LANGUAGE !

[Misha]

Quite old meaning how old? And what has everyday accepted usage having to do with "the same television" (which is not true, BTW - even not far from St.Petersburg, say 2-3 hrs by car, there are palces with no reliable TV transmission and only a channel or two.

Let's see, roughly 1,500 km to the north of Moscow and couple thousand kilometers away from Russia. You could reliable get: 2 or 3 television channels. You can get what, six channels, in Moscow and Petersburg in you don't have cable. Huge difference  The fact of the matter is that your average Muscovite and St. Pete resident will watch the same television shows as the villager, listening to the same programs, and hearing the same standard Russian for better or for worse. Even reindeer herders will pack with them a portable television that they will watch when they are in range of a television transmitter.

And I still do not get your premise how the TV and school system would have influenced the way the people addressed each other. And as to this being mostly the older people - I agree, because the younger tend to flee to the city as soon as possible. But people 40+ still tend to address each other like this.

In the villages that I have visited, some people in there 40's and 50's will still use it, but more in a playful fashion with friends or close acquaintances. If they are meeting a higher status individual that is not an acquaintance they will use the typical имя и отечество greeting. You will have to find a бабушка in her 80s who will use only the old village standards.

[Wienerin]

Let's see, roughly 1,500 km to the north of Moscow and couple thousand kilometers away from Russia. You could reliable get: 2 or 3 television channels.

Sorry, my geography fails me. What do you mean, - Finland? And again, either you have a relay or not. One can get a satellite dish, I suppose - if one has enough money, but my former daughter-in-law lives in a small ham let near Pechory - a convent not far from Pskov. She has a TV set, but gets only 1-2 channels (it depends and the quality is very bad, so mostly she doesn't bother. Nobody has any money for a satellite dish. Phone line is more or less OK, thank G-d, so she gets her 2-3 hours on the internet.

The fact of the matter is that your average Muscovite and St. Pete resident will watch the same television shows as the villager, listening to the same programs, and hearing the same standard Russian for better or for worse. Even reindeer herders will pack with them a portable television that they will watch when they are in range of a television transmitter.

What stumps me is your idea that people will pick everyday usage from TV as opposite to their whole life experience in their environment. Almost 60 years of TV in Russia and much more of radio didn't make much indentation with some common glaring mistakes - I still encounter them with younger and educated people of Piter, Moscow, etc. on Russian boards.

So why if for generations and with huge public outcry people can't learn from radio and TV not to say "лOжить" as opposite to "класть" или "положИть"(faux pas equivalent to city blacks' "aks" instead of "ask"), or stop addressing strangers as "женщина" или "мужчина" (woman" or "man") - then all of a sudden they stop addressing their friends and neighbors as Potapovna or Mikhaylovich? There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this form of address. It's just "village talk" as opposite to "city talk"? and they live in the village, don't they?

In the villages that I have visited, some people in there 40's and 50's will still use it, but more in a playful fashion with friends or close acquaintances. If they are meeting a higher status individual that is not an acquaintance they will use the typical имя и отечество greeting. You will have to find a бабушка in her 80s who will use only the old village standards.

You are saying nothing grossly different from what I've said. More than that - I confirm (if I've forgot to mention this before) - that it's a casual form of address, for the family, friends and neighbors.

Nobody - even a 80 y.o. granny not in her dotage will call the teacher Petrovna, or the head of the village councel Dmitrich (unless they came from this village, are sons-daughters-nephews etc of somebody in the village, grew up with half of the village, etc. - then this form of address from their elders becomes a sign of acceptance and respect too. Much better, than calling them Tan'ka or Vit'ka - who were stealing green apples from my orchard... How the time flies! ) A very much respected elder in the village could still be called Ivanych or Kuzmich - it's again a sign of respect.

Once again, this is not rude, not impolite or whatever "bad". Just the usage of a certain social environment, which for a city-dweller points out you origins from a somewhat backward culture. Well, not backward, but not up-to-date either. Different world, different life, different tradition. If one comes from that background and if one consciously wishes to stand apart and to underline this apartness- one may continue this "country" usage. If one wants to blend in with a different society, - one'll usually try to do something about this and other things too.

