To Tell The Truth

[BillyB]

America makes deals with other countries to accept their persecuted. Reagon once made a deal with Gobachev to accept their persecuted Christians. A lot of Soviets found God at that time too.    It's possible Alex and Olga fell into some type of catagory that was appproved at the discretion of the folks in the embassy.

[Ronnie]

I don't know what devices were used by the state department officer but I think she was acting on her emotion, impressed by the naivete and innocence of the family...probably not wanting to wake up in the middle of the night hearing the young boy's voice over and over asking why America wouldn't let his family move there.  It would be great to track down that lady and ask her why she did what she did and how.

Each Foreign service officer is unique, that goes without saying but it does appear they or their supervisors have tremdous discretion.
My wife and I met a woman about 58 years old at an ESL class.  She was from Belarus and was living with her son and DIL who won the GC lottery.  The DIL later became a close friend with my wife and actually got my wife her first job at JC Penney.  The DIL explained that they did not sponsor the MIL.  The MIL had gone to some agency or NGO who found a way for her to get a refugee petition approved.  That way was for her to find a relative in her genealogy who could be said to be Jewish (though she herself was decidedly Christian). 

Thus as a "member" of a persecuted group the MIL was able to come to the US, draw welfare and Social Security benefits.  I have no idea how any of this stuff happens, but it tells me somebody out there in the state department has a lot of leeway.

[mendeleyev]

The allowance of 'Christians" was a concern of first Jimmy Carter and then Ronald Reagan.  Over both administrations the actually number allowed to leave was very small and those few who made it out were vetted in both from Moscow (USA Embassy) and by the State Department. 

Since the persecution had to be provable as long-standing it was very easy to weed out someone who claimed to have "found God" suddenly for sake of expediency.

The state department for decades was more interested in the plight of Jews who wanted to leave Russia.  Far more effort was expended in that area.  The total number of Jews who were granted exit by the CCCP as compared to those who applied to leave was also small.

Soviet citizens would have considered it foolish to suddenly "find God and want to leave."  Just wanting to leave meant having your name placed on a variety of unhelpful lists, with the loss of job and benefits as just the beginning of your troubles.  And if you didn't get to leave, life as you knew it would never be the same.

[BillyB]

Soviet citizens would have considered it foolish to suddenly "find God and want to leave."  Just wanting to leave meant having your name placed on a variety of unhelpful lists, with the loss of job and benefits as just the beginning of your troubles.  And if you didn't get to leave, life as you knew it would never be the same.

You mean staying in the CCCP wasn't any trouble at all? People wanted out and the population in the FSU is still declining even now although things are better. over 5000 FSU families living in the greater Seattle area. Most are Baptists. One Ukrainian lady told me when she was in school, because of her faith, she had to wear a label signifying she was different from the others. She and others had to have secret meetings in the woods to practice their faith. She and others I talked in the States said people did find God just to get out of the FSU and they took the spots of some who actually qualified. I'm not making htis up, it's from the mouths of the people who experienced persecution and got a ticket out. How can those who never been persecuted  prove to the embassy it's happened to them? Who better knows what type of persecution Christians went through than the bullies themselves.

Mendeleyev, you may not believe some Russian people would fake being a Christian to get out of the country but certainly some will marry loser to get out. If people can't lie and steal to get what they want, they can do most anything.

[mendeleyev]

Billy, you're mixing up time frames.  First, for a Jew or Christian to request permission to leave the CCCP, it was a free ticket to increased persecution, loss of job, loss of apartment, and loss of medical and social benefits.   No, of course I don't believe that people claimed to be something they weren't while knowing:
1)  The chance of being given an EXIT visa by the Soviet government was slim to nil.
2)  Once they'd made such a request, their life went straight to hell.


Billy, I believe wholeheartedly the story of the lady you mentioned.  But surely you understand that leaving the Soviet Union was a long and difficult process for citizens like her?  Without knowing her, we can safely assume that (if her family left the CCCP during the Soviet period) her family endured additional persecution because of a desire to leave and the process to leave was very long and frustrating.

Neither do I dispute that Seattle has a large Russian population.  It's known for that.  So does Sacramento, New York, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Chicago, Philly and San Diego.  But the vast of those folks arrived here AFTER the breakup of the CCCP.

If you'll look at the statistics of who came BEFORE, you'll realize that the large influx arrived since the end of the Soviet Union.  Those people came regardless of religion.

