looking for travel advice from the experienced

[Admin]

You will never succeed by seeking to silence those who can offer a lower price.

It is funny. You refer to the last paragraph of my message while it was just a postscriptum, and it looks like you did not read the previous one. I did not try to silence anyone. I was surprised that someone was trying to silence me. But, as I learned here it is OK for free market economy you enjoy in the US.

It is always interesting to learn something new about America and Americans though I cannot say all I am learning is beautiful.
[/quote]

Igor,

You are correct. I did to your message what a lot of American press does in the news. It is called a "sound bite" - where someone takes only the part of a statement or message that suits their reply.

I apologize for doing that to you. The other parts of your message were quite well presented, and you are obviously a person who thinks logically and rationally.

One day, over a beer in Kyiv, I will buy the rounds to make up for my indiscretion. OK?

Take care,

- Dan

[Stirlitz]

Turboguy,

Glad to see at least one reasonable posting here.

Dan,

We are friends.

[Michelangelo]

I an in Ukraine and need help with local services in Kiev.  I need to travel to Zhitmer for an afternoon and evening.  Anyone know of such services in Kiev?  Thanks!

[Jack]

Michael, not a problem. E-mail me and we can get you a driver to Zhitmer probably within the next couple hours.

Stirlitz, glad to see you find a post reasonable (interpreters,.. Their rates are $ 10.00 the first hour and $ 5.00 each hour after) 

[Stirlitz]

[user=65]Michael[/user],

I can put you in touch with a great guy in Kiev named Pavel. I sent you an PM.

[Jack]

Pavel's a great guy Michael.  He takes great care of many of our clients and the driver he would probably use to take you to Zhitmer is one of my favorites. Don't know what we would do without Pavel during our tours. His e-mail is paul_na@ukr.net                   

[Stirlitz]

[user=3]Jack,[/user]

I already PM'd Michael Pavel's e-mail and phone number, and no need to publish it here where spambots will snatch it.

[Jack]

Igor, I have posted Pavel's e-mail address on the net quite a few times over the past few years.

I feel if I (or anyone) can recommend someone in private, I (or anyone) can surely recommend them publically.

[Photo Guy]

Competitive strategies.

It seems to me that the following often occurs:

Person A offers a higher priced product than Person B.

So Person B says Person A's product is over-priced. (a rip-off?)
Person A counters that with the notion that their product
is superior to B's. (you get what you pay for)

Those strategies can be taken to an extreme or not.
It can get out of hand. It did.

Interestingly, on US television, TV ads do use those strategies,
BUT it extremely rare for an advertiser to attack another
specific product or advertiser. Instead, the ads are presented
in a world of many products, rather than the small number
of products and services we see here at RWD. The message board
is such a small world, it's pretty impossible NOT to take
competitive remarks personally. What's the solution?

For me, the competition crosses the line when it takes
on a malicious tone.

For a newbie like myself, the competitive remarks don't
help me much, because there is no way in advance to know
how good Person A or B's service actually is. There's only the word
of mouth from people I don't know all that well. Maybe with
time this will become clearer.  -doug L.  

[Stirlitz]

OK. Something is wrong with this board. Good bye to all.

[Bruno]

[line]
OK. Something is wrong with this board. Good bye to all.
[line]
Something ? What ?

[Jack]

Oh Photo Guy, look what you did now. You must have said something that pissed of Igor. I guess this talk of "Competitive Strategies" is not something he is used to hearing on other Russian discussion boards.

[Turboguy]

Well, some of this does make interesting conversation but I think a little less picking might be easier on peoples egos.  

I think some people think the law of supply and demand is an American thing.  It is not.  Anywhere with a free economy it will prevail.  If someone wants to charge $ 5.00 an hour or $ 10.00 an hour or $ 50.00 an hour it is their right.  If they have a better service they will be able to get a premium.  

