On Line Dating Sites

[Misha]

I always used was to be very suspicious of anyone who claimed they had no cellular phone and no e-mail access (anywhere). 

The odds of a woman not having any phone (land or cell) or not being to have any access to the internet is pretty close to zero. It is possible to get cell phones even in some of the most remote small Russian villages and if you get the right plan foreigners can call you at no charge to you.

[mac1165]

3. Guys who get trapped into prolonged writing campaigns via agency translators are asking to be skinned.  Why not just save the romantic letters and buy a ticket?

I agree.  It is far more important to let the lady know up front that you're serious about coming to see her.  Otherwise, she won't take you seriously.  Write a few letters, call her a few times, then get on the plane.  I've run across far too many men through our agency who had no true intention beyond letter writing.  They write letter after letter (sporadically at best), don't bother calling, and still expect the lady to be interested in them.

In conference with clients, I stress the fact that until you meet these ladies in person, that all bets are off in her devotion to you.  It's entirely possible that she might even have a boyfriend while she's writing you.  Maybe she's not serious with him, but a letter writing campaign alone is no reason to drop him.

I began writing letters to my wife Olya in September, sent plenty of current photos, and spoke with her on the phone once a week.  I met her in December.  3 months and I'm there.  She later said that this was what impressed her the most about my devotion to her. 3 months later I'm back to see her again and we're engaged.  If it's right, you do your homework, and aren't blinded by her beauty, the same scenario is entirely possible for practically anyone.  Remember, you've got to want it and be willing to take action. 

[Ronnie]

If the lady is on her own with a child to support, money for internet cafe fees just isn't there.  It's not question of know how, but one of economics, especially when she realizes that most men don't come for a visit. 

If a WM wants to engage in a letter writing amusement, she should not be espected to subsidize his fantasy.  Cell phones are expensive and still a luxury.  My wife took her sister a cell phone last year.  Her sister is in her early 50s.  Scammer?  I dated two doctors who didn't own cell phones..  Scammers?  How far does an income of $200 per month stretch when food and shelter take all of that?

OTOH, I did meet a gal whose best friend owned an Audi and a cell phone.  She WAS and pro scammer.

[roykirk]

If the lady is on her own with a child to support, money for internet cafe fees just isn't there.  It's not question of know how, but one of economics, especially when she realizes that most men don't come for a visit. 

If a WM wants to engage in a letter writing amusement, she should not be espected to subsidize his fantasy.  Cell phones are expensive and still a luxury.  My wife took her sister a cell phone last year.  Her sister is in her early 50s.  Scammer?  I dated two doctors who didn't own cell phones..  Scammers?  How far does an income of $200 per month stretch when food and shelter take all of that?

OTOH, I did meet a gal whose best friend owned an Audi and a cell phone.  She WAS and pro scammer.

Well, I should also note that I was very specific in the women I looked for, specific enough that I felt there was little reason they shouldn't have either a cell phone and/or access to the Internet.  No children, college graduate, over 25, full time job.  Apparently I was pretty accurate because only one person in that group claimed to not have a cellular phone.  Technically it wasn't even that she didn't have a cell phone.  She said she did but that she couldn't receive calls so there was no point in her giving me the number.  *But* she could call me anytime she wanted.  Talk about making no sense.

[ambach123]

I have the same requirements as Roykirk has except I insist that they be never married before and over 29. I write a few letters and then call them.

I am also paying several agencies for making direct contacts with the ladies who like me and I like them; about $100 for each such successful contact, sort of personal matchmaking.

When I have ten such contacts I will take a trip. At this time I am concentrated in East Ukraine, around Kiev. I am up to three in about two months.

It is not an easy pursuit, that is for sure; also maintaining a telephone conversation in English is also sometimes problematic. I also write to them as to when I would call them.

Also the time it takes for them to respond to your email may also be a barometer of the interest they have in you; if they are interested they would respond quickly.

I am not sure if this is the best approach; but I am open to suggestions.

[roykirk]

$100 per contact seems a bit steep, but I've never tried any sort of personal matchmaking, so maybe it's worth it.  What each person is willing to or can afford to pay in this pursuit is very much a personal thing. 

