The train came off the tracks

[Leslie]

DKMM

I have not posted on this thread before because I would merely confirm my reputation as a direct, cruel, bastard and you would not have listened anyway.  However the scales have now fallen from your eyes and you will be viewing past events under a different light.  Little things which at the time you passed over will now have striking relevance.  You will be feeling like a chump…

You need a period of reflection and depending on your inclination the opportunity to get drunk with an old friend or two.  You need to come to accept this situation before you do anything about it.  It is time for you to go quiet.  Don’t contact this woman again.  Wait until she telephones you…

Then you need to take control.  Tell her it is over.  Tell her why.  Don’t listen to the excuses (there will be many)  It is time to be strong.  End the relationship on that call.  Then move on.  This is a very difficult thing to do.  It has happened to me, so I know how it feels…

I learned from my mistakes.  I looked at the behaviour of desirable Ukraine guys.  They don’t allow their girlfriends to mess them about at all.  At the first hint of behaviour like this her pretty popka will be toast!  RW/UW  KNOW THIS.  They are aware that a desirable guy can have his choice of women so they do not put the relationship in jeopardy.

Western guys are not used to acting like this.  Most guys let the woman call the shots.  This is perceived as weakness by RW/UW.  Believe it or not they expect you to act like a man they will respect you for it !  I have read countless stories over the last seven years of guys being given the run around by conniving devushki.  One fact relates all these tales.  The guy allowed the girl to act this way.   If you put her on a pedestal she will treat you like her lap dog.  These women are not for every guy.  You need to be STRONG to survive.  The notion that Slavic women are submissive is drivel. 

Chin up.  End this farce and move on. There is a women for you.  Learn from your experience and go find her !

[groovlstk]

DKMM,

Someone upstairs likes you. You've been given numerous opportunities to see this relationship for what it is: a sham. Now you can end it before you screw up the next 5 years of your life. END IT and end it for good, this time!

I've seen guys in your situation and the pattern is the same. I hate to make a prediction, but I would guess that in a few days you'll calm down and regret spending so much time and money to pursue this girl. Given your investment, you'll be reluctant to put a stake in the heart of the relationship. She'll be contrite and you'll entertain the idea of moving forward with her again. You'll invent a series of "hurdles" she'll have to clear in order to get back in your good graces: she'll have to be available every weekend, she'll have to decide to spend the NY with you, she'll have to be 100% committed to you, etc. etc.

DON'T DO IT. Prove me wrong, please!

Whenever I see guys truly p*ssywhipped by a woman who has no real feelings for him, I always wish he could get a glimpse - even for five minutes - of what it's like to love a Russian woman who truly loves him in return. He'd see the ocean of difference between what he has and what he could have, and never go back. Read KenC's and Anastassia's earlier posts and don't settle for anything less than what they found.

[Jazzyclassy]

DKMM I am glad you opened up your eyes and finally end up your tormented adventure with this woman, now you will be free and I am sure you will meet a woman who will love you for real and will care about you! You will see the difference and you will value this , you will just feel yourself another person.

The main thing never try to repeat your mistakes with the other women. Remember your experience and always know that no matter what everything will be great. Yes many emotions are wasted, many heart aches , but in the end you stopped yourself from committing a serious damage to your amazing carefree life.

Remember if you have doubts about the relations ,there is a good deal to dwell on the subject, you can not fully jump into lust and passion just like that, you need to listen to the deepest corners of your heart

I wish you all the best and this pain which you feel now , will make you stronger will build up your character in a way and will teach you how to value good  qualities in people.

Make sure she wont bend you over and you wont run after her after sometimes, remember you do not need the relations when you are always to blame always your fault and so on. You are a man and the woman who will love you , will make sure that you feel complete and feel like one !

[HiTech]

DKMM: Your description sounds almost exactly why I departed my last UW.You must be feeling gut shot at the moment.

HiTech

[WmGO]

DKMM,

Glad to see you are finally seeing the obvious. I am sorry for your pain
and disappointment, but it is important to realize that you brought it all
upon yourself because, like most WM, you threw common sense out the
window when you ventured into FSUW waters:

RW are a different creature and its hard to tell what is just cultural difference and what is a red flag. 

Here is my point: one of the biggest mistakes WM make when pursuing FSUW is rationalizing away bad/inappropriate/rude/dishonest/inconsistent/etc. behaviour as a "cultural difference".  It isn't. Wrongful/inappropriate/etc. behaviour is wrong every where and should be treated as such. Any good and decent FSUW raised properly by good parents will tell you this.

