Yes, there are some great women in Moscow (and some less than great ones) and this is also true for the rest of Russia. However, one must not fall into the other extreme of assuming that every young woman from a village or smaller city is desperate. Some actually like their lives in their villages. It is too simplistic to say in my opinion that women living outside of Moscow are desperate and those living in Moscow are not. Likewise, it is false to say that women living in the regions are less westernized. Yes, a woman from a village may know how to milk a cow and cut hay, but she still watches television and is as westernized as a Muscovite and a Muscovite is as traditional as most women in the villages in my opinion.

Why did I not pursue a Moscow woman? Well, I personally don't like Moscow. The constant travel on a subway tires me and I do not like crowds of people, too much noise, etc.... I prefer smaller Russian cities where I can walk everywhere. So, I found a wife from a city that I actually enjoy visiting in Moscow. Yes, Moscow is a hub, but I am happy just to fly in and go straight to the railway station. If I have some time, I will go look for books at the Dom Knigi and walk down the Old Arbat.

I could easily have found a wife in Moscow. There is a woman that was actively pursuing me and if I had put enough time and effort, I could have found someone without too much problem. However, it made more sense for me to find someone who lived in a place that I liked, a place that I would be happy to visit in the future.

[demre514]

Patrick,
Even though the title of that section read:
DO NOT GO TO UKRAINE IN ORDER TO FIND YOUR WIFE:

The first line in the follow up also read:
Of course, there are good people and bad people in every nation

His whole premise in the section is that desperate people take desperate actions and that with the financial difficulties Ukraine is experiencing, there are a lot of desperate women there.  It isn't that Ukrainians are inferior, just in a bind financially so they may be more inclined to scam or gold dig.
KenC

Thanks Ken... Finally someone understood what I wanted to say... Probably, my english gives people wrong impressions... I will try to clarify....

ABOUT UKRAINE:

Patrick, please read carefully again what I think about agency women.... You may agree or disagree with, but it is what I think. I hope you don't consider this perspective as racist... It seems you use this term very easily. Simply, I can't find an argument which justifies that a woman tries to find a man abroad where she has never been there. Besides, she will have communication problems, cultural differences, homesick, etc.. Is it that easy to leave one's country, friends, family, habits, work? They do it because there is a few good local men while western men know how to behave women well??? Sorry, but I don't buy it, so IN MY OPINION, they are usually desperate women. Probably, we both agree that the rate of desperate women increase if the economical situation worsen... It is NOT about Ukraine or Russia, but a general rule. Now, look at internet dating sites... Why do you think there are more registered agency women in Ukraine than in Russia? I NEVER think that the reason is inferiority of Ukranians, but the economical situation. I hope it is clear now... If you would feel better, I will re-edit my phrase:

DON'T GO TO UKRAINE UNTIL THEIR ECONOMY GETS BETTER!

BTW, There is another thing about Ukraine... They try to erase Soviet identity and emphasise their own Ukranian identity. However, they are now getting Americanized instead.

**************

ABOUT MUSCOVITES:

Actually, I already clarified that I am not against them. I just think that they are not very different from Americans (actually from Europeans). Anyway, why some people consider all rest of Russia (except St.Pete and Moscow) rural area? Novosibirsk, Omsk, Volgograd, Perm, Ekaterinburg are just normal Russian cities, and women, living these areas usually don't know how to milk a cow! Why I advised these cities? Because I believe that family values are still appreciated in these places. Yes, I know that there are Muscovites who appreciate these values, too but I speak in general. They are USUALLY less materialistic than Muscovites... I didn't advise him going to a small village with the population of 500....

[Jumper]

KenC said
 

His whole premise in the section is that desperate people take desperate actions and that with the financial difficulties Ukraine is experiencing, there are a lot of desperate women there.  It isn't that Ukrainians are inferior, just in a bind financially so they may be more inclined to scam or gold dig

 Ken,
I agree it wasn't demeres intent to offend anyone,
and I also think that what i quoted from you , is  what Demre was saying,
and his whole premise,
but i can't say i agree with it.

Here are the reasons:

 He already takes St pete and Moscow ,out of the search as well,
 this leave Russia's provincial cities.

Russia's provincial cities , on a whole, certainly do not out strip Ukraine cities in any way shape or form, and in fact economically are the ame level or lower.
Ukraine has much improved ,and much closer to being in sync with the EU,
the average salaries  in cities like Kharkov ,lyiv,Simferopol, Dnepro or certainly Kiev,
are equal or in cases above the cities like Tver, Volgograd , Kursk, Perm ,Sochi ?

