Scam 101 revisted

[SANDRO43]

One thing is for sure, when 100,000 prostitutes retire because they are replaced by younger models, or because their bodies are wore out or ravaged by disease and they have no further skills to get employment, they will search for a rich/foreign husband for support.

I managed to catch only 53 Double Dealers, so far . Don't think I have enough disk space for the other 99,947 .

[jb]

Does anyone remember AndrewFI?  Some of his experience with the girls of St Pietr should be required reading for all newbies.   He called MOB agencies the "Dirty Barrel".

[BC]

Does anyone remember AndrewFI? 

IIRC he caught grief from a lot of agency owners for that..

[IAmZon]

Billy B wrote " Wow! If this information is Scam 101, I wonder what kind information Scam 201 is going to provide?" LOL  I was thinking exactly the same thing.


So what's the answer gentlemen?  We have more information, education, capability, and resources than perhaps we rightly deserve ...

My personal view is that gilrs working, and girls wrecklessly flirting / partying is a very very thin line.  I do not moralize, or value judge FOR SURE. It is not so easy to apply black and white thinking. 

But for those women who are truly victims, I would like to think of a way to assist.  Is such a initiative reasonable without becoming Mother Theresa on the ground?  Certainly nnothing we could do would change the underlying conditions. 

Any ideas?

[Gator]

Jack,

Of course I have been to the places you name.  As I said before, I do not look for prostitutes and did not see them.  

Serebro wrote,

Gator, people often see what they WANT to see...you remember that Jack is not looking for marriage

BINGO!

Jack, to end this debate in your favor, I will agree to the following:  walking beside a loving, beautiful and fun woman makes me oblivious to other women.   Too bad no such woman was by your side.  

[Gator]

JB,

Yes, I remember Andrewfi.  An interesting combination of verbosity and lucidity.  Highly intelligent Brit.  Moved to Tallinn after years in St. Piter.  Posted frequently and always critical of America and AM, particularly for forsaking their peers (AW).

He admitted to avoiding marriage agencies and instead meeting RW only at bars.  He for sure crossed into the darkside and knew about prostitutes, former prostitutes, agency RW who frequented bars, etc.  He tended to paint everyone with a broad brush (e. g., all AM are stupid, all MOB agency women go to the bars, etc.).  I think he did most of this just to get a rise from people.

Getting to your “MOB Dirty Barrel” point, I am certain Andrewfi would know more about this issue than anyone.   If for no other reason than random numbers, Andrewfi encountered some loose women and hookers who were also listed with MOB agencies.  The question remains of what percentage they represent.  Is it as high as Andrew would suggest, or is it low?  I do not know.  I do not care.  I would think that ex-prostitutes could be easily avoided.  I would think that they are classless and perhaps anti-social from having sold their dignity, two qualities that would never attract my attention.

We are ignoring another situation.  What about women who were sponsored at one time?  These women are exchanging sex for money.  The two differences are 1) companionship is part of the transaction and 2) they are with one man for a prolonged period rather than sucking and humping 15-20 different men a week.  Sponsorship is for sure a part of the FSU culture.  How prevalent I do not know.   They are there and I met a few. 

The desperate economic times of the FSU in the past plus the disparity in income between men and women has left its mark on RW.  The concept of security, which Western men take for granted, preoccupies the mentality of many RW.  Some may have done things they never would have done if living in the West.

[BillyB]

I managed to catch only 53 Double Dealers, so far . Don't think I have enough disk space for the other 99,947 .

Not all prostitutes will catch a foreign man through an agency if they in fact want to get married someday.

I remember reading a trip report of an attorney doing a WOVO. It ended up not working out. During that trip he went to the strip club for some entertainment. A stripper approached him and offered a good time for a certain amount of money. He refused. She must have went to the back room and told her friend that a man out there is marriage material so her friend goes out and tells him she wants to go out with him without the exchange of money for services. He agreed and they had a good time and she gave him an all night sexual performance he'd never forget. The next morning she acted sad he was leaving back to America and seemed to want to form a relationship with him. He of course did not pursue that woman anymore but someday she'll catch her foreign man that visits the strip club she works in. Some guy will believe she is wife material.

