A child from Russia is killed in the USA

[Serebro]

Another child was killed in the USA http://www.sltrib.com/justice/ci_8569196

------archive
http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/08-08-2005/8707-child-0
http://www.russiablog.org/2006/05/child_murderer_punished_americ.php

[Makkin]

  Very strange situation and it must be explained to understand in a way that makes sense.
  If the couple had Russian ties and also three biological children it makes one pause and wonder why they adopted two more children? It also makes one wonder if possibly the three children other than the adopted children played a part in this?

  Sad is all I can say and may god show love and grace in this situation.

Makkin

[Misha]

It is a very sad case and any child being killed is tragic. However, it would be nice if the Russian media were to pay more attention to the children killed every year in Russia. According to Russian government statistics, 2,500 children are killed every year in Russia by their parents (source: http://www.rg.ru/2008/01/17/deti.html). This is very high: as a point of comparison, every year in the United States close to 1,500 children are killed and the United States' population is over twice that of Russia (source for United States stats: http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm05/chapterfour.htm#child).

[Serebro]

It is a very sad case and any child being killed is tragic. However, it would be nice if the Russian media were to pay more attention to the children killed every year in Russia.

it does
http://ruspro.info/
www.ombudsman.gov.ru/dad05/dad_40/r05.doc
(I am sorry it's in Russian, but you asked for Russian articles),
 but will it make American parents stop killing adopted Russian children?

I mean many children are killed by their parents-alcoholics or emotionally unbalanced parents who didn't want to have children but they have to upbring them.. but in case with american families it sounds very strange as it's obvious that these people wanted to have children and they were ready to go to another country to adopt them, but why do they kill them?!
I mean there are  many people from different countries who adopt children from Russia but it looks like the only country where so many parents kill them is the USA...

[Misha]

it does, but will it make American parents stop killing adopted Russian children?

Well, technically speaking, in this case the father was also a Russian citizen. Again, it is a tragic case and it is sad to hear of even one child being killed. However, the impression that we are left with the Russian media is that hordes of Russian children are being sent from the safety of Russia to the United States where they will be beaten and killed. I saw the story on the mail.ru site that I visit daily, and I have yet to see any feature story about any Russian child being killed in Russia by their parents. Why is this?

[wxman]

A child's death is a tragedy for the whole world. The focus should not be on why children are killed in Russia, US or anywhere else, but why children are killed. Children die by the minute, every hour, every day, all around the world from abuse, neglect, war, famine, terrorism, and so on. That should be enough to make anyone sick. Pointing blame solves nothing, it only leads to complacency and the belief it doesn't happen in one's own back yard.

[Serebro]

Well, technically speaking, in this case the father was also a Russian citizen.

what about Irma Pavlis,Peggy Sue Hilt and the others?!

[Misha]

what about Irma Pavlis,Peggy Sue Hilt and the others?!

Can you name any of the children killed in Russia by their parents last year?

[Gator]

it does, but will it make American parents stop killing adopted Russian children?

Serebro, the manner in which you express this makes it seem as if you are suggesting Americans don't care and there are no American laws to prevent it.   I know this is not you.  The Pravda writing is sensationalized so maybe the Russian article was just as biased and got you upset.

One of my golfing friends' daughter has adopted a young Igor and that boy is getting love, attention and care (and lots of good food).  

[turniptruck]

Any chance we can drop this or does someone's feelings have to get bruised?

[Serebro]

Can you name any of the children killed in Russia by their parents last year?

gabaub, I will say again, you will not solve the problem by saying "look at yourself"/

Gator

Serebro, the manner in which you express this makes it seem as if you are suggesting Americans don't care and there are no American laws to prevent it.  

the manner?!
In which manner can a murder be expressed?!I wrote an article and everybody started pointing to Russia.
Shall I write it as "that's great that this level is so low in the USA" or what?!
Let's put the question in a different manner:how many Russian families kill their adopted children in Russia and the statistics will be scary in comparison with this level in the USA.

so according to the reaction of americans I can say WHAT kill these children.


It's the ATTITUDE of americans and their vision of the problem:"no matter how bad I treat the child he is from Russia and if he had lived in Russia he would have be beaten even worse so I can just continue beating him"/

[BC]

Sadly the lot of FSU children growing up without parents, as in many other countries is probably not a good one.

As with any human undertaking, a risk is involved.  The best medicines will kill some, doctors will misdiagnose, folks will not pay attention while driving or worse will drink and drive, and thousands each day will die of famine while others feast.

It is an unjust world for sure, but there is a lot of good being done to balance things a bit.

It's not a perfect world by any means.

But many do try, by being good parents, adoptive or otherwise.  Thank goodness the successes outweigh the failures by far.

[BC]

Serebo,

I understand the emotions involved, but do try and take a step back.

FSU countries are a destination for many foreign parents wanting to adopt.  Some of the reasons for this correspond with the same reasons men seek FSU women.

