going back yet again

[anono]

i'm planning another trip to ukraine. i've made enough that i stopped counting.

i will arrive in kiev in the middle of september. j will meet me at borispol and we will go to crimea for 10 days after a brief stay in kiev.

j has been studying english. she is out of work due to a lack of something or another at her old job. she looks for work and visits with one of her girlfriends regularly.

we will spend up to 10-14  days in crimea, then head to kharkov. i most likely will meet the 'rents.

then i will return to kiev without j to work for the ukrainian company i have a small investment with. after about a week or two with work, i will spend more time with j, assuming everything is working on all levels.

i anticipate she will speak better english, we will see what it is like to be together 24/7 over a period of time. i hope we will have better communication and deeper talks to see if we have a common view of the future, should we have one together.

i think anyone who does this (looking for a U/RW) is taking on one of the most difficult tasks in regards to a relationship. anything is possible, anything can happen.

[Photo Guy]

Relax and enjoy the ride. Life's an adventure. Good to see you weren't swallowed up and spit out during your last trip. And still getting to know 'j'? Good for you. I thought maybe you flaked out, but...nope. Don't let a good one off the hook, even if she forces you to look in the mirror.  

[anono]

hello everyone, it's been awhile since i last visited this site.

i spent the last week in foros with "j" and we have had a great time together. i am now in her home town and she is sleeping in the other room.

a few things run through my head as i spend time here with "j". i know i am very fortunate to spend so much time here. i feel sorry for those who come here and get engaged to a woman they 1) have not kissed 2) have not had close relations 3) basically do not know.

i know many of the men who travel here do not have the time to get to know the lady or ladies they are interested in. i understand, to a degree, why some men become engaged quickly but i do not understand why some of the men here cheer them on. when your lady gets off the airplane in the usa, she will be almost a total stranger.  russian men do not become engaged to these ladies in a day or a week or a month. most of the american men would never do this back home so i have a hard time understanding (other than time retraints) why they would do so here.

as i look back at the two major relationships i have had with UW and a shorter one with an RW, i see how spending time with them is so important. i look back at one of those relationships and almost do not see how it went as far as it did. getting to know someone takes time. had i jumped the gun with any of the three, it would have been a disaster.

as good as "j" is, i am still not fully commited to the idea that she is the "one". time will tell of course and maybe this is why i am making this post.

spending time with your prospective mate is so crucial, all i can do is implore those of you who are moving quickly to try as best you can to come HERE and spend time with your lady before bringing her to the states. i will go as far to say, even if and when you do bring her to the staes, make it a visit without the added pressure of being engaged and expecting to marry. a friend of mine as well as myself have had some interesting discussions with U/RW who are already in the states..each and every one of the ladies suggested that it would have been eaiser for them to have come here without the added pressure of an impending wedding.

as it looks now, "j" is going to come to the usa sometime next year and we will not be engaged. it will be a visit. she does not want to live in the usa, she would prefer i move to ukraine. for that matter, i suggested siberia and she replied, "ok, i with you". she could not care less where we live as long as she is with me. i can only hope you guys can find a lady with a similar attitude.

two of the RW i spoke with in the usa are both married. both are having affairs with other men while they are married and living with the idiots who asked them to marry them before actually spending any time together. one is married to a pathologist who spent eight days with her before asking her to marry him. she is a "9" and he is 30 years older than she is. she is now studying medicine and seeing another med student while being a wife and mother to the old guys eight month old son. the other woman married her idiot because she felt obligated since he paid for some sort of surgery her son needed. needless to say, both of these men are clueless to what is really going on. one said "comparison is a great education", meaning once they got here and saw who they were with and what was available to them, they quickly "upgraded" while still using the idiots for room and board while waiting to get the necessary time in for citizenship.

all i can say is, you folks who are rushing things better know what you are doing and what can happen once you bring a woman you hardly know back to the states.

i look back now at my first trips here and it reminds me of my days as a beginner at skydiving. i didn't have a clue then and look back now, after 2000+ jumps and see everything differently. i can see what i must have looked like to the experienced skydivers when i first started out.

i wish i could make some of you see what i see now, things i can only see because i have spent over a year, going on two, over the past three years here. and i still do not know nearly as much as men like jack bragg and others with even more experience than me.

i think it is written in the tablets of stone, and it should be if it is not: date like you do in the usa. why suddenly become engaged to a stranger when you would never think of it back home?

as good as things are with "j", i am still going to take as much time as i can to get to know her here, and then, if we make it to the states together, we will continue to get to know one another in my home environment without the added pressure of an impending wedding.

i will say one thing, i bet if i do marry this girl, she will be with me to the day i die.  even THAT is not enough for me to jump the gun and marry her now.

take your time guys..  spend as much time as you can getting to know your lady. if it takes several trips over time, it is far better than regretting  your haste down the road when you have far more to lose.

having said all this, my first lady, svetlana, went to the states to see a man she spent 2 days with here in ukraine. i ran into her on my flight home one trip. she did tell me she would not marry the guy unless she felt she could love him.. she called me (from her new home is the states) when the bombs went off in sharm el sheik since we had spent a week there together (she told me it was the best trip of her life). she ended up marrying the guy but she didn't sound too enthused about it. i think (and this is not ego speaking) she would rather be with me, even now.

i will repeat, you would not think of marrying a stranger in the usa, what makes you think this will be any different?

and to those of you who are cheerleaders out there, encouraging these men to make foolish decisions, shame on you.