If basing a westerns mans selection of where to look,
 on "possible desparation"
I have traveled fairly extensively in my life, Ukranian cities would not be the spot,
and certainly not below the Russian cities left ,when you take out st pete and moscow..?

so to me it's  simply an odd premise he has,
or a not very *up to date* one?
or maybe it is just painted with a very broad brush?
as Ukraines largest cities are far closer to a Prague ,Warsaw,  Budepest,or bucherest level, than the more provincial Russian cities, or at th every least equal to?
Certainly the number of english speakers is higher in the larger Ukranian cities.

While i realize Lungunsk or such Ukrainian scammer havens, will undoubtable be brought up in any debate on this topic....
lately there are a few Russian cities that are more active in such activities....
things are shifting,, and rapidly.
The *why* that is occuring ,should be a bit *telling* ?

While Moscow is booming, i dont think that can be said for the provinces.

and in Kiev, Kharkov,  and Dnepro things are certainly moving right  along..
all the people i know there, thier lives have changes dramatically in the last 5 years..
cars ,houses, salaries all far better.

I cant say the same for people i know in Kursk for exampler ,if anything times are tougher than before,or stagnant.

maybe not true in Tver for examle? i wouldnt know, but its awfully close to Moscow and may reap some of that economic growth..


Anyway i do agree with many of his points.

I don't with several other points.

While i understand looking in provincial cities, and there is certainly some merit to that,
i think its very individual choice?
Avoiding Moscow and St Pete would seem silly to me, as well as avoiding Kiev.
but then i felt a more westernized woman would be a better fit, and adapt more easily.

I think Lilys explaination of why RW (eastern european) are more interesting ,at least to  me , is the best way i have seen it described,
and yes the larger city RW are a closer match to for me, even though i might not be a better match for them. (being  a barbarian myself LOL)

 Since many of us here are indeed married to Ukrainians..
this debate is always interesting..
i will say the very last thing my wife was, is desparate,and most of the women i met
had good jobs and a decent salary,were well established, good english,
and  at this point in time would now be raised to a very good salary.

This is not just some defense mechanism because my wife is from Ukraine..lol
its that i cant possibly imagine the percentage of 'desperate" UW in a city like Dnepro
( or certainly Kiev)  to be any higher as that of Kursk, or Perm ,etc etc..


Honestly while i realize there are desperate people anywhere,
i really dont think there is a high percentage anywhere in the FSU,
also , if a guy can't sense that part out in a woman he is interested in ,
 he shouldn't venture abroad for romance anyway?

so it seems bad info to me.

I would think Lily is a good example of why a man should not avoid Moscow, nor a smaller city like Samara?  

[Misha]

Novosibirsk, Omsk, Volgograd, Perm, Ekaterinburg are just normal Russian cities, and women, living these areas usually don't know how to milk a cow! Why I advised these cities? Because I believe that family values are still appreciated in these places. Yes, I know that there are Muscovites who appreciate these values, too but I speak in general. They are USUALLY less materialistic than Muscovites... I didn't advise him going to a small village with the population of 500....

Well I have been to Perm and to Ekaterinburg and a number of other cities in Russia, including Moscow and St. Petersburg. I have also been to small villages of 500 people in Russia where people do milk cows (as well as goats). One of the first dates with my wife was my dragging her to such a village to hoe potatoes at a friend's house in a village. I proposed on the bus back to the city and she said yes.

Given this experience spread over a decade, I don't agree that Moscovites have the monopoly on materialism. Just to define the term, I cite dictionary.com's definition: "a person who is markedly more concerned with material things than with spiritual, intellectual, or cultural values." What I have found is that most Russians fit this definition. Only a small proportion would be interested purely in spiritual, intellectual or cultural values.

The question is the opportunities for acquiring material goods. In Moscow, there is more cash and people have higher salaries and many can buy more things. However, that does not mean that the woman in the village or the other cities of Russia is any less materialistic. She may have less money, but she is just as likely to be concerned with material things and would be quite happy to have more money to buy more things. This is also true of most of Russia. Instead of a Mercedes a "middle-class" family in Perm may buy the Russian-made car, but that is still materialism, a concern for material things.

Other than my trips to Russian Orthodox monasteries and a handful of individuals who were truly obsessed with the intellectual and the spiritual, the majority of Russians were materialistic as are the majority of Canadians by the way.

