Money changes everything

[timothe]

AJ wrote:
...Lets nbe brutally honest, The processes' intent ,was and is, abused to allow the typical RW scenerio discussed here..

I think your idea assumes that the intent of a huge bureaucracy
called 'government' is more important than the goals of
the individual, in a country where the individual's 'pursuit of happiness'
is of primary importance.

Why do we allow the government to govern our personal lives?
Why should the government question us about love, sex, and
family life? Marital status should not be the business of
government, in my opinion. But, I guess most of you
aren't going to question that.  ! ? ?

I'm with Photo Guy here.  As part of my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, I should be entitled to marry a foriegn woman and allow her and her children to live with me in this country.  If there are abuses to the system that are the result of this, those abuses should always be on the side of too much liberty, not too little.   

[BC]

I'm with Photo Guy here.  As part of my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, I should be entitled to marry a foriegn woman and allow her and her children to live with me in this country.  If there are abuses to the system that are the result of this, those abuses should always be on the side of too much liberty, not too little.   

I fail to see where any of the rights you mention have been harmed.

[Photo Guy]

It is the entire attitude fo the Federal government, the mentality that I am complaining about.
AJ states that the original intent of the government's K-1 visa, is abused in the typical RW engagement scenario.

I understand what he is saying. I think the present antiquated procedures and policies should be adjusted, to conform to the needs of citizens in today's world. A world of the internet, cell phones, and world travel. So I focus on his use of the word, 'abuse'.

New procedures and policies should ideally reflect the current needs.
The honest guy who is just looking for a wife, should be helped and
not hindered. The government should facilitate the pursuit of happiness.
The government should also protect the citizenry from criminal immigrants.
The government should focus on the 'overstay' problem and allow
marriages to flourish.

I wish to remind people that the government works for us. If the balance shifts
the other way, we're doomed.

[Jumper]

PG and tim-

its almost funny-  
here  I was the one clarifying the k1, its original intent,
  and showing that it was intended to allow the  average US citizens  
living abroad to meet and marry  whom they choose,
not intended for the elite.

 how you can turn that around, is beyond me?

The government certainly has a right, and a obligation
 to its citizens, to control immigration.
and to insure immigration based on marriage , is legit.
and that the immigrant  does not become a financial burden on
the current citizens.

you can , and do marry foreigners?, what rights have been violated?
 and how out of this whole thread could i have hit a nerve, while pointing out the k1 was intended for GI's?

because it  is often an abuse of its intent in the RW realm?

it is, sorry if i call it like it is,
The  system is in place to marry a non US citizen.
but they are written, and operate under the assumption ,of a US citizen living abroad and meeting and wanting to marry a non US citizen.

They were never an intended  shortcut for strangers to marry.
or for an easy way to immigrate.

As much as i despise government involvement in our lives,
i do not have any issue with our government controlling immigration, which
naturally  should include the process of marriage to a non US citizen.
if you have a legitimate relationship ,there is likely no problem in getting married to a non US-citizen..so what rights are infringed?

its exspecially odd coming from either of you, Tim who is going thru the process ,and will likely marry a non US citizen.
so where's the beef?
and PG who already used the process and did not marry,
andwhile that is allowed under itsguidelines,
that was never its intent.
its intent was to give you guys time to arrange the marriage, not to see if
you were compatible as a couple, or could adapt to the culture or situation.

but you got to use it like that, and it was a help to both of you to do so, so again where's the beef?

Now if you feel your government doesn't have any  right ,or obligation,
 to its current citizens  to a due process in granting legal immigration to some woman you just met..
then i can see your rub..
 
but i dint feel that  being born in the good ole' USA,
gives anyone the *right* to just bring anyone in as a legal immigrant.
without such due process to insure its legit.
as it stands , someone  could have met once,
 and may go thru a small interview to be questioned as to if they qualify for a FAMILY oriented visa.,and  the seriousness of their true intent to marry on a marriage visa.
 


anyway sorry for drifting this thread off topic..
my bad.



BC-
i agree with you on most all points.
and i also think the GCG phenomenon is blown out of proportion..

i will tell you ,quite plainly ,that there certainly are GCG.
While in the FSU, I was offered a decent  sum ,
to marry for immigration purposes, a stright foward business arrangement .
I know some living there, and some living  here now-
 that did, or will  marry anyone for US citizenship.
strange perhaps , but it is true..
while it may be uncommon, it it does exist.

I wasnt overly concerned about it.I doubt many men need be if they are taking time to know thier spouse to be...
 

