A child from Russia is killed in the USA

[Serebro]

If one consults a raft of child health statistics from UNICEF, Russia is rated at no. 125 with a per capita gross national income 3 times that of Ukraine, for instance, who is rated at no. 101 .
 

That would appear to indicate something very bad in wealth distribution and care for the child generally.  Surely not the behaviour of a modern, caring state.  We are talking about the unnecessary deaths of 10000s of children against 14, over how many years?  Statistically, it's almost irrelevant.

 
off topic

 

Take care of the children, and ban adoption by foreigners.  Simple

.
it looks like they are going to do it with the USA soon
 

BTW, I found statistics for child deaths through maltreatment, and through injury, but as they only exist for developed countries (and Mexico), they can be of no relevance to this discussion.

maybe because people from not developed countries don't have money to adopt children from abroad.

[BC]

http://adoption.about.com/od/adoptionrights/p/russiancases.htm
Putting kids to the cold basement, hot tubes with boiling water, beating and starvation.

Don't American authorities control parents who adopt children?! Don't these parents have to be examined to check if they are mentally healthy?!

Serebo,

Do read the links I posted.

It is up to RU officials to decide if the parents are worthy.  I also cannot find reference to any US regulations that provide for follow up visits/monitoring for international adoptions like are provided for with adoptions within the US.

http://www.familyhelper.net/news/summary.html

Seems RU is one of the few countries left with rather unrestricted adoption policies.

[55North]

Because of the money involved?  As in the Balkans.

[Jet]

A sad story has been distorted into a nationalist issue and that is wrong. 

Although this is a core issue regarding this particular story, I left it out of my initial post so as not to cloud the other issue I presented. In point of fact, the Russian Gov't. loves to "play up" these types of stories. Recently we've been barraged by questions from Liliya's family and friends back home. It seems the Russian media's reporting of the economic downturn in the US has everyone in her town convinced that the average citizen here is grappling with hardships that surpass the 1929 stock market crash (complete with people jumping out of windows) and that life here right now is FAR worse than the Russian default of 1998. They all want to know how we manage to survive in such perilous times  . Another example was the Russian reporting of the Florida hurricanes a few years back. They were all sure we had to abandon our home because it was presented on TV like the entire state was under 9 feet of water (this was the year BEFORE Katrina). Seems the US has not cornered the market on shock journalism and sensationalist headlines after all...

[Serebro]

Serebo,

It is up to RU officials to decide if the parents are worthy.  

How can they check the person's mental health in a proper way?!
How can they control what happens in the USA?!

I also cannot find reference to any US regulations that provide for follow up visits/monitoring for international adoptions like are provided for with adoptions within the US.

is it the fault of the russian law?

Seems RU is one of the few countries left with rather unrestricted adoption policies.

it looks like it will be changed soon.

Posted by: 55North

Because of the money involved?

North and BC, so if you bring your kids to the kindergarten, says bye-bye to them  and at the end of the day he is beaten to death and boiled you will go to prison for homicide because it's up to you to examine and control the workers of kindergarten?!

[55North]

I know personally some British and American campaigners on behalf of the implementation of decent care and practice in children's homes in Ukraine.  The conditions in some homes are appalling.  Thanks to western 'meddling', the 'first lady' has taken up the cause, but there is still a conspiracy of silence in some quarters.
 
My information is that it the issue is very much about misappropriation of funds, and poor staff training and attitude, also caused by culture and lack of funds.
 
If this is Ukraine (and Bulgaria and Romania), it beggars belief that similar does not prevail in Russia.

[Serebro]

 

Obviously a nationalist discriminating statement as inflammatory as saying a ridiculous comment like "Why do Russians continue to not care for their children and leave them to adoption".  

Because they die maybe?!

Certainly I agree that Russia should raise their standards of allowance of international adoptions to stop such abuse of their children.  I am sure whatever regulations that Russia or any other country puts in place for qualification for adoption, the United States government would be happy to comply with

.
August,the USA says a lot about its highly developed society and being the best nation on the Earth, the country with the best laws where these laws work and people feel protected.Any person in Russia who doesn't know a lot of "details" will be sure that in any case the child will be better in the USA than in Russia and of course the USA that says a lot about its laws and taking care of people and children will take care of a little 1-5 yo Russian child.I am sure that the workers of these Russian orphanages are shocked when they know what that good looking and
smiling American couple that had hugged children and had brought gifts and candies to the orphanage didn't feed the child for weeks....that's hard to believe that when it comes to finding the one who is guilty the highly developed American society blames Russian government who is 5000 miles away.
  