I've know Shukshin - one of our best writers about village life and the clash of urban and rural civilizations. His stories are not only near to impossible to translate - he uses so many regional words and expressions, but even sometimes difficult to read for many from the mainstream Russian language culture. When he visited his native village (which he left at 14 - returning only twice, for 2 years, and then as a teacher for 1.5 yrs... with 2 short visits until his death) he spoke their language, used their forms of address, etc. When he taught Russian - he gave standard lessons on Russian poets and writers (he wasn't a great success as a teacher ), in his writing he also talked - or his personages talked as they still do in his native parts. But in Moscow and St.Petersburg he talked as his friends and colleagues did - and never called anyone as Petrovna or Timofeevich

[OlgaH]

After the assurance that modern business ethics (or any sort of common usage) allows the address "Gospozha" without the last name or title - I withdraw from this discussion also

Wienerin, the modern business ethics doesn't allow to use such forms of address as gospozha and gospodin without the last name or title, or position. The modern business ethics says that "gospozha" and "gospodin" can not be used independently, but only with a last name or title, or position.

http://www.aup.ru/books/m96/13.htm
Во-первых, в форме единственного числа обращение «господин» не употребляется самостоятельно, а только с фамилией, званием или должностью: Господин Онучин, господин губернатор, господин председатель, господин профессор.

[Misha]

Sorry, my geography fails me. What do you mean, - Finland? And again, either you have a relay or not.

No, Northwest Russia. Yes, and I have yet to come across a Russian village that did not have a relay. I have been in villages with several hundred people to the north of the Arctic Circle and they had at the very minimum ОРТ.

What stumps me is your idea that people will pick everyday usage from TV as opposite to their whole life experience in their environment.

Quite simple, linguistically, television and school are both important social factors that work to flatten dialectical differences. I see this quite easily in distant Russian villages: the older generation in their sixties and older, for example, pronounced all the "o" sounds as "o" (mo-lo-ko versus ma-la-ko), while all the younger generations followed the standard pronunciation.  

Almost 60 years of TV in Russia and much more of radio didn't make much indentation with some common glaring mistakes - I still encounter them with younger and educated people of Piter, Moscow, etc. on Russian boards.

You are referring to WRITTEN language which is a different beast than the spoken word.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this form of address. It's just "village talk" as opposite to "city talk"?

Well, the problem is when one is labeled "cultured" and the other "uncultured." This is ethnocentrism as its best or should I say urbanocentrism  
 

You are saying nothing grossly different from what I've said. More than that - I confirm (if I've forgot to mention this before) - that it's a casual form of address, for the family, friends and neighbors.

Well, such differences exist as well in the city. It is a common phenomena called diglossia: most individuals will have different registers of speech depending on the social context. It is not solely a city versus rural thing, though the elites in the cities tend to define the "high" registers and high dialects of speech.

Once again, this is not rude, not impolite or whatever "bad". Just the usage of a certain social environment, which for a city-dweller points out you origins from a somewhat backward culture. Well, not backward, but not up-to-date either.

Well, what is up-to-date? No villager lives as they did a century ago, and the same is true for the city-dwellers. We learn and maintain the knowledge that is essential for our lives.

[OlgaH]

People 45-60 or more years old quite often didn't get even that much schooling - there simply not being any. And until the 70s young people often not allowed to go to high school in a regional center or not able to. Simply not getting their passports from the local government. To keep people in the kolkhoz. That's why when young men were conscripted to the army service, mostly they didn't return.

Wienerin, I would like to recommend you to read some historical book, you will discover many interesting things.

For beginning you even can start with a history of a school in village Kudashi that was founded in 1897 and even during the soviet time it was not closed.
http://shkola.kudashi.ru/content/view/52/8/
Sovkhoz Prikamsky in Tatarstan was founded in 1928. A school opened in the beginning of 1930.
http://www.e-nizhnekamsk.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=423&Itemid=288

In 1923 the Soviet Government started to open so called the schools of peasant young people, and along with general school subjects the young village people were studying the basic agriculture.  In 1930 the schools of peasant young people were renamed into schools of kolkhoz young people. http://bse.sci-lib.com/article124090.html

The most talented students after a village school graduation received the special letters of recommendation and referral to continue their education in high institutions.