The English ability thing is often referenced, and I think it's one of the most important things to consider.  My girlfriend has conversational ability in English if I'm sitting right in front of her, but talking on the telephone over what is often a scratchy line with an annoying echo can be tricky.  We talk almost daily on the phone, but rarely for more than 10 minutes each time because it's tough on both of us.  Mostly we resort to ICQ, where we spend a couple of hours a day talking.  If she had anything less than conversational English ability, it would be *very* problematic.  And yes, I'm also an investor in Rosetta Stone as I try to learn some Russian.   

[ambach123]

When you calculate the costs involved in searching, it would appear to be over $100 per prospect, if you did it on your own, plus the time spent in a letter writing campaign. I think subcontracting that to a professional may be a good idea.

The biggest problem I faced was that so few of the ladies responded, and of those that did, many were form letters, I found it tough to get beyond that. In personal matchmaking someone acts as your agent, and would convey you in the best light, one to one.

However I would think that out of the ten meetings, I would be successful enough to go back to see one or more of them a second time.

I am planning for first visit of one week, a second visit two months later for another week. That is a total expense of about 8 to 10 K before you get anywhere. I have noticed some people here who have spent much more.

[tim 360]

ambach, a "matchmaker" can only do so much for you.  I hate to say this but most RW's will respect you for being "the man" and not needing someone to represent you.  To some that in and of itself could be seen as a character weakness.  Weak men don't fly there.

If your response rate is as poor as you say then you should take an honest appraisial as to why???  There is a reason.  You might query some of the OMB's here via PM and get some input about your low response rate which your profile is receiving.  Get their opinions.  Maybe it needs a polishing?  Or maybe your profile has one big no-no which you don't realize.  Like you are wearing a pink shirt.

One last thing.  A very serious RW who wants to marry and is interested in you is going to have a gizzillion questions for you and will be quite blunt and pointed.  You will get exhausted answering them.  If you are not getting blunt questions, she may not be too interested.  If what she writes is all warm and fuzzy look for an exit.  And the best communication is direct.  You can always hire your own translator and there are good ones who are members here.  Its all about ball control.  If you can control the ball you can win the game.  If you hire someone else to control the ball for you...who knows?
Most Rw's with Ok written English will not perform as well with spoken English.  You will normally find more confusion in telephone spoken English than written. 

[Eduard]

Well, after a 2 year hiatus from RW (both searching, and RWD) - And foolishly giving it another go with AW (you'd think I'd learn by now!?)  I'm now back in the FSU saddle -

I was going to do some sort of twisted grand (re)entrance here... but honestly, "starting over" has me feeling a bit humbled - and I'll even confess, I'm a tad bit confused too - Hence me sneaking in a post here and in the n00bie section - b/c for all practical purposes, what I learned 3-6 years ago... simply does not apply today (or 90% of it doesn't - so it seems)... and am indeed, a newbie (again)...

Either way, it's obvious things in the FSU (esp, Belarus/Ukraine) have changed allot in regards to agencies - and the "women" involved...

Not even sure where to begin? - so - let's start with the age old question posed in this thread - "Online sites/Agencies" - Ya know, I've asked this question 100 times over the years - and it always gets mixed answers and reviews - Conclusion? There is no ONE agency that fits the bill or that is perfect - The only common theme (read as "truth") I've gleened - is stay away from AnastasiasWeb - and avoid token sites - Which I've done since Day 1 -Other than that - There are a handful of good ones... but just watch your wallet - closely.

That said, after reading all the mostly positive reviews on RWD about E/M's, I finally bit the bullet, and signed with Elena's Models... I jumped on their "Easter Special" ($89) - and while I'm only a few days into it all... (FWIW, I had been "signed up" for years) - but now, as a paying Gold Member - I could do a little more digging - and actually start kicking the tires some... and wow... what an eye-opening experience it's been thus far...

And don't get me wrong, what I'm about to express frustration over, is NOT E/M's fault... but really, just more proof that this "industry" and the women who play in it - has changed ohhhhh so much!