Business is not just about the lowest price.  It is about the best value.    The gal I am engaged to and I used an interpeter the first night.   He was an amateur to be sure.  Had that been a shorter trip I would have written my gal off.   As it was we found we could talk (through writing notes to each other) and in a very short time we found we were in love.   Saving a few bucks on an interpereter in my case could have really messed up my life.

If someones prices are too high for the service they deliver they will end up spending a lot of time twiddling their thumbs and trying to find out what to do with themselves.  The free ecomomy will come into play.   It will dawn on this person that $ 20.00 an hour times zero hours is less money than $ 2.00 an hour times lots of hours.   That person will find the point of greatest return which they teach in Economy 101.  That might me $ 5.00 or $ 7.00 or 10.00  that is not important. 

I see a lot of helpfull people here.  I am really enjoying the site.  I am picking up a lot of good info and I am sort of in a waiting stage in my life right now.  I write lots of messages to my gal but she is half way around the world and talking about her and the processes and the things others go through in their relationship with a Russian woman is great.   It helps fill the gap in my life while I start the K-1 process and wait and wait and wait.   I think this site is at it's best though when the conversations are positive and not trying to find fault with businesses,  nationalities, peoples.   I think those here who have a business are trying their best to provide a good service at a fair price.   I hope we can all keep this a positve and helpful site.   

[Bruno]

Jack, Doug... free economy don't exist... All country try to protect his own market...

By example, some product from Belgium are taxed at 300% when they reach US... our steel is very low price and the steel industry in US is in bad situation... US have make high tax for protect his workers...

But Europa make the same with some US product... meat of bull and cereals... because our agriculture is at a low level...

And i understand Igor who wish protect his national market... We come in his country and earn money... he have work a lot for make his business and some US guys with a little start capital earn some money and kill the job of local worker...

We need to be honest with ourself, western country use the cheap worker from some country for make product at low price... and earn a lot of money... No one is black of white, everybody is grey in these fight about translator...

[Photo Guy]

Bruno,
Sure a 100% free economy doesn't exist, but there is still
some freedom - a lot of freedom. I can go to Ukraine
and choose between various interpreters who charge
various rates. They are free to charge what they decide to charge,
and the same is true for hotel rooms, flats, etc. Nobody believes
that there is no nationalist protectionism. And I'm not looking
to buy steel at this time.   -doug L.

[Photo Guy]

....And what happened to Stirlitz?    ??

[Jack]

Well Bruno, Cameraguy, if I have learned anything from this thread it is not to discuss $5 an hour interpreters again.

[Photo Guy]

Now that you mention it. You're right. You started ALL OF
THIS S&#T!!    Are you an instigator?  
...and don't ever call me 'Cameraguy' again or my
people will be contacting your people.   -doug

[Bruno]

Doug, i am not a expert in economy... Galina have try to explain some of her knowledge about this but it is enough complex... in our case, we speak about translator... one is from US and the other from Ukraine... all the two work in Ukraine... it can be some difference in the tax who allow Jack to make lower price ( tax pay in US because the social office is in US ? ) and Igor who pay high tax in Ukraine...

On the other side, the reaction of Igor is trong... in place of explain deeply his point of view, he give up... business is so complex that only see the point of vieuw of price is not enough... of course, price is the first thing that customer see but other parameter come in my mind when i wish buy product...

And about our steel, don't worry, china take all... they are the perfect example of communisme mixed with capitalism... and very strange, it is working... they are on the way to become the first economical power in the world... and what is the power of china... low price like Jack... and since some year, they make quality product, almost luxe...

Jack, discut of price is not bad... but when this is coming from two owner of business... it is dangerous... some fight are possible... but these forum is like a little community... with time some fight appear about some subject... everybody is free to stay, or go away... i have know this, i was almost away but i have feel that it was not the good choice because i can always help some other people from these forum.

The choice of Igor is not good... he go away and stay alone people who need his knowlegde for other thing... but i don't worry too much... maybe he come back in some time of maybe we can have a new member who replace him... he was a ukrainian man and his point of view was interesting...

[jb]

he was a ukrainian man and his point of view was interesting...