The situations and conditions in the Soviet kolhozes were varied from region to region.

People 45 y.o. , that you have mentioned, were born in 1964, 10 years after totalitarian regime.

For example:

If in the year 1961 the kolkhoz built a building with 4 classrooms, in 1966 they started to build a school with 3 stories for 640 pupils, a cantina was built. This year a public bathroom was built, a combinat for social service is being built and there is a project to build a culture house with 600 places.
http://www.ciutulesti.md/geoeconomie1_en.htm

[SANDRO43]

Quite simple, linguistically, television and school are both important social factors that work to flatten dialectical differences.

Very true, we experienced this in Italy as far as TV is concerned.

Italian TV broadcasting started in 1954 with one black-and-white channel and was an instant success, particularly with a Thursday-night quiz show on the same lines as the US $64,000 Question (an absolute novelty for us). TV sets were VERY expensive then and bars started installing them, and also cinemas: on Thursdays, their film show would stop promptly at 21:00 and the TV sets in lateral aisles would be turned on for the whole duration of the quiz show. Throngs guaranteed in both venues .

TV announcers then had to attend a diction course which stressed a Florentine-type of pronunciation (after all, Italian descends from there). Over time, this influenced Italians (particularly in the lower social classes) to gradually cease speaking only dialect at home, and rely more and more on a 'standard' form of Italian.

As regards schools, we always had substantial numbers of Southern Italians (from Naples, Sicily, Calabria, Puglie, etc.) in the ranks of our teachers (low-paid but secure state job), and fortunately THEIR Italian did not have much influence on us, probably because their accent clashed with ours and was therefore considered 'funny', to say the least.

The funniest situation would be having a Southern teacher of French, absolutely incapable of pronouncing correctly the French nasals: for instance, une would invariably come out of their mouths as yun . 

[Misha]

As regards schools, we always had substantial numbers of Southern Italians (from Naples, Sicily, Calabria, Puglie, etc.) in the ranks of our teachers (low-paid but secure state job), and fortunately THEIR Italian did not have much influence on us, probably because their accent clashed with ours and was therefore considered 'funny', to say the least.

Perhaps, but they were using standardized textbooks. I doubt they were teaching the grammar and vocabulary common to their region.

Another linguistic bulldozer is the army. When you mix soldiers form different regions in the army for long periods of time, you quite often get the most prestigious dialect (usually that of the officers) being adopted by the troops. In research done on the letters written by the French soldiers in the trenches in WWI, you quite often see them writing back home in their local dialect at the start of the war and writing in standard French by the end of the war.

[SANDRO43]

The most talented students after a village school graduation received the special letters of recommendation and referral to continue their education in high institutions.

Actually continuing a pre-revolutionary tradition (which also included some financing) among enlightened noble landowners at least, according to what my grandmother told me about her family - they had also converted a hunting lodge in their Voronezh lands to a convalescent home for their peasants' sons returning wounded from the WWI frontlines, which she and her sister would visit daily and tend their lesser wounds.

One can view this as paternalism (nobles considering themselves the 'fathers' of their peasant community), or as far-sighted capitalism: returning graduate students would both enhance the 'skill pool' of the community, and its loyalty . 

[SANDRO43]

Perhaps, but they were using standardized textbooks. I doubt they were teaching the grammar and vocabulary common to their region.

Of course not, I was referring to their phonetics.

[SANDRO43]

My saviour! (blowing a huge kiss ) If you stop by some day, you're due not only a nice dinner but 2-3 dozen contemporary views of ol St.Petersburg, too.

Thanks Lena, I'd love to, I'm sure we might have some interesting conversations. But where could that happen, geographically-wise, and what would the Boatswain say (not really sure about his role, wouldn't want to be massaged with a rope's end or keel-hauled ) .