 

[Photo Guy]

Robert,
Good (continued) luck with j!

Let's talk about statistics. ...It's hard to do, since I have NO statistics, only random personal accounts that I've heard over the years.

Here's my point: I have heard about couples who have fallen in love in a very short time together, and have gone on to live happily ever after.

There doesn't seem to be much of a connection between the amount of time dating before marriage and the resulting success of an ensuing marriage. In other words, dating for years will not necessarily result in a happier more solid  marriage, compared with a very short dating period.

I think there are guys and gals who should take it slowly and with more caution. That can be prudent advice, but it does not allow for the kind of people or type of couple that can more easily perceive that they have indeed met their match, and are aware of it after a short time with each other.

I'd like to see the statistics on this subject. I did see one author's study that showed something like 70% of marriages that began as 'love at first sight', surprisingly resulted in good solid marriages.

Of course, a hasty BLIND decision will rarely yield good results.
I'll give you that. There are many degrees of perception.   Doug

[anono]

hi doug, yes, i have to agree with you somewhat.

my maternal grandfather went to a edwardsville-collinsville basketball game at the turn of the last century and met my grandmother. she was 14 at the time and not able to date until she was 16. grandpa waited two years and sent her a letter on her 16th birthday and asked her out.

they had three daughters and a son, apparently happily married for 63 years until he died.

but of course that was a different time, some 100 years ago.

on a different note, those of you coming over here may want to consider bringing good quality comfortable earplugs or noise reducers. with the exception of the infamous "palace" i rented in the past, each and every flat i have stayed in, no matter where in ukraine (and it is becoming a considerable amounts of flats) someone in the building renovating a flat. this morning i woke to a hammering just above my room at 8am. it did not help that i went to bed at 04:30

without fail, every flat i have every stayed in had this going on.

[BC]

Photo,

Good topic for another thread.

Won't mess around much here with it but will say it's like this:

The guy that walks into the casino for the first time drops a couple of silver dollars and wins a million never to return again is the lucky guy.

The guy who frequents casinos to find his luck will statistically be a looser in the end even if he wins 'big' from time to time. Besides, very few can really afford to walk in those flashy doors.

That said..

Most of the folks around here who were 'lucky' and found a  good prospective partner on the first shot were not actively looking for a RW in the first place.

Those actively seeking a RW who think they got lucky the first time around are another breed, comparable to the guy frequenting the casino.

Luck just doesn't work that way no matter how much you rationalize.

Anono is doing it right. He's building choices and making decisions based on his experiences like a good businessman.  His manly appendage is not a supermagnet sticking to every piece of scrap lying around. Every trip he makes raises his chance of real success finding a good initial match. If and when he does it's the work he and his mate invest afterwards that either makes it or breaks it.

Some get lucky.. the rest will have to really work hard.

Never, ever count on being that lucky guy.

That's life, no if's and's or butts.

[anono]

wow BC, well said! i wish i could have come up with that.

it is a thought that has been circulating through that nearly empty chamber sitting on my neck, for those who met and married the first lady who came around (and it worked) were simply lucky. i bet, for each time that works, there are hundreds, if not thousands that do not.

[anono]

ps, here i am sitting here typing away at RWD and my "j" is making breakfast.

this never happened back home.

not to mention i do not have to lift a finger (i do volunteer) to help cook, clean or say i want sex.

it just happens like magic :dude:

i forgot to add, she is doing all this in her thong

[Bruno]

i forgot to add, she is doing all this in her thong

I don't believe you !!! What about some evidence ? A picture can certainly rise the traffic on RWD :D:D

Welcome back...

Anono, i agree with you for the fast marriage, i have know one... but you method is not possible for everybody... several cannot stay several month in Ukraine... but i think that a minimum of 2 or 3 trip are needed... remember what have happen at my second trip in Ukraine with Galina...  

And about trip, one week is certainly very short...