I will leave it to other men and FSUW to expound on this critical point of WM-FSUW relations. Just remember, if your common sense tells you that a lady's conduct isn't right, it ISN'T right.

Good luck and chock it up for experience.

[BillyB]

Lot's of girls out there that won't give you this kind of static. DKMM, you gave that woman more chances than I would've. No doubt in my mind you tried to make your relationship work but it takes two. Don't put up with that stuff and learn to walk away faster next time. There are sincere women out there just waiting for you to call. If you do consider RW in the FSU again, you need to get all the facts straight on what kind of process you need to go through after cancelling this k-1.

Important tip for men: Phone calls or the lack of it can reveal how motivated your RW is into you as DKMM found out.

[WmGO]

Don't put up with that stuff and learn to walk away faster next time. 

Another good rule - don't put up with dermo. The man wouldn't (hopefully) put up with it here so why put up with it there?

[Photo Guy]

DKMM,
Today, when I read about your eyes opening and seeing the red flags, I came away feeling this guy was too passive. So I agree with Leslie and Groov. She was the driver and you were the passenger. If you don't take the leadership role, most RW will not respect you. In the USA, if you take the leadership role, half of the single women will resent you. I think that's a real cultural difference that you need to deal with. You've been programmed by AW. Did your Mom dominate your Dad?  ...anyway, I'll leave that for a Dr. Phil show.

From now on, you need to be the leader. Be firm, but gentle. Looking at this thread, I don't know if you can change into that kind of person. You're easily blinded by the early mutual seduction phase, and she leads you by the hand into la-la land. During the infatuation stage, you must observe her character, her integrity, her honesty, etc., otherwise you'll end up completely lost and on the wrong course.

Bruno, I like your idea. Maybe DKMM can explore the local community of RW. It's a numbers game.

[Makkin]

 Sorry Bro'...


  I guess Jazzy has good instincts and can smell a rat.

Makkin

[Daveman]

...
Here is my point: one of the biggest mistakes WM make when pursuing FSUW is rationalizing away bad/inappropriate/rude/dishonest/inconsistent/etc. behaviour as a "cultural difference".  It isn't. Wrongful/inappropriate/etc. behaviour is wrong every where and should be treated as such. Any good and decent FSUW raised properly by good parents will tell you this.

...

He fades... he shoots... SCORE!!!

Cultural differences can and will present some unique and interesting hurdles, some insane laughter, and quite bizarre conversations at times, but never are they an excuse for rationalizing away any behavior which would be disingenuous in any other culture.

Makkin... this is true with all women.  They can smell a rat from the other side of the world.  Even the rats can smell other rats (and no, I'm not insinuating Jazzy is a rat). The problems is that we rarely listen to the words of our friends when they go against what we wish to believe about the target of our affections.  More often we distance ourselves from the friend and her words to keep our own wishful beliefs intact. 

But also, remember that the quest doesn't stop when finding a good RW... then you still have to make sure she fits together with you like hand in glove.

DKMM, good luck and don't give up.  Learn the lesson, even make a journal and move on.  I have journaled every aspect of my quest in great detail... you would be amazed what you can learn from simple thoughts written down and since forgotten when coming back to read two or three (or more) months later.  You learn as much about yourself as you do about RW's, without a doubt.

Dave

[Erwin]

I'm no longer blind to the red flags!

This weekend she disappeared again. I tried calling her on Friday and sent her sms's telling her to let me know when to talk.  on saturday, she sent one telling me she's at a company party all weekend without adddressing my need to speak with her.  i sent another one and one more on sunday.  she knew i needed to talk and it was regarding the visa and also our travel plans (which i'll get to in a moment).

Well she just sent one more on sunday saying she was going to bed early and not giving me a chance to call her.  On monday (that's sunday night here) she came to work and we did our usual chat on msn.  She said sorry she forgot her phone in someone's room and they closed it.  Then she came home and went to sleep. 

Its always an excuse almost every weekend.  I asked her 2 weeks ago why she didn't respond and she claimed her battery died (that happened more than once too).  She said she had no way of contacting me, except that I saw on her odnoklassniki that she was online well after she brushed me off with the "i'll sms you when i charge my phone".  When confronted with this she claimed someone stole her password.  I mean you got to be kidding me.

