The train came off the tracks

[BillyB]

And yes she is a user , emotional vampire money waster person there are such women , and unlike DKMM I am living in Russia all of my life I know such women exist and noway somebody like DKMM will change them , that is their motto in life to live as selfishly as possbile and to take everything from life by the cost of somebody's happiness and so on.

Usually when people first meet their internet friends in real life, they are cordial to them and their lady/man friends but you Jazzy must have seen something in DKMM's fiancee to say such harsh words. I suspect she spent DKMM's money like there was no tomorrow.

Of course DKMM knows his situation more than anyone here but most always, when someone writes about their problems at the forums, there is more to the story than their telling and it's usually worse instead of better. When there is possible chance they will be subject to embarrassment, people have a tendency to withhold the full story.

All I can say to DKMM is that your young woman has been divorced once and as statistics show, those who been divorced once has on average a 70% chance to divorce again. If this woman spends your money wastefully for selfish reasons as Jazzy implied, you can be sure she's going to grab all she can in a divorce and her attorney will help her dig for gold. As I understand it DKMM, your finances are entangled with your family's and if you divorce, it can get messy and stressful not only for you but for your family members as well since they may have to prove what is theirs is, instead of yours.

I know your fiancee is using sweet words at the moment to reconcile but her actions, more than once, have said something sour. If you are not 100% sure of this woman, cancel the visa and tell her you need more time to get to know her or that you need to move on. A lot of men here have had hard, messy, and expensive divorces after ignoring the warning signs. You don't have to follow our footsteps.

[I/O]

Jazzy,
If you and I keep agreeing, people will begin to think we like each other!
KenC

do not worry

The trouble with you two is that you are TOO MUCH alike in some ways, with the key difference being age and experience.  The point being on this particular subject, you are both pretty much spot on IMO and I also note KenC's comment regarding DKMM's diplomacy. True and commendable, but it ain't gunna buy him a happy marriage.

From what I can see, the guy is completely blind to any or all faults of this lady or he is a drama queen who comes here ringing alarm bells prematurely.

I/O

[AnastassiaAsh]

And I think that deep down in his heart DKMM understands and feels that she is not for him but it is so hard to let go, especially when there has been so much put into this relationship. I have been there done that and several times. It is a place of total torture and turmoil. You feel like you want to go to the end no matter what and do everything possible to make it work. But the truth is that the end is inevitable, it is just the matter of time. The sooner - the sooner... or the later - the later... what ever time frame each person would choose...

[DKMM]

Goodness people!  Well if nothing else, it does give you all something to comment on, and for some reason I keep coming back when most people here leave when they don't like what they hear.  Its my fault for bringing up the thread so whoever wants to comment or say whatever, its all good feel free to join in.  I don't take much of RWD too seriously when it comes to my relationship as I've only presented bits and pieces from my sometimes distorted point of view.  But if you all want to continue I can respond to some of what I've read.  As always, comments are welcome and I don't ignore or worry too much about what someone I dont' know says about me and my fiancee.

My reality was distorted when I went into my panic mode thinking everything had fallen apart.  Its very easy to get suspicious of what you don't understand and to not take the signs clearly when dealing with a foreign relationship.   Her lack of making me her priority in life was a recent thing, and while I complained about it loudly there wasn't a whole lot she was doing wrong.  It sure felt like she was no longer in love at the time so what people were initially saying made a lot of sense.

I will say it one more time, we both were not realizing what we were getting into when we got engaged.  That rush to get the visa going pushed us down the path to this situation.   I'm taking the blame because I pushed the marriage thing before I myself was ready for it.  I wanted to insist she was ready before I was and that is rather immature now that I think about it.

Its really hard to get into the nuances of my relationship, but either you feel it will work or you don't.  I had a couple weeks there where I felt it was not going to, culminating in the fight and post-fight end of engagement.  Why I came on here, at the time for me it was over and I was ready to share my "mistakes".  In reality I was just blowing off steam.