[anono]

hi bruno, i wish i could accomodate you but she has steadfastly refused to let me photograph her nude, even in her thongs or bra. (even if i say "it's just for me". smart lady).

now i will post what i just wrote offline:

after making my last post, i turned around to see my nearly naked "j" had made an amazing breakfast (now lunchtime) out of a few eggs, onions, and tomatos. maybe some of you know what lavash is, a thin bread, similar to what they make a "wrap" out of in the states. she whipped all these things together, made a wrap out of it and then seared it in a skillet.

as i was sitting there looking at her, marveling at how good this all tastes, and thinking just how unreal this all is, she turns around and asks, "coffee"?

when the food settles and digests a bit, i'm absolutely postive an afternoon of great sex is next.

she looks across the table at me with such loving eyes, nothing of which i have ever seen back home (ok, well, there were a few ladies that seemed mesmerized back then, but they are not here now...:-)

i tell her i am going to post just how great all this is and she just looks at me, turns away in subtle embarassment, as if to say "why tell anyone about us"?

it does not get much better than this.

[Bruno]

Good post who show the best periode in a family life... the courting periode... when both partner take care of each other...

The real challange is keep it so good after the marriage... maybe it is the main reason that you don't hurry for marry

[anono]

hi bruno, the longest term relationship i had was almost eight years in duration. this was when i was 19-20 years old. i have had a few others that last almost five years. i never did marry and i think part of that may be the reason they last. i did not make the ultimate provider statement to them and the world. they knew they could not take me for granted.

i think a long term marriage is possible when both people understand this delicate balance.

here is more i just typed offline:

a little while after we ate, i returned to the kitchen to wash the dishes. i figured she cooked, i could at least do the dishes. she beat me to it.

later, as we were lying on the couch/bed, i asked her if she wanted some coffee, with the thought i would boil the water and make us a cup. she about bolted out of bed thinking i wanted her to make me some coffee.

i also had a call from a friend of mine who is in kiev visiting a few of the ladies he is interested in. one came to visit him from zaporojhe. a seemingly good lady. well, they went walking and sure enough, they end up in a shoe store. to make along story short, she was perfectly willing to let him buy her a pair of shoes, priced at over $500. this was after he already bought her $100 worth of cosmetics and stockings that he wanted to buy for her.

i had a similar experience some time back with a lady who came to kiev without a jacket. she wanted me to buy her a jacket and when i refused, she said i was being "malicious" towards her. i think many of these women purposely come to kiev with their old shoes or without a clothing article they will then "need" because it is chilly or the soles are worn out and their feet hurt.

all this did was serve to remind me how lucky i am to have found "j". a few days ago when i was getting some benjamins out of my money belt, i let her see about $2000 worth of franklins. she clanced over and it may as well of been monopoly money, she showed absolutely no interest. earlier, when i needed to change some dollars into grivna, i gave her a franklin and she looked at me like why are you giving this to me? she left it on the table and when we left to go to the vokzal i had to pick it up and put it in her purse, explaining that should she need a train ticket to come to kiev to see me later in the month, she will have enough, or to use it for her phone or whatever else she needs.

i am reminded how her english teacher told me how lucky i was to find a lady who is not "spoiled", how she never complains of being tired like the other girls in her english classes. i am also reminded of what some of my other friends ladies say to them after meeting the two of us, saying to my friend how lucky i am to have found a lady like "j". one remarked how you simply do not find ladies like this very easily anymore.

when i first met "j" in the spring, i sent an SMS to her and asked her how she could know so quickly that she loves me. her reply was "come to me and i will show you".

she has been been doing nothing but ever since.

i have some work to do for the company i invested a little money in and i go to kiev alone tonight on the train. she is anxious to return to her work as a clothing designer. she simply loves her job.

she is not in the least argumentative, she never frowns unless i am teasing her about not having relations with her or looking at other ladies "popkas". i told her i am a man and men look, i am just being honest about it. her reply; "i know".

i read a profile earlier today when i was going through my email and the lady wrote "fidelity to a man is like a cage to a tiger". this monogamy stuff is not natural, this is a fact. nothing like a woman who understands this. ;-)

anyway, the more time i spend with this lady and the more i see how most of the agency women behave, the more i realize how truly lucky i am.

having said this, i am still taking my time. i will see just how rare this woman is by observing others.

i do want "j" to come to the states for a visit in the spring or early summer. she has no problems with taking time herself. she is perfectly content that we are together.

today was a very nice early fall day, not warm but not cold. the sun is shining and the leaves are turning colors.

soon we will pack or things and relax while waiting for 22:00 to roll around and then it is off to the vokzal and kiev for me. "j" returns to work monday. the night before, which was our first night back from crimea, she did go home to spend the night and she her mother. she told me she stayed up until 04:00 telling her about our trip.

on the way back from krym, we saw a dead woman lying in the road that had been hit by a car (cars have the right of way here, not pedestrians, it is the only way you can look at it and survive). "j" told me that only a week before i came back to ukraine, she had missed her mini bus to work by a few minutes. turns out it hit another car head on at high speed, five killed in the mini bus, all in the front where she sits. all four in the car were killed. nine people total, seven in the hospital.

i guess it just wasn't her time.

