I'm still not convinced! The official stats just don't make sense!

[Eduard]

Eduard: Read Serebro's posts up thread twice or thrice.

I/O

I/O thanks for your advice. I tryed reading 3 times as per your suggestion, but my eyes kept slipping left to Serebro's avatar and I could never seem to finish reading what she wrote...maybe I have some medical condition?
Anyway, What does your wife think on the subject?

[Eduard]

Ed, if you don't believe there's a 1 to 1 ratio of women to men, then you need to call the Russian government a liar for putting out the statistics. Us guys here just repeat what we read from the most reliable sources out there.

Of course us men are going to see more women when we're in the FSU. Not many of us have a habit of staring at other men.

Also, more RW tend to be walking around the time us tourists walk around while the RM work, some long hours and after work, they don't tend to go shopping, visit attractions or walk in the park like RW and tourists do.

Maybe more RW are available because some RM don't want RW. Here's a business idea for you.

http://nvo.com/danikon/gayrussia2001tour/

Hey Bill,
personally I never trusted the government during the Soviet era or now. Actually what has changed? same people are in power. Are you trying to get me wacked??? Look what happened to Politkovskaya when she called the government a liar! No let's just be good boys and believe everything the Russian goverment gives us, including the stats.
In regard to your "Also, more RW tend to be walking around the time us tourists walk around..." the key word is "tourists". I wouldn't consider myself a tourist when I go to Russia. I'm in my native environment there and probably see things for what they are not what a tourist sees.

[Eduard]

Eduard,

You are correct! 

The others at RWD are not aware of Russia's darkest secret that 80% of Russian men are homosexual, thus yielding an effective ratio of women:men::5:1. 

The Russian government propaganda machine works overtime to repress this truth about the predominance of Blue Boys.  The fact also explains why Russia's birth rate is so low.

I see the light!!! Ali, you are the man! that explains everything!

[Eduard]

Bingo! This is exactly the feeling of my wife. It is not that there were no men in her town, there were plenty and quite a few were interested in her, but these are not the type of men she would ever consider getting married to. These men wanted to be married; they wanted a maid, cook, and a Mamma to look after them. They were guys that had a hard time holding onto a job and an even harder time holding onto a paycheck. Some have problems with alcohol, some have problems managing their tempers, some have problems with both. These guys are invisible to women looking for a good husband, and apparently are invisible to you too. Just because they are undesirable doesn't mean they are not there.

I'm glad that you didn't mention drugs...otherwise it was starting to sound like you were discribing some of the AM that I've seen.

[Eduard]

The perception comes from discounting the existence of those not deemed "worthy" as if they didn't exist. Russian census (or American for that matter) isn't biased against peoples looks/status/mental state. It counts all heads in Russia, not just the pretty ones.

To illustrate a point, here's a lovely 39 yr old Muscavichka looking for her other half

Would you honestly travel half way around the world for this woman when this 39yr old lady is also seeking a husband right in your hometown area?


How about if all you could find in your town who was interested in you was this 39 yr old


Would that entice you to consider going to Sevastopol to meet this one


The women in pictures one and three are no less marriage minded than two and four, but they'll probably have a much more difficult time attracting the Prince Charming of their fairytale dreams.

To be fair, here's two 39 yr old guys, is #1 really less marriage minded than #2? Who do you think has a better shot at finding the Russian lady of their dreams?




_{NOTE: Pictures 1 & 4 are from bride.ru all others from okcupid.com}

the thing is that a bold, nurdy looking guy here in the US wouldn't stand a chance with a pretty younger woman, but in Russia I see plenty of couples where a guy looks like your bold fellow and the woman he's with is a beautiful, model looking girl 6 inches taller than him. I personally think that RW are not as picky as AW in regard to men's looks. It is so hard to get a good family oriented RM that many beautiful women would definitely go with the guy like your boldy. Here in the US he would be lucky if woman #3  would give him a shot...

[Serebro]

Nice photos, Jet!!!
As for me I don't like either the first man or the second one.

The first one looks suspicious and as for the second one he just looks too light minded and probably has too many girls in his local city/town, he has met a RW somewhere like a bar or a local shop and that made him decide to try his luck abroad, it's more like a game for him.

Eduard

the thing is that a bold, nurdy looking guy here in the US wouldn't stand a chance with a pretty younger woman, but in Russia I see plenty of couples where a guy looks like your bold fellow and the woman he's with is a beautiful, model looking girl 6 inches taller than him. I personally think that RW are not as picky as AW in regard to men's looks. It is so hard to get a good family oriented RM that many beautiful women would definitely go with the guy like your boldy. Here in the US he would be lucky if woman #3  would give him a shot...

