Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)

[Misha]

Serebro could have helped herself with agreeing to the terms but I also believe that others should have also been called on to agree as there was more than one who was out of bounds.

I agree. God knows I did not agree with Serebro all the time, but it was not appropriate to call her names. If the TOS are to mean anything, ALL must respect its terms and conditions.

According to the vision of this site: "RWD promotes spirited, even heated, discourse and exchange - within the confines of civil behavior and with a focus on increasing our collective knowledge and understanding of these international unions."

In my world, calling a woman a "b!tch" is not civil behavior.

[Admin]

I agree. God knows I did not agree with Serebro all the time, but it was not appropriate to call her names. If the TOS are to mean anything, ALL must respect its terms and conditions.

According to the vision of this site: "RWD promotes spirited, even heated, discourse and exchange - within the confines of civil behavior and with a focus on increasing our collective knowledge and understanding of these international unions."

In my world, calling a woman a "b!tch" is not civil behavior.

Agreed.

We are working to improve things.

- Dan

[BC]

I was brought up in times where slapping a woman, verbally or otherwise was quite taboo regardless of the circumstances.  

Incidents such as these serve well to affirm the wisdom of these teachings.

In my opinion there is no acceptable excuse.

[deccie]

Utrobina,  It is easy to look back on things an see what someone should have done differently.   Just like your comment about the US involvement in WWII. I don't believe for a minute we stayed out of the European front in the hopes Germany would have conquered Russia.  We would have then had to face all the forces of Germany on one front and it could have been a far bigger challenge.  We really don't know what would have happened and 20-20 hindsight is just speculation.

This is not the specific topic under discussion in this thread but this comment just irked me.
There are some things Turbo that are not subject to speculation - especially about Military history.

There were events - particularly in the Second World War - that were specifically targeted at civilians.
The firestorm bombing of German and Japanese cities being just one event on the Allied side.

Even just some peripheral reading on the topic will confirm for you what the targets were.

Read about the Firestorm bombing of Cologne as one example. Look at the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as others. I make no comment as to the morality of such events.

If one looks at who is doing the majority of the dying in Iraq it is neither the coalition or the insurgents.  It is the civilians because the insurgents see advantage in targeting them. As well as the unfortunate incidents of "collateral damage".

[dneid]

Hey, Guys,
In am sorry things got to the point that they did.  Do I think Sebero overstepped some bounds of civil behavior?  Yeap.  Do I think ken crossed the line as well?  Yeap.  But, I am not the final judge.  Things became heated on both sides and I, for one, was sorry to see things deteriorate to the point that they did.

Now, can we all take a collective breathe and just cool off?  I think it would be best if we let everyone calm down and relax.  Jazzy, I have always enjoyed your posts and Sebero's as well.  Do all of us get carried away at times?  Yes.  But now is the time for things to cool off.

I was never upset about anything Sebero said in response to my posts.  There were times when I was confused and not sure what her intent was.  When that happened, I just wrote it off to differences in culture and opinions.

I will be honest and state that I will miss Sebero's more civil input.  Dan, maybe we can find a way to allow her back, if she desires.  Towards the end here, I would PM Sebero to better understand what she was trying to say and I found her easier to understand.

[Bluebell]

Jazz: This is not quite correct. Serebro played chess until she backed herself into a corner with nowhere to go.......she shouted, "I am not gunna play by the rules, I am out". The ban came after that on the basis of her declaration of not being prepared to accept the TOS. She gambled, she bluffed and her gamble/bluff was called. She put herself in a position of no choice.

The second Dan raised the question as to whether or not she would accept the TOS, it was never going any other way. She has the choice, she gambled with no aces and lost. Good job she doesn't admire America because she wouldn't do well in Vegas.

Catz: I don't think your peace offerings (In either location) are particularly well advised.

I/O

It's not Serebro but you, guys, who lost again. Just wondering what do you do with your wives when their comments get too uncomfortable for you? Ban them?

[Admin]

Hey Folks,

I have a few small comments.