[KenC]

Anno,

Thanks for the peek into your current trip.  Your words bring back many memories for me.  I agree with taking your time.  I did and things have worked well for us.  I was tickled by your post of:

i do want "j" to come to the states for a visit in the spring or early summer. she has no problems with taking time herself. she is perfectly content that we are together.

[/font]I brought Lena to America with no promise of marriage.  As a matter of fact, marriage was never ever mentioned by her or me.  After we did marry, Lena confessed that she had almost daily conversations with her Mom regarding our potential marriage .  Her Mom would always ask, if I had mentioned anything about us getting married.  So, even though "j" isn't saying much to you about it, be sure that it is on her mind all the time.  Some girls are just smart enough to know when not to apply the pressure.  Best of luck to you.

KenC

[Journeyman]

Anno,

I agree completely.  My first RW fiancee in 2001 came about through the one-trip-wonder phenomenon.  Of course, I had made a mistake, big mistake, and ended up paying dearly for it. I returned after a while, determined to take my time -- and to treat it more as though I was dating locally.  

Purposefully dragging out the courtship has been a good thing for me.  In my last relationship, even though her family couldn't do enough for us (even inviting me to stay in their home for weeks, bringing me to parties with friends, etc.), my extended time with her -- 4 long visits over 11 months -- did give me the opportunity to realize that, ultimately, she was quite spoiled.  She had kept her demands under control throughout my second visit with her, but it started to show more on my third visit.  On my fourth visit, I asked her mother, "What can I do to keep your daughter happy in life?"  Her mother replied in a rather resigned and also embarrassed way . . . "Buy her things."  

On that fourth trip, I had brough my girlfriend and her family hundreds upon hundreds of dollars of gifts.  Yet, she wanted more.  In fact, demanded more.  No sign of that on my first or second visit.  And only a little bit more on the third.  But, after a cumulative amount of face-time with her amounting to about 10 or 11 weeks, the REAL her came out, finally.  Her real character and interest in me could no longer be suppressed.  

I now always remember the words of my sister, who, when we were in college a quarter-century ago said it best . . . "A girl is going to be able to be on her best behavior for about a month, maybe two, but after that, you will see the real her."  It applies in America, and it applies in the FSU.  And, obviously, that means TIME.  Lots of face-time.  Not just letters or phone calls.  At this point, I'd say that a even a guy who made 2 or 3 trips to the FSU before getting married is rather lucky if he is later finding himself in a truly happy and enduring marriage.  

Journeyman

[KenC]

I now always remember the words of my sister, who, when we were in college a quarter-century ago said it best . . . "A girl is going to be able to be on her best behavior for about a month, maybe two, but after that, you will see the real her." It applies in America, and it applies in the FSU. And, obviously, that means TIME. Lots of face-time. Not just letters or phone calls. At this point, I'd say that a even a guy who made 2 or 3 trips to the FSU before getting married is rather lucky if he is later finding himself in a truly happy and enduring marriage.

Journeyman

I used to have a "6 month rule" while dating AW.  I knew that I wouldn't see the "real" woman until right around the 6th month of the relationship.  A woman could keep up all kinds of false fronts for a while, but 6 months is about the maximum.  I think it is the same or similar with RW too.  Unless, as you pointed out, the time is passing and your only communication is phone or emails.

KenC

[Goombah]

Evia surprised me again today.  I had requested her to go to bluenile.com and pick a ring style for her engagement ring.

She replied back that normally in her culture this is the mans choice, but that she supposes she would like a gold ring with a small sparkle - nothing that protudes.

An AM would be telling me:  a 1.3 caret vf/vf stone - anything less would be insulting...

Kevin

[jb]

Goombah,

Welcome to the world of RWs.

I have purchased for my wife several stones that measure in excess of 2.5 - 3 carats, rings, pendants, earings, etc., and she refuses to wear them unless I stand over her with a whip.  She prefers the simple gold band that simply says; "I'm married".

I was trained by AW, it is hard to be re-trained by a good RW.

[ConnerVT]

I was trained by AW, it is hard to be re-trained by a good RW.

Yes, but the retaining is an enjoyable experience... 

[Journeyman]

I now always remember the words of my sister, who, when we were in college a quarter-century ago said it best . . . "A girl is going to be able to be on her best behavior for about a month, maybe two, but after that, you will see the real her." It applies in America, and it applies in the FSU. And, obviously, that means TIME. Lots of face-time. Not just letters or phone calls. At this point, I'd say that a even a guy who made 2 or 3 trips to the FSU before getting married is rather lucky if he is later finding himself in a truly happy and enduring marriage.

Journeyman

I used to have a "6 month rule" while dating AW. I knew that I wouldn't see the "real" woman until right around the 6th month of the relationship. A woman could keep up all kinds of false fronts for a while, but 6 months is about the maximum. I think it is the same or similar with RW too. Unless, as you pointed out, the time is passing and your only communication is phone or emails.