1st regarding Ken and Jazzy. Ken keeps getting the facts wrong, which is led by his blind insistence that things must be done his way or else the person will not succeed.  Basing his arguments on false premise is when I start to gloss over his posts.  Its not personal Ken, I understand where you come from and why you have your views.  Self made men often think their way was the best and why not?  it worked for you afterall.  If I could go back in time, the student visa is absolutely what I would have done.  Jazzy I think has some other reasons not to like my girl, but I don't want to speculate because I do consider Jazzy to be well meaning and a friend.  She doesn't know her anymore than I know Ken however, the "meeting" had little substance.  It was also on day 2 of my knowing E in person and E was still quite nervous.  Both of you speculate a lot, for instance that I just want to get married to any RW or that I can't accept failure of this relationship.  Baloney, I am 30 and good looking (Jazzy you can vouch for that hehe).  Ask Rvrwind if he thinks I think I can't find another girl. 

I/O, your advice I actually used.  when she talked again about her being unsure she could handle living here I told her yes it will be difficult but I cannot do everything so if you don't think you can do this, stay in Russia and we should end this.  It worked.

Groov, I told her all the problems I saw in our relationship, and that I don't accept that behavior from her at all.  In reality she is clamboring back for me as she took the blame for 1) not paying enough attention to me and 2) not acting correctly in response to my complaints.  Her reasons were given as 1) not being certain she wants to come here and 2) the stress of being apart with no motion on our visa at all. 

Now she is back to wanting to get married and also does not want me to move to Moscow as she will wait to come to me here (because she loves me).  I told her fine but we should live together here first for a couple months to make sure this works for both of us.  It makes the most sense from a practical standpoint, although not ideal from the being engaged standpoint.

Gabaub, we still have time for more trips and such because the K1 will take till March at least.  then we have 2 or so months here to try things out.  that is the part I'm talking about when I said what you quoted.  Its obvious she will not get married if it is not going to work for her and same for me.  I'm not going to insist on being ready in order to do the visa, that would be something only someone not sure of themselves to insist upon.

Billy, you are completely wrong on this one.  E spent several days with my brother (who I'm very close to) plus more with my family.  My brother is the pickiest guy in the world and never approved of any girl i ever dated.  On E he said I don't deserve her, she's too good.  On money, she wont even let me take a damn taxi in Bangkok to save a dollar and instead we have to walk through pollution for 20 minutes.  I'm not allowed to take her to a nice restuarant more than once a trip and when she gets here she said at most a few times a year.  I tried to buy her some nice things when we went shopping but she 95% wouldnt allow me too because she always thinks things cost too much.  I'm talking like $20 clothing here!  She made me agree that if we take anymore trips together, I am not allowed to spend more than HALF as much as I did for our Thailand trip altogether.  This girl flat out will not allow me to spend money.  As for "my" assets they are 100% protected.  E offered to sign a prenup but I have little in need of protection and won't marry her if I cannot trust her anyway.  As demonstrated, my threshold for trust is rather demanding so I'm not about to walk into some risky marriage.  I'm too paranoid for that to happen anyway.  Her views on money were one of the things that attracted me to her over other RW in the 1st place.

Nastia, thanks for the words but in fact I'm very relaxed about the whole thing.  All my friends tell me I haven't been this happy in months, which is probably telling.

Scott and Gator nail it as usual.  I've also received PM's from people that dont want to fight some heavyweights around here.  I appreciate all of you who told me to slow down and take a hard look to see why she was acting this way.  If I hadn't stopped to explain myself to her and get her to let her guard down and apologize, things would have probably ended.

But the biggest reason things turned around is her.  She is doing things to show me how important I am to her and how important our future is.  Her mind is set on repairing our relations and a motivated RW is a sight to behold! 

[Gator]

DKMM,

I think readers at RWD will admit that the communication between you and your woman is excellent.  And communication in my opinion is probably the most important factor, other than commitment, in making a relationship work.

You readily admit that you have made some mistakes.  Everyone does.  What is important is to correct those mistakes, learn from them, and improve.  You and your woman seem to be trying to do this rather than argue and defend your mistakes.

I disagree with one of your statements.

KenC…is led by his blind insistence that things must be done his way or else the person will not succeed……Self made men often think their way was the best and why not?

