A RW Perspective on Emancipation and Feminism

[KenC]

Ken, did you write about your Mother-in-Law as "she wears pants in the family"?   

I guess retiring to weakness is a form of protection for women if law isn't there to protect them. 

Yes I did and she certainly is the head of the houshold.  But she is also very feminine and sexual.  Please do not think I am promoting the idea that RW are not strong.  Hell, IMO RW are much tougher than AW in many ways.  But they (RW) also love being women.
KenC

[Misha]

Another reason is that in such societies a woman alone still is someone despicable, scorned by those who "got their men".

Very insightful analysis! I would add that an unmarried woman is seen as a threat by her married friends. My wife noticed this: her married friends would distance themselves because she was seen as a threat. Any attractive woman who is  not married could potentially "steal" their husbands. They will fear for their husbands, even if the unmarried woman does not want their husbands. My wife, however, was often put in awkward spots as her friends' husbands would be propositioning her. They assumed that a woman needs a man and that since she was single she would be happy to have them as a lover 

[Wienerin]

Yes I did and she certainly is the head of the houshold.  But she is also very feminine and sexual.  Please do not think I am promoting the idea that RW are not strong.  Hell, IMO RW are much tougher than AW in many ways.  But they (RW) also love being women.
KenC

Let's first state - just to clear the air   - that a) I'm not a feminist, American or otherwise. Definitely, strongly and unrevocably; b) I dislike on a whole extreme manifestations of political correctness, as well as AA and EOE.

BUT as one who suffered quite a lot for being a member of two discriminated minorities in Russia - a girl/woman and a person of Jewish origin, I can understand where all of these in the USA is coming from. You see, laws such as antidiscrimination ones do not appear and are not enforced where there is no discrimination. And yes, while the discrimination persists - even of a hidden, creeping variety, the enforcement tends to be extreme sometimes.

You were joking (I hope - for the sake of your RW) about ability to pinch your demale colleagues bottoms as a bonus. Maybe - for you. But I think that to the most Russian women this isn't such a joke, but one of many unpleasant and degrading parts of living in Russia. And not the worst, mind.

Now to the rest of your statements. It seems to me that you are operationg with two completely different but equally non-representative sets of people. The one you hotly dislike - extreme, bra-burning feminists, and those Russian women, whom you met, mostly in a somewhat special circumstances, a group set on marrying an AM.

If you take average middle-class women in the US, and comparable Russian ladies - I think you are in for a lot of surprises, both pleasant and otherwise

[KenC]

As to the obvious reasons why the RW sometimes presents herself as more "feminine" you don't have to contemplate Russian society, but have enough examples in the black or poor rural communities.

When for any reason - government, environment, racism, class, etc., etc. a man cannot support a family, this man becomes shiftless, irresponsible, nor anxious to maintain family structure. He will put a premium on the so to say "male" characteristics - physical strength, sports, drinking, cavalier attitude towards women, sexual prowess, etc.

And the woman in such a society on the one hand (because we are kinder and more loving and sympathetic  ) will bolster the illusion in her man that he is everything he is not while carrying double and triple load of homemaking, raising children, working and providing AND ascribing all these achievements to her man. On the other hand she'll have to maintain he ourward "feminine" characteristics - to get her man in a highly competitive environment, and to hold him.

I repeat, where men are stripped deep inside of their pride, wjere society on the surface maintains the same attitude of "Man is the strong, the provider, woman - the feminine, wealer, but nurturer" whiole in real fact this is no longer so or enough, - the morals become loose, the family ties - nothing, and if the next woman is younger, prettier, more carefree (because she doesn't have to work to support her family, doesn't have to care for children, have more time and money ro herself, etc.) then she WILL be a competition.

More often than not the guy is a sore looser BTW and it's a wonder why beautiful and deserving women will compete for the shmuck, but real battles start when the guy is somewhat better - able to hold a job, has some change in his pocket, etc.