[KenC]

People, we are now wondering way off topic which I might remind you is regarding how finances influence the pursuit of RW

[Jumper]

hey now !

it isnt some completely off topc personal insult war afterall!
 

while i did apologize for the drift..
it is simply a topic drift, and still relevent..
and Dan was participating quite a bit as well.. MrCZ boy

if money in the pursuit of RW ,GCG, the minimums required in the visa, ,
doesnt go together,
then  i dont know what does !!!!!!!!
 

 

[Eduard]

It is the entire attitude fo the Federal government, the mentality that I am complaining about.
AJ states that the original intent of the government's K-1 visa, is abused in the typical RW engagement scenario.

I understand what he is saying. I think the present antiquated procedures and policies should be adjusted, to conform to the needs of citizens in today's world. A world of the internet, cell phones, and world travel. So I focus on his use of the word, 'abuse'.

New procedures and policies should ideally reflect the current needs.
The honest guy who is just looking for a wife, should be helped and
not hindered. The government should facilitate the pursuit of happiness.
The government should also protect the citizenry from criminal immigrants.
The government should focus on the 'overstay' problem and allow
marriages to flourish.

I wish to remind people that the government works for us. If the balance shifts
the other way, we're doomed.

I've always been amazed how the federal government allows so many criminals to enter the country...I'm talking about real mafioso killers and I personally met "Vor v zakone"  -  it's a career criminal, who riched a very high status in the criminal world. Kind of like a "made" guy in Italian mafia. Met many other ex-gangsters who now live here, ride their cayenns and get a few grand a month residual income form a business in Russia...
Beeing in the Russian community and doing work with them puts me in touch with all kinds of people. And it is unbelievable how some of them made it through...
Yet they make iot so hard for young russian women to come here..what is the logic???

[Jumper]

logic?

money changes everything! 

( a very wealthy young RW will not have a visa problem? )


see KenC ?, we are back on topic .. 

[Admin]

PG and tim-

its almost funny- 
here  I was the one clarifying the k1, its original intent,
  and showing that it was intended to allow the  average US citizens 
living abroad to meet and marry  whom they choose,
not intended for the elite.

 how you can turn that around, is beyond me?

The government certainly has a right, and a obligation
 to its citizens, to control immigration.
and to insure immigration based on marriage , is legit.
and that the immigrant  does not become a financial burden on
the current citizens.

you can , and do marry foreigners?, what rights have been violated?
 and how out of this whole thread could i have hit a nerve, while pointing out the k1 was intended for GI's?

because it  is often an abuse of its intent in the RW realm?

it is, sorry if i call it like it is,
The  system is in place to marry a non US citizen.
but they are written, and operate under the assumption ,of a US citizen living abroad and meeting and wanting to marry a non US citizen.

They were never an intended  shortcut for strangers to marry.
or for an easy way to immigrate.

As much as i despise government involvement in our lives,
i do not have any issue with our government controlling immigration, which
naturally  should include the process of marriage to a non US citizen.
if you have a legitimate relationship ,there is likely no problem in getting married to a non US-citizen..so what rights are infringed?

its exspecially odd coming from either of you, Tim who is going thru the process ,and will likely marry a non US citizen.
so where's the beef?
and PG who already used the process and did not marry,
andwhile that is allowed under itsguidelines,
that was never its intent.
its intent was to give you guys time to arrange the marriage, not to see if
you were compatible as a couple, or could adapt to the culture or situation.

but you got to use it like that, and it was a help to both of you to do so, so again where's the beef?

Now if you feel your government doesn't have any  right ,or obligation,
 to its current citizens  to a due process in granting legal immigration to some woman you just met..
then i can see your rub..
 
but i dint feel that  being born in the good ole' USA,
gives anyone the *right* to just bring anyone in as a legal immigrant.
without such due process to insure its legit.
as it stands , someone  could have met once,
 and may go thru a small interview to be questioned as to if they qualify for a FAMILY oriented visa.,and  the seriousness of their true intent to marry on a marriage visa.
 


anyway sorry for drifting this thread off topic..
my bad.



BC-
i agree with you on most all points.
and i also think the GCG phenomenon is blown out of proportion..

i will tell you ,quite plainly ,that there certainly are GCG.
While in the FSU, I was offered a decent  sum ,
to marry for immigration purposes, a stright foward business arrangement .
I know some living there, and some living  here now-
 that did, or will  marry anyone for US citizenship.
strange perhaps , but it is true..
while i may be uncommon, it it does exist.