[Jumper]

demre said

DON'T GO TO UKRAINE UNTIL THEIR ECONOMY GETS BETTER!

I guess i'll just say we will have to agree to disagee

Because it has gotten tenfold better in the last 5 years it seems to me..
In Ukraines cities i see malls going up everywhere, traffic at a standstill for all the new Mercedes ,BMers ,and SUV's, Flats gaining value at a very western and  alarming rate..
New and huge houses going up.

While struggling some, compared to the west ,,
 I see a much MUCH healthier economy in Kiev,Kharkov  and Dnepropetrovsk, than in a provincial Russian city.
(and you took out the cultural and spritual hub of the country and it's other greatly infuential city  St pete.)

not that cars are really the tell all.but its a quick reference?

Kurskaya oblast  (Kursk)
 federal okrug: Central  
 economic region: Central-Chernozemny  
 area: 29.8 th.sq.km.  
 population: 1 347 th.p.  
 index of car numbers: 46  

 Tverskaya oblast (Tver)
 federal okrug: Central  
 economic region: Central  
 area: 84.1 th.sq.km.  
 population: 1 651 th.p.  
 index of car numbers: 69  


 You are welcome to look up Dnepro, Kharkov regions and similar populations?
 the automotive index will be  significantly higher,
(and i am leaving out Kiev ,which would topple those numbers)

a note on this topic-
from a  website discussing traffic issues-
Ukraine's relative affluence in recent years has led not only to expansion of public transport but much wider ownership of private vehicles. In fact, for the growing legions of young professionals, the evidence of financial and social success is usually measured by the ability to purchase an automobile.

I'm not certain  you would see the same written about the provincial russian cities,
 
So to me relative economies in this scenerio..is a strange premise to measure *desperation* by, or to avoid an entire  country by!

Yoska ola ? vs Kiev?
Perm?  Kursk? or Tver?  vs Kharkov ,or Dnepropetrovsk?

additionally I would say a true village in either country , is so similar to be of no difference.


I do see your  shear numbers of Ukrainian marriage agencies point..

but it wasnt so long ago Czech had many..!!
now there are virtually none ,and far less than Russia..
but noone is advising go there,,wouldnt that be even less desperate than provincial Russian cities? where is the line in the sand drawn?
 

I do agree with much of what you are saying..
just not on the economies.

On the agency women.
O nth epositive side,  at the very least, they are indeed looking to relocate,and lookibng to marry.
It is a fundemental step,or two,  that many of the women you advise to contact/date will not have made.

I do agree there are negatives and positives..
of  women signed up with agencies..
..
but you present only the positives of looking for women that have not considered a foriegn man for marriage.
They are very good positives, and i dont advise against it.. !! (its not a bad idea at all)
but there are also some very large hurdles,not to be completely overlooked?


also Welcome!
 

 

[Lily]

I think you guys should not avoid Moscow because of two reasons.

First, it is the city that is most populated and most visited by Russians. In theory, the more people live in, the bigger your pool to choose from.   

Second, Moscow is just convenient. Moscow is a major transportation point in Russia. If you target for Omsk, why not have a cup of coffee or a short hello meeting in SVO 1 or 2 with a few Moskvitchka's that you met online, before going to explore the deep Russia?

[demre514]

AJ, I don't know current economical situation in Ukraine. When I was there just after orange revolution, situation was very bad. As to Russia, macroeconomical datas show that Putin did good work although economical growth is also based on increased demand of petrol (or oil? gasoline? how to say this in english???) worldwide. So, if it is better now, I don't insist. However, I want to ask one thing:
I explained already why I consider agency women as desperate. May be you don't agree with me, but you know my arguments, what makes me think like that. Now I am asking everyone who don't agree: What are your arguments? If the reason is not economical, why do you think they register to an agency to find foreign men abroad?
 

[Misha]

I can't answer. I did not meet my wife through an agency and did not know any women in Russia who were signed up with an agency.

[Gator]

Demere,

Perhaps you may make your point clearer by listing the materialistic Western ways which you abhor and which are also shunned by your woman.   Some of us may be very contented with Western ways.

I am happy that you found your soulmate.  Your particular soul requires someone from the provinces, unadulterated by Western materialism.  My soul requires someone who is so sophisticated as to appreciate the finer things of life (including fashionable clothing) and to enjoy certain Western ways (but not all Western ways).  

All of us are different.  That is why Baskin and Robbins has 45 flavors.  Just because you are happy with your woman does not mean that the rest of us would be happy if we followed your path.  