Point being - I eagerly scrolled through my list of "matches" - and started firing off "expression of interest" (EOI's) to several ladies I'd "met" before I became a full member, as well as some new hotties that were jumping off the page at me    Well, 2-5-7 days later - "You've got mail!" - Great! Let's lock and load - and get ready to roll! Buzzzzzzzzzzzz! Wrong! - I open my E/M inbox just to find - reject - reject - reject - after reject! Wow!?! Now, before you say, "We'll, you're a few years older now, etc. etc. etc." - I originally set my profile up in 2005 - and have just let it sit the past 2-3 years... So it has same pix and intro etc - But "back then" my inbox was swamped - and got a ton of EOI's letters... And now? LOL!!  I think there's ONE gal that is even of remote interest to me........ and even then.... I'm starting to wonder if I've made the right/wrong choice here....  :noidea:

[Deep Breath] - Look, I know it's only been several days - and I know this is a lifelong process (and I'm trying hard to remind myself of this) and to be patient as well!!! But it's clear that the inbox of bogus letters I receive daily from 4RussianWomen.com and AWeb and select few others - are simply pure BS - Just to get my coin - (I think we all already knew this) - but that sting of confirmation/affirmation - well - it kinda bites!! LOL! 

Lastly - and nothing personal against agencies/agency owners - but really - Over the past few months, I've jumped on some pure Russian dating sites (non-English) (LuckyLovers/AnutaLove.ru/and a new one, TAU2) - and the people that choose to interact with me, are typically 35 and above - with kiddos - AND are *not* "Elena's Models" (by ANY stretch of the imagination!!) LMAO! - All those "22 year old hotties" that were buzzing my inbox 3-4 years ago? Well, they're all mysteriously MIA now...? Hmmmm! Or the handful of 24-28 year olds that do reply - seem to have a strong interest in shopping in Milan, and traveling to Tahiti! - Plus all their pix are of far off exotic vacation villas! (and bedrooms!) LOL!  So, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to sort that one out -

Point being (was there a point??)  I was just going to do what I call a "wing-it" trip to Ukraine in May - Fly into Kiev or Odessa, and then hop over to Kherson and Nik - but realized I needed (or would probably be better) if I started some up front communications before arriving in a few months.... Well, that lead me down the "agency" path again - And tried (or am trying) to plug in with some local agencies to "assist" - Most have been receptive - Others (like in Moldova??) were promising me the moon - when I was planning to be in BFE UA - so - not sure how they planned to hand-hold me there?? - Either way - I came back to THE source here at RWD - and perused the boards seeking any new info.... General concensus was Elena's - or a mass mail campaign with one of the biggies - or a one on one trip with JB etc - I think just from the standpoint of "ease" - I wimped out, and took the easy route (for now) and signed with Elena's - Just to discover they really don't service any other city in Ukraine other than Kiev.... Not that I have anything against Kiev - but as just mentioned - was really hoping to spend more time south and east and maybe even trek into DNK, Zap and Crimea... (actually, the only 2 I have that have responded thus far - are from Crimea) - So, not really sure how that would work? - and/or - if any of you are currently with E/M's - maybe you can offer some insite as to how I could make that work??

Anyway - Frustration, combined with my quest for knowledge - coupled with my need to VENT! :burnedup: has lead me back here... I know there are a handful that are probably not so thrilled to see me back online ... and that's cool... can't please everyone... But do hope some of the few friendships formed here over the years can be rekindled - as I take the 1000 foot dive from the UA cliff here soon!

Other than that - Have a nice day!! :-)

Cheers to everyone -

Back in the saddle- Yeehaw!

KB

Here is a perspective from a man who did find his wife in the FSU, who also happened to be born and raised there and who spends 2-3 months out of the year in Russia and furthermore helps other WM find good, solid RW.
1. by limiting your search to marriage agencies who market FSU women to foreigners you are greatly reducing your chances of finding what you are looking for. From my personal observations I see that there are roughly 10 million women advertising on Russian internet sites. How many women are advertizing through agencies? I don't have the exact numbers, but from what I heard the biggest agencies boast 25,000 I think? Please forgive me, I don't have the exact numbers, they might be a bit more or less, but I'm using them to make a point.
I estimate that at most there would be a 100,000 women on all agencies combined which is only 1% of the women advertising on Russian internet. Granted we need to take in an account that a percentege of the 10 million women are not interested in a foreigner, some are there to find another woman, still married and are cheating, etc. But the scammers on agency sites would probably reduce the 100,000 number proportionately. So here it is again: You are only tapping into about 1% of the available RW market IMO.
2. On top of limiting your search to only a small percentage of available women on agency sites you've got another problem. Most WM are looking for a RW exactly the same way as you are and they are on the same websites as you sending messages to every cute girl there! So you've got a huge competition! (the following numbers are to demo my point only, I don't have the real numbers) just think, on local Russian sites a cute girl will get 3-4 messages a day, whereas on agency site the number might be 50 a day or more...