I wasnt overly concerned about it.I doubt many men need be if they are taking time to know thier spouse to be...
 

Speaking of controlling immigration - wanna see some real-time attempts at visa fraud?

Check out this page -- http://www.baraban.com/news/denver/#classifieds (need a Russian to English translation)

Here is a computer translation of one ad entitled "Деловой брак" - (translates to "Business Marriage"):

Fellow 21 yr searches for the girl of 21+/-2 years for creating the family for the form.
I am located in THE USA legally during the year, at the end of September elapse the visa, clean policy record, credit history is located (from June 2006). From you it does not be required to sign Affidavit of Support in the form of the presence of sponsor from the side. Only requirements - the citizenship OF THE USA and desire soak to young fellow in the new country. Phone: xxxxxxxxx or e-mail Me to xxxxx@yahoo.com

There are many such advertisements on that site.

- Dan

[Admin]

hey now !

it isnt some completely off topc personal insult war afterall!
 

while i did apologize for the drift..
it is simply a topic drift, and still relevent..
and Dan was participating quite a bit as well.. MrCZ boy

if money in the pursuit of RW ,GCG, the minimums required in the visa, ,
doesnt go together,
then  i dont know what does !!!!!!!!
 

 

Yeah - guilty as charged. I was pretty much following you guys around and throwing in some links/info which seemed to support it.

I figured someone would remind us (me) of the thread drift.

BTW - the stories in the War Brides link I posted earlier had some REALLY interesting articles about concern over "Gold-Diggers" back then - so in some small way, at least, it was related. Sort of.

- Dan

[Eduard]

many criminals that I've met came here on a refugee visa, claiming religious prosecution.
Supposedly pentacostal and baptist churches are somehow being prosecuted in Russia and Ukraine and thousands have been coming in for years. Most are normal hard working people, but a percentage of them were hard core criminals in Russia and Ukraine.

[mischief]

Gamblers and the unsure should head to Vegas instead of FSU.  At least in this manner disasters are limited to those truly responsible and if you get lucky you'll be that far ahead.

Don't fyck around with lives of others, especially when kids are involved.

BC, right on the spot, as usual...

[KenC]

Tom Cru, er, I mean AJ,
Did I call you out by name?  Did I say you were the only guilty party here?
 :noidea:

I really think all the government intervention stuff as well as the original War Brides act are important and intersting topics.  But topics that are better left in another thread.  Why doesn't someone start one? :noidea:

We have had over 17 pages of great information and ideas here, mostly on topic.  I was just trying to keep it going.
KenC

(AJ, you know I love ya)

[myrddin]

AJ wrote:
The fact this thread concentrates on the  practicalities ,and the justifications
for them ,should shake some new guys up if they are paying attention.
--

Speaking as a new guy (and I sure hope I'm on topic!), I have to say that I am shaken up (shook up?)  I greatly appreciate what I've learned here.

When I discovered this forum, I read and read and read (and I'm still not caught up).  My divorce left me with debt - I won't be free of it for probably 2 years, but things get significantly better every month.

My struggle is whether to delay starting my search.  Maybe for months (not for years, I can't wait that long).   I believe I could afford to visit the FSU and bring my lady to the US.  Not easily, by any means, but it might be less difficult later.  I know I can't predict all the expenses, and I am counting on future income. 

One thing I learned from my first marriage is that I can't ignore financial questions, even though love is far more important than money.  There are enough obstacles already to finding my true love.

[Curious_George]

Regarding the OK salary level:
I do not have a specific amount in mind, but a guy/gal needs to make enough to pay the bills, mortgage/rent, 401K, savings, and have at least 1/8 of his salary as disposable income/investment opportunities.

[AnastassiaAsh]

AJ wrote:
The fact this thread concentrates on the  practicalities ,and the justifications
for them ,should shake some new guys up if they are paying attention.
--

Speaking as a new guy (and I sure hope I'm on topic!), I have to say that I am shaken up (shook up?)  I greatly appreciate what I've learned here.

When I discovered this forum, I read and read and read (and I'm still not caught up).  My divorce left me with debt - I won't be free of it for probably 2 years, but things get significantly better every month.

My struggle is whether to delay starting my search.  Maybe for months (not for years, I can't wait that long).   I believe I could afford to visit the FSU and bring my lady to the US.  Not easily, by any means, but it might be less difficult later.  I know I can't predict all the expenses, and I am counting on future income. 

One thing I learned from my first marriage is that I can't ignore financial questions, even though love is far more important than money.  There are enough obstacles already to finding my true love.