There is an obvious supply / demand relationship involved.

Which would be worse.. accepting that risks are involved for very few or denying thousands of kids the chance for a happy family life?

[Shadow]

Serebro,

Ther are bad people in every corner of the globe.
Government officials can not spot their acting as they see just 5 minutes and will never know until it is too late.
Any child death is tragic, and in most cases the parents are to blame, in cases where they were not good parents will still blame them selves.

But it is not fair to accuse America of not being able to save one child.

[Serebro]

Serebro,

Ther are bad people in every corner of the globe.
Government officials can not spot their acting as they see just 5 minutes and will never know until it is too late.
Any child death is tragic, and in most cases the parents are to blame, in cases where they were not good parents will still blame them selves.

But it is not fair to accuse America of not being able to save one child.

I am not accusing Americans, I wrote nothing in my first point, but the reaction of gabaub hurt me.

I had that suspicion before and now it's proved. That's sad.

[ScottinCrimea]

Serebro,  I think the question is as to what was the purpose of you posting these articles?  Instead of just saying, "another child killed", you specifically focused on those Russian adoptees killed in the US.  Sadly, children are killed by their parents every day in every country with some countries having higher rates and some less, so why select a few examples in the US?  Your follow-up post suggests that you had some kind of ulterior motive in your original post other than to point out the tragedy of innocent children who are killed and you were just waiting for a response to jump on.

I don't want to get into a country versus country debate here, but it seems that one of your examples is that of a Russian man killing his adopted Russian child who just happened to live in America.  So which culture are we to blame?  In my opinion, this is an issue of personal evil rather than one of cultural evil and the country of origin or the country where the tragedy occured is irrelevant.

[Gator]

Serebro,

This unfortunate child did not die because he was Russian or because he was adopted or because he was living in America.  He died because his adoptive parents were mentally deranged, addicted to drugs, neglectful of the child's medical condition, or something to that effect.  

There are strong laws against child neglect, abuse and murder, and the laws are enforced.  The parents will face criminal justice in a courtroom and all the evidence against them will be presented, as well as their defense.

I say again that Pravda wrote a distorted anti-American piece, and that seems to be the case these days with the Russian media as if the current Russian policy is to build anti-American sentiment.

The deaths of young children in Russia is not related to this case in America.  So please disconnect the two.

[Serebro]

Serebro,  I think the question is as to what was the purpose of you posting these articles?  Instead of just saying, "another child killed", you specifically focused on those Russian adoptees killed in the US. 

Errr, let me think...Cos it was about a Russian adopted child killed in the USA.
Yes, it's a tragedy, because in the USA these children are killed while their "parents" really think that they are saving the poor Russian child cos they brought him to the USA and that's a HUGE present to the child.
I don't know any other country in the world where parents kill so many adopted children and that's the problem
why not to write about it when you write about journalists murdered in Russia, journalists are murdered everywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why to start threads abour bad Russia that "caused" Holodomor and many Ukrainians starved, it looks like poor adopted children starve in the USa with their new American parents, too, so why not to start a thread about it?


What's the purpose of starting other threads about how bad Russian government is in this section? Why not to write"Government doesn't take care of its citizens.It's a problem"?
Gator

This unfortunate child did not die because he was Russian or because he was adopted or because he was living in America.  He died because his adoptive parents were mentally deranged, addicted to drugs, neglectful of the child's medical condition, or something to that effect

I agree, but why can you explain it doesn't  happen with adopted Russian children in Norway, in the UK, in Germany?!
But there are more than 15 adopted Russian children killed in the USA?

BTW, do you know that both Lenin and Stalin had serious phychological problems, so did Hitler, so let's forget about millions of killed people just because people are die everywhere.

[ScottinCrimea]

I don't know any other country in the world where parents kill so many adopted children and that's the problem

GatorI agree, but why can you explain it doesn't  happen with adopted Russian children in Norway, in the UK, in Germany?!
But there are more than 15 adopted Russian children killed in the USA?

Serebro, can you give any statics or reports to back any of this up?  According to your article, over 60,000 Russian children were adopted by americans in the past 10 years and of these, 14 were killed by their adoptive parents.  What can you cite to show that the percentage is less in any other country?

Any time this happens, it is a tragedy, but to say it happens more often in the US than anywhere else with absolutely nothing to back this up is incendiary and only speaks of one looking for a fight, not intelligent discussion.

[Serebro]

Serebro,



I say again that Pravda wrote a distorted anti-American piece, and that seems to be the case these days with the Russian media as if the current Russian policy is to build anti-American sentiment.

Yes, that's a bad american habit, too-every time american newspapers write something bad about Russia everybody says that russia is bad, everytime a Russian newspaper writes something bad about America it's a bad newspaper and the current anti-american policy.