I agree, but it may also depend on how much money the first man has

[ScottinCrimea]

I think everyone is missing the point here.  It's not about the quantity of women or men, it's about the quality.  Cetainly I can find many women to date here in the US, but few meet my expectations.  The same in the FSU.  There are many available men, but not as many meet the expectations of the FSUW.  That's what happens when men in the US discover FSUW.  Before, they thought they had no choice but to accept the qualities of AW, but when they discover FSUW, they see that they don't need to settle for less than what they desire as far as attitudes, etc.  The same with FSUW.  Once they discover that there are men out there who have a different attitude about marriage, family, etc.,they have a hard time accepting the average FSUM.

I think Eduard is wrong when he states that there are 8 women to every available man in the FSU.  He would do better to explain the differences in attitudes between the average AM vs the average RM and the average RW vs the average AM.

I had a long talk with my wife on this subject.  She doesn't see the absolute numbers as relevant.  What she sees as a bottom line is that there are more good men in America and there are more good women in the FSU so there is an imbalance that drives the MOB process.  By good men/women she means those who are more marriage minded and devoted to family above all else.

Quoting a number such as 8 available women to very one man in the FSU is wrong unless you explain exactly what is meant by that number.

Having said that, I must say that I have met MANY FSUM who don't fit this generalization and are the best family men you could hope for.  I have also met MANY AM who don't fit the generalization and are only interested in arm candy, not family.  Unfortunately,, there seems to be an inordinate number of men searching in the FSU who fit this description.  That is where the train wrecks occur, when the FSUW doesn't realize that the man they have known for two weeks isn't the typical AM or the AM doesn't take the time to learn that his FSUW isn't the typical FSUW as portrayed by the agencies.

So eduard, quit your crusade and start thinking a little deeper.

[Jet]

I think everyone is missing the point here.  It's not about the quantity of women or men, it's about the quality.  Cetainly I can find many women to date here in the US, but few meet my expectations.  The same in the FSU.  There are many available men, but not as many meet the expectations of the FSUW. 

Quoting a number such as 8 available women to very one man in the FSU is wrong unless you explain exactly what is meant by that number.

This is exactly the point I was trying to get across, it isn't that they're not there, it's that there are many that are simply unacceptable to the people doing the searching. It's not about how many people are available, or even the attitudes of those people (marriage minded or not) it's about how many "acceptable" choices the people doing the searching "feel" they have. All the photos I posted earlier in this thread are real people interested in real relationships, right now. You can see by some of the responses so far that several of the photos have already been taken out of the running without knowing a single thing about personality, lifestyle, or anything else.

[Lily]

This is exactly the point I was trying to get across, it isn't that they're not there, it's that there are many that are simply unacceptable to the people doing the searching. It's not about how many people are available, or even the attitudes of those people (marriage minded or not) it's about how many "acceptable" choices the people doing the searching "feel" they have. 

Agree. We have to handle both a natural disposition of the genders plus some Russia-spefic issues.

A natural picture looks the this. Males have been created by nature as objects of maximal risk. That means, male gender supplies risk takers, all kind of anomalies, good and bad ones, geniuses and dummies, criminals, etc. Males take all the shots of life first, they struggle, win and die. Men are those who is able to climb the social ladder, but they are also those who falls down, if they are not strong enough. Therefore, here we have a layer split where some strong men climb to the upper scale, some stay in the middle, and some go down in life due to weakness, sickness, not being smart enough.

Females however, were created by nature as very risk averse people. No need to explain why. Women tend to be in a golden middle, they are seldom career makers, but they also don't have lots of chances to fall down the social ladder. Less risk, less win. A middle class woman is very likely to stay within her social standing all her life, just where she belongs at time of her birth. Here we have a fairly constant split where many women are in the middle of social hierarchy, a few are on top, a few are on the bottom.

Now may I draw your attention at another natural thing, similarly equal for all nations. Most women want to mate up, not mate down. That means that many women would accept a man that stands higher on the social ladder. Some even reject their equals, wanting the top only. Men however seem to pay less attention to the woman's standing, being more sensitive to her personal beauty and age, the things that are not class-related.

To this natural picture, we have to apply Russian specifics. Everything is amplified here to its extreme points. Life conditions in Russia are rather tough, therefore the struggle of men for life is more harsh. The strongest and fittest only go to top. Few men manage to stay in the golden middle. Unfortunately, many men go down, die, became sick.. They just don't survive.