One is - I feel badly about what happened yesterday. I like (or liked) Serebro and was sorry to see things take the turn they took. Normally, as most know, I do NOT discuss these sorts of things - and would not have in this instance, except that Serebro made the decision to take this to another board, and she posted photos of my daughter, and others who were not a party to the events. That, IMO, is behavior that is despicable and compelled a response. My daughter is fluent in written and spoken English and Russian - and the thought she might see the tripe Serebro is now claiming is quite distressing indeed. Fortunately, at 4 years old, she doesn't yet pay attention to those kinds of sites - but still.

The next is - while I will not discuss all the things that went on behind the scenes, I will state that there was quite a lot done to try to salvage things. Obviously, it did not result in a successful outcome.

I appreciate seeing your comments here - and hope you will continue to offer them. Please do not berate any RWD members, past or present - just focus on what we learned and what we can do better. I am paying close attention to your comments.

- Dan

[Jazzyclassy]

It's not Serebro but you, guys, who lost again. Just wondering what do you do with your wives when their comments get too uncomfortable for you? Ban them?

Bluebell , that is an excellent statement you made !

You can now regret, say how sorry you are, say nice polite finally words, but as I already told it wont change anything,

I asked Dan many times long time ago to delete my wedding pics

Me and my husband we do not want our amazing pics to be displayed in here

I ask Dan once again to remove them if he claims he is objective and civil person

No , you never appreciate the imput women give you here, you only appreciate Lily with her always agreeing point of view and that's about it

You might be a lovely team of guys but lately you hide it very well. It is very sad and disappointing ....

[tim 360]

I guess I missed it all or most of it.  I've had one or two recent disagreements with Serebro but usually I don't pay much attention to her posts and I don't have anything against her.  People are bound to disagree and some disagreements can get nasty.  I think it is probably best to think about it first before posting nasty.  A little self control.  Cool down before you post.

Since it appears Serebro blatantly violated the TOS and also posted photos of Dan and his family and other people here on another site etc, Antidate...then she deserves to be banned and so does anyone else who does what she did.  Nasty arguments are one thing but what she did was low, mean and nasty.  That type of behaviour can't be ignored or given a little slap on the wrist.  It is malicious and despicable.

[Jazzyclassy]

I guess I missed it all or most of it.  I've had one or two recent disagreements with Serebro but usually I don't pay much attention to her posts and I don't have anything against her.  People are bound to disagree and some disagreements can get nasty.  I think it is probably best to think about it first before posting nasty.  A little self control.  Cool down before you post.

Since it appears Serebro blatantly violated the TOS and also posted photos of Dan and his family and other people here on another site etc, Antidate...then she deserves to be banned and so does anyone else who does what she did.  Nasty arguments are one thing but what she did was low, mean and nasty.  That type of behaviour can't be ignored or given a little slap on the wrist.  It is malicious and despicable.

I advise you to cool off yourself, none deserves such treatment which you offer here and your "kind" fake welcomes here

Why can not you say that KenC deserves this or that as he violated those rules millions of times by calling so many people's names, am sorry he wont have a lifetime to appologise....

[Jazzyclassy]

Plus to humiliate a Woman , the most amazing creatures in the world who give lives

Oh I have no words to express how I feel

[Turboguy]

This is not the specific topic under discussion in this thread but this comment just irked me.
There are some things Turbo that are not subject to speculation - especially about Military history.

There were events - particularly in the Second World War - that were specifically targeted at civilians.

Deccie, I was really not trying to start a discussion of the bad and worst parts of WWII.  I will agree that there were some terrible things on both sides and that probably can be said about other wars such as Vietnam.  My point was intended to be simply that it is easy to second guess things.  I am sure that if Custer could learn from experience and change his actions he would.  Utrobina was the one that brought up WWII.  Personally I don't agree with his comment but that is my opinion and not worth much.  Right now talking about one war is enough for this thread.

I am sure there are many who wish they could have jumped in and help resolve the situtation.   At this point it is like WWII.  It's over.   I think the most we can hope for is to reflect on some of the things some should not have done and some of the things some should have done and try to keep things like that from happening in the future.  I think we need to make sure as well that those who are upset over the things that happened don't go to the point where we loose other members.  