I too remember Andrew. He lumped the women we're pursing in the same category as prostitutes based on the fact he said our women were selling themselves too. He is also an admitted customer of commercial sex.

[AnastassiaAsh]

All i can say that situation with prostitution in Moscow is extremely bad, Jack is absolutely right no matter how many spelling mistakes he makes  .

Gator, you are blessed with such a beauty by your side, looks like you will be second Turbo!  Hope soon you won't have to deal with Russian reality at all when you bring your lady here. But i am truly impressed. What are you old guys doing so special to make such a young beauty want to marry you?  Or maybe you have $10mil stashed in your retirement?  (jokingly) 

Jack, I can't wait for Scam 102. Very good idea by the way. Some men need to see and read exactly how it all happens with details. Helena's pics are pretty good.    And her English is not bad either. Scammers are seemingly doing a great job, but only seemingly.

[Jack]

hey Anastassia, 

Yea, I think anyone who cannot see the obvious out of control sex industry in Moscow just does not want to see it, it's so obvious.

This afternoon or no later than tomorrow I will find time to create Scam 102.   The whole event was quite surprising.  I still think running newspaper ads are a good idea, but now will need to watch a little more closely and share with the guys the latest development.

In one sence AnastassisA it shows that things must be getting a little tighter for the women who are scamming for income.  Some are looking at new ways as the older ways many guys are catching on.  One reason why I felt good about the low percentage of scammers in the past who would reply to newspapers ads was due to the time it would take and they had it easy with just working the guys over from the internet.

[BC]

The desperate economic times of the FSU in the past plus the disparity in income between men and women has left its mark on RW.  The concept of security, which Western men take for granted, preoccupies the mentality of many RW.  Some may have done things they never would have done if living in the West.

Dissolving all the proverbial 'salt' that Andrew threw in with his posts, I believe he realized and tried to disseminate one important point..  - That in the end, women in agencies whether full blown prostitute, good time girl, professional dater, women with a few shopping desires or even honestly looking for a mate, they all have something in common.. -They are all willing to make some kind of compromise in order to attain a chance for a better life.

There is no way in hell that someone can draw a line fine enough to properly distinguish one from the other.. -a line drawn that cannot be seen with the naked eye, under a microscope can have the same breadth as one drawn on a football field.  Whatever one says regarding Andrew's lifestyle,  his discourse in the end,  leaves very little room for debate.

At least that's the way I see things.  He of course may come 'round' and tell me that this post is total BS but even that's ok..  I did learn a good bit about the English language from his posts.

[Admin]

Dissolving all the proverbial 'salt' that Andrew threw in with his posts, I believe he realized and tried to disseminate one important point..  - That in the end, women in agencies whether full blown prostitute, good time girl, professional dater, women with a few shopping desires or even honestly looking for a mate, they all have something in common.. -They are all willing to make some kind of compromise in order to attain a chance for a better life.

There is no way in hell that someone can draw a line fine enough to properly distinguish one from the other.. -a line drawn that cannot be seen with the naked eye, under a microscope can have the same breadth as one drawn on a football field.  Whatever one says regarding Andrew's lifestyle,  his discourse in the end,  leaves very little room for debate.

At least that's the way I see things.  He of course may come 'round' and tell me that this post is total BS but even that's ok..  I did learn a good bit about the English language from his posts.

I wonder ... what evidence do we have to suggest that a RW who lists her profile with Elena's Models, is any different - motivation-wise - than an AW who lists her profile on Match.com?

Why would we not take it on face value that both are, simply, interested in finding a life-partner (or whatever they state they want to find in their listing)?

Sometimes, I think there is way too much interpretation - and judgment.

- Dan

[BC]

I wonder ... what evidence do we have to suggest that a RW who lists her profile with Elena's Models, is any different - motivation-wise - than an AW who lists her profile on Match.com?