I'm sorry, I don't believe the above statement is quite right. Amended to read:

he was a ukrainian businessman and his point of view was to mingle among his potential client base ...

....now that's about right.

I think you can safely say that Stirlitz, (Igor), would not  waste his time discussing marriage strategies with a bunch of foreign men unless there was the odd chance he could pick up a few new clients.  I also believe you should pick and choose from whom you take advice very carefully.  If after examining their motives I doubt you'd conversationally discuss the relative merits of your next car purchase with a guy who sells used cars for a living. Same principal applies here.  I wouldn't deliberately run the guy off, but I wouldn't, (as the Russians say) lick his heels either.

One less salesman amongst us will not be a great loss.

[Photo Guy]

 SNIP
And about our steel, don't worry, china take all... they are the perfect example of communisme mixed with capitalism... and very strange, it is working... they are on the way to become the first economical power in the world... and what is the power of china... low price like Jack... and since some year, they make quality product, almost luxe...

Yes, I've read about the economy of Ukraine and specifically
Mariupol, where Larisa lives. It's a big steel city. They export it
to China. Back on topic: Any travel advice about visiting Mariupol?
Should I bring oxygen? water? candy? a sense of humor?  -doug L.

By the way, I don't really know what to think about these people
selling their services- Igor, Jack, or the other Doug. The jagged
discussion didn't clarify things for me. I do sort of like the
strategy of an independent quest, promoted by Doug S., although
I'm currently using the services of one of those big web agencies,
because I began the process by stumbling around on the net.

[Admin]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Yes, I've read about the economy of Ukraine and specifically Mariupol, where Larisa lives. It's a big steel city. They export it to China. Back on topic: Any travel advice about visiting Mariupol? Should I bring oxygen? water? candy? a sense of humor?  -doug L.

By the way, I don't really know what to think about these people selling their services- Igor, Jack, or the other Doug. The jagged discussion didn't clarify things for me. I do sort of like the strategy of an independent quest, promoted by Doug S., although I'm currently using the services of one of those big web agencies, because I began the process by stumbling around on the net.

Doug,

Mariupol is unbelievably polluted. It sits right on the Sea of Asov - a very shallow sea. The water is used both as cooling for several huge industrial facilities, but also as a dumping for effluent from the same complexes. Mariupol was voted as the second most polluted city on the face of the planet by National Geographic some years back (first place was 'awarded' to an industrial city in rural China). It is also quite hot in the summer - best to find an apartment with A/C, if you are there in the summer.

As for varying advice as to "How To" go about this process - the one piece of advice that you can be assured is valid is: Avoid the zealots. Anyone who doggedly holds to one, and only one, particular 'style' for this endeavor - is almost certain to be promoting a style that serves principally to enrich themselves.

Some of the people that give the appearance of being altruistic, are in fact, zealots seeking self-enrichment in one form or another. Their feigned altruism is merely a guise to draw people in.

Take in what everyone has to say - accept the parts that are most suited for YOU, that which resonates with you and seems to fit your particular style and instinct - and discard all the other 'noise'.

You have been doing that by participating on this board. I think you will be far more prepared to make your journey more effective and successful as a result.

- Dan

[Stirlitz]

I did not really want to post here again, but I will make just one last statement to make things clear before I log off because I don't want good guys to misunderstand me.

First, what is wrong with this board is Dan. I don't feel he is moderating it impartially and correctly as someone who has no axe to grind or is careful enough should. I am not sure but that is what I feel.

Next, I don't like posting along with people like Jack who can make off statements like "Oh Photo Guy, look what you did now. You must have said something that pissed of Igor." which is complete bullshit because you don't really have to be smart to realize Photoguy has nothing to do with my decision (especially if you followed the thread), and Jack surely knew that when he was posting; therefore I consider him a dishonest person who likes to defame others and make people enemies to each other. Photoguy is quite right about who started all of that, but I think it is not worth it to argue with people like Jack.