I do not believe KenC thinks his way is the best way.  He knows why Baskins and Robbins has 31 flavors.  KenC has more experience with RW than almost all of us, he is very pragmatic, and he is quick to express his opinion, sometimes strongly because many men have short antennae and would otherwise not perceive it.  If I were deliberating an issue, I for sure would consider KenC’s opinions, yet still do what I feel is best for me.

[I/O]

went into my panic mode thinking everything had fallen apart.

I/O, your advice I actually used.  when she talked again about her being unsure she could handle living here I told her yes it will be difficult but I cannot do everything so if you don't think you can do this, stay in Russia and we should end this.  It worked.

Perhaps something you can take on board from all of this is to be a little less dramatic with the thread title if you come seeking opinions in future AND take a good deal more time reflecting the situation before you put fingers tot he keyboard. We read what we read and comment on what is commented on. That is the nature of the RWD beast.

IMO you were right to throw down the ultimatum because there is actually no risk in doing so. She stays in Russia, you have a clear answer, she has a think and stays on board, you have an answer. Either way you move forward.

I have some serious concerns based on what I have previously read regarding your relationship and I think you should at very least be taking a fairly hard line with integrity issues.

KenC is big enough and ugly enough to speak for himself, but I strongly disagree with your comment of him pushing for "his way or no way". I have never seen him go that route yet in any of his posts I have read here. What have have seen him push very strongly is "Smart way or no way". I also express concern that you are again eluding to what we see all too often, "You don't know her or you don't know me" when the answer doesn't fit the taste buds too well. You are now saying that even Jazz who has met your woman hasn't any idea because your woman was nervous. FFS, stop making excuses for her. If you don't want her pulled to bits, don't talk about her.

for some reason I keep coming back when most people here leave when they don't like what they hear. 

That, good man, puts you a class above the average in this pursuit. You are smart enough to cop it sweet and at least listen a little. Can I leave you with something my father said to me years and years ago when I was dating in my late teenage years and obviously had someone who was not quite to the standards he thought I should be setting, and BTW it was and is to this day, the only advice he ever gave me regarding women, "Son, don't ever sell yourself short". Think about it.

I/O

[Jazzyclassy]

DKMMochka darling, which other reasons I have to not like her?  I have no reasons at all not to like her, I would like her so much if she was sincere woman, what I saw in her I did not like so it has nothing to do with something you think of 

I agree with BillyB, I/O and Ken C,

I do understand Gator as he is probably communicating with you and does not want to hurt your feelings

But better to know the truth now then later

She is not the woman who will regret about her actions, she will cruelly scam you and say see you honey when you will have account in swiss bank next time or something. And the thing is that you will dragg after her no matter what

I know , I 've experienced such kinda men and I would honestly walk million miles far away from them , cos such men like DKMM they break the hearts of women who are  into them , who will truly love them and do anything for them, yet they adore and on their knees in front of Stervas as how Groov told .
Long Long time ago I had such relations when I was a woman in love very young one and the guy was boring jackass but charmer he though kept saying great sweet words and all those seductive things, but the fact is the fact after sometime he told he has another woman and is moving to live with her , I was of course broken torn apart but remained his friend then after sometime he told that this woman left him for another man and he is so broken hearted and came to ask for moral support, so what I 've done I just told to myself that I will never be more than friend to this person as I 've experienced hard way he broke my heart into pieces and still when I see such situations in RWD and in life I just shudder sometimes it still hurts.... cos those scars will probably be always there in my heart. I trusted him and he knew my feelings and he used me , that is what will probably happen to DKMM though in this case he would play a victim role. She knows that he loves her and she will use him without any regrets. It is all kinda circle cos the girl who will be in love with DKMM he wont need her.

So DKMM is some kinda the same as his  girl but he is more spiritual and more sincere , I just tried to show people some comparison

[DKMM]

I'm not trying to make this all personal.  It gets that way on here, and that wasn't my point.  Ken has his methods and that's fine, I can take what anyone has to say for the most part.  I dont always agree and I like it less often than I don't, but I still read what everyone has to say (that's the point of a forum da?).  I chose to make my life public (well anonymous but public) on here and I accept the consequences of that because I also get the unique opportunity to speak about it with people that know what its like.