[Gator]

Demere,

I neglected to answer your question.

If the reason is not economical, why do you think they register to an agency to find foreign men abroad?

The answer is simple to me.  Economics is part but certainly not all of their decision to  seek a better life (don't we all).

The women are expanding their dating pool, and are sophisticated enough to not be xenophobic.  If a woman were happy with a Russian bloke, she would not register.  An agency gives her the opportunity to meet foreign men.  What happens after meeting is more than a monetary decision.  The days are over of a woman marrying the first Westerner who shows up and spends a few days with her.   

[Misha]

And not only Western men as many women in Moscow marry men from Turkey as well. According to the Moscow Times: "Moscow's women appear to exercise a special attraction on German men, as they topped the list of foreign nationals taking local brides in the capital last year. There were 147 marriages registered between Russian women and German men in 2006. In second place were men from Turkey, with 140 marriages registered, followed by men from the United States (119), Britain (95), Israel (86) and France (60), Interfax reported Friday." http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2008/01/21/019.html. Unfortunately, this article did not have stats for the country as a whole.

[Serebro]

If you target for Omsk, why not have a cup of coffee or a short hello meeting in SVO 1 or 2 with a few Moskvitchka's that you met online, before going to explore the deep Russia?

Impossible.
Moskchichkas are too intelligent, self-respectful and mature to spend $100(if they use a taxi) on the trip to and from the airport to have a cup of coffee with the man who is heading to Omsk to meet someone else

[Lily]

Impossible.
Moskchichkas are too intelligent, self-respectful and mature to spend $100(if they use a taxi) on the trip to and from the airport to have a cup of coffee with the man who is heading to Omsk to meet someone else

I am in Moscow myself, by the way. 
Well, we probably could not say 'impossible' about this option. There are many women in Moscow who may have different opinions about this speedy way of making acquaintance. On the costs, that would be a metro ride about approx 20 rubles plus a bus ride of about 50 rubles or less in one direction, in case she does not drive a car.

[Serebro]

I am in Moscow myself, by the way. 
Well, we probably could not say 'impossible' about this option. There are many women in Moscow who may have different opinions about this speedy way of making acquaintance. On the costs, that would be a metro ride about approx 20 rubles plus a bus ride of about 50 rubles or less in one direction, in case she does not drive a car.

well, I could meet someone as a FRIEND, maybe I would even go to another town/city to meet him/her knowing that my American friend is going to meet his gf who lives somewhere else.

 But to run somewhere knowing I will be number 1-5 in his tour around Russia, that's not for me and not for most girls/women that I know.That's just a complete lack of respect towards myself, I'd better stay single forever.

[Gator]

It is implausible if not idiotic for someone to travel to Russia and not spend a day or two in Moscow.  Once can feel the historic soul of Russia by walking the Red Square, gazing at St. Basil's, and touring the Kremlin.  And with some prior planning, you can do this in the company of a lovely and interesting RW.

[Misha]

It is implausible if not idiotic for someone to travel to Russia and not spend a day or two in Moscow.  Once can feel the historic soul of Russia by walking the Red Square, gazing at St. Basil's, and touring the Kremlin.  And with some prior planning, you can do this in the company of a lovely and interesting RW.

Yes, on the first trip going to see all these things is a must. However, after you have been to Russia many, many times, the last thing you want to do is go see Red Square and St. Basil's again for the umpteenth time.

[Gator]

I love your enthusiasm.

[Misha]

I love your enthusiasm.

It's called visiting a country often enough that you are no longer a tourist. Would somebody that has been to New York a few dozen times go and see the Statue of Liberty each and every time? I doubt it.

[phantom]

I'll be starting my trip in Moscow this year when I go to Russia and I'm looking quite forward to it.  I'll also be seeing St. Petersburg.  As this will be my first trip to the FSU, I plan on enjoying the sites and myself.  I'm not going to wait five or ten years to be excellent in Russian.  I do speak a little Russian and the first lady I'm going to meet, speaks some English.  Then with the aid of an eletronic translator, it should be fine. 