[Ronnie]

I'm sure you're right about what you said Mendeleyev.  That would explain why many of those who left before the break up, mostly Jews but some non-Jews, did so under false pretenses.  My former neighbor, a Russian Jew, left with his wife and son in the early 80s.  He had a former collegue prepare an invitation to a conference in Israel.  Then paid a bureaucrat in Moscow to approve the papers.  The went first to Israel, then to Rome where they filed for asylum.  From Rome to flew to San Francisco and started a new life.  An engineer in Moscow, he became a draftsman in Oakland.  Bought a condo in Newark where they live today.

So, while what you're saying is likely true, those who planned to leave, usually did not announce or make their plans apparent.. That would be my take on it.

I do feel from those I've met, that there is a large number in the cities you mentioned...probably still a majority, who came as asylees/refugees before the break up.  The more recent immigrants seem to disperse more throughout the country.

[Jet]

I'm sure you're right about what you said Mendeleyev.  That would explain why many of those who left before the break up, mostly Jews but some non-Jews, did so under false pretenses.  My former neighbor, a Russian Jew, left with his wife and son in the early 80s.  He had a former collegue prepare an invitation to a conference in Israel.  Then paid a bureaucrat in Moscow to approve the papers.  The went first to Israel, then to Rome where they filed for asylum.  From Rome to flew to San Francisco and started a new life. 

There had been for quite some time, an elaborate network of help co-ordinated through the synagogues in South Florida to facilitate this type of exit (through an intermediate stop in Israel) which helped many hundreds of Russian/Ukrainian Jews find their way to this area, both before and after the breakup.

[BillyB]

If you'll look at the statistics of who came BEFORE, you'll realize that the large influx arrived since the end of the Soviet Union.  Those people came regardless of religion.

Most FSU people I Know in the States didn't come here because they were persecuted but because they were sponsored by relatives who came here because they were persecuted.

You may think that claiming religious persecution is a ticket to hell if they by some chance don't get a visa but having aticket to hell is the exact reason America is accepting them. Perfect. A non beliver can go to a former teacher and bribe her to be a witness that he was bullied by others for his belief. She may not even look down upon him and think he's clever and ask for advice on how to apply to get out herself. Not only has he figured out a way how to get out but he is taking the available visa spot of a believer in which she may not want to see go and get a better life than her. Maybe a guy could bribe a cop and say he was arrested for carrying a bible, which is illegal?

[mendeleyev]

Billy, I apologize but believe we are still talking about two very different time periods.  Today it is pointless for someone to attempt immigration from Russia for religious persecution.

During the Soviet period much persecution existed and yes, it was a ticket to hell for those who applied, especially if denied.  And those who made it had to endure long waits.  Thankfully that number was very small.

If you look at the statistics regarding emigration out of the FSU, demographers describe it in the following waves:
1) The single largest was just after the Russian civil war.  White émigré (Белоэмигрант), is a term used to describe a Russian who emigrated from Russia in the wake of the Russian Revolution and Russian Civil War. Another term popular in Russia is Эмигрант первой волны (first wave émigré).

The term "white émigrés" (белоэмигранты, белая эмиграция) was much more often used in the Soviet Union where it had a strong negative connotation, than by the émigrés themselves, who preferred to call themselves simply "Russian émigrés" (русская эмиграция) or "Russian military émigrés"(русская военная эмиграция) if they participated in the White movement.

Most white émigrés left Russia from 1917 to 1920 (estimates vary between 900,000 and 2 million).  About half made it to the USA.

2) According to a number of sources there were two separate second "waves" between 1945 and 1965.  This first and largest of this second wave of less than 1 million settled primarily in Europe, not the USA.  (Sources: Russian Emigrants: Sharp Elbows, author Kagarlitsky, Boris, English and also East to West Migration: Russian Migrants in Western Europe, by Helen Kopnina. Ashgate, Russian.)

Of the second wave who did reach the USA during those two decades, just over 20,000 (over 20 years) made it to the USA.  Most were Jewish refugees.  (On Immigration and Refugees, Sir Michael Dummett, English; and see also http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/immig/alt/polish3.html)

3) The third wave came during the thaw in the 1970s.  It was hardly a wave at less than 15,000 settling on US shores. 

4) According to the same sources above, today the United States is in midst of the greatest wave of Russian immigration that the nation has ever seen.  Religion is not an issue.  According to a Immigration conference held at UC Berkley (May 2008) one in ever 16 Californian has at least some regular exposure to the use of the Russian language.