3. Yes things changed drastically in FSU in the last few years. People are no longer looking at the USA with admiration and envy. It's the opposite now actually. I think that it is still very realistic to find a good woman, a life partner in the FSU, but it takes a lot more effort and time than it was even 3-4 years ago. But if you expand your market and look for them off the beaten path (i.e. "just take a tour to Ukraine!") you can still find plenty of great, "wife material" beautiful women.
You made a statement that you think it might make more sense to first find and get to know a few women, then set up dates with them when you go there, I think that's the best way of doing this!!! If you just go without doing this preliminary work you will only be meeting professional daters and green card seekers. very little chance of meeting someone worthy IMHO.

[apple47]

   Found my wife on friendfinder.   Didn't trust the agencies and figured that since the agency would be more or less local,it would limit my possibilities anyway.


                                                      ...Larry

[groovlstk]

ambach, a "matchmaker" can only do so much for you.  I hate to say this but most RW's will respect you for being "the man" and not needing someone to represent you.  To some that in and of itself could be seen as a character weakness.  Weak men don't fly there.

Tim is correct, at least in my experience. I've found Russian women to be quite forgiving in their assessment of men's character flaws (hell, my wife loves me and somehow puts up with me despite my flaws, no mean achievement). However, one label you don't want to be tagged with is WEAK. It's worse even than being tagged as a G-man (greedy), and once you're placed in this category every other good quality you have is moot in her eyes.

Also, do you really want to outsource something as important as this to a third party? Like others have pointed out, perhaps your introduction and methodology can use an overhaul, but if it were me I'd work on improving it rather than turning it over to someone else. 

[Simoni]

Also, do you really want to outsource something as important as this to a third party? Like others have pointed out, perhaps your introduction and methodology can use an overhaul, but if it were me I'd work on improving it rather than turning it over to someone else. 

I'll offer just the opposite advice.  First, you are not outsourcing someone selecting your girl.  Rather, you are outsourcing someone for narrowing the pool to a smaller number, say six, that you can meet and perhaps choose from.

We do this all the time in my business.  We hire a headhunter to find six good candidates.  We meet those six, and select one of them or ask for more. We don't examine the hundreds the headhunter pours over.

Works for finding women, too.   I have two friends here who are VERY happy with using a dating company here in the US to set up dates for them.  The girls are screened and you meet quality women.  There are several companies that do this; one example is "It's Just Lunch."   http://www.itsjustlunchtampa.com/

Frankly, my advice to you is too forget FSU women and stay domestic and use a company like this to arrange quality lunch dates for you.  I think you will be more successful going that route.

But if you are set on the FSU, PM me and I'll point you to several good resources in the FSU that can provide a pool of girls that are screened.   That will certainly save you time and money.

[Misha]

Tim is correct, at least in my experience. I've found Russian women to be quite forgiving in their assessment of men's character flaws (hell, my wife loves me and somehow puts up with me despite my flaws, no mean achievement). However, one label you don't want to be tagged with is WEAK. It's worse even than being tagged as a G-man (greedy), and once you're placed in this category every other good quality you have is moot in her eyes.

I agree, however, I would add that different women define weakness differently. What passes as weak and indecisive with one Russian woman, will be perfectly acceptable to another. Sometimes, it knows when to cut and run. The same is true for the "greedy" label. If any woman had complained that I was "greedy" for not spending on her, I would have dumped her right then. Sometimes being strong means knowing when to say do svidaniya!

[tim 360]

I think Simoni and Eduard make some good points too.  I think the gross #'s Eduard states are probably fairly accurate in a sense so a comprehensive "search" today can be a daunting task. 