KenC
[/quote]


KenC,

Yes, shortly after my college days, as my career was beginning and I was getting shorter on time, and I began to apply something close to 6-month standard also.  It works the same now too.  In college, I would be meeting with a girl (maybe a potential girlfriend) for 2 to 6 hours a day (and sometimes much more;)).  Classes together, studying at student union, and getting a beer and pizza later on.  Almost every day.  That enabled a very rapid learning curve.  That was not always possible as my nascent career began to consume more and more of my time (as was true for virtually all of us).  

When I have made a second trip back to meet an FSU lady in whom I have some real interest, I usually arrange things with her for her to take a holiday from work, and to spend 24 hours a day with me, and up to a week's time.  I rent a 3-room flat, and we get to know each other very quickly.  That makes my experience in the FSU a little more similar to what I experienced in college.  Constant, 24/7 "togetherness."  As the old saying goes, if you want to get to know someone really well, really fast . . . take a trip with them.  That is what it is like.  

For example, if I have met a gal from Kherson, and then arrange to later meet her in Kiev, it would usually take me only 3 or 4 days max to learn if she had major issues.  I began to call that my 100-hour rule.  However, if she passed that test, we stayed together.  The next phase of "due diligence" is, however, more challenging and time-consuming.  That is what ends up taking a month or two of face-time.  That amount of time together tends to do 3 important things:  (1) confirm attraction, (2) reveal character, and (3) establish general compatibility.  But even then, you still barely know her.

The time and money requirements to pursue a sensible dating effort in the FSU simply should NOT be pursued by most men.  If you are into six figures and can travel 4 or more times a year, OK, give it a shot.  Otherwise, you had better be either very lucky, or not expect too much out of the effort (relative to your own situation).

Journeyman

[anono]

<sup>hello kenc, journeyman, and of course jb and others, i can only hope that some of the men reading your additions to my thread take them seriously. i spent some time (i.e. drinking beer) with a ukrainian/british guy. i think he was born in ukraine to ukrainian parents and then lived in england or something like that. he said , in general, after about a month, you see the real woman. he was explaining to me how it is all a game, the men after one thing, the women after another..  if some of you do not know what those "things" are, you should not be considering coming here. the women will eat you alive.

i am going to briefly talk about what i am doing and then post what i typed offline. i posted how i read in one ladies profile "fidelity to a man is like a cage to a tiger". i could not agree more, if i am going to voluntarily lock myself in a cage, i am going to be sure the lady in the cage with me is one i will want to be with for the duration.

i do not think i can do better than "j" in regards to her heart, her sincerity and her apparent love for me. i do not think it is possible to find a better lady in regards to where her heart is and she is NOT spoiled. i came here to find as close to my ideal as possible. i found the ideal of where a woman's heart is in "j". she is not my ideal in her looks. she is damned close, but i have always had a  smaller or thinner framed lady than "j". my thinking now is, i can change that by working out and exercising with her, but it would be easier if i found what i am looking for with the looks i prefer (by looks, i mean the entire physical package, body and all) and the heart i already found. but, if i had to make a choice, i would take the heart over the looks. i would rather have a woman in love with me than one i love for her looks. so i am taking my time for a few reasons. one is outlined above by journeyman and kenc. nothing can replace face time and simple time spent together to get to the real person. this goes for the lady as well as for us., the second is to see if i can find the same heart in a woman who also has the looks i prefer. i know many people who have seen "j" or photos of her would think i am crazy, but those of you who have spent some time over here and see the small popkas everywhere you look, i just do not like wishing my "j's" ass was a small as the ones i constantly see on the streets. problem is, i'm not meeting those small asses and many of those small asses belong to working girls or women who do not have a heart, or an attitude no one would want to deal with. so, if over time i see "j" is the best i am going to do, i will be more at ease with my choice and i will just endeavor to work out with "j" and get her down to a size more appealing to me. i know it sounds shallow but i came here to find my ideal, not just the first lady with a wonderful heart. i want the looks too.

i actually think my search is over, but i can take my time with "j" and keep my options open until the time i feel is right and i see "j" is the real thing, which i already believe she is. if i find another lady with huge potential, i can do what i did back home which is...DATE..  i did not marry the first lady with a good heart back home or the first lady with the looks i like. if i had, i would be like a lot of others out there, divorced. it also gives me something to do while i see how things go with "j". as i also just said, if i choose "j" in the end, i will feel better about my choice and i will not be second guessing myself wondering if i could have done better.

i will post what i wrote offline..  my experiences in kiev just underline how good i have it with "j". i may travel some but "j" raised the bar so high, my expectations are low that i will surpass what i have found in "j". the only way i think one could do sany better is to live here and meet a woman on the street (unlikely a kiev street) and NOT a woman from these agencies..i think there are very few, if any, very good looking women at the agencies who we have not turned into professional daters, something my offline typing will address:</sup>

there are so many things to say, i may just write my thoughts randomly.