Until today, the largest emigration out of Russia ever recorded was before the October revolution.  More than half of the world Jewish population lived in Russia at the end of the 19th century. The year 1881 became the starting point of the mass Jewish emigration from tsarist Russia. (Source:  Jewish emigration from Russia: 1881-2005
Ed. by O.V. Budnitskii; comp. by O.V. Belova...written in Russian).  Most ended in Europe.

[Wienerin]

Wienerin,

The stories I have posted are not fiction they're real.  You can discredit them all you want.  I too don't know how Olga and Alex got visas, "In the interest of the United States."  But they did

I do not doubt (almost ) that they got some kind of visas - since they are here. I also have no doubt - none at all, - that the visas were not immigrant ones - green cards and "in the interest of the United States".

You refer to embassy sites.  I figured they immigrated in the the early nineties.  Are you suggesting there have been no changes in policy or procedures since those days?

I'm not suggesting anything - if I did, it would be rather that the family managed to get here somehow (tourist visa? Low probability for a whole family even end of 80 -early 90s, but I've known a case or two, and don't ask me - paralegal-client priviledge )

I do not "refer" to the embassy sites in the sense that you mean, - I do not need to. However the immigration law - since I've started to so to say practice it in late 80s in StP has not changed that much - as relevant to the issues under discussion. As to the "procedure" - no changes: the INS belongs as ever to Dept. of Justice, the consulate - to the State Dept. and has no ability to issue immigrant visas except those processed and approved by the INS.

As to your comments about Diversity Visa lottery winners.  Now it's you who's going on hearsay.  Winner's health is checked before the visas are awarded and assets are not a qualifier.  They must only have a high school education.  The whole idea is diversity.  There are already other visas for highly-educated and specially-skilled people. 

I do not go on hearsay, and assets ARE an issue. One has to bring to the visa interview proof of being able to support oneself for at least a year (not to become a public charge) or a verifiable job offer, or an affidavite of support.

There have been a few cases where DV lottery winners have been denied greencards once they arrive because the law requires them to be adjusted by the end of the fiscal year.  USCIS doesn't always get them done that fast (surprise, surprise).   Unfortunately, those cases were tried in Federal Court even in the Appeals Court but were lost because the law is plain on the issue.  Maybe it's been changed since those cases, I don't know, I just ran across them in researching immigraton adustment cases.

Please, DV lottery winners cannot be denied GC once they arrived - they arrive with a GC (that is a stamp in their passport saying this - and they get their GCs in the mail pretty quickly) ... if they are denied - it's in the consular interview abroad. 

Back to the stories of the Russian immigrants who came here with nothing but determination.  That is the way immigrants used to come to America. 

They still - at least from the 19 century - needed permission to enter the US, whatever their determination.

America is about self-reliance and self-determination.  It's something that we forget from time to time.

This is how I came here, and how I prospered here - I never forget it.

PS Starting in 1989 I worked as an independent immigration consultant in SPb, helping prepare different cases for the interview in Moscow. Since 1991 I benefited from training by prominent US immigration lawyers, who visited Leningrad (SPb) Jewish Assotiation where I worked by that time. Since 1996, after I got my asylum in the US I worked for a number of US immigration attorneys. I've prepared, drafted various applications, correspondence with the INS, appeals, participated in interviews and court hearings in more than 1000 cases...

[Ronnie]

Wienerin,

You have only one mission it seems on this board;  Discredit that which people have posted armed with nothing more than a volatile concoction of arrogance, ignorance and slight bit of knowledge.

In another thread recently you challenged my comments about the composition of the early Bolsheviks.  I refused to engage you because as a Jew, you obviously cannot have an objective view of that part of history.  I could have referred you to a 1918 letter from the US Ambassador but you would only seek to expouse your greater knowledge on the subject...so I chose to fast forward to the end of the fruitless discussion.

In this case of my acquaintaces, Alex and Olga, you again set yourself up as the expert on a situation where you have zero personal and specific knowledge.  Yet your general experience as a paralegal  makes your opinion definitive!   

BTW, you say you yourself immigrated as an asylee.  Were you persecuted in Russia?  Sounds like you had a good job?  It could well be that Alex and Olga and their boys were given asylum on some grounds, as trumped up as many others.   I did not see any reason to grill them on the minutiae of their legal processing.