Having your own experienced "headhunter" to qualify your candidates would be a good route to take for some.  But, not for others.  And may not be construed as a "weakness" by most RW.  Nothing wrong with hiring a little quality control. A very busy man with alot on his plate might very well opt for that service.  What works for guy A may not work for guy B. 

[groovlstk]

I'll offer just the opposite advice.  First, you are not outsourcing someone selecting your girl.  Rather, you are outsourcing someone for narrowing the pool to a smaller number, say six, that you can meet and perhaps choose from.

We do this all the time in my business.  We hire a headhunter to find six good candidates.  We meet those six, and select one of them or ask for more. We don't examine the hundreds the headhunter pours over.

Thor is probably the best example of this succeeding, having his guy Slava post ads for him and pre-screening the women before Thor met them.

It's probably just me, but while I'd have no problem w/using this tactic in business or other areas of my life, I'd never find it acceptable in romance. I made plenty of mistakes during my search but they were all mine, I was never able to fall back on blaming crooked agencies, interpreters, or guides. I like to think I was captain of my soul (or at least I had the illusion of it). 

[groovlstk]

The same is true for the "greedy" label. If any woman had complained that I was "greedy" for not spending on her, I would have dumped her right then. Sometimes being strong means knowing when to say do svidaniya!

It's been discussed here before, but the G-man label in particular is often unwarranted and is one of those few instances where cultural differences can really screw up a relationship. To some FSU women, a man who simply lives within a budget can be labelled greedy because he "counts money."

One of my wife's friends, a Belarussian girl, has been married to an American guy for 4+ years. He has his own business, which is completely dependent on the real estate market, so in the last year his income has plummeted. His wife, a shopaholic, now considers him "greedy" because he's put her on a budget, and I suspect that if she's been here for four years and doesn't understand the economics of living responsibly yet, she never will. Unless you're very well off or a gazillionaire like TigerPaws, explaining credit, salaries, budgets, and expected living standards are extraordinarily important and should be discussed at length before your girl arrives. I'd put this right up there as the #2 topic of importance in a relationship w/an FSU woman, just after all the "I love you" stuff is mutually agreed upon

[Misha]

It's been discussed here before, but the G-man label in particular is often unwarranted and is one of those few instances where cultural differences can really screw up a relationship. To some FSU women, a man who simply lives within a budget can be labelled greedy because he "counts money."

I wouldn't even say it is a cultural difference. Most Russian women have to live in a budget. They have to pay the rent or the utilities or with growing credit, they also have to pay the bank. They should already be used to living on a budget of some sorts. A woman should already understand the basics of managing a family budget even before meeting her first foreigner. Again, it comes down to choosing the woman and not the prettiest face. You are right in that this is something a man should be considering before proposing and this will take more than a week to figure out.

[Eduard]

ambach, a "matchmaker" can only do so much for you.  I hate to say this but most RW's will respect you for being "the man" and not needing someone to represent you.  To some that in and of itself could be seen as a character weakness.  Weak men don't fly there.

Tim, where in the world do you get this information from??? How do you know what MOST RW will think or feel??? In my experience it's quite the opposite. Women really appreciate it when a man has an interpretor helping him, and in many cases when it is obvious that interpretor is needed and a man just won't hire one they'll think of him as CHEAP! Also interpretor does not represent a man, rather provides the way to communicate and understand each other a 100% instead of playing a guessing game.
ALL women that my clients talk with on line and in person always write at some point "Say thanks to Eduard for me for translating for us, it makes things so much easier and I can understand what you are writing me without spending hours on each letter with the dictionary"

[Eduard]

I'll offer just the opposite advice.  First, you are not outsourcing someone selecting your girl.  Rather, you are outsourcing someone for narrowing the pool to a smaller number, say six, that you can meet and perhaps choose from.

We do this all the time in my business.  We hire a headhunter to find six good candidates.  We meet those six, and select one of them or ask for more. We don't examine the hundreds the headhunter pours over.