Now to jb, I do mingle with my potential customers but I am picking much more through direct advertising and the real reason I am here I want to make friends and share information as well as learn something new, and I just don't feel that the environment here is good enough to that end. I do it partly indeed because of my business interests: I must keep up my English, be up-to-date to what's going on, what people want, have or expect. As for picking up clients if you were right that this is the reason I am there, I would definitely stay and argued with Jack, or you or whoever, engage in mud-slinging and defamation, do my best to look good to everybody, etc. I don't just sink as low as do that. I am even surprised that you do not understand it, and if you do, then you are someone like Jack who tries to make me look in a certain way which he knows is not true. I must tell you that when I get orders from British companies to translate technical specification, it is far more profitable than a few letters & hours someone here can order. And all it needs is advertising, no reading and posting, and an order for $2,000 would be a "small payment" for them (something I read in a forwarded e-mail); how many of guys here would pay that much for translation? Right now I have a very good customers who told me that as a professional who charges lots of $$$ he actually expected me to charge him substantially and did not mind it at all; and the money he is paying me is enough to tell all losers and cheapskates "drop dead", and if it were all about money I would not even read any boards let alone posting. There are other boards I participate in, and in some of them I have not picked up a single customer over years. But I helped many people, learned something new, made some friends, so I still read and post there despite it being total waste of time according to jb. It is also fun. Here I see I am getting more enemies than friends and I obviously don't like it, it is not fun. Again, if it was all about money I would shut up and put up, but it's not, so I quit.

[Bruno]

[line]
First, what is wrong with this board is Dan. I don't feel he is moderating it impartially and correctly as someone who has no axe to grind or is careful enough should. I am not sure but that is what I feel.

[line]


I don't agree... Dan have wish these forum free of censure and without moderator... and he is always try to find a middle position and resolve the fight...

If Dan have moderate his forum, it is long time that myself and JB was banned for our politic discution... that you and Jack was banned from these price discussion... but he allow everybody to say what he think...

And why Dan have not banned us... because except our fight we make other post who are interesting for newbies... verbal fight are usual in all communauties... and the big work is to resolve the problem... go away is the easy way, not the way of real man... Give the fault to Dan is easy too but he have not start any of these fight... It is our own fault and the only solution is too learn from our error for this don't happend anymore...

[jb]

Dan,

You said that very well.

I have tried to suggest to the newbies much the same idea.  I just didn't say it as well.  This little flame fest over pricing for services only highlights the need to pay close attention.  Always question the motives of anyone telling you that their way is the only way to do something.  A case in point is a recent post here from "Bud from AFA", now I'll be the first to say that I don't know Bud at all, he's probably a great guy.  However he gives strong advice that leads a newbie to think his service is the "way to go", and makes the tour package sound very attractive in the process.  It may be the way some men should go, but it's certainly not the only way to go.

Personally, I advocate the use of no outside services at all.  If a man isn't mentally tough enough, isn't resourceful enough, isn't independant enough, to do his own courting, he's probably in the wrong game. Getting someone else to do your wife hunting, and talking for you is pretty lame.  Addresses are easy enough to get, why not take charge of the courtship from there?  Another much overlooked approach is personal referrals and introductions.  Don't be afraid to meet with women who are friends of the wives who are already here and happy in their new homes.

Of course the downside to this method is the work involved, a man must put forth a great deal of personal effort to build a relationship on his own, and believe me, it's a lot of work and expense.  No one is going to just hand you a wife in a neatly wrapped package and your life will be worry free for now on.  Although I do believe when you look at the rewards  of courting and winning a woman on your own, it beats the hell out of buying a pig in a poke that you really don't know anything about.

P.S.  Igor, please.......
I did not defame you, I merely pointed out that you are your own shill. There's nothing wrong with tooting your own horn, building your own business, selling your own  services, etc., but the methodology reeks.  If you were here to make friends you would meet with your "friends" and render services for free.  At least that's the way it works here, a "friend" asks a favor and no money changes hands to help a "friend" out.  These men are not your friends, so please don't try to peddle that soft soap here.  

Jack is capable of his own retort.