What I am confident of is that they didn't get tourist visas and overstay as you have suggested.  That is a very unlikely scenario it seems to me.  Had they done so, this many years after the fact, they would not have had any reason to conceal it having already gained US green cards and citizenship.  They also would likely not have been given tourist visas after they approached the embassy about immigrating.

[Lily]

Ronnie,

Please don't be angry with me, but Wienerin does not seem to appear discreditive or arrogant, at least in her above postings. Her immigration practice,

[Since 1996, after I got my asylum in the US I worked for a number of US immigration attorneys. I've prepared, drafted various applications, correspondence with the INS, appeals, participated in interviews and court hearings in more than 1000 cases... ]

is no way a 'slight bit of knowledge' but a considerable professional expertise.

I enjoyed your story of Alex and Olga. I trust your words, may be because there is no reasons not to trust you Ronnie. If you say they got a visa in the interests  of the US, it probably is so. However, in your story there are definitely some crucial circumstances missing, those that have ultimately lead to that exceptional result. I wonder what it could be. I also wonder whether the immigration officer indeed has that competence to decide on her own to give that kind of visa...

[Ronnie]

Lily,

I'm in no way angry.   Bemused would be a better word.  If we are doubting stories, I doubt the paralegal in question knows much about anything but how to get asylees to the states.  That she admits has been her experience.  She has no basis for a broad knowledge of all means by which the US government admits immigrants.  Her experience, even if we take her word for it, is restricted.

The point of the story I related and the only reason I presented it here was to show the difference between people who trust in the future and have faith in themselves and perhaps their God,  and those who want guarantees that they will be well cared for (by someone else) when they arrive in the States.

[steviej]

It's definitely true, in my experience, and as stated by Mendeleyev (I don't think I spelled that right ), that talking about salaries in Russia is no big deal. It's as common as talking about the weather. The reason? Because there is no history of personal failure or success associated with financial status. For the most part, they even assume people with money are simply corrupt. And in Russia that is very often true. My wife was surprised to learn that in the US, folks consider it impolite to ask how much you earn. I had to teach her that in the Western Protestant culture (for various historical reasons, including theological), that is just not done. During our courtship, though, she never asked me how much I make. I told her in the beginning about my education, and the general ideas about having a professional career, that is, man with a decent salary, good education, good career. But never any specifics about $$$, and anything related to exact amounts was never discussed. But I wasn't really withholding, she just didn't ask.

But, the comments by this guy "Bob", and there's another dysfunctional type around here named something like "Amsbach .." are so negative regarding FSUW, you really have to wonder why they are looking and what they want.

I mean really, you're talking about marriage here, guys! A woman to be your wife, share your life daily, sleep in your bed, confide in, laugh with, etc. To hear a phrase like "disease ridden whore" even come out of anyone's mouth on a forum like this is repulsive, just repulsive. Something just doesn't add up about all that.

These guys don't need an FSU wife (not yet anyway). They need therapy first. But the funny thing about people like that is, will they listen? Nope. Crash and burn, and take someone down with them. Sometimes there's just no way stopping them.

[Zmejka]

After a few seconds of stunned silence, one of the boys spoke up, "Lady, does that mean America doesn't want our family to move there?" 

Then one day the phone rang.  The female voice informing them then their visa application had been approved under a special category - 'In the interest of the United States.'

This is what I found strange and untrue. Like there was a connection between the request of a little boy and issuing visas. If you would have said as you said later

It could well be that Alex and Olga and their boys were given asylum on some grounds, as trumped up as many others.

there would be no questions and disbelief from my side. Because that really could be - they applied for asylum and got it. But in the first variant as you presented it -they didn't apply for anything, a boy asked in his sweet voice about America and lady officer melted and gave some special visas - to satisfy boy's wishes. At least it sounded so for me.

About DV Lottery i meant the same as Wienerin
"if they are denied - it's in the consular interview abroad". I didn't mention denying after the got to the US - because i don't know anything about it. I wrote that not every winner gets his visa at the interview and there're examples of that. The reasons to recent ones i know - a couple got married after they knew they won and taking that their marriage was not false (they lived together before) they didn't pass crossexamination and were denied, reason of denial to the winner was "People smuggling", to his wife - "providing false information".

[KenC]

I found Ronnie's story about Olga, Alex and their boys to be very inspirational.  Maybe it is a bit of a fable, urban ledgen or fairy tale.  I am sure at the very least the telling of the story has been refined or even embellished over the years.  So what?  I for one do not wish to put this story under a microscope for analysis.  I am sure every immigrating family has their own inspirational tale to tell.