Jazzy, Jazzy, I agree that to humilate a woman is very bad.  I don't think it is in the TOS that you can't call people names.  I have not read them for a while but I do think most of us are to act in a proper manner.   I agree with you that calling her a dolt and a twit or whatever words were used was in poor taste.   I would not be proud of myself had I called her that.  We are all different and set our own standards of behavior.  It is Dan's call as to if that behavior is acceptable or not.  I wish the situation could have been resolved.   I accept Dan's comments that there were commuications behind the scene.   Right now I think those who need to get something off thier chest should and then we need to move on and try to make sure things like that don't happen again.  

[KenC]

I was brought up in times where slapping a woman, verbally or otherwise was quite taboo regardless of the circumstances.  

Incidents such as these serve well to affirm the wisdom of these teachings.

In my opinion there is no acceptable excuse.

OK, so in your mind there should be two sets of rules?  One for men and another for women?  I wasn't brought up that way!  My own Mother would tell me to treat women the same way they treat me and I have lived my life that way.  There are many fine ladies on this board and I have treated every one of them in a gentlemanly manner.  Those females that choose to get nasty should expect the same in return.  Why should it be any different?  Are we not all about equality here?  Please tell me why there should be two sets of rules?
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

OK, so in your mind there should be two sets of rules?  One for men and another for women?  I wasn't brought up that way!  My own Mother would tell me to treat women the same way they treat me and I have lived my life that way.  There are many fine ladies on this board and I have treated every one of them in a gentlemanly manner.  Those females that choose to get nasty should expect the same in return.  Why should it be any different?  Are we not all about equality here?  Please tell me why there should be two sets of rules?
KenC

first of all , you call women names, when they have opposite opinion , it is solid , you always do those things

Please treat women how they treat you , now you see how You treat them , if they treat you the current way? aa?

[saturn11]

In my short time reading the forums, I think RWD is clearly the most informative. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad, and with free speech, you have some that cross the line and break the rules. My observation too is, some guys on here think that they are like little gods, all-knowing, but on the other hand many have offered very useful advice. As for posting pictures of someone's children & wife, that is very very childish, thus I was less inclined to take Serebro seriously. I did not see the value of many of her posts, and some other posters on here as well. I work many hours, so I don't have time for "pi**ing matches". I just want the facts, resources and real-life experiences that many have offered on RWD, and have helped me in my endeavours.... Sometimes, you just need to be an adult and know when to walk away. And on the other hand, some really like hearing themselves talk....

[AugustD]

Serebro does not need anyone to defend her actions as she does quite nicely herself.  I am not buying the "picking on a poor pitiful girl" crap though.

What else could have Admin done?  Did you not read the exchange?  What could he do?  He tries to take it to personal email with her and she posts that on here and then she starts to threaten the privacy of some people.  This is correct?  She was warned and warned and warned and she could have backed off the subject at any point and she didn't.  Posting someone else's photos is just wrong.  You can justify it by saying others do it but they are wrong also. 

I found Serebro's posts to be interesting though often she definitely tried to be inflammatory...you need to compare the 9-11 disaster simply to think numbers?  C'mon...we all know why she used such a disaster.  I did not take the exception so harshly to her anti-American comments as others but I didn't have the history others did either.  I appreciated her comments as it gave me a perspective that was not my opinion and I appreciated that because it makes me think deeper about how I believe.

I am also with Jazzyclassy with it is strange that so many come out to eulogize the "fallen poster' and yet no one stepped in yesterday to help defuse the situation.  Frankly the best eulogy here so far was from KenC who basically stated she could hold her own.  Sounds to me like a lot more respect than "poor pitiful girl".

[Jazzyclassy]

Thank you Dan for removing the topic

 

[Admin]

Thank you Dan for removing the topic

You can 'thank' me with actions - not words.

- Dan

[Misha]

OK, so in your mind there should be two sets of rules?  One for men and another for women?

How about one set of rules that EVERYBODY follows without exception.

[Jazzyclassy]

.

[Admin]

I never did anything wrong I am just protecting my dignity here

Tell that to someone who does not know the facts.

- Dan

[WmGO]

Looks like I missed some interesting debates.  