Ok, travel plans.  She thought it was a great idea to buy a doctor's list (lie) and take sick time to go to Italy on Jan 9-16 on some tour.  I tried to get it off but the boss said no way, too late in the month but i can go earlier if its a few less days.  So, after she told me we could just go to turkey for a few days earlier, I asked her if we could do that.  No, all of a sudden she thinks its a bad idea to lie to work because i'm not taking her to italy I wanted to go to russia.  So I responded ok I will come out during new years.  She got very agitated at this and told me its not long enough (i could be there 5 days) and she won't enjoy it.  She went on to say that we don't get along enough in the first few days and we will just not have a good time at all.   She said "i'll just see you in spring when i get the visa".

I was floored and explained that a couple is supposed to want to spend time together.  I already had other reasons to think she had alternate new years plans because her story about those changed a lot too.  Then i really got upset and told her i'm not going to tolerate these kinds of relations.  She responded with "you'll be ok with it later".  And "you're just upset, it will be ok tomorrow and I understand"  The sterva noticed that eventually i justify her behavior later. 

Nope!  that's enough for me thanks.  I'm pissed that I gave her money for a drivers license and doctor's appointment last week when she was so lovey dovey.  Anyways I got a hold of J, and she agreed to pick up the ring.  E said fine she will give it to her and that was it she wasn't upset at all.  J called her and they agreed to exchange it at lunch tomorrow.  I never heard anything else from E, so its obvious she's over it rather quickly.  I went all night without sleeping but she seems to be doing well.  So I guess in her mind she was just going to do whatever she wanted till the time came anyway.  At least she will give the ring back.  She wants her things back too, I have two suitcases full of her household items.  Maybe when i do my return tour but i'm a long way from ready to look for more girls.

The idea of waiting till she comes on the visa to see if this would work was stupid.

Dear DKMM,

I have followed your story about your relationship with this woman since you first posted it.  While I emphatize with your dilemma, your story compels me to take a little time out my busy schedule to provide you with my thoughts, which may sound a bit harsh, but I am going to  tell you as it is. 

DKMM, based on the information you provided in your story, she is playing with your heart. You know this. She is wasting your time and money.  She does not want or wish to spend any time with you in January. She is communicating with one or more other suiters who are interested in her and with whom she is interested in getting together in January.

A sincere and good Russian woman who truly loves and cares for you and who is only interested in you will not play games with you, tell you lies or give you excuses.  On the contrary, she cannot wait to talk to you and see you.  She will be very protective of and to you.   

Listen to your own heart, DKMM!.  Look into her manipulative characters.  You know she is not the right woman for you.

Do not ignore all of the redflags you are seeing now.  Do not ignore all of the evidences you have discovered about her to date.

Do not hesitate to dump her now and immediately withdraw your K-1 fiancee visa petition.

Do not waste anymore time and money on her.

Focus on other sincere and attractive Russian women who are sincerely interested in you as a person. 

Good luck to you.

Best,

E

[I/O]

DKMM: Sad story from start to finish and I hope for your sake you do stay committed to the finish of this. What doesn't kill you will make you stronger. FWIW, I promised myself years back that the first lie a woman told me would be the last lie she told me because she would never get another opportunity. I suggest you consider adopting a similar policy.

I/O

[ScottinCrimea]

DKMM,
I have sensed that you needed to know that you had made every possible effort before cutting it off or you would be forever kicking yourself and wondering "what if", and putting the blame on yourself.  This would, in turn, have poisoned any future relationship.  You needed the time, the mistakes, the internal inspection to be able to make the next opportunity more successful.

Take a bit of time, but don't give up on this because of one bad apple.  Most important, remember that, no matter how long distance the relationship, it takes time.  The good ones can fool you for quite a while, but eventually they hang themselves, given enough rope.

[Gator]

Some very wise comments from frequent posters with lessons for all.

Leslie,

Western guys are not used to acting like this.  Most guys let the woman call the shots.  This is perceived as weakness by RW/UW.

So true, but do not expect RW to submit when you bark.  Some will test you as routinely as taking a breath of air.  Much depends upon your particular bronco.  BTW, splendid for you to drop in again, Leslie.

Groovlstk,

Whenever I see guys truly p*ssywhipped by a woman who has no real feelings for him, I always wish he could get a glimpse - even for five minutes - of what it's like to love a Russian woman who truly loves him in return....She'll be contrite and you'll entertain the idea of moving forward with her again

The "into you" comment is exactly what KenC preached in the beginning when the train was teetering.  RW have so much pride that I doubt she will attempt a return.