A sad story has been distorted into a nationalist issue and that is wrong.  .

It's not, I have been to the USA and don't laugh(hard to believe from this thread)but it's so, I like the USA on the whole.

I just can't understand why this happens there ... on a regular basis.

August, don't feel offended, if you look at other threads in the sections "Russian front discussion" and Ukrainian front discussion 100% threads are nationalistic.Not because it's done on purpose but because on the name of the sections. So in this thread I am trying to discuss one problem that happens with people of both countries while many other people are trying to make it an ordinary "the problems of modern Russia" thread like the others in the section.

[BC]

How can they check the person's mental health in a proper way?!
How can they control what happens in the USA?!

It's quite obvious they can't - but still allow adoptions.

BTW, don't 'shoot the messenger'..  I was also a bit surprised that international adoptions seem quite unregulated on the US side.

[Serebro]

 I was also a bit surprised that international adoptions seem quite unregulated on the US side.

it looks like by "human beings" the American constitution means the US CITIZENS, if you aren't a citizen you aren't a human being so there's no need to protect you.  :crackthewhip:

[AugustD]

it looks like by "human beings" the American constitution means the US CITIZENS, if you aren't a citizen you aren't a human being so there's no need to protect you.  :crackthewhip:

I am not sure where in the US Constitution "human beings" is defined.  Frankly I really do not know if the term "human beings" is even in the US Constitution.  Maybe you are thinking of the Declaration of Independence?

Where does the responsibility of the US to protect the women and the children of the world start and end?  I really do not think Russia wishes any country to interfere in this way do they?

It truly is sad that these horrible people were allowed to adopt children.  Do you wonder why they looked to adopt from the Russian system versus the one in the US?

[Jet]

I am sure that the workers of these Russian orphanages are shocked when they know what that good looking and
smiling American couple that had hugged children and had brought gifts and candies to the orphanage didn't feed the child for weeks....that's hard to believe that when it comes to finding the one who is guilty the highly developed American society blames Russian government who is 5000 miles away.

Let's not forget that according to your linked article, at least half of that smiling American couple was a Citizen of the Russian Federation, and that the child was severely disabled and severely malnourished before arriving in the US. It was also stated in the article that the Russian Citizen received special training IN Russia to deal with "special needs" children such as this. Shall we then surmise that the child's malnourished condition was a direct result or INFERIOR Russian training? This brings us back to KenC's unanswered question: Why do Russians bring kids to the US to kill them? A better question would be... Why has Russia ramped up the propaganda war?

Do you wonder why they looked to adopt from the Russian system versus the one in the US?

Nothing to wonder about, the domestic US system is so expensive, long, and top heavy with redundant checks, it frightens off ten of thousands of good loving couples from attempting to adopt here. Guess what, American adoptees can die too, and in greater numbers than Russian children even with the increased checks (But the Russian media hasn't bothered to report that; not sensational enough).

Jet Yes, my impression is that they should stop this process in the USA and let more people from Europeans countries where this level is low to do it.

Invalid argument!
Gerhardt Schroeder can't adopt them all 
Eurpoeans, as KenC mentioned adopt all the Russian children they want to, now. By cutting the US off, those 4 to 5 thousand kids who would have gone to live with adoptive parents in the US will now stay in Russia, in orphanages, and be subject to the same statistical hardships as the rest. 

[Jet]

it looks like by "human beings" the American constitution means the US CITIZENS, if you aren't a citizen you aren't a human being so there's no need to protect you.  :crackthewhip:

Actually, the Constitution makes no distinction between citizens and non citizens. Illegal immigrants have been successfully exploiting this "loop hole" for many many years. If you are on US soil you are protected by the Constitution no matter how you got there. If the gov't really didn't care about this child, there would never have been a link for you to post showing a news story about an arrest for the commission of a crime. The child would have simply disappeared...

[Makkin]

  My thoughts about Seb's intelligence has fallen drastically and made clear that she is not in any way prepared mentally for the real world.
  Emotion and propoganda have the better of her and at her age she will not make the shift towards any possible solution for her life ( in regards to biased and propogandic thoughts) In ten years her abilities and goals will change and as she looks back or forward and that nationalistic chip on her shoulder will have grown too large for her to carry.
  As the population of Russia drops and is expected to be about 98 million down from 144 million in about 25 years one can only imagine what THAT has to do with this very sensitive subject WHAT an unstable single woman named Seb has to do with it in reality?
  My opinion is that Seb is not as informed as she would lead us to believe and her maturity and intelligence points are a mixture of a desperate fsu woman than many of us are very familiar with.