If you think it will take about 2 years for you to completely get out of this debt, I would say maybe you can start this process in 1.5 years, till the time you are already together with one potential woman that debt will be paid off. I don't think it will be just for any woman if you start things right now. And I am not saying you have to completely wait till it's gone and then start....but then again, if you are in debt how will you save money for this process now? It's better to pay off the debt asap...

[myrddin]

I can tell you're giving me good advice partially because it's not something I want to hear 
Last year I (very) dramatically increased my income, and even while paying back the debt I could afford the low-medium low numbers I've seen.  But I can see that's too risky and not fair to my future bride. 

I can choose to see waiting as a sacrifice for future happiness.  But I don't have to like it   

[Lily]

The question remains how does a RW determine if the man can provide the lifestyle she would accept?

 

Just to be sure that by lifestyle we understand the same things:

Quote "In sociology, a lifestyle is the way a person lives. A lifestyle is a characteristic bundle of behaviors that makes sense to both others and oneself in a given time and place, including social relations, consumption, entertainment, and dress. The behaviors and practices within lifestyles are a mixture of habits, conventional ways of doing things, and reasoned actions. A lifestyle typically also reflects an individual's attitudes, values or worldview." (Wikipedia)

First, my opinion is that my man does not have to provide me with anything except affection and appreciation. If I want some matierial things in my life, I have to go and earn them.

Gator, it is interesting that you seem to have restricted the lifestyle to consumtion and buying expensive things. I bellieve you mean it just as a small illistration.

To me, there are a few things in a man that I cannot compromise, which I believe determine the lifestyle. These are his level of education and occupation. Our learned profession is often an essential that determines the personality that stays with us thourough the life. Income is a variable thing, my interest in his income would be probably the minimum that is required by law to file for petition.

Also, things like his house and place of living determine the lifestyle as well, because as soon as the fiancee arrives, she is supposed to share his home, his table and his bed before she became another bread earner and contributor. To answer your question how to determine the lifestyle potential, those things can be also discovered early during the acquaintance time.

[Jumper]

KenC said

Did I call you out by name?  Did I say you were the only guilty party here?

Ken -
no, you dint, i was just goofing with you , as i realized it had gotten off topic a bit.. lol
 it was quite proper t otry and keep it on topic.


So , on topic!! 

myrddn,
Nastya just gave you what i would consider very good advice.

while i have been beating the drum for the average income man(with caveats attached)
(it was more about the K1's intent, than the reality of pursuing RW)
that same man really needs to have his ducks in a row..
  I was fortunante  in that , i had a nice home and vehicle , absolutely zero debt, and no payments, had a flexible schedule (i was off injuried for 11 months,so could travel whenever
 and time to take multiple trips) as well as the additional bonus of my job being  in europe for several months of each year back then, and on thru our courtship,  so  i was often already quite near Ukraine ( based out of czech rep )A lot of things to help out in this scenerio, and one of the reasons i considered it.
hopefully this isnt taken as bragging, as i made a whopping 5 k the year i met my wife due to being out injuried, and it was rough, but my point in this was to show how an average income guy can have a situation that helps in this process, and that not all situations are the same.
 
 The realities of this are sobering,  keep your head straight and decide if its viable..
 
 

[Daveman]

Lily, you are simply an amazing woman. What else can I say? Great post

[Jumper]

Lily, nice post-
and always a refreshing view on the world.
it's impossible for me to believe you  are not married

 

[Gator]

Lily,

Yes, lifestyle is how you have defined it.  It is based on more than income, such as his circle of family and friends hopefully will be people who you find interesting and receptive.  Entertainment,  hobbies and interests are not necessarily dependent upon income unless you like to play polo and need several ponies to do that.  Even material things such as a house can be  considered independent of income because it is not the size of the house that matters but the happiness within the home. 

But this goes back to the example stated earlier.  How many RW would be happy living in a 30-year old motor home and working two jobs to be able to feed the children?

Lily, you are willing and able to earn your own money without having to take care of children.  Not all RW have that freedom, at least not at first, and they must depend upon their man until they start making her own income.  Will he be a good provider?  A good mentor?

A man can visit his RW in her hometown and see how she lives, meet her friends, talk to her family, etc.  Few RW can see how the man lives before deciding about marriage.  They must depend upon his words, his actions, and their own intuition.  Not exactly equal footing.