*******************

Off topic response to:

Of the 30 million + who died in Russia during WWII, almost half of those were Civilians............ the Russian Civilian deaths ...........

One of my pet peeves in the field of history involves SOVIET deaths
in WWII/GPW. Let me elaborate:

1. The generally accepted total SOVIET deaths is 20 million, not 30 (although recently a few historians have suggested the 25 million figure. But
not 30. Never 30.

2. Yes, half these deaths were civilian.

3. The peeve: the gross misrepresentation of WHO the dead people are,
i.e., their ETHNICITY/NATIONALITY:  "Soviet" does not = Russian =  they were NOT all Russians. In point of fact, approximately 7.5 million or more
were UKRANIAN and approximately 2.5 to 3 million were BELARUSIAN. There
were probably less than 5 million ethnic Russian deaths and the remaining
balance were ethnic Asiatics conscripted into the war effort. Yes, all numbers
are staggering and mind numbing, but let us not confuse facts with sympathy misplaced.

4. In point of fact, ALL of Ukraine and Belarusia were conquered and destroyed by the Nazis. Only a fraction of historic Russia proper was
conquered and destroyed. Belarus and Ukraine suffered the most by far
in terms of total physical destruction and population death totals and percentages of population lost.

5. The Red Army killed somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000
Ukrainians so some put the Ukrainian total at 10 million.

***********************

Also, the suggestion that the U.S. intentionally delayed entry into
WWII Europe to harm the USSR is delusional paranoia  without factual basis.
Besides, when a devil makes a razor pact with another devil it cannot
be heard to complain when it reaps what it has sown.


***********************

Now everyone can get back to talking about Ms. $1000 pants. 
 


 




 

[Makkin]

  In my short membership here I've only seen people banned who actually seem to want to be banned. She wanted to be banned on some level it seemed and she got what she wanted.

  Her statements sometimes seemed to be simply lies or non-truths and in many cases she distorted the facts with her feelings. Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion but if others do not agree it seems those people who become banned do so because the agreement factor has shaped the fluid of discontent and in her case she exploded into a form of rage that attacked rather than argued.

Makkin

[WmGO]

... exploded into a form of rage that attacked rather than argued.

Makkin

A common trait of many FSUW. Is there
some psycho-social-historical reason for this?????

[BC]

OK, so in your mind there should be two sets of rules?  One for men and another for women?  I wasn't brought up that way!  My own Mother would tell me to treat women the same way they treat me and I have lived my life that way.  There are many fine ladies on this board and I have treated every one of them in a gentlemanly manner.  Those females that choose to get nasty should expect the same in return.  Why should it be any different?  Are we not all about equality here?  Please tell me why there should be two sets of rules?
KenC

Ken,

Yes, I do indeed believe there are two set of rules.  In my book you have not acted like a gentleman. Heck, when a newcomer comes aboard we give him tips.. such as opening doors, taking her coat, sitting her at the table, attire, being a gentleman etc etc.  In return we want a family oriented wife.   

The contradiction you put forth with this post is like day and night.  In a world where a majority of men complain about feminazi's, womens lib, equality etc etc, your statement here seems to say give me the cake and icing too.. for free.

Want equality? Marry a full blown AW with a feminazi agenda.  Hey.. that's what most of us did in the first place..

I take great pride in being the best gentleman I can be.  I do not always succeed but do really try.  My wife also puts forth great efforts to keeping our relationship, household and family going, even with the long odds we face.

Quite honestly, and I truly hope it is so - you have a very unique relationship with a RW.. this does not however translate or transfer well along the lines of this post to the other 99.999% of us out here.

Sure guys, don't open doors, refuse to take coats, favor equality over what you seek and see how the women you meet in FSU react, well the overwhelming majority anyway.

I LOVE the women who come to this forum, every one of them without exception.. why?

Because when I read their posts, I can relate the thoughts expressed with my direct experience living 24/7 with my family for over 5 years.

Elen, Jazzy, Serebro, DonnaP, and all the other FSU women gain my full respect for even attempting to be a part of this community.  Their input along with that from other men have been essential to our personal success.  I was extremely lucky that I got to taste both the apple and the orange.  I only wish the same for any man that comes here.