  Good luck Seb as your really gonna need it darling.

Makkin

[Serebro]

  My thoughts about Seb's intelligence has fallen drastically

who cares, Makkin, I am not here to prove everyone what a great person I am
My impression of you has fallen down, too when I knew that you had been on one of Jack's tours.

but I guess I would have been more popular by saying how and where to get a cheap apartment in Russia and how to avoid problems with the Russian police.

[Gator]

Serebro,

There is much more to this story than we know.

I read Jet's post above and the following caught my eye:

Let's not forget that according to your linked article... the child was severely disabled and severely malnourished before arriving in the US. It was also stated in the article that the Russian Citizen received special training IN Russia to deal with "special needs" children such as this.

I have heard from common sense would tell me, a significant number of orphan babies had unfit mothers who may have been a drug user, smoker and/or drinker of alcohol.   These activities during pregnancy can damage the fetus development.  There are other factors such as over medication, genetic defects,  Rh factors, etc.  In America, 3% of babies are born with some sort of birth defect, and I imagine the percentage is higher in the subpopulation of parents not wanting the child.

My point is that Jet's post suggests that this child seems to have had a medical problem before the parents adopted him.  Perhaps it was an eating disorder.  The boy probably would have been saved had he received better attention, yet maybe not.  That is why there must be a proper criminal trial in a courtroom and not in the Russian papers where I doubt any reporter traveled to America to investigate the story.

My friend's daughter when she adopted her Russian baby was of course greatly concerned about the boy's health.  She paid for a full fleet of medical examinations.  The baby boy manifested signs of malnourishment; however, her American pediatrician studied the reports and said, "Just get him here soon and all can be corrected."

[Serebro]

Gator, so if they 1 yo baby had been  healthy that would have prevented his mom from killing him?Why didn't she kill her own son who had the same down syndrome as the dopted child whom she killed?

what about the other cases?

Scott tried to write about behavioral problems of adopted children, but if you look at most cases most children were babies, all babies cry.

[krimster]

First some numbers.

There are in the USA today about 50,000 children adopted from Russia.
The reason for this is that until very recently there were very few adoptions within Russia, so the Russian government sanctioned foreign adoptions to help reduce the orphanage population to make way for the new ones.

There are about 700,000 total Russian children living in detskii doma in 2005, and about 2-4 million homeless Russian children living "on the streets".

On the condition of Russia's orphanages, please read "CRUELTY AND NEGLECT IN RUSSIAN ORPHANAGES" at http://hrw.org/reports98/russia2/ published by by the Human Rights Watch foundation.

Ukrainian orphans have about a 10% chance of committing suicide by the time they are 21.  See http://www.ukraineorphans.com/En/needs.htm   
I would expect Russia's institutions to have a similar rate.

Of the 50,000 Russian orphans in the USA, 14 have died due to abuse and neglect.  Even if it were one, it would be inexcusable.  To the best of my knowledge the Russian orphans have suffered a disproportionate amount of abuse and neglect.  Unfortunately, I believe it has something to do with the condition that some of the children are in.  Russian orphanages frequently select for adoption the most disabled children.  Their disabilities are the direct result of abuse and neglect within the orphanage system. I have seen first-hand how this happens, one example I saw was toddlers who were placed on a cot all day, the only human contact they received was when they were fed, and this contact was not warm and friendly.  These children will with 100% certainty grow up abnormally.  Foreign parents who adopt Russian children must spend a lot of time and money to navigate the system.  When they finally receive custody, many are shocked at what they receive, a physically or mentally disabled child.  Often their frustration turns to anger that they can't control and then a tragedy occurs.

Rather then condemn a system that has cost 14 lives, I would instead praise it for saving thousands.  If someone in Russia wants to make a "propaganda" war out of this, please visit a detskii doma first, then criticize foreigners who by their own efforts save children from these places.

[Jet]

There are in the USA today about 50,000 children adopted from Russia.

There are about 700,000 total Russian children living in detskii doma in 2005, and about 2-4 million homeless Russian children living "on the streets".


Ukrainian orphans have about a 10% chance of committing suicide by the time they are 21.  See http://www.ukraineorphans.com/En/needs.htm   
I would expect Russia's institutions to have a similar rate.

Of the 50,000 Russian orphans in the USA, 14 have died due to abuse and neglect.  Even if it were one, it would be inexcusable. 