I for one wish I could uncover the details of my Father's family trek to America.  How on earth could my Great Grandfather have purchased a 35 acre farm in Michigan while living in Russia?  :noidea: I am sure it would be an interesting story to hear how my own Grandmother was born in Austria while her parents and two other siblings were en-route to America.  And then the whole Ellis Island thing and how did they settle that farm, once they arrived?  How did they live?  How did they survive their first winter in Michigan?  True pioneers in my mind.  And these are not people read about in some history book, they were people I have met in my lifetime!

Nah, I wouldn't probe Ronnie's story too much.  It is just perfect the way it is.
KenC

[Ronnie]

The stories of many immigrants seem incredible to us now. We don't need to pick apart the minor aspects of each story as if to say the whole thing is fiction.  People are real, they got here somehow.  Who are we to question them? Only they were there.

Another couple I met in the bay area left Ukraine before the break up.  They were a young couple with a baby and somehow managed to get permission to leave the USSR, likely through the Jewish "underground" as describe earlier.  They told me how they were pulled from the train at the last stop before crossing the border and sequestered in the train station on some pretense of a paperwork issue with the baby.  They understood that the intent was to get the young couple to pay a bribe to let them leave.  They understood this but couldn't part with the little money they had as they knew they would need every kopek and them some. 

They figured they could wait out the border police.  After 3 days of living in the train station, they realized they would not be able to wait the police out.  So the mother got on the train and as it began to move, the father handed the the baby to the mother and then jumped aboard himself.  The made it out with their money still intact.

I suppose we could pick this story apart as well.  To do so misses the point.  That point being that many people immigrated to America, Canada or Australia with not much more than the clothes they were wearing and made a life once they arrived.  I therefore have little regard for the oft-repeated notion that a woman must think about the man's financial assets or income as a prerequisite to leaving her country.

My advice is tell her nothing.. Show her no pictures of anything but yourself (and I don't mean pictures of you in front of your home or your Beemer). 

Keep her expectations low.  Someone once told me, "satisfaction is a function of expectation, not a product of reality."

[Wienerin]

The stories of many immigrants seem incredible to us now. We don't need to pick apart the minor aspects of each story as if to say the whole thing is fiction.  People are real, they got here somehow.  Who are we to question them? Only they were there.

I agree that immigrant stories even of the later wave - from early 90s could seem incredible to most Americans. What I cannot take is the myth creation - in the face of all reason. It's insulting to many people who had the real obstacles to overcome, real dangers, real threats. Your stories fo much beyond being simple fairy-tales. It's well for you to be so credulous and naive, but when you make these involved and clumsy lies a basis for a totally unjustified stand - it's a different story altogether.

I won't go over your second story, it's not worth it. Now to your point:

That point being that many people immigrated to America, Canada or Australia with not much more than the clothes they were wearing and made a life once they arrived.  I therefore have little regard for the oft-repeated notion that a woman must think about the man's financial assets or income as a prerequisite to leaving her country.

My advice is tell her nothing.. Show her no pictures of anything but yourself (and I don't mean pictures of you in front of your home or your Beemer). 

Keep her expectations low.  Someone once told me, "satisfaction is a function of expectation, not a product of reality."

You are confusing totally different situations. On the one hand you have people for one reason or other desperate to leave their native countries - if only with their lives. It's quite a different level of motivation? determination and? yes? the rules of the game as well. They do not expect anything but a chance for a better life for themselves and their children - more for the children.

When one is prepared to marry someone (and that is the gist of the whole fiancee exercise, isn't it) - whether in a strange country or strange town|city even, one doesn't mean to go the whole nine yeards and some alone, making one's way from scratch in a new and strange setting.

Granted that most of the foreign fiancees want a family life with someone they like in the first place. Also quite obvious is the fact that quite a few of you guys couldn't win the race based only on your beauty, charm and wit alone... more so if you take in consideration that many and many of the aspiring RW rather a bit to lose leaving their native countries (and that rather too many are not able to communicate adequately with their intended husbands).

And it's not so strange that the government before issueing a visa to your fiancee demands that you prove your ability to provide (on a meager scale of 125% of poverty level, but still...)