Sometimes though, this place can make one a bit paranoid in their relationship.  I know its a good idea to not trust any Russians you meet until they prove otherwise but that approach also stifles opportunities.  I can't help but fend off the wild accusations that my girl is a scammer, its not just I don't like what I'm hearing, its what I'm hearing is rubbish.  As far as being a Sterva, yeah I've seen that at times too but I'm sure not going to put up with it.

I/O I came on here a day after our blow up and I was 100% ready to be done with it.  I was devasted and pissed, so the title of my post was the least of my concerns and it was accurate to me at the time.  I thought there was no way to reconcile this until after calming down.  Its hard to go through the courtship process on the internet and phone and missing out on our face to face interaction.

[Turboguy]

Personally DKMM, I think you will earn a lot of respect with your attitude.   I also think that someones attitude goes a long way in creating a positive and helpful response to the situations they find themselves in.

I keep seeing a lot of similarity in your situation and the one I had been in with my former fiancee.   As far as Jazzy's comments, I have seen Jazzy say a few things that I thought were totally wrong and I have seen her make some very wise comments and be very perceptive.   When I was in my relationship with my former fiancee, Luda, Alla, my friend from Moscow met her and Jet's wife had a long phone conversation with her.  Both came away feeling I had a rocky road in front of me.   Both turned out to be accurate and perceptive.  People can see things a lot more objectively when they don't have a stake in the game. 

[Daveman]

If you believe she is only thinking I care for him, and may grown to love him because we have common goals. How do you think things will end up.

Man, does THAT sound familiar... been there... basing everything on the future possibilities... in both directions...

"If I only go over and spend 6 months living in Russia, we'll grow to love each other.. she's a fantastic woman.. I'm a helluva guy.. we want the same things... surely that real love will grow...how could I NOT love her? how could she NOT love me?"  Doesn't quite work that way, does it? 

DKMM, I'm very sorry to hear of your tempestuous relationship.  Only you know the truth and reality of your situation... really... but search your heart and hers.. take a vacation by yourself.. get some clarity to your thoughts.  Do you really want to be in a relationship like this one? Would you want to see your best friend in this relationship? Only you know how good or bad it truly is.

Dave

[BC]

  People can see things a lot more objectively when they don't have a stake in the game. 

Wise words.

This kind of thing happens all the time in the 'real' world where getting 'stood up' on a date is no big deal..  sh!t happens.  Why should it be a big deal here?

Quiz time -  Identify the source of the following quote:

Treat international dating the same as dating someone from your home country. The biggest difference is the cost (travel, phone. etc). This is an expensive process. Don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise.

[Misha]

As far as being a Sterva, yeah I've seen that at times too but I'm sure not going to put up with it.

I don't quite understand this. Do you mean you have seen it with other women or with your girlfriend?

[KenC]

My reality was distorted when I went into my panic mode thinking everything had fallen apart.  Its very easy to get suspicious of what you don't understand and to not take the signs clearly when dealing with a foreign relationship.   Her lack of making me her priority in life was a recent thing, and while I complained about it loudly there wasn't a whole lot she was doing wrong.  It sure felt like she was no longer in love at the time so what people were initially saying made a lot of sense.

I will say it one more time, we both were not realizing what we were getting into when we got engaged.  That rush to get the visa going pushed us down the path to this situation.   I'm taking the blame because I pushed the marriage thing before I myself was ready for it.  I wanted to insist she was ready before I was and that is rather immature now that I think about it.
Why I came on here, at the time for me it was over and I was ready to share my "mistakes".  In reality I was just blowing off steam.

Yeah, you are a bit of a Drama Queen now, aren't you?  This post shows that you are riddled with self doubt and doubts about your girl's sincerity.  Not a real good place to be entering into marriage now is it?

 

Ken keeps getting the facts wrong

Hmmm.  If I have the facts wrong it is because you misrepresented the truth in your posts.

Fact You went to Russia with engagement ring in hand to meet a RW for the first time. This shows that you predetermined to get engaged on your first trip.

Fact You seriously considered passing off a CZ ring to your girl with the thought of "upgrading" to a real diamond later, if she measured up
This shows your burning desire to get engaged (prior to meeting her), but also shows your doubts about her and the relationship.  Also is a very good indicator of your immaturity.