Thanks for backing up my earlier post here in this thread with a bit more in-depth information. Your info reasserts my point that while 14 deaths is incredibly tragic, it is FAR better than the alternative.

[krimster]

Better, yes, to the tune of thousands of lives saved.  However, when it comes to nationalistic policies this simply doesn't matter.
I mean what are the lives of a few thousand children compared to a grandiose portrayal of Russian power, what period of history that I seem to have missed did the lives of individual Russians ever matter to the political leadership who instead are 100% focused on maintaining and enhancing their own power.

BTW, Russian nationalists, if don't like foreigners adopting your children.  How about adopting one yourself?  Oh, sorry....

[55North]

Approx. 3 million children died in Ukraine, the North Caucasus and the Kuban Steppe during the Great 'Famine' or Holdomor....
 

[55North]

How many children are deprived of health care because of this sort of behaviour?
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/20/AR2008032003869.html?referrer=emailarticle

[Jazzyclassy]

Better, yes, to the tune of thousands of lives saved.  However, when it comes to nationalistic policies this simply doesn't matter.
I mean what are the lives of a few thousand children compared to a grandiose portrayal of Russian power, what period of history that I seem to have missed did the lives of individual Russians ever matter to the political leadership who instead are 100% focused on maintaining and enhancing their own power.

BTW, Russian nationalists, if don't like foreigners adopting your children.  How about adopting one yourself?  Oh, sorry....

Krimster I understand what are you talking about and I am really thankful to those western people who adopt our russian wonderful kids and who treat them perfectly and those kids are happy and everything is amazing, we can only take an example from such blessed people who are adopting russian kids meanwhile they have their own kids

But understand russians correctly sometimes russian people do not have money to feed their own babies so how can they adopt the other ones. You can not blame russian people for being heartless cos we are not, we simply can not do it, cos of our government.

If you hate russians so much why you ever come on this forum and accuse people in being nationalistic? The thing that your people have money to adopt anyone they can does not make them all kind hearted and fantasticly generous ,cos sometimes they do it for some really evil purposes and as a show off , just cos it is modern and fashionable to flash adopted russian baby on some tea party among rich friends , you , americans have such a show off feature btw

As for genuine americans who really do feel for kids and adopt them just cos they wish good for those kids , we can only thank them.

[I/O]

Krimster I understand what are you talking about and I am really thankful to those western people who adopt our russian wonderful kids and who treat them perfectly and those kids are happy and everything is amazing, we can only take an example from such blessed people who are adopting russian kids meanwhile they have their own kids

But understand russians correctly sometimes russian people do not have money to feed their own babies so how can they adopt the other ones. You can not blame russian people for being heartless cos we are not, we simply can not do it, cos of our government.

As for genuine americans who really do feel for kids and adopt them just cos they wish good for those kids , we can only thank them.

Jazz the above had the makings of a superb post, way above the moralising and cat calling, until you said this............

If you hate russians so much why you ever come on this forum and accuse people in being nationalistic? The thing that your people have money to adopt anyone they can does not make them all kind hearted and fantasticly generous ,cos sometimes they do it for some really evil purposes and as a show off , just cos it is modern and fashionable to flash adopted russian baby on some tea party among rich friends , you , americans have such a show off feature btw

..............because that is the sort of thing a jealous spiteful kid would say. You are capable of better and I think you know in your heart of hearts that although such scenarios may exist, they would be so rare as to be irrelevant.

A kid is dead...!!! Can't we just ponder the horror that for a moment and leave the recriminations to the courts?

I/O

[Jazzyclassy]

Well they do have such a feature, anyway I agree that the child is dead and there is nothing people can do about it now

[krimster]

Jazzyclassy

Why do you think I hate Russians?  Because I criticize?  Do you, like most Russians prefer silence? Are you really trying to tell me that there isn't a lot of Russian Nationalism at the moment, I think Олег Газманов, might disagree, yeah, "Made in the U.S.S.R" it is!  By the way, all the people I know who have adopted Russian and Ukrainian children ARE NOT rich, just middle class, do you know any of the Russian oligarch's who are billionaire's who have adopted a Russian orphan, no you don't. No one is adopting to show off, this statement shows ignorance on your part.  You think Americans show off, compared to whom, your Russian oligarch's, please....

If the Russian government HAD ANY interest in reducing the number of incidents of abuse to those adopted into foreign countries, they simply only have to stop the policy of adopting the most disabled of the children, and stop trying to push their "problem children" onto unexpecting and unprepared adoptive parents.