Jazzy,

Yes many emotions are wasted, many heart aches , but in the end you stopped yourself from committing a serious damage to your amazing carefree life….Make sure she wont bend you over.

DKMM got on the train too early, but he got off before it wrecked his life.   I ascertain that some men have ridden the train until it killed them.  The “bend over” comment really made me laugh, although I know what you meant and agree.

WmGO

one of the biggest mistakes WM make when pursuing FSUW is rationalizing away bad/inappropriate/rude/dishonest/inconsistent/etc. behaviour as a "cultural difference".  It isn't. Wrongful/inappropriate/etc. behaviour is wrong everywhere

Needs to be added somewhere as a commandment.  In my first year or two, my lack of understanding of RW mentality created some confusion and a couple of conflicts.  However, it was about injured pride, role separation, etc.   In contrast, not talking, not wanting to see you, and lying are not cultural and are deal killers.

BillyB,

Phone calls or the lack of it can reveal how motivated your RW is into you.

A RW into you will always close the call with encouragement for you to call again, the sooner the better.

I/O.

I promised myself years back that the first lie a woman told me would be the last lie she told me because she would never get another opportunity. 

Personally, I have probably been too forgiving in my life.  But there was never a third lie.  Good liars are difficult to catch and the truth usually comes well after the fact.

ScottinCrimea,

I have sensed that you needed to know that you had made every possible effort before cutting it off or you would be forever kicking yourself and wondering "what if"…. can fool you for quite a while, but eventually they hang themselves, given enough rope.

DKMM displayed remarkable commitment and patience, something many of us preach as necessary.  Marrying a RW is not natural; too much is expected to happen in a compressed timeframe amid cultural and language confusion.  IMO, time is the answer for which there is no substitute.  It takes time for the rope to uncoil. 

[DKMM]

Ahh good ol RWD!  Hehe I knew you guys would step up with the support.  I've been getting it from everyone in my life actually.

In case it wasn't obvious, me asking for the ring and telling her i'm not putting up with this was me already breaking up with her.  I kicked this chick to the curb, this woman i loved and wanted to marry.  It sucks but at the same time I'm glad to be rid of her ways.  She's not quite as bad as some of you made her out to be, but she is still not deserving of anymore of my time at all.  For instance, she would send me sms's to call her quite often, daily contact and hours of talking and her telling me how much she loves me was the norm SOME days and other days, usually the weekend it was BS.  So it wasn't as obvious to me as it seems on here because i'm leaving out the 90% good times i had with her.  Still I'm no dummy and its all really obvious after the deal killer.

Gator and Leslie, yes I know what you are saying.  AW hate me because i'm dominate, firm and at times unemotional to the point of being flippant.  I got tired of my last AW because she just let me walk all over her and never had her own opinion.  This E she let me be the man as well at first.  BUT she slowly battled for position and charmed her way to make me be her puppy indeed.  I tried to end things before, but what can i do I'm engaged.  ending it to show her whos boss wasn't an option (goodbye visa) like i would have easily done here or if i was living there.  Once she lost respect for me i was toast.  at best I could tell her i won't accept things but she eventually grew not worried of my empty threats.

I present the letter from her trying to explain how to treat her.  I nominate this for the all time classics on RWD:

Darling you are very smart and nice person and I do respect you a lot!  And I love you a lot... want to be with you!
But its important for me to tell you this.
Darling when i communicate with you should be a bit stricter with me (because I'm a strong person but you shouldn't let me behave like I want sometimes moody for examply, but when you need to put me in my place you can do that through joke with a lot of self respect), otherwise if I can feel that I'm allowed to do what the hell I want... that will be a disaster!  I shouldn't think like that: no matter what I would do you will forgive my behavior!
I should feel that you have a lot of self respect!
Sometimes I'm like a child try to press different buttons and want to see the reaction...so to understand how far I can go... (How much power I have ))... That's very childish but its how you understand if that person will be able to manage with you or he is not strong enough for that!  its important to point me sometime not to go too far in pushing buttons!
And if you see that I don't want to be held or touched by you... It shouldn't offed you... and you don't try to continue holding me or touching me again... just leave me for a while... and you'll see I'll come by myself...
I hate when some is importunate!  [edit -importunate is someone overly persistent like I get when she's withdrawn]
You will have to restrain yourself not to become importunate!
I know that you love me but I also should know that not everything is allowed!
You have to learn how correctly and ingeniously to put me in my right place!  It's not easy but you have to learn how to do that and I'll be helping you!  Like making this letter how to "operate" me )
And [during PMS] its really difficult to control my self!