[Wienerin]

Thanks Lena, I'd love to, I'm sure we might have some interesting conversations. But where could that happen, geographically-wise, and what would the Boatswain say (not really sure about his role, wouldn't want to be massaged with a rope's end or keel-hauled ) .

The Boatswain (Боцман) is my significant other - my are together for 17 years now. The nickname came from his sailing career - he is sailin since he were 9. And if you visit us between May and October we promise some nice sailing too He is much more learned and talented than I am, especially in linguistics and history. So the conversations should be good (and he speaks French and Italian too, also some Polish and something else )

 

[OlgaH]

Olga, I have to use SOME definition to differentiate the usage.

Sandro, I really think the definitions are very simple and we don't need to complicate them  As I already said it is better to remember just basic rules of the addressing ethics.

As I remember we already discussed when to use formal vy (Вы) and  informal ty (ты), and the knowledge of using Vy and ty will be helpful only to people who know and can speak Russian  . You just should remember - first: always use Vy addressing to a stranger; second: you can use ty only towards people who let you use this informal form of address.

Additional: A Reference Grammar of Russian By Alan Timberlake
Second-person pronounce and address
http://books.google.com/books?id=-VFNWqXxRoMC&pg=PA227&lpg=PA227&dq=form+of+address+in+Russia+Vy+Ty&source=web&ots=DJMLhiY-gY&sig=GAPcrAshU0ZRkJfH4Hx1CY6qoEs&hl=en&ei=VryPSeSDDpW6twfNxtWNCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA227,M1

When you should use just a name and when a name with patronymic?

It is also very simple, just remember one main rule 

It depends how a person was introduced or how he introduced himself. If a person was introduced as Alexander you can address to him just using his name, if a person was introduced as Alexander Petrovich you should address to him using his name Alexander with patronymic Petrovich. If a person was introduced as Alexander Petrovich Korovin (name+patronymic+last name), you don't need to use his full name addressing to him, but only name+patronymic.

Impersonal addressing to the strangers.

As I already wrote such forms address as sudar', sudarynya and baryshnya to a strangers went out of use after the Red Revolution, now after the fall of USSR a such form of address as tovarisch (comrade) also is out of place. Some Russians use "zhenschina" (woman), muzhchina (man), devushka (young woman) as forms of address, but according to the ethics the such forms of address are inappropriate.
So you have to choices: to help to restore to life the old good Russian traditions  and use sudar' (to a man) and sudarynya (to a woman) - for example: Sudarynya, excuse me please (isvinite pozhaluista), how do I get to the nearest book store? or if you are not sure about restoring the old traditions, you just can drop the form of address "sudarynya " and start you addressing with "excuse me please..."

Such form of address as gospodin and gospozha in modern Russia are used only in very official and formal situations. I think it should be next "chapter" - business ethics    

[SANDRO43]

And if you visit us between May and October we promise some nice sailing too

That'd be grand, I haven't done any sailing in the past 10 years or so, and your partner is intriguing, too . In what area do you usually sail in that period of the year?

[SANDRO43]

~ HERALDRY ~

Since the question of Russian forms of address is not finally settled yet, and I've dropped a couple of blazons (including a heavy ) in this thread, I thought a few words explaining this peculiar area of 'technical English' might not be amiss.

Heraldry developed quickly and simultaneously in Western Europe around the XIIth century, as a technical solution to an urgent technical problem: how could the Herald identify quickly who was inside those two tin cans on chargers at the opposite, far ends of the tournament field, and therefore announce them properly with their full titles and names (no patronymic required, one less worry ) before they'd launch themselves at each other in full tilt?

Initially, they had tried having knights wear coloured woollen surcoats over their armour (hence the term Coat of arms, or more simply Arms), but contemporary dyers did not have that many colours to go around with, so someone (a daltonic Herald, maybe ?) hit upon the idea of requiring them to paint something easily recognisable from a distance on their SHIELDS.

As I said, the blazon is the description in words of the Coat of arms or Armorial achievement (graphic).