Why would we not take it on face value that both are, simply, interested in finding a life-partner (or whatever they state they want to find in their listing)?

Sometimes, I think there is way too much interpretation - and judgment.

- Dan

Dan,

As sad as it may sound, Andrew also had this angle figured out - economics.

Is it unreasonable to draw parallel between countries that have the best 'wife potential' and those that exhibit an unusually high tolerance for prostitution? After all, they share the same geographic spaces i.e. FSU, a few asian and south/central American countries.

Lets face it, we're not talking the same 'territory' as DC's 14th street (as I briefly remember it back in the very early 80's).

[Shadow]

Regarding the 'problem' or prostitution, I think that Moscow does not suffer this problem any more or less as any other major city.
I do not think that there is any city of 10 million people where there is no prostitution.
As long as there are clients, there will be women ready to sell sex for money.

[Gator]

BC,

I disagree with you as I did with Andrew.  And if true, what makes your RW different?

Andrewfi screamed "economics" incessantly, exactly what I would expect from a man with only shallow, physical feelings towards women.  His theory was that RW married foreign men strictly because of money, or the lack thereof in her country.  This extrapolates to a RW will sell her soul to the highest bidder.  I do not think this is true.

I think RW list themselves with an agency because of a combination of several factors:  most available and desirable RM are not interested in marriage, AM are supposedly good family men, Western men provide economic stability and security, there are better opportunities for her and her children, it would be fun and interesting to date a Western man and see firsthand what they are about, a friend has married a Western man and she is happy, etc.   Is this about economics?  Yes, but more, much more is involved.  

Dan’s comments about women on Elena’s Models and Match.com are accurate.  

BC, the government in Laos is highly intolerant of prostitution.  A woman just talking to a Western man on the streets will be arrested by the police.    

[Gator]

Anastasia,

Gator, you are blessed with such a beauty by your side...

Thank you.  She is a blessing in so many ways.

I am not sure that your other comments are complimentary, and seem to reflect your fundamental belief that May-December marriages are wrong.  Your term "Russian reality" portends trouble ahead. 

Also, your "10 million" is insulting to my woman; she has high standards (and would never settle for such a trifling amount  ).

I do not want to hijack this thread, nor talk about my relationship in a thread dedicated to prostitution.  If you wish to start a new thread about whatever you mean by "Russian reality" and its implications for old guys, I will respond.  Maybe Turbo, KenC and others would add something.

[BC]

BC,

I disagree with you as I did with Andrew.  And if true, what makes your RW different?

Gator,

Do you think that my wife totally disregarded the possibility that she and our kids, could have a relatively good life elsewhere?  Do you think that with all these great looking Italian women around that my only choice was a RW?  Great looking yes, so much younger no.. at the time I was 43 and she was 25.or 26 or so (I really don't remember). She had a number of (younger and older) suitors but why did she choose to marry me?

If anything, throughout this process I have tried to remain a realist, in the end probably to my (our) advantage.

[Admin]

Gator,

Do you think that my wife totally disregarded the possibility that she and our kids, could have a relatively good life elsewhere?  Do you think that with all these great looking Italian women around that my only choice was a RW?  Great looking yes, so much younger no.. at the time I was 43 and she was 25.or 26 or so (I really don't remember). She had a number of (younger and older) suitors but why did she choose to marry me?

If anything, throughout this process I have tried to remain a realist, in the end probably to my (our) advantage.

BC,

Unless one can associate purely altruistic and love-based reasoning for marriage by ANY nationality (India, with arranged marriage perhaps), then I submit that virtually ALL women in ALL countries could be accused of being a part of Andrew's "dirty barrel". Simple fact is that women and men across the globe, if they are thinking at all, give consideration to the economics of marriage - and those in wealthy countries, I would expect, think about it just as much as those from poorer countries.

FWIW

- Dan

[BillyB]

ALL women in ALL countries could be accused of being a part of Andrew's "dirty barrel".