Fact Your fiancee conveniently "forgot" to tell you she was married before and only fessed up when she got caught with the K-1 paperwork.
This shows her propensity to lie to you. 

Fact Both you and your girl have expressed doubts about being ready for marriage recently  This shows that there is some hope that the two of you might still be able to see the reality of your foolishness

Fact Your girl posted a "face book" of photos on the Net recently stating that she was single and available  This shows just how unimportant you are to her in the real world

Fact Both you and your girl have concluded to continue the K-1 and to use the 90 days as a testing period  This shows that even though you both doubt the chances of success you two are willing to tempt fate and continue.

Fact Your girl is "pretty sure" (your words) that it will work  This shows her indecisiveness regarding the potential success and her willingness to just "take a chance."

Fact You have alluded to the women you might have missed out on because of your involvement with your girl and have even projected the ease of finding another should this not work out  That sure doesn't sound like a man head over heels in love now, does it?

Now, which part of this did I get wrong?  If there is a misrepresentation of the truth, it comes directly from you as when you said:

I don't take much of RWD too seriously when it comes to my relationship as I've only presented bits and pieces from my sometimes distorted point of view. 

, which is led by his blind insistence that things must be done his way or else the person will not succeed.

My points with you have never been about the methodology of finding the right woman in Russia.  They have been about truth, lies, maturity levels and the seriousness of you and your girl's actions.  The two of you come off sounding like middle schoolers going steady for the first time, not two people ready for marriage.
Train wreck coming.
KenC
 

[Photo Guy]

DKMM wrote:
'...Its obvious she will not get married if it is not going to work for her and same for me.  I'm not going to insist on being ready in order to do the visa, that would be something only someone not sure of themselves to insist upon.'

I don't understand that last sentence, especially the last part about insisting on
readiness- Are you saying that a couple who insists on a readiness to marry, before
starting the K-1 process, are a couple that are unsure of themselves?  What does that
mean to you? Can you elaborate? It looks like fuzzy logic. I think a couple who decides
not to do a K-1 are simply not ready for marriage and it's totally okay to NOT be
'sure of themselves'. In many cases, a couple's time together is not adequate to
be 'sure of themselves'. That's only natural. If you do not insist on 'readiness' before
starting a K-1, then you have to admit to yourselves that you are playing a high-risk game. (something I know about) Not being 'ready' is the same as 'not being sure' of yourselves. True?  -doug

[DKMM]

Hello all, I will gladly respond to your posts in order.

Turbo, No doubt I see some potential problems ahead.  That is why I'm not sure.  In my mind (and according to E, her mind as well) I don't know what things will be like for us when she is here, as most of my complaints about her are rooted on the time and distance apart.  I'm not about to pretend that all problems will go away upon her POE, but its hard to tell what problems will exist. 

Daveman, E does love me but it has not grown to the level needed for marriage.  After I took some time back last week I realized that my love for her is the same, I love her but not to the point where I would drop everything and move to Russia (at this point anyway).  We just weren't at the level "ready" to get married. 

BC, I agree wholeheartedly.

gaubab, I have seen it in E.  That is really hard to define and explain, but I'm saying that when I've been upset with her, sometimes she will turn around and try to say its my fault.  That's what other girls do too and I haven't caved on the occasion its happened.  Not excusing her behavior, just saying how I feel about it.  On occasion its been my fault too...

ken, yes i have some doubts about us and the girl.  That was what I didn't really come to grips with until after I came on here and someone pointed it out.  Its hard to not have any when you have months and months apart and you are both trying to communicate and at the same time we both get lonely.

Please allow me to correct your facts.  I don't have an agenda here, I just want the truth to be out there.

1. I never went to russia with a ring.  I met E in person in April and purchased the ring in June, I have the receipt in my I129F application to prove it.

2.  I considered the CZ ring because I wasn't sure if it would be a) safe in dominican republic and b) she would be upset if I bought her a real diamond (turned out to be true), c) I wasn't sure if it was normal for Russians since they don't give each other the nice rings until they get married, and d) what if she changed her mind about marrying a foreigner and I lost it with her.

3.  True, she did hide she was divorced.  She told me before I told her we needed it for the K-1.  Its possible she only told me because she thought she might have to but the fact is, she lied about it at first and admitted she wished she could forget she ever was married.