To illustrate the process of how a blazon is drawn up - and how its terminology may be mistifying to laymen - I wrote a short tragedy relating how Lord Hubert Fukemall, the old and irritable 12th Earl of Badliverhampton, set about recovering his lost blazon, which he needed to include in the paperwork for entering his prize sow in the Jubilee Noble Swine Exhibition (with thanks to P.G. Wodehouse for several inspirations/imitations).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A CHOLERIC KNIGHT IN DISTRESS
A heraldic tragedy in one phone call


Act I, Scene I

Lord Hubert Fukemall asks his butler to call 'that blasted school of trumpeting fools in London who muck about these damn things', the meaning of which the latter is eventually able to interpret correctly, thanks to his long and thankless years of service in the Fukemall household.

Butler: "You call to the Heralds' College, M'Lord."
Lord Hubert: "Hrrumph, hullo."
Heralds' College: "Good morning, Your Lordship, how may we help you?"
Lord Hubert: "I need my bloody blazer redone."
Heralds' College: "I beg Your Lordship's pardon?"
Lord Hubert: "You know, that silly verbiage that goes with my thing. Lost, damn it."
Heralds' College: "Oh I see Sir, your blazon. One moment, I'll connect you to one of our Heralds."
Lord Hubert: "Yes, but tell him to lay off the damn trumpet, I can't stand blaring noises."
Heralds' College: "Fear not, Lord Fukemall, we have long discarded trumpets as efficient means of communications. Hold on, please."

Act I, Scene II

Herald: "Good morning, Lord Fukemall, I understand you want your blazon rewritten by us."
Lord Hubert: "Yes, need it for my sow. Can't enter her in the Jubilee Exhibition without it."
Herald: "Er, we usually provide blazons on parchment scrolls. Would that be satisfactory?"
Lord Hubert: "How should I know? I'm not FEEDING it to the sow, blast you!"
Herald: "Sorry Your Lordship, my confusion. Can you send us a photo of your arms?"
Lord Hubert: "What for? I have few tattoos from my Royal Navy service on them, is that a heraldric thingy, too?"
Herald: "Your Lordship, I mean a photo of your coat of arms to work from for your blazon."
Lord Hubert: "Oh, that. No, don't have time for stupid photos. How much is that blazer thing going to cost me, by the way?"
Herald: "Our standard retainer for blazons is 100 guineas, Lord Fukemall."
Lord Hubert: "Damn thieves, 100 guineas for a few odd words, you need golden trumpets now? Alright, I need it quickly, so be it, proceed."
Herald: "Can you describe to me your coat of arms over the phone, Lord Fukemall?"
Lord Hubert: "Yes, it's so simple a child could draw it, a red lion on yellow. 100 guineas, forsooth."
Herald: "Very well, so the field is...Or..."
Lord Hubert: "Or what? A field is a field. Are you playing word games?"
Herald: "Or is our blazon term for yellow, Lord Fukemall. And the device on your field is..."
Lord Hubert: "Could be a plough for all I know, can't see much out of the French windows from my chair. Never cared much about agriculture anyway, I'm more into pig breeding."
Herald: "I mean you said a lion is depicted on your arms, Sir."
Lord Hubert: "No lion tattoos. Saucier than that is what I have, heh, heh. You know, those parlours in Far Eastern harbours...I was a tod tipsy that night..."
Herald: "A lion is emblazoned on your shield on a yellow background, correct?"
Lord Hubert: "Looks more embalmed, to me."
Herald: "Is it couchant?"
Lord Hubert: "How could I know if it had dirty habits? It's centuries old, do I have to summon some clairvoyant to question its extinct pastimes?"
Herald: "Lord Fukemall, I didn't say cochon, I meant its posture: is it squatting on its haunches?"
Lord Hubert: "Yes, it is. All that trumpet blaring must have impaired your eardrums, I told you it looked embalmed, the blasted animal."
Herald: "I'm afraid that 'embalmed' is not an accepted heraldic term, Sir. Is it regardant?"
Lord Hubert: "There you go again speaking in riddles, damn your tongue!"
Herald: "Is the lion's head pointing straight ahead, or is it turned towards the viewer?"
Lord Hubert: "It looks at me, the bloody beast that's going to cost me 100 guineas."
Herald: "Any other distinctive tinctures on the lion?"
Lord Hubert: "Can't see any iodine splashed over it, looks embalmed I said, not sick or wounded."
Herald: "I meant, are there any other colours on the lion? Its mane, fangs, claws, tail, anything NOT red?"
Lord Hubert: "Now that you mention it, it looks as if it had its hair peroxidised at a hairdresser's. Don't tell me I have a faggot lion on my whatever!"
Herald: "No, Lord Fukemall, an argent mane it's not uncommon. Any other charges?"
Lord Hubert: "Why do you bring up the 100 guineas now? Have we finished?"
Herald: "Sorry, Your Lordship, argent stands for white, and charges for symbols. Is the lion in the center of your shield?"
Lord Hubert: "Where else? Look, how much longer will this nonsense last?"
Herald: "We're quite finished now, Lord Fukemall. We shall send you your blazon by registered post, but if you are in a hurry and want to take notes, it is:

Or, a lion fess couchant et regardant, gules, its mane argent proper

Lord Hubert: "That all? 100 guineas for twelve funny words?"
Herald: "Based on what you told me, yes, Your Lordship."
Lord Hubert: "Hrrumph, damn trumpeting thieves."
And slams the receiver down.

THE END

[Wienerin]

That'd be grand, I haven't done any sailing in the past 10 years or so, and your partner is intriguing, too . In what area do you usually sail in that period of the year?

We are "landlocked" - with the Great Lakes, but still... So we sail on Lake Michigan. But when we are on vacation somewhere near the sea, we rent a sailboat usually and try the local waters.

[SANDRO43]

Tamara's approach (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9131.msg171803#msg171803) to teaching Russian vowel pronounciation with the support of English spelling (like teaching someone to drive on a car with 3 flat tyres, IMHO ), started me thinking in more general terms about the whole process of learning a foreign language.

Based both on my personal experiences and my linguistic studies, I'd say it's both a 'rational' and 'irrational' process:

- Mostly rational: grammar, syntax, lexicon (vocabulary).
- Mostly irrational: phonetics (pronounciation), cadence (rhythm).

Learning the 'rules' of a foreign language is mostly a rational process at the beginning, all the more so when the foreign language is not much related to your own -  it's easier for an English speaker to learn German or Dutch than, say, Italian/French/Spanish/Portuguese - or Russian.

Over time, once the basics have become more or less firmly implanted, the abilities of our brain for pattern recognition and association may allow us to pick up the finer points of usage directly from prolonged exposure to the new linguistic world: I've said before that switching from one language to another is IMO more like switching radio/TV channels, you're suddenly exposed to an entirely different 'program' .

On the other hand, learning to reproduce foreign phonetics is mostly irrational in the sense that, first of all, you have to hear those different sounds before you can attempt to mimic them. In this connection, a 'musical ear' is a distinct advantage: my ear is moderately musical, and I could always produce quickly a decent accent in any of the foreign languages I studied, including some 'weird' ones like Arabic and Japanese. I also suspect that using the right 'rhythm' may make a few phonemic errors much less noticeable to native ears.

I'm reminded of what my former choirmaster used to say: "Singing off key is not a matter of faulty voice control, it's due to a faulty/untrained ear."

Fluency comes MUCH later, after I've digested the boring part of grammar/syntax and picked up a workable set of words .

[Tamara]

Tamara's approach (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9131.msg171803#msg171803) to teaching Russian vowel pronounciation with the support of English spelling (like teaching someone to drive on a car with 3 flat tyres, IMHO ), started me thinking in more general terms about the whole process of learning a foreign language.

Sandro, I went back to my post and found out something got messed up.  I probably typed one sentence, but then started editing it.  So the message might be not as clear as I wanted it to be.   

I was responding to comments on learning English. I do not teach Russian vowel pronunciation with the support of English spelling.  I only write phonetic guidance before my students learn Russian Alphabet, which is only the first couple classes.  When I was writing the post, I talked about teaching and studying English, not Russian.