So as gabaub wanted I found an article in the same "bad" Pravda about a Russian father who got drunk and raped and killed his 4 yo daughter
http://www.pravda.ru/accidents/factor/crime/23-01-2008/252739-town-0

so are you going to add about Russian media who only writes bad things  about America or about American parents killing adopted children and doesn't write about the russian cases?!

[Serebro]

Serebro,   According to your article, over 60,000 Russian children were adopted by americans in the past 10 years and of these, 14 were killed by their adoptive parents.  What can you cite to show that the percentage is less in any other country?

Scott, why not to lift your ass and search?! your citizens kill our children and I am supposed to look for the information for you while you are watching TV?!, you don't know how to search?!
I just know that there's a big discussion of the last case on mail.ru, I have never seen such a big discussion before so I don't understand why it wasn't mentioned by someone else on the info board here so I had to do it myself.

[ScottinCrimea]

Okay, serebro, I "got off my ass" and searched, since you are unwilling to make any effort to back up your accusations. Here are some interesting articles.  Maybe we should be discussing adoption in France, Denmark, etc.  Here we're talking about 103 Sudanese children versus 14 in the US.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/11/europe/EU-GEN-Denmark-India-Adoption.php

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/131219.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7967014/

another interesting article that focuses on solutions rather than accusations;

http://www.newsweek.com/id/74385/page/1

I'm also curious what the percentage of children is who are abused or killed in orphanages and how that compares with that of those who are adopted.

[wxman]

Something for both US and Russia to be proud of. They are number 1 and 2 respectively for Online child abuse images. Pretty sad. All this banter back and forth on who is worse, when both countries are filled with pigs and perverts.

http://www.redcross.ca/article.asp?id=020074&tid=001

[Serebro]

Okay, serebro, I "got off my ass" and searched, since you are unwilling to make any effort to back up your accusations. Here are some interesting articles.  Maybe we should be discussing adoption in France, Denmark, etc.  Here we're talking about 103 Sudanese children versus 14 in the US.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/11/europe/EU-GEN-Denmark-India-Adoption.php

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/131219.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7967014/

another interesting article that focuses on solutions rather than accusations;

http://www.newsweek.com/id/74385/page/1

I'm also curious what the percentage of children is who are abused or killed in orphanages and how that compares with that of those who are adopted.

that's the extract from the article
"Denmark on Monday suspended all adoptions from India after a news report claimed that some of the children who have been adopted in the Scandinavian country could have been abducted."

that shows how good Denmark is. they didn't write anything about 10 or more children killed. Did the USA suspend adoption from Russia?!


The article on earthtimes is about kidnapping but not about children tortured and killed by their parents.

The next article is about behavioral problems of children .I can see no logic.  Is it the reason to kill them?!

and the last article:
"Peggy Hilt wanted to be a good mother. But day after day, she got out of bed feeling like a failure. No matter what she tried, she couldn't connect with Nina, the 2-year old girl she'd adopted from Russia as an infant. The preschooler pulled away whenever Hilt tried to hug or kiss her. Nina was physically aggressive with her 4-year-old sister, who had been adopted from Ukraine, and had violent tantrums. Whenever Hilt wasn't watching, she destroyed the family's furniture and possessions. "Every day with Nina had become a struggle," she recalls now.

As the girl grew older, things got worse. Hilt fell into a deep depression. She started drinking heavily, something she'd never done before. Ashamed, she hid her problem from everyone, including her husband.


Then Hilt did something unthinkable. She grabbed Nina around the neck, shook her and then dropped her to the floor, where she kicked her repeatedly before dragging her up to her room, punching her as they went. "I had never hit a child before," she says. "I felt horrible and promised myself that this would never happen again." But it was too late for that. Nina woke up with a fever, and then started vomiting. The next day she stopped breathing. By the time the ambulance got the child to the hospital, she was dead.



Hilt's story is awful—and rare—but sadly it is not unique. Adopting a child from another country is usually a positive, enriching experience for both the child and the parent. Over the last 20 years, foreign adoption has become more popular, and Americans now adopt about 20,000 children from Guatemala, China, Russia and other nations each year. (In the last few years, as restrictions and red tape have increased in some countries, the number of overseas adoptions has begun to drop.) Longitudinal studies show that most of these kids do quite well, but in a small but significant number of cases, things go very badly. Since the early 1990s, the deaths of 14 Russian children killed by their adoptive parents have been documented. (That disclosure was partly responsible for Russia's decision in 2006 to suspend its intercountry adoption program while it underwent review.)"
you wrote

another interesting article that focuses on solutions rather than accusations;

what does it have to do with europeans killing their adopted children and what kind of solutions does it offer?

I asked you to find something about adopted children being tortured for a long time and killed in other countries, where are the articles?!

I'm also curious what the percentage of children is who are abused or killed in orphanages

it doesn't matter here, see my answer to gabaub's post.

[wxman]

One can conclude from all this grim discussion is that neither Americans nor Russians should be allowed to have children, as American adopt them and murder them, and Russians abandon them so they can be adopted and murdered.