4,5.  True.  She told me specifically she didn't want me on her facebook until she was certain we were getting married because of what all her friends would say about her.  I don't care, she did add me to her friends list on there and anybody that is curious enough can link through her page to mine and see our picture of us together I put up on my page.

6,7.  Yeah, well I'm still debating whether or not to do the K-1 while we have doubts.  But I also don't see the rush to cancel yet.  whether to do a trial K-1 (which she claims everybody does that she met who did a K-1) is another issue I will decide on later, after more time with her.

8.  Yep, well I actually meant one girl in particular and that was J.  She was ready to take E's place and of course at the time I didn't care.  But if things don't work out with E, I will always wonder if I should have given J a shot... and by the way you were the one who told me to not bother going to cancun with J because she wasn't showing me she wanted me. 

Anyways, Ken I appreciate your points and it helped me correct some things, especially about the CZ.  I agree also that its not a good idea to do a trial K-1, but I still need time to gauge things before canceling it (because once that happens there is no going back).

PG,
yes that sentence didn't make much sense.  I was saying to insist on readiness means I'm not sure of myself and need that security of commitment before even being willing to let her come here.  Da, its natural we are not 100% sure of this whole thing.  Are we willing to play this high risk game?  Only if there isn't much to lose and only if I think we have a good chance of it it leading to marriage. 

The fact is, I'm not sure of this whole thing either.  I'm trying to put together a trip to see her in a few weeks so I'll focus on that for now.  the visa is going to take till april now so I'm in no rush at all.

By all means if I'm saying something else that is alarming or stupid don't hold back. I haven't been there/done that so let me hear it. 

[Bruno]

Yeah I know I have options, there is a girl here that are literally calling me as I write this.  Word got out quick.  But I want nothing to do with them, I'm totally sold on the RW if not this girl then another.

a little late in these topic

WHY ? ( bold in the quote )

Everybody say that find the right woman is related to "numbers"... limit yourself to RW exclude milliard of ladies... and maybe the right one is in these excluded ladies...

Before, i was like you... only RW ( FSU ladies ) count... same after the divorce with the first RW, i have continue in these way... without success... the last girl from Ukaine was a very good friend... with her, i have understand that women are women everywhere... some cultural difference exist everywhere but real love is not related to a country...

Now, i am datting local girls... of course, several of these local girls have some Russian root since i go to local Russian church, to local Russian cultural center, etc... and it is so easy to date localy... one month, with several meeting, some time together and you know if the lady is right for you... in international dating, it take month or more for know if you have find the right one...

Seem that for you, RW are like hard drugs, you are like a "slave"... this lead you to take wrong decision for your future... and don't say me that all local women are fat b!tch... long time ago, i have stay in US for almost 6 month and i assure you that your country have some cute sexy not damaged women...

What is the more important... marry a RW or marry the right woman ?

[KenC]

DKMM,
You are going to do whatever it is you decide to do regardless of my and other's opinions.  I know that.  In life there are all kinds of risks we take, but it is best to avoid the foolish risks.  Marriage in of itself, is a risky proposition, but marriage to a woman that isn't 100% in love with you is a foolish risk.

She told me specifically she didn't want me on her facebook until she was certain we were getting married because of what all her friends would say about her.  I don't care, she did add me to her friends list on there and anybody that is curious enough can link through her page to mine and see our picture of us together I put up on my page.

This action that she took is a very good indication of her lack of love for you and lack of commitment to the "engagement" such as it is. What does a woman in love do when they get engaged?  Shout out the news at the top of her lungs for all the world to hear.  Her friends would be the first to know, not the last.  Anyone in love does not try to hide it and usually push their friend's patience to the max talking about their loved one.

Before Lena and I even met, her friends all knew of me.  In fact, they dubbed her "Cinderella" because no matter what she and her friends were doing, she would run out the door for our nightly scheduled phone call.

I have been married twice now.  Once to a woman that loved me maybe 80% for 20 years and again for over 8 years to a woman that was 110% in love with me.  There is no comparason.  Looking back now with 20/20 hindsite, in many ways that 20 years spent with a woman not fully in love with me is a tragic waste of time for me.  I thought that the strength of my love would some how make up for her lack of love.  I was wrong.  It never did.  And I can never recapture the 20 years I lost loving a woman that did not love me back.