As always, I read your post with interest.   

[Tamara]

Sandro, I went back to my post and found out something got messed up.  I probably typed one sentence, but then started editing it.  So the message might be not as clear as I wanted it to be.   

I was responding to comments on learning English. I do not teach Russian vowel pronunciation with the support of English spelling.  I only write phonetic guidance before my students learn Russian Alphabet, which is the first couple classes.  When I was writing the post, I talked about teaching and studying English, not Russian.

As always, I read your post with interest.   

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, I went back to my post and found out something got messed up.  I probably typed one sentence, but then started editing it. So the message might be not as clear as I wanted it to be. I was responding to comments on learning English. I do not teach Russian vowel pronunciation with the support of English spelling. I only write phonetic guidance before my students learn Russian Alphabet, which is only the first couple classes. When I was writing the post, I talked about teaching and studying English, not Russian.

My mistake in misreading your post then, sorry.

I wonder if you noticed music-sensitive/trained individuals among your students picking up acceptable Russian sounds well before the others? Do you inquire about existing musical experiences?

[Tamara]

My mistake in misreading your post then, sorry.

I wonder if you noticed music-sensitive/trained individuals among your students picking up acceptable Russian sounds well before the others? Do you inquire about existing musical experiences?

Sandro, no problem!  I actually have one outstanding student who is a professional opera singer.  He even flew to perform in Bolshoi Theater back in Soviet Times.  My husband also has musical training and picks up sounds and words very easily.  I do not usually inquire about existing musical experience, but I notice that these individuals pick up pronunciation faster than others.  What's your experience, Sandro?  You know a few languages, right?  Are you music-sensitive/trained?   

[SANDRO43]

What's your experience, Sandro? You know a few languages, right? Are you music-sensitive/trained?

I'm music-sensitive but not formally trained, except for whatever I may have picked up by self-teaching/interest along the way, and over the past 10 years (rather late in life ) with my choir singing.

I think I remarked somewhere in this thread that neurophysiology recognises that there are several types of 'brains', i.e. natural aptitudes/talents for instance for mathematics, music, languages, drawing, etc. etc.

Both music and language are mainly left-hemisphere activities, which may account for their close relationship: they both have a lot to do with sound one way or the other, after all . 

[JR]

Had I thought that diphthongs could be such lady-killers, I would have used them MUCH earlier

I just KNEW women loved thongs! Especially when their thongs are dipped in chocolate.

[JR]

I think I remarked somewhere in this thread that neurophysiology recognises that there are several types of 'brains', i.e. natural aptitudes/talents for instance for mathematics, music, languages, drawing, etc. etc.

According to the Gregorc model there are four different ways of learning:
Concrete Sequential
Abstract Sequential
Abstract Random
Concrete Random

I test as a very strong Concrete Random learning style.

Frequently when someone is having difficulty grasping a concept it isn't a matter of wether or not they are smart enough to learn it. Rather it boils down to how they are being taught.

[SANDRO43]

According to the Gregorg model there are four different ways of learning:
Concrete Sequential
Abstract Sequential
Abstract Random
Concrete Random

Sorry, never heard of the fellow, nor apparently does Google . Sure you have the name right ?

I test as a very strong Concrete Random learning style.

Is that good or bad ?

Frequently when someone is having difficulty grasping a concept it isn't a matter of wether or not they are smart enough to learn it. Rather it boils down to how they are being taught.

Having spent the last 15 of my 30 years with IBM as an instructor, I quite agree with you there. I found out soon enough that whenever some of my 'students' stared at me with vacant eyes, I was probably 'broadcasting on a different wavelength', and should adjust my 'tune' to their ears .

[JR]

Sorry, never heard of the fellow, nor apparently does Google . Sure you have the name right ?Is that good or bad ? Having spent the last 15 of my 30 years with IBM as an instructor, I quite agree with you there. I found out soon enough that whenever some of my 'students' stared at me with vacant eyes, I was probably 'broadcasting on a different wavelength', and should adjust my 'tune' to their ears .

I had a "g" where there was supposed to be a "c"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Gregorc