Works for finding women, too.   I have two friends here who are VERY happy with using a dating company here in the US to set up dates for them.  The girls are screened and you meet quality women.  There are several companies that do this; one example is "It's Just Lunch."   http://www.itsjustlunchtampa.com/

Frankly, my advice to you is too forget FSU women and stay domestic and use a company like this to arrange quality lunch dates for you.  I think you will be more successful going that route.

But if you are set on the FSU, PM me and I'll point you to several good resources in the FSU that can provide a pool of girls that are screened.   That will certainly save you time and money.

I agree a 100% with you Simoni! This is exactly what I do for my clients. I don't select women for them. They do. All I do is search for women that fit their criteria and make the first simple contact just to find out if she might be interested (a simple "Hi I liked your profile very much and i was wondering if you'd be interested in getting to know each other" ) Then if she responds positevely I submit her profile to my client and he makes the determination weather he is interested in persuing her or not. On average I will go through 10,000 profiles, contact about a 1000 women and my client will here back from about 100 that are already pre-screened by me for all the criteria, and they already expressed the interest in talking with my client. He'll talk to a 100 women that are a good match according to all parameters and aventually will narrow it down to 3-4 women that he really connects with.  I save my client weeks worth of searching time and making the first contact, and very importantly these women are from outside of the agency cicuit, and there is a huge difference!!!

[Misha]

For a client that does not know Russian, this is an ideal way to go. I pretty much did the same, but I knew Russian. You are putting in a lot of work for the client and I am convinced they will get better results this way.

[groovlstk]

Tim, where in the world do you get this information from??? How do you know what MOST RW will think or feel??? In my experience it's quite the opposite. Women really appreciate it when a man has an interpretor helping him, and in many cases when it is obvious that interpretor is needed and a man just won't hire one they'll think of him as CHEAP!

As far as I can see, Tim was referring to a matchmaker, not an interpreter. 

[Ronnie]

Eduard,

I thought Tim's assessment was off the mark too.  I couldn't understand how any RW would view a man who refuses to hire experts as strong and one who hires professional assistance as weak.  Makes no sense to me..  What, should I pull my own tooth rather than go to a dentist?  Would that show strength?

I suppose if you take a lady to restaurant, you could be seen as weak because you didn't prepare the meal yourself?

Being considered greedy is a bit different.  Any woman who does not understand prudent use of money is destined to have very little of it at the end of the day.  My advice to any woman is to watch for a man who knows when to spend and when to not spend and the man would do well to watch for a woman with good judgment as well. 

To paraphrase Ecclesiastes...there is a proper time and season for everything.  Only good judgment can tell you when to do and when to refrain.

[tim 360]

Eduard,  I said nothing about interperters?  Now the word "matchmaker" does sort of conjure up a controlling image in my mind whereby the "matchmaker" makes all the decisions.  Probably a stereotypical image I gleaned off TV.  Nothing wrong with interperters.  I love interperters.

I think Simoni's "headhunters" did make perfect sense to perform quality control and seperate the wheat from the chaff.

[groovlstk]

Eduard,

I thought Tim's assessment was off the mark too.  I couldn't understand how any RW would view a man who refuses to hire experts as strong and one who hires professional assistance as weak.  Makes no sense to me..  What, should I pull my own tooth rather than go to a dentist?  Would that show strength?

OK, in following your logic, a man's wife should be appreciative and deem him strong and wise if he outsources his love-making duties to an expert or latter-day version of Giacomo Casanova?     

Ronnie, it may be bewildering to you and Eduard, but some Russian women - indeed women beyond the Russian pool - prefer that their man came to them of his own accord, without having someone hold his hand to make sure she's not impure or seeking to use him for a free dinner or green card.

 

[Misha]

Ronnie, it may be bewildering to you and Eduard, but some Russian women - indeed women beyond the Russian pool - prefer that their man came to them of his own accord, without having someone hold his hand to make sure she's not impure or seeking to use him for a free dinner or green card.

True enough, but then again not all methods suit all men. I had no problem doing it on my own, but I knew Russian.   Presumable, Eduard is already filtering out the women who would be insulted by refusing to meet with any many who is using an intermediary: when he sends the first message, Eduard presumably lets the woman know that he is acting on someone else's behalf. Those women that prefer that a man do it all on his own are those that will immediately turn Eduard down.