Many people here on RWD have said if a RW is in love with you, you will know it.  And it is so true.  It is also true that you will know, as you do know now, when a RW isn't 100% your's.  Don't short change yourself.  If you have any doubts about her feelings or your own, do not proceed into marriage.  I can almost guarantee that you will be sorry for your actions.
KenC

[Gator]

KenC,

Good story and excellent guidelines for DKMM as he continues his journey.

And Jazzy, I am not communicating with DKMM and and I am not trying to cheer him to feeling better.  I am pointing out that not all men can find love with a RW along a straight path without confusion, concerns and doubt.  How many do?  My path was convoluted, not linear.  KenC, you yourself felt strong love but did not marry quickly. 

The key question, if DKMM's woman were in America and they were dating exclusively, would they continue to date, working towards marriage?  I infer that the answer is "Yes".   

Although DKMM is not feeling what he hoped to feel at this stage, he seems to be feeling enough to continue.   The process to marry a RW is not natural because of the legal obstacles and the cross-cultural variables.

[Photo Guy]

I go along with Gator on this one, that they should continue 'dating' and discovering each other. As time goes on, the proper direction will become clearer. The logistics of 'dating' over  a long distance are a real challenge. DKMM, how do you interpret her Face Page thing? Was she trying to make you jealous? Or was she really fishing for a better catch? Or what? It looks like a bright red flag.

[DKMM]

PG,

Its a real pain dating long distance that is for sure.  I'm quite paranoid about things when they seem out of place, but the way they do things over there, lots of things seem out of place!

I've debated the facebook thing a lot.  First of all she told me about her page, so its not like i caught her.  2nd, it appears to be her method of keeping in touch with friends from st. petersburg where she lived until 2003.

What got me though, was when i asked her why she didn't have photos of me or list herself as something other than single.  she came up with multiple BS excuses and this raised the general alarm in the 1st place.  Eventually the truth came out, which coincided with her not being sure she wants to get married.  Then she reiterated that people gossip like crazy behind her back about her being with me so she stopped telling everyone outside of her inner circle about what she is doing with me.  A lot of men in particular tell her awful things and that she will come screaming home after I beat her etc.  So if she thinks she might come back to Russia because we didn't work out, she doesn't want to have to explain to the whole world why. 

I what the hell it doesn't matter to me.  Any RW that wants to cheat on you can easily do so, and this has nothing to do with whether or not she will.  I bet that happened a lot more than many guys know.  I have no reason to believe she's cheating on me and I'm a rather suspicious guy in general.

Ken,
I'm noticing those things too.  Well put.  RW are a different creature and its hard to tell what is just cultural difference and what is a red flag.  Her level of enthusiasm and commitment are not cultural.  I sure as hell don't want to get her over here on a K-1 just to satisfy her curiousity.

[DKMM]

I'm no longer blind to the red flags!

This weekend she disappeared again. I tried calling her on Friday and sent her sms's telling her to let me know when to talk.  on saturday, she sent one telling me she's at a company party all weekend without adddressing my need to speak with her.  i sent another one and one more on sunday.  she knew i needed to talk and it was regarding the visa and also our travel plans (which i'll get to in a moment).

Well she just sent one more on sunday saying she was going to bed early and not giving me a chance to call her.  On monday (that's sunday night here) she came to work and we did our usual chat on msn.  She said sorry she forgot her phone in someone's room and they closed it.  Then she came home and went to sleep. 

Its always an excuse almost every weekend.  I asked her 2 weeks ago why she didn't respond and she claimed her battery died (that happened more than once too).  She said she had no way of contacting me, except that I saw on her odnoklassniki that she was online well after she brushed me off with the "i'll sms you when i charge my phone".  When confronted with this she claimed someone stole her password.  I mean you got to be kidding me.