So of course you'll want in the first place to win genuine liking on your own merits, but it wouldn't be prudent or even smart and fair not to tell your intended what she can expect for her sacrifice of her whole life and achievement at home. It's not only not fair to expect her "to make her own life by herself" - it's, excuse me, quite stupid. She is not marrying someone to continue to struggle by herself - quite the opposite, thank you 

[Ronnie]

Such is your perspective Wienerin.  Thank you.

[Wienerin]

Wienerin,

You have only one mission it seems on this board;  Discredit that which people have posted armed with nothing more than a volatile concoction of arrogance, ignorance and slight bit of knowledge.

You really think that this deserves an answer? Nice try

In another thread recently you challenged my comments about the composition of the early Bolsheviks.  I refused to engage you because as a Jew, you obviously cannot have an objective view of that part of history.  I could have referred you to a 1918 letter from the US Ambassador but you would only seek to expouse your greater knowledge on the subject...so I chose to fast forward to the end of the fruitless discussion.

This is you choice - and even if would "refer me" to a lot more I still wouldn't have continued. Guess why?

In this case of my acquaintaces, Alex and Olga, you again set yourself up as the expert on a situation where you have zero personal and specific knowledge.  Yet your general experience as a paralegal  makes your opinion definitive!   

A AM an expert, sorry - engaged as such by a number of US immigration courts and other agencies. With very specific and varied knowledge of US immigration law and procedure.

BTW, you say you yourself immigrated as an asylee.  Were you persecuted in Russia?  Sounds like you had a good job?

No? I didn't say this - it's your ignorance which made you assume that I said it. One cannot "immigrate as asylee". One has to be in the US and apply for the grant of asylum.
It seems that I had grounds and proof enough for the officer to approve my petition immediately after the interview. What having a good job has to do with persecution? And what do you mean as my "good job"

It could well be that Alex and Olga and their boys were given asylum on some grounds, as trumped up as many others.   I did not see any reason to grill them on the minutiae of their legal processing.

No, it couldn't - for the reason stated above. Since you have a penchant for browsing in the immigration cases, it wouldn't be hard for you to find how and to whom asylum can be granted. And do not talk about "legal" in reference to their stiry, please Nothing in their creative legend vould have happened. Period.

What I am confident of is that they didn't get tourist visas and overstay as you have suggested.  That is a very unlikely scenario it seems to me.

 

But you find it a likely scenario that anyone can march into a consulate, ask for and get - from the consul. who doesn't have right and ability to issue those - immigrant visas? "In the interest of the United States"?

Had they done so, this many years after the fact, they would not have had any reason to conceal it having already gained US green cards and citizenship. 

As to their reason I can say nothing - people will tell very sytange stories sometimes for no discernible reason at all.

They also would likely not have been given tourist visas after they approached the embassy about immigrating.

Very true. But they wouldn't have been given immigrant visas also. The consulate cannot give out such visas for the asking.

[LiveFromUkraine]

It's definitely true, in my experience, and as stated by Mendeleyev (I don't think I spelled that right ), that talking about salaries in Russia is no big deal. It's as common as talking about the weather.

HEHE I found that to be the case here in Ukraine as well.  It isn't a big deal here.   That is normally one of the first questions asked. 

I remember a great friend of mine, from the UK, that I worked with in OZ (hopefully you followed that).  I was even fortunate enough to travel to England and be at his wedding.  I asked him if he and his wife were planning on having children soon.  He told me it was none of my business.     He wasn't really mad but a little shocked I had asked him.  It really wasn't a big deal where I come from but apparently it was to him.



Thomas

[msmoby_ru]

HEHE I found that to be the case here in Ukraine as well.  It isn't a big deal here.   That is normally one of the first questions asked. 

I remember a great friend of mine, from the UK, that I worked with in OZ (hopefully you followed that).  I was even fortunate enough to travel to England and be at his wedding.  I asked him if he and his wife were planning on having children soon.  He told me it was none of my business.     He wasn't really mad but a little shocked I had asked him.  It really wasn't a big deal where I come from but apparently it was to him.



Thomas

Especially in southern England - it is NOT the done thing to discuss :

1) When will you have kids?  - it is deemed to be a bit to nosey, as financial constraints are concerned - and it is "putting pressure" on the lady - it's even considered "bad luck" to ask !!

2) What do you earn?

3) How big is your mortgage ( home loan) / your rent?


They are more reserved, private... as one moves North and across to Ireland this is much less prevalent - and if you visit some bars in Ireland they will try to know all your business and you'll know there's before the evenings finished.