[Daveman]

Ah, you are mixing things up so badly, Daveman    What some of the ladies trade up for 'Love' is not 'living with parents in a two room flat, working 10+ hrs a day, 6 days a week', but the possibility of living in a $1.5 mil. house, driving a Ferrari, shopping weekends in Paris, Milan or London by not marrying a millionaire. Had they waited more, that millionaire surely would have come. I hope you can see and understand that this is a real sacrifice and their husbands should duly componsate them for it 

LoL!! Yes, I finally see the light and admit the error of my dastardly ways! Now I comprehend the situation with great clarity!! 

Anastasia, I'm calm (you know I adore you) .. and I know having the financial wherewithal to pull this process off is absolutely important.  And of course I have nothing against successful couples meeting and both bringing their successes to the table.  However, in Russia (as well as America) how many are truly "successful" to such a level?? It just seems absurd to think that a woman would pass up on a really great guy, love, children, etc., when she is alone, probably will remain alone in many cases, and certainly there are not an overwhelming number of available, "interested in marriage with her" FSU guys who could provide even half of what we are discussing in this thread.

So, if an FSU lady would in fact prefer to marry a local guy (who most likely could not provide her with the same lifestyle as a 40k earner here) why in the world do the "rules" change so drastically with a WM? A nice life is a nice life... I have sure had one and I grew up in a house that cost $14,600 (bought in 1965 of course) sold for $60,000 in 1992, worth maybe $85,000 or so now. A great place to live and I had a spectacular childhood living by the means of a career enlisted military man (retired SGM). He wouldn't have come close to the financial minimums we are discussing here, but life was truly fabulous in our family.

So I guess what I am asking here is truly is, why do the rules for "happiness" seem to change drastically with international marriage? I think it's a valid question which could use some serious input.  If money changes everything, why exactly is that?

Dave

[Faux Pas]

If you think it will take about 2 years for you to completely get out of this debt, I would say maybe you can start this process in 1.5 years, till the time you are already together with one potential woman that debt will be paid off. I don't think it will be just for any woman if you start things right now. And I am not saying you have to completely wait till it's gone and then start....but then again, if you are in debt how will you save money for this process now? It's better to pay off the debt asap...

Dave excuse me but I want to "one up'ya"

Anastassia you didn't answer my previous post to you on this question but you still seem to insist that happiness is equated to income in these international relationships. I think you are wrong. Certainly some men will dangle the money carrot and some women will respond. But the essence here is that we are both looking for love. Money does matter, but at what cost and to what point? When money becomes the trump of love in an international match, what is the point? Most AM face this on a daily basis with AW. I do recognize your need to help and lead your contemporaries . But be advised when you put them on the same footing as AW they will be responded to the same as AW by AM. I can't speak for every AM but my drive is to find a lady that seeks love and money be damned.

[BC]

Dave excuse me but I want to "one up'ya"

Anastassia you didn't answer my previous post to you on this question but you still seem to insist that happiness is equated to income in these international relationships. I think you are wrong. Certainly some men will dangle the money carrot and some women will respond. But the essence here is that we are both looking for love. Money does matter, but at what cost and to what point? When money becomes the trump of love in an international match, what is the point? Most AM face this on a daily basis with AW. I do recognize your need to help and lead your contemporaries . But be advised when you put them on the same footing as AW they will be responded to the same as AW by AM. I can't speak for every AM but my drive is to find a lady that seeks love and money be damned.

Faux,

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/35097/top_reasons_people_divorce.html and other resources place financial difficulties as one of the top divorce drivers, or at least places stress on relationships that may break the camel's back. 

Sure, money will not create a permanent happy marriage, but it should provide a foundation to flourish.  At least consider it good fertilizer.

As far as airlines go, those two bags weigh 20 kg but as it regards a relationship they weigh tons.

Stresses revolving around international marriages are in addition to those found in normal marriages.

Seek love and money be damned is right.  Luckily we had enough to do just that.  The only looser was the bank's profits as our savings account dwindled while traveling, improving our home, a few visits back to RU, a new baby and supporting visits from in-laws. - Not to mention a good deal of time spent not actively earning a living in order to have more time getting settled in together.

I can imagine the feeling my wife would have had if I were forced to say, No.. we can't afford for you to visit back home or for your parents to come here.  No, we can't afford to spend a few grand to outfit a baby room, -in fact we can't even afford a baby. No, your new clothes will have to wait until we pay off the credit cards we used for your tickets.  And no, we can't go to the amusement park this weekend because I'm working OT to make sure we can pay the second mortgage I took out to try a few socials and pay the agencies to find you in the first place.