One of Andrew's objectives was to get men to believe there was no difference between the women they run with and the women he runs with and he successfully did that to a large degree. But it's not difficult to understand there IS a clear difference between a woman who sincerely wants to work hard for a decent family life and look for a good husband she could grow old with and a woman that will lay on her back and screw anything that gives her money/better life. Should a woman who is faithful, trustworthy, and who'd work hard to keep her family happy and strong be labeled the same with the prostitutes/gold diggers in the "dirty barrel"?

[Admin]

One of Andrew's objectives was to get men to believe there was no difference between the women they run with and the women he runs with and he successfully did that to a large degree. But it's not difficult to understand there IS a clear difference between a woman who sincerely wants to work hard for a decent family life and look for a good husband she could grow old with and a woman that will lay on her back and screw anything that gives her money/better life. Should a woman who is faithful, trustworthy, and who'd work hard to keep her family happy and strong be labeled the same with the prostitutes/gold diggers in the "dirty barrel"?

My point in the earlier two posts was to say that:

* EVERYBODY considers economics when they contemplate marriage. If they don't, they are not very smart (IMO). I doubt many people enter into marriage expecting to grow poorer.

* The fact that a RW places their profile on an agency site does NOT mean they are PRINCIPALLY interested in economic gain - any more than it does when an AW (or a German woman or a Fijian woman) places their profiles on a site seeking an introduction.

I guess it comes down to discernment of motivation. When someone is motivated PRINCIPALLY by anticipated financial gain and is willing to compromise morals and integrity, that is a shameful situation. Can it be reasonably posited that RW who post profiles on agency sites fall into that category? As a general statement, it does not seem reasonable to me - and I have had the opportunity to meet, and get to know, quite a number of women who were listed on agency sites at one time or another.

That Andrew makes that argument, says as much about him, than about the subjects of his 'theory.'

- Dan

[Lit_1nce]

Heres my take on this..

A prostitute has price point where the deal can be made, regardless of their personal feelings about the "purchaser"

There are people who will not accept just any person regardless of the money thrown at the problem. I would say that these people are not prostitutes.. and that there are many of them. These people value their own feelings, wants, desires, and tastes  over the money of someone they do not wish to be with.

What are the percentages of FSU women placing ads that can be had just by reaching the "price point" ?  I don't know, but I know it's not all.. and I doubt it's most.

I think that brings up the hated term MOB.. where it is suggested that you just order it up, pay the price for your goods and take it home.

[Serebro]

This is a very odd thread.  It begins with Jack posting useful information on letter scamming.  He is then accused of being a sex tourist.   He responds in a jocular way but is disciplined by an anonymous moderator who says absolutely nothing about “Silver’s” insult.  As an aside Dan,  I am uncomfortable about anonymous moderators.  Giving someone power without accountability is open to abuse.  If MOD3 and MOD7 had posted their dubious decisions under their own sign-on names the community would have held them to account.

The thread subsequently twists to other judgemental issues like prostitution.  Then Philip defames someone I know personally – Andrew and I will not let these lies stand! This is to set the record straight.  I am not going into attack mode.  I will if you like but only in “No Holds Barred” where such arguments belong.

I didn't accuse him, I asked him that question directly as he said that he dated women for dating itself, he replied that he couldn't be a sex tourist because he is an agency owner...

That's a vague explanation.
It' s like to say: I am not a scammer because I am an agency owner.

At the same time Jack gave information on the state of things concerning prostitution in Moscow, including addresses of different sex clubs...

Neither me, who is a citizen of Russia nor Gator who lives in Russia haven't heard of them.
So why does Jack who lives in Texas know so much of them?!
and he finds it normal to date women for "the dating process itself" and corresponding with different women while having a gf whose photos he posts...

There are scam agencies, there are agencies that offer prostitutes' service, and the information that I got in this thread asking questions is much more useful than the information Jack at the beginning of the thread.

[Serebro]

The situation mirrors the use of the derogatory label “Sex Tourist”  If this includes all men who date (and have sex) with Foreign women then it applies to many members of this board. 