Now if we remember that women want to marry up and only up, we see many women doing more or less okay, and a few number of eligible men.

Here we have it - the census numbers are quite equal, but there are just amazingly few eligible men!

[tim 360]

An excellent post Lily.

Take Lily for example.  I don't know her at all but she seems like a very attractive, intelligent lady with a good heart.  If she were here in the USA many good guys would be standing in line to meet her.  However, she is living in Moscow and searching for a suitable guy.  Which would seem to me it is slim pickings for her in Moscow. I could be wrong, but I don't think her expectations are that grand.  Like she's not looking for a guy with Brad Pitt looks and a Bill Gates wallet.  Her criteria are probably very reasonable and yet...she is still looking.  Numbers?

[Misha]

A middle class woman is very likely to stay within her social standing all her life, just where she belongs at time of her birth. Here we have a fairly constant split where many women are in the middle of social hierarchy, a few are on top, a few are on the bottom.

Now may I draw your attention at another natural thing, similarly equal for all nations. Most women want to mate up, not mate down. That means that many women would accept a man that stands higher on the social ladder. Some even reject their equals, wanting the top only.

Now if we remember that women want to marry up and only up, we see many women doing more or less okay, and a few number of eligible men.

Here we have it - the census numbers are quite equal, but there are just amazingly few eligible men!

I agree wholeheartedly with Lily. If women eagerly wanted to marry men who were unemployed, or men living in villages, or alcoholics, or drug addicts or the physically abusive and a host of other men that are not deemed very highly on the social ladder, then whole MOB in the FSU would dry up tomorrow.

Another point to keep in mind is that the men that are high up on the social ladder are equally picky. They don't want just any woman. They invariably will want a very young and a very attractive woman, preferably without children. As such, you will have women looking for men higher on the social scale, and those men will not be interested in them for a variety of reasons. Likewise, a lot of men won't be able to find any women because of their social status (i.e. their lower social status).

It is this disconnect that leads women to say there aren't any eligible men and large numbers of men in certain regions of Russia who will complain that there aren't any women for them to marry.

[ISORW]

Seems to me it's both numbers and what the quality.  There is *not* an even distribution of men and women either in the US or FSU - it is skewed about 1% on each side if I remember correctly the last time I checked.  If we assume that the FSU has 100 million people and 50.5 % are women and 49.5% are men that may be nearly 1:1 but in the end it means there will be 1% of the 100 million who will not have a match - approximately 1 million women to be exact.  Eliminate 1/2 due to age (too old) and we still have 500,000 who cannot match up with a man if we matched up every man  and woman together.  Now, out of that 500,000, because of the quality of women in the FSU, we have a huge pool of women who are available and if only 5% of them would consider a foreign man that gives us 25,000 women who would consider marrying a foreigner.  That's how I see it.

[Eduard]

Good post Lily, makes sense. And I totally agree, a girl like Lily would ba a hot comodoty here where I live. Guys would be trying to pick her up anywhere she goes. They are always on the prowl. you can spot them so easy...they are all dressed up and have this "look" Lily would make a prfect target for them!
When I'm in Russia, it's the opposite...women are on the prowl all dressed up

[Gator]

Now if we remember that women want to marry up and only up, we see many women doing more or less okay, and a few number of eligible men.

The question remains if her strange man from a strange land is indeed a step up. 

BTW, Lily, splendid analysis.

[Misha]

The question remains if her strange man from a strange land is indeed a step up. 

BTW, Lily, splendid analysis.

Many (most?) women from the FSU would probably say no, but enough women do think it is the case to fuel the MOB business. However, it would be interesting to know if there is a decline in women interested in going the MOB route.

[Lily]

Good post Lily, makes sense. And I totally agree, a girl like Lily would ba a hot comodoty here where I live. Guys would be trying to pick her up anywhere she goes. They are always on the prowl. you can spot them so easy...they are all dressed up and have this "look" Lily would make a prfect target for them!

May I respectfully disagree with you Ed. They wouldn't. Proven fact. 

If and when I'd be in the States, I would ask RWD to teach me how do I approach men in real, offline America. 

By the way, would Canadian men behave similarly to U.S. men as you suggest it towards me?

[groovlstk]

If and when I'd be in the States, I would ask RWD to teach me how do I approach men in real, offline America. 

By the way, would Canadian men behave similarly to U.S. men as you suggest it towards me?