first off, a lot of AM are chumps over here. it is getting to the point that a lot of the AM are being viewed as stupid and many of these "ladies" are taking advantage of the idiots who come over here and start spending money on these hard bodies thinking it'll buy them. they will gladly take your money but you are getting nothing in return. they are laughing at you behind your back, taking the items you bought back to the shop and getting your money back and keeping it for themselves.

when a ukrainian man buys a present for a lady, sex is already implied. the UM is going to get laid in return. if an AM lets a woman get away with receiving a present and there is no sex in return, the AM is looked upon as stupid. if you doubt me, go ahead and spend your money you dumbasses and see what you get in return. i have actually been told this by an agency owner when my russian speaking american friend and i have visited her agency and we speak about the professional daters.

i posted once about a lady i met in the train/airline ticket agency just off khresatick. when i told her i was not buying any gifts for a lady i was not having close relations with, it was the end of her interest. when i told another AM who lives here about running into this lady at the billiards hall the other night, he said "oh, you mean alina." he told me basically the same story. took her out to eat and she ate more than one can imagine and she is as thin as a rail. she then tried to get taxi money out of him. i saw her with a chump who had to be in his 60's and i am sure she will milk the guy for everything she can before and if he ever gets a clue.

as leslie has posted before, it is becoming a cottage industry for these women to act or to claim to be "traditional ukrainian women" and be engaged to your sorry ass as well as several others, always withholding sex and pretending to be "traditional". the idiots here who actually believe this crap..well, to you i quote barnum, "there is a sucker born every minute" and i will add that most are born in the usa.

i do not know how to convey to you in no uncertain terms that these "traditional" ladies DO NOT EXIST in the sense that a lot of you clowns think. i am purposely being harsh because the clue bat has not been swinging lately and it is getting worse by the day over here.

kiev has got to be the worst city for trying to find a sincere woman. yes, if you are dating  the "6's" and below, you MIGHT find a lady who is sincere. my friend met a women in her 30's a bit overweight, less than a "7" in the face and she had an attitude approaching that of the fat hogs we see in walmart's back home. she thought she deserved the best and man, i will tell you, she was lucky my friend even asked to meet her.

the pickings, if any, are slim to none in kiev anymore..the best women are highly doubtful they will ever meet an AM worth meeting. i do have a close friend who i think has found an exception and if he ever decides to post about it, he will be better able to tell you how it came about. now this friend of mine is the exception to most of these idiots who come over here and get engaged to a woman they just met. he knows what he is doing and has his eyes wide open. i have met this lady and i think she is the real deal but i also think my friend was extremely lucky to have met her and i also think that because this friend is an exceptional man, he has a chance with this woman where others would not.

i cannot tell you how many times i have heard a woman tell me about some idiot american who, ---on a first meeting---  has told her he could buy her a car, buy her a flat and so on..these ladies marvel at how willing these men are to spend huge amounts of money on a complete stranger, hoping their money will buy them a woman. it sure isn't going to buy them love.

there is a lot of crap going around about how we men are supposed to "earn" or "win" a ladies heart.   can i sell you a bridge in brooklyn?  i did not have to do a thing to "earn" or "win" over "j's" heart. in fact, all i had to do was show up.  i did NOT have to buy her presents, i did NOT have to win her heart. as donna pedro and some of the other U/RW have said here, if a U/RW likes you, not only will you know, SHE WILL CHASE YOU. "j" had a target painted in me before i even met her. she has been relentless in her show of care and love from the start. the other day i was spooning some instant coffee out of the jar i bought when i was in kharkov with her and inside there was this little piece of paper; "i love you"..with hearts drawn on it and "your j".

i know you are jealous but damn it guys, we have no one to blame but ourselves for what is going on over here. the idiots that come here spending money on these women have created these "professional daters". it has become a situation where the women are seeing what they can get out of the men for nothing. there are even those who will come here to visit you from another city, spend 3-4 days with you in bed and then the 1st shop where they see a pair of $400 shoes, they will try and get you to buy them even if they do not fit..why? so as soon as you leave they can return them, saying they do not fit and get YOUR money back..i saw this happen to a friend of mine.  good thing he wasn't dumb enough to buy her the shoes...  but for every guy like him there are 50 like some of the idiots here who will.

this is why i say SHAME ON YOU, shame on the guys coming over here thinking money will buy them "love" and shame on you guys who cheer them on.... shame on you one day, one week, one month wonders, it takes MORE than that..YOU HAVE NO CLUE how smart these ladies are and how stupid they think YOU are...they are laughing among themselves at how easy it is to separate you from your dollars....and to those of you who are thinking; "well, my so and so hasn't asked for anything yet" (probably because you are already offering it to her) JUST WAIT.