It's not so, it depends on the AIM you have.
For example when you date a girl, you have big plans for the future, maybe you have sex, but then it doesn't work out, it's normal.

when you meet many girls at the same time having no AIM to be married making promises you love them and will always love them and will marry them one day-it's  sex tourism.


Can you see the difference between
-dating the woman who is a virgin/has had a few men and it didn't work out

and
-dating a woman who has slept with 200 men for money?!
Will you be happy to date the woman who accepted your presents, flowers and money and the engagement ring and then explains that she just enjoys the process of dating and she has never really wanted to create a family with you?How would you call this woman?!

[Admin]

It's not so, it depends on the AIM you have.
For example when you date a girl, you have big plans for the future, maybe you have sex, but then it doesn't work out, it's normal.

when you meet many girls at the same time having no AIM to be married making promises you love them and will always love them and will marry them one day-it's  sex tourism.


Can you see the difference between
-dating the woman who is a virgin/has had a few men and it didn't work out

and
-dating a woman who has slept with 200 men for money?!
Will you be happy to date the woman who accepted your presents, flowers and money and the engagement ring and then explains that she just enjoys the process of dating and she has never really wanted to create a family with you?How would you call this woman?!

RWD has made several significant attempts to engage some of the RW in defining the term "sex tourist". None have been successful. A large part of the reason they are not successful is they always seem to come BACK to discerning intent of the actor. Nobody has been able to conclude any reasonable or accurate method for objectively discerning another's forethought and intent.

Do a search for 'sex tourist definition' and review the posts which result.

- Dan

[Serebro]

RWD has made several significant attempts to engage some of the RW in defining the term "sex tourist". None have been successful. 

Do a search for 'sex tourist definition' and review the posts which result.

- Dan

I did!!!!!
sex tourism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_tourism
"The World Tourism Organization, a specialized agency of the United Nations, defines sex tourism as "trips organized from within the tourism sector, or from outside this sector but using its structures and networks, with the primary purpose of effecting a commercial sexual relationship by the tourist with residents at the destination".[1] "
Trafficking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafficking_in_human_beings

"The main motive of a woman (in some cases an underage girl) to accept an offer from a trafficker is better financial opportunities for herself or her family. In many cases traffickers initially offer ‘legitimate’ work or the promise of an opportunity to study. The main types of work offered are in the catering and hotel industry, in bars and clubs, modeling contracts, or au pair work. Traffickers sometimes use offers of marriage, threats, intimidation and kidnapping as means of obtaining victims. In the majority of cases, the women end up in prostitution. Also some (migrating) prostitutes become victims of human trafficking. Some women know they will be working as prostitutes"

[Serebro]

Also this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution
"In sex tourism, travellers from rich countries travel to poorer countries such as Thailand in search of sexual services that may be more expensive in their own countries. Other popular sex tourism destinations are Brazil, the Caribbean, and former eastern bloc countries."

"Many women are hoodwinked into believing promises of a better life, sometimes by people who are known and trusted to them. Traffickers may own legitimate travel agencies, modeling agencies and employment offices in order to gain women's trust"
That post was made to show that even you are an owner of some agency of any kinds it can't mean automatically that you are not involved into this kind of a business/related business.
Leslie:

He is not good looking but is certainly not a sex addict

how can you know that for certain?
Sometimes you know shocking things about your neighbours you have lived all your live with...

I am not trying to offend, I make conclusions which are based on what Jack says, on his own words and his own idea of "perfect relationship" for him which is about dating for pleasure but not for marriage and then gives a list of agencies working in prostitution field.

Andrew was very critical of the MOB scene in general

Lately he became cynical and intolerant of MOB losers

Andrew had personally witnessed the stupidity of MOB tourists on countless occasions

If you persuade people that a direct question (not a statement)about being a sexual touristis an offence why do you use this term
MOB/MOB business which many women find offensive?!
Go to any RW website and call them this way and you will see the results...