Lily, you wouldn't have to bother with approaching men in the US or Canada, they'd be following you around like puppy dogs

[Blues Fairy]

Some even reject their equals, wanting the top only.

And yet there are a few who will readily downshift if they find a man who answers their need for an intelligent and kind companion.  Not too many of such up there, on the top of the ladder.

[Gator]

And yet there are a few who will readily downshift if they find a man who answers their need for an intelligent and kind companion.  Not too many of such up there, on the top of the ladder.

The antonyms of "intelligent" and "kind" are "stupid" and "brutal."  So that is what it takes for a man to get to the top in Russia?

I can understand why you in particular would find most men stupid.     However, the "brutal" part?  I can not imagine you not being able to hold your own, unless you are saying that you could but prefer serenity.

[Jet]

Lily, you wouldn't have to bother with approaching men in the US or Canada, they'd be following you around like puppy dogs

Agreed, during the first 8 weeks my Liliya was in the US she accumulated a stack of business cards from guys who stopped her on the street that was over 5cm thick. She said it was faster and easier to get rid of them by just saying "thank you" and putting the card in her purse. Initially she tried explaining to each one that she was  engaged to be married very soon, but then they would spend 15 minutes trying to convince her how much better, richer, and romantic they were than her mystery fiance (me) so she eventually switched tactics. There is no doubt in my mind that RWDs Lily would experience the same. Now, how "marriage minded" these guys would be is open for debate, but they would certainly be falling all over themselves trying to secure a date 

[Blues Fairy]

The antonyms of "intelligent" and "kind" are "stupid" and "brutal."  So that is what it takes for a man to get to the top in Russia?
I can understand why you in particular would find most men stupid.     However, the "brutal" part?  I can not imagine you not being able to hold your own, unless you are saying that you could but prefer serenity.

Being able to fend for oneself and preference for serenity are not necessarily mutually exclusive things.   One Taoist sees another Taoist from the distance of many li.   

[turniptruck]

Lily, you wouldn't have to bother with approaching men in the US or Canada, they'd be following you around like puppy dogs

TBH, if I saw her on the street or casually I wouldn't consider talking to her.  She would be way over my league

I would suggest if any FSUW gets to the US but not by marriage, to not ignore online sites even if they do reflect overall social patterns.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/HookingUp/Story?id=1008400&page=1

"Of Match.com's 15 million members around the world, 59 percent are men and 41 percent are women, and other dating sites have similar demographic splits. "

I do think that this reflects trends of how open the sexes are for relationships, in the US at anyrate.  I've also seen others claim that the percentage of men in the US is higher than the 59 she quotes.

[Simoni]

May I respectfully disagree with you Ed. They wouldn't. Proven fact. 

Lily, I'll have to agree with Ed and Groove and Gator.   You would have men falling all over themselves to meet you here in the US! :-)

[alantodd]

Lily, AW from where I live will ask a guy out if they see a man they like.  They do not wait on the man to do it.  Not many good men in their eyes.  This is probably not normal for most Russian women to ask a man out.  Most very good AM are married by 28 years of age.  The next best option of a good man tends to be divorced with kids.  So AW have limited options as well once they hit 30 years old.

In Milwaukee I know a couple of AW here who have married Russian men who are in the construction business.  

My point is once a women hits 30 she has very low odds to marry a very good man no matter what country she lives.  A man who is 40 years plus can marry a very good women if he has a lot of money or takes advantage of a poorer society.  The reason AM over 40 years old swarm to Russia from 1997-2005.  Since 2005 the age gap has decreased a lot since younger women do not want a huge age gap as Russia economy has improved.

  

[Eduard]

May I respectfully disagree with you Ed. They wouldn't. Proven fact. 

If and when I'd be in the States, I would ask RWD to teach me how do I approach men in real, offline America. 

By the way, would Canadian men behave similarly to U.S. men as you suggest it towards me?

lily, you can disagree with me all you want, respectfully or direspectfully  but trust me, where I live in Tampa bay there is an incredible shortage of single, good looking, intelligent, down to earth and family oriented women. You would have so many  choices that you might want to stay single and just date and have fun. That's what most single, good looking women do here. They are the players here just like men are players in Russia.
I must remark that it's not the same everywhere in the USA. It is easier to meet a good woman in some other parts of the country than here, where I live. When I was single and looking I had membership on match.com for a couple of years. The only women that I would consider dating and actually responded to me "hello" were from other states. We chatted, liked each other but they had their careers, i had mine and nobody wanted to get it to the next level because of that. And the choices that I had locally were just horrible...