Ok, travel plans.  She thought it was a great idea to buy a doctor's list (lie) and take sick time to go to Italy on Jan 9-16 on some tour.  I tried to get it off but the boss said no way, too late in the month but i can go earlier if its a few less days.  So, after she told me we could just go to turkey for a few days earlier, I asked her if we could do that.  No, all of a sudden she thinks its a bad idea to lie to work because i'm not taking her to italy I wanted to go to russia.  So I responded ok I will come out during new years.  She got very agitated at this and told me its not long enough (i could be there 5 days) and she won't enjoy it.  She went on to say that we don't get along enough in the first few days and we will just not have a good time at all.   She said "i'll just see you in spring when i get the visa".

I was floored and explained that a couple is supposed to want to spend time together.  I already had other reasons to think she had alternate new years plans because her story about those changed a lot too.  Then i really got upset and told her i'm not going to tolerate these kinds of relations.  She responded with "you'll be ok with it later".  And "you're just upset, it will be ok tomorrow and I understand"  The sterva noticed that eventually i justify her behavior later. 

Nope!  that's enough for me thanks.  I'm pissed that I gave her money for a drivers license and doctor's appointment last week when she was so lovey dovey.  Anyways I got a hold of J, and she agreed to pick up the ring.  E said fine she will give it to her and that was it she wasn't upset at all.  J called her and they agreed to exchange it at lunch tomorrow.  I never heard anything else from E, so its obvious she's over it rather quickly.  I went all night without sleeping but she seems to be doing well.  So I guess in her mind she was just going to do whatever she wanted till the time came anyway.  At least she will give the ring back.  She wants her things back too, I have two suitcases full of her household items.  Maybe when i do my return tour but i'm a long way from ready to look for more girls.

The idea of waiting till she comes on the visa to see if this would work was stupid.

[tim 360]

DKMM,  Glad to read that your "relationship" with E is finally clear to you.  Her words and actions make it crystal clear.  I hope for your sake you don't backtrack and excuse-away her behaviour and again give her the benefit of the doubt.  Good luck, tim360

[KenC]

DKMM,
Sorry for your pain.
KenC

[Simoni]

I'm no longer blind to the red flags!

DKMM, I know it hurts a lot.  Yes, the excuses "I forgot my phone" or "the battery was dead" are big red flags, and typically mean she is with someone else and thus can't talk to you.

Dump her.  She would simply continue to give you pain.

I'm sorry for the pain you have already experienced.

Beautiful RW blind us.   Glad you have your sight back.

~Si

[Gator]

DKMM,

You have my sympathy.

That was the shortest extension in history - what was it, one week from your saying "Let's give it another try."  It is good that the pot boiled over so quickly.

It is a FATAL FLAW - DEAL KILLER if RW don't want to see you when you have time to visit them. It is DOUBLE FATAL when RW don't want to see you on New Year's because of the significance of that holiday.  

All your prior concerns were red flags.  While not fatal IMO, you have to take your hat off to KenC and Jazzy for adding the clues together and telling you to walk.  Now you know for 100% certainty, if that is any solace.

KenC's  main point months ago was that she did not disclose her prior marriage.  He called it a Big Lie.  While her explanation was believable, we now see that the one lie was just the tip of a huge iceberg of deceitful ways.  Good liars are able to come up with plausible explanations, as she did with her prior marriage.  Her current lies are very weak, showing that she really does not care and will lie naturally without hesitation.

While she may now start going with a local (if she was not already partying on the side),  RM are not idiots and he will tire of her troubling ways after a couple of months (more solace for you?).  RM too have plenty of choices and enjoy playing the field.

You gave this your best effort.   And you were smart to confront her about the string of red flags.  I have a feeling that some weak men turn their head to these red flags because they are so much in lust.  You did not.  You will forget all about the pain upon your next erection.

Do you think your discussions at RWD sped or delayed your final decision?  What would you have done without any of this chat?

BTW, you should write a letter to withdraw your K-1 visa petition application before it is reviewed by the service center.

To digress a bit and focus on E's lies.  My Moscow woman has never told me a lie in our 5+ years together (that I know of).  Quite possibly most of the OMBs will say the same, which would be remarkable in contrast with my history with AW.  RW are more blunt, while AW will tell what they call "white lies" to not hurt your feelings.  White lies can grow to dark lies.  All I know is that a good RW will want PRAVDA.