Russian men that are rather strict with Russian women.

[Photo Guy]

Yes- a classic mind of a RW on an emotional level. You can see the dominance issue. But, her integrity/honesty is generally lacking. Actions speak louder than words. Stop all communications with her.

[jj]

DKMM   - It is hard to see the good that will come out of ending the relationship now, but hind-sight will make you more experienced in the future.  It will make you appreciate and see the difference in a woman who will really care and love you and can't wait to see you or have you visit., even if it is for a few days at a time.  A good FSU woman will wait anxiously for your call and visits.  I speak from my own experience on this.  You will find that woman too, if you will proceed with renewed awareness.  There are good FSU gals who would love to connect with a serious, caring man.  Hang in there man!  

[I/O]

Russian men that are rather strict with Russian women.

  Quite true sometimes. Simple response was all that was necessary, "If that's what you want, go find one.............if you can". The Russian guys I know would have pissed her off long ago in leu of someone far better. They just wouldn't bother. They happen to know what you should have worked out long ago, they have other options, many of them.

I/O

[Gator]

I am impressed.  She knew the word "importunate."  Heck, I thought it was Ebonics for "important."  No, that would be "impotent" (im-pot-ent).

Sorry for making light of your situation.  However, you seem well adjusted.  For sure, you are not whining or sniveling as a weak man would. 

Who knows what she wanted by the "leave me for a while" when in a bad mood. What is the length of "for a while"?  My Cossack required 2 or more days, and this conflicted with my personality.  I don't like moody people, and I do not like people who withdraw rather than confront and resolve.

[Jazzyclassy]

Let's say the woman who would really love you , would never have written such letter, it is just a letter telling you  that you have no self respect and that you are not a man. She loves herself very much and if she is not gonna change she wont find any serious normal guy in her life.

[DKMM]

I'm surprised that this type of thought process has been encountered before!  So this is the emotional mind of a typical unstable RW?  NOT trying to make light of the situation but its still better than the unstable AW.   

I/O that was my response (this letter was a while ago after some fightin in person).  In fact it was the first time I told her I was going to end this if she wanted to act this way, because I am never going to be a RM.  You are right, no normal man from any culture would put up with this, and its probably telling as to why she started looking overseas for a partner.  RM were often coming to take her out but she tossed them aside one by one probably because she could tell they would never be "strong enough" (desperate enough?) to stick with her. 

Gator, it was for a matter of hours when she would be like this.  Sometimes a whole night.  This again is nothing unique to any female but, like your case, this extended version wasn't worth the effort.  She actually told me she got it from her dad, but I won't go there...

J picks up the ring in 3 hours, might be an interesting story behind it.

[Lily]

So this is the emotional mind of a typical unstable RW?  NOT trying to make light of the situation but its still better than the unstable AW.   
 

I think it rather looks like an emotional mind of an instable W. No matter if RW or AW ...

[I/O]

I do not like people who withdraw rather than confront and resolve.

Gator: I think you'd fit quite well into our household.

I/O

[Turboguy]

  She's not quite as bad as some of you made her out to be,

Personally I don't think she is a bad person at all.   She is probably a very good person.   However"

1.   She is not in love with you and really probably has little concern for you and may be incapable of loving anyone right now.

2.  She is very immature and really needs to grow up a lot.   Perhaps this may help her a bit to take life more seriously and appreciate the good things when you have them

3.   I think she has some issues as well that may never get resolved, maybe with some medication, maybe not.


DKMM, it has often been said that power and money are an aphrodisiac.   Drama can also be one for a guy and if you ever find yourself attracted to the drama and trauma of an emotionally unstable woman then you need to rethink your own ideas as well.  I am not saying you are but it is easy to be drawn into all the difficulties the wrong woman can put into their life.   Men feel a lot of compassion and sympathy for women with problems.

[Serebro]

Well, I am not surprised at all.
At the same time I think her letter is predictable.
From what I heard about DKMM from his previous threads he seemed to be a very unusual type of a man for a typical Russian woman:always complained about little things like mosquitos/traffic/whatever else, invited his "mama"who also complained, didn't pay at the restaurant, his "mama" paid instead...

He doesn't need a gf, he needs another "mommy" to take care of him. His gf wanted a Man. She tried to cope with it, she failed...then she wrote an honest letter to him...

it's predictable..