the window of opportunity is closing at an alarming rate, but just like the ozone layer and greenhouse gases, go ahead and be in denial and think what you want..you have been educated and if you still fall for this crap...like i said, wanna buy a bridge,  you blithering idiot?

i think there are good women to be found (my J being proof of this) but it is not happening in kiev. eurovision and the visa situation has changed all this in the last 6 months. a MILLION more people have visited ukraine in the same time period since the visa requirement was suspended. go online and read the "kiev post".  there is a three part story on how ukraine (kiev mostly) has become a sex destination like thailand...  the women here know what is going on and are taking full advantage of it..the women at the agency are out with one guy for lunch and another for dinner..and if the guys are stupid, both are giving the lady money thinking they are "good" women who "need help" and somehow you are the lucky idiot.

i wrote to the lady who i met at the ticket agency and saw with the 60yr old idiot at the billiard hall..i basically asked her, since she has a price attached to her, and i am interested in close relations with her, if we could make a deal. i did this to provoke her. it was hilarious the reply. she continued to act as if she did not know what i was talking about and pretended to be a sincere lady looking for love and marriage..that is, if you are a millionaire willing to spend money on her for nothing in return but her company to dinner and billiards. you can get that and more by calling a good escort company. the word out on the street, unknown to her, that she is a professional dater. my experience with her, along with that of another guy i know who lives here is proof enough.

i spoke with my friend rostick..i have known this guy since may 2003. i told him how it is all about money in kiev. he said of course. kiev is only a good place to bring your lady who lives somewhere else. my advice to those of you who are looking for a wife, the further away from kiev you get, the better. but at the same time, the girl who wanted the $400 pair of shoes (something she would NEVER dream of buying herself) was from dneperprodzinzk.

a related story: this woman's sister was with my friend and the three of them were in a taxi..the sister lives with a ukrainian man...  she was telling my friend a story about how she found a pair of sunglasses for $400 but a friend found the same pair for $100. now all she needed to do was find someone she could "borrow" $100 from..  did she even consider asking the man she was living with and sleeping with every night? the guy she was cooking and cleaning for? are you crazy???  do you think for a minute this ukrainian guy would give even his own girl $100 for a pair of sunglasses? even if he had it??  i have a bridge for sale....

the taxi driver heard my friend and the lady talking about the $400 shoes. once they dropped of the women, the taxi driver told my friend, had he bought the shoes, the women would still be laughing at how stupid he was...

i once met a very attractive 33 yr old woman who was divorced. she wanted out of ukraine, saying "i cannot go 'up' here". i asked why she was divorced. she told me, her rich ukrainian husband would not give her any money. even when she had some medical bills from a hospital stay, he told her to get it from her father.

and them some of you idiots come over here offering them money for nothing....

no wonder i am running into this left and right...

i have a bridge for sale......

 

 

 

[Admin]

OK - so here is the current status.

I have trimmed all the posts from the point where the report began to get off-track. I need to take at least some (and maybe more) responsibility for the out-of-control spiral - but what is done is done.

The topic is now again open.

Robert is free to continue his T/R - or not, as he chooses.

I *do* expect for the report to be free of broad-scale insulting commentary. Make the points without insult. Simple.

- Dan

[corp]

Anono, your posts are always interesting to read.

I feel the same way about these guys that fly over there and play "Rich Man" for a week or two.
I think this is really what it boils down to for the most part.

An average american guy would have to buy an AW/ girl friend a car or trip to Europe to play "big shot"  and most guys are not willing or able to do that but when they get to Ukraine suddenly on their average income they feel instantly wealthy, they can play "Rich american" for 500- 1000 Bucks... but as you point out, what they don't realise is they are simply making an ass of themselves.
I have never understood what it is about some guys that feel the need to hand money over to a woman they are not married to. I think it comes down to either lack of confidence or they are just silly with money.

BUt there is another group of Guys running around over there in a position to be laughed at, it's older guys hunting girls barely out of their teens.
(I know you are not a teenager yourself) share what you have seen and heard in this regard.

[anono]

fair enough dan, peace

i know i use strong words but as i said in my post strong words are not enough for some of these guys. what they are doing is ruining it for the rest of us and i surely do not stand alone in that observation. i have had other foreigners who saw i was able to be approached who complain bitterly about the men i am speaking of here. they are always american men who they are complaining about. euroopean men, even those with some money know better than we do. american men stand alone in the way they are with their money over here and the idea that it will buy them a woman (who isn't a working girl of course).

all it does over here is make the women think american men are stupid (their own words, not mine) and/or that money can buy them anything.

i had one friend of mine offer 10 grivna (2 bucks to those who do not know what a grivna is) to the 6 or 7 year old sister of a date i took to the movies. the little girl refused. i later asked my friend why he did that. he thought he was being charitable and felt sorry for her. i asked him how he would feel if some people from a country richer than america came over here, took a look at him and felt sorry for him that he was not filthy rich and tried to hand him some money out of pity...   GET THE POINT?

at least this little girl was too proud to take money from a stranger but what will happen once she grows up and sees the same thing over and over? do you think they look at us as some great benefactor? no, they think we are stupid. rich ukrainian men are not walking around giving money to strangers.