[Ronnie]

Rick,
I read your original question but not much after that except your last post.  You asked about the age difference between yourself and a 24 year old RW.  I went to your myspace page and see that you are still a young 41 yo.  41 is young anyway but your tastes and sense of humor will certainly make any age gap with a 24 yo nearly indiscernable.  I hope you don't read this in a negative light, it's all good.
I always shudder a bit when I hear about an AMm going to FSU for the first time.  So many mistakes will inevitably happen.  I will relate a short story that my help you set your mind into a good frame:

After sending my first K-1 back home, I was in Costco and overheard a couple speaking Russian with a Ukrainian accent.  I introduced myself (in Russian) and asked them where they were from..They told me, "Kyiv" and asked me where I was from.  I said, "here".  "Of course, but where were you raised?"  I explained I learned to speak Russian by traveling and by being engaged to a Ukrainian but that we decided recently not to marry (well I decided). 
To this the woman responded, "you know they are all artists don't you?"  "Artists?" I queried with a puzzled look on my face.  "Actresses, they're all actresses!"  I told her I understood that there were many who were insincere but I believed i could yet find a sincere one.
   I have to tell you, Rick (and anyone else who is going to the FSU for the fist time) the Ukrainian lady was firm in her opinion of her own society and her comment was given out of concern for my well-being.

I am now married 4 years to a UW that I knew for more than a year before proposing.  I must confess that even though I "dated" close to two dozen others and deemed this lady to be the most sincere, I now understand that her primary motivation was to improve her economic circumstances and provide better opportunity for her son.  She was smart enough to never ask me for money or help of any kind (unlike the others) though she also was in dire straits.  Apparently many have been counseled how to act.  Bottom line, my wife was also an "artist" as were all the others.  We've been through some rough patches (loud arguments) but oddly we seem to come out of them a little stronger, or perhaps with a little more appreciation for each other. 
My conclusion is that Women of the FSU are not as emotionally developed as western women.  Their notion of romantic love (which 900 years ago scarcely existed on earth) is not yet clear to them.  They know what it's supposed to be and they want it as much as we do, but their instinct for survival and protection of their young is overriding.

What I'm saying is this, the biggest mistake I made in my search was to try to seek out a RW who was only interested in me as a person and had no ulterior motives (material concerns).   That was an unworkable proposition in that environment.

Being an "artist" shouldn't in itself disqualify her..  it doesn't necessarily denote dishonesty of the destructive sort.  Don't focus on the impropability of love at first sight.   Better to look for a woman with a good heart (does she criticize beggars or give them a few kopecks?), a sense of humor (it will get you through the tough times),  a hard worker, be it domestic or outside the home and a love for children and animals.  If you are a good person, your relationship will grow closer and a kind of love will emerge that may not be what you are expecting or conceived of in the beginning.   She is also judging you on your ability to be a provider and strong leader of a family..a resolute decision maker.  If you see her judging you on any other basis, you might consider moving on.

[KenC]

Ronnie,
Interesting post.  May I ask how thing are now between you and your "artistic" wife?  (Feel free to tell me it is none of my damn business! )  Do you think she loves you now?  Do you love her? Do you feel secure in your marriage?

My conclusion is that Women of the FSU are not as emotionally developed as western women.

I found your statement very interesting.  I do not know if it is "emotional development" or not but it seems to me many RW have a picture painted in their minds as how marriage should be and then fill in the blank with the best man available to them at the time.  It is as though their plan is more important than the players.
KenC

[Gator]

I think it is important for men undertaking this endeavor to memorize three of Ronnie's statements: 

...the biggest mistake I made in my search was to try to seek out a RW who was only interested in me as a person and had no ulterior motives (material concerns).  That was an unworkable proposition in that environment.

She is also judging you on your ability to be a provider and strong leader of a family..a resolute decision maker. 

a kind of love will emerge that may not be what you are expecting or conceived of in the beginning.

Ronnie, perfect summary.

I am not married but have known my soon-to-be-wife for 5 1/2 years.  Your writing these three statements is like reading my mind, my exact experience.

[ScottinCrimea]

I just looked over this thread after being away for awhile and found some interesting points.  First, I think Ronnie is spot on.  But I also think that those who don't truly understand FSUW will misinterpret the meaning behind his words.

Demre,   I haven't spent much time traveling in Russia, so I won't offer an opinion on what you have written, but many of your comments on Ukraine show that either you haven't spent much time there or that you haven't visited recently.  You admit your last trip was around the orange revolution.  In Ukrainian terms, that was ages ago.  I suggest that you follow my example and avoid expressing opinions or offering advice about an area that you don't have significant or recent experience with.  Now I'm not just defending Ukraine because my wife is from there or because I have spent significant time actually living there.  Some of what you wrote is correct, but you paint with such a broad brush that it's difficult for anyone not to be offended.