[anono]

corp, you bring up a good subject. yesterday i met a 20yr old. before your eyes roll, read on...

i did this out of curiosity. she apparently wrote to me and i wanted to find out if she did write to me or her agency did. then i wanted to find out why. i also have pretty much decided "j" is the best lady for me and now i am just cruising. this is the first meeting i have had since i last saw "j" and this is a lady i tried to meet in the spring/summer but she was on a trip to crimea.

turns out, she claims she wrote to me (i say 'claims' because she could be working with the agency. i have learned to trust no one). she has a car and a flat. she is a fitness trainer and her photos are those of a beauty. she does look great in person but i can find a flaw in anyone and anything. she had a mouth and teeth that were just a bit off which took from her looks (i use perfection as my bar). she is easily a high "8" approaching a "9". many would regard her as more.

she did not seem to be too thrilled to meet me, but i told her from the start our age difference was too great and i explained why i wanted to meet her. she says she works at a high scale fitness club, very high. she says some people join for the prestige and do not even work out. i explained i do not join any club for a reason like that and i further explained i do not waste my money. the fitness clubs over here are on the expensive side and i think she was put off that i would be so "miserly". i am sure she sees her share of rich men both at work and at the agencies.

she seems to make a very good living even by our standards. here is a 20yr old with her own car and her own flat. by her account, she was in turkey once, crimea a few times and some other vacation spot, all within two months. she sure does not seem to be working too hard. when she does work, it is from 1pm to 10pm.

would i see her again if she was interested? probably, but i would not have any unrealistic expectations that it would work. i say this after having seen a ukrainian man at least 40lbs overweight and in his 50's with a young beauty that was no more than 20. it might work here but it is not going to work back home, not even in my small village. i feel i am pushing it with "j", she is 22. she turns 23, 13 days before i turn 50. i think i found the exception and might go into why in another post.

i did have a 24 yr old lady who is living with a 27yr old ukrainian man who told me (when i asked why she agreed to meet me) that she finds men my age more interesting. who knows.

[Bruce]

Anno - continued luck and great thread.  As far as I am concerned nobody is more of an expert on the current state of looking for a sincere woman to date and possibly marry from Ukraine.  Your "I have a bridge for sale" post above should be read, re-read and memorized (though it is a bit repetative "newbies" should memorize it anyway) by anyone involved in the process of searching for a woman to establish a relationship with and hopefully marry from the FSU.  From what I understand you are saying that guys have their best chance of meeting a sincere pretty really available woman far from a big city, especially Kiev, and even then the chance of meeting a sincere pretty girl is slim to none in Ukraine.  

I believe Russia is the better choice for the average man to search because of the character issue and perhaps because it is so huge.   Belarus may even be better, but I have no experience there.  I am just going on what my wife believes - though the whole Chernobyl fallout pattern would scare the heck out of me and kept me from ever considering visiting Belarus during the time I was searching. 

So far from everything you have written about "J," she is doing everything right.  Are you sure she is not so desperate to get here on your $ when you fly her over even on a tourist visa that she is giving you exactly what you perceive a girl should be doing?   In my mind  from what you are saying she is not playing you in any way but likes you for you.  You are taking your time and seeing how things work out.   It sounds to me that if things remain as they are she is well worth getting over here on a tourist visa now that you have that option (its about time). 

Physical attraction is of course extremely important.  Think how much better it feels to have a 7, 8 or 9 in your "J" (I forgot what number you give her) that is growing, eager, developing herself and will most probably love you for the rest of her life than the "10" you rate better physically now, has little else to offer and will whither over the next 5 to 10 years.   One negative on the butt issue is that after a woman has a child / children they tend to put on 5 pounds and the butt is usually the last thing to come back.  If she has the right attitude and you get her working on it now I'm sure she'll be the 0 - 1 / maximum size two you want and keep that size over time. 

For most guys age really is a huge thing to consider, especially when looking at the differences over time.  You really are one of the exceptions to the age advice rule.  Remember, its biologic and not chronologic age that really counts.  Your 50 is probably an average guys 30, so in my mind you and "J" are solidly in the ballpark.  The only thing that you should remember is that she is very young mentally / experience wise at I believe 22 soon to be 23 and will act very childlish over the course of the near future.  Chances are you will see more childish behavior out of her on this side of the Atlantic, so I hope you continue to have the foresight to put up with it when it occurs.