Another reason is that in such societies a woman alone still is someone despicable, scorned by those who "got their men".

But Anerican gents should beware lest the pre-war Scarlett O'Hara from, say, Ryazan' with all the proper values and deference to her man, becomes the posr-was one, willing and able to go on in life on equal footing with men. We have seen a lot of such transformations - with different results. Many of the men lihe it, however - sometimes surprisingly to themselves ... we do not always know what we really want  
 

Wienerin,
Hmmmm.  It is going to take me a while to absorb all that you wrote here.  But I have some intitial questions just to help me understand.

Is it your opinion that RW are ultra feminine (my opinion) to bolster the masculinity of their men?

Why is the compitition so great for men that are not so great?

How do you think the appearance of AM into this man/woman equation in Russia has changed the overall dynamics?  (If at all?)
KenC

[Ooooops]

But they (RW) also love being women.

I don't know what kind of women you are hanging around in the States, Ken, but my American friends all love being women.      Not a doormat, though, which is quite different.    

No, seriously, guys, you don't have to step on American ladies to bring Russians up on the pedestal.   

[Wienerin]

KenC, I like talking to you   Sorry, can't answer now - have to rush to my office, and not sure I'll be able to write from my desk there. But never fear, we'll get to the root of all of these fascinating things

[KenC]

Let's first state - just to clear the air   - that a) I'm not a feminist, American or otherwise. Definitely, strongly and unrevocably; b) I dislike on a whole extreme manifestations of political correctness, as well as AA and EOE.

BUT as one who suffered quite a lot for being a member of two discriminated minorities in Russia - a girl/woman and a person of Jewish origin, I can understand where all of these in the USA is coming from. You see, laws such as antidiscrimination ones do not appear and are not enforced where there is no discrimination. And yes, while the discrimination persists - even of a hidden, creeping variety, the enforcement tends to be extreme sometimes.

You were joking (I hope - for the sake of your RW) about ability to pinch your demale colleagues bottoms as a bonus. Maybe - for you. But I think that to the most Russian women this isn't such a joke, but one of many unpleasant and degrading parts of living in Russia. And not the worst, mind.

I believe you need to reread the post made by BC.  He was in Europe where the woman grabbed the butt of a man..  I have been married to a RW for long enough to understand what is acceptable and what is not in that area.

Now to the rest of your statements. It seems to me that you are operationg with two completely different but equally non-representative sets of people. The one you hotly dislike - extreme, bra-burning feminists, and those Russian women, whom you met, mostly in a somewhat special circumstances, a group set on marrying an AM.

If you take average middle-class women in the US, and comparable Russian ladies - I think you are in for a lot of surprises, both pleasant and otherwise

  My observations of RW are based on the many women we know here in America from the fsu, friends of my wife still in Russia and family members not the handful of ladies I met over there.
KenC

[KenC]

KenC, I like talking to you   Sorry, can't answer now - have to rush to my office, and not sure I'll be able to write from my desk there. But never fear, we'll get to the root of all of these fascinating things

Wienerin,
Don't worry as I will wait for your answers.
KenC

[myrddin]

I don't think many RWD members believe that being "feminine" has to do with physical strength or submissiveness or any kind of weakness: it's about women being comfortable being women.  A lot of AW simply aren't.  

This is the biggest contrast I noticed on my recent trip.

No, seriously, guys, you don't have to step on American ladies to bring Russians up on the pedestal.  

When some of my lady friends in Ukraine asked me what I thought about American women, I made sure to avoid going negative on AW.  But it sure seems the percentages are better over there - and I'm not putting my pedestal away!     

[KenC]

I don't know what kind of women you are hanging around in the States, Ken, but my American friends all love being women.      Not a doormat, though, which is quite different.    

No, seriously, guys, you don't have to step on American ladies to bring Russians up on the pedestal.   

Oops,
I am trying my best not to be too derogatory towards AW.  Really!

To be honest with you, I did not know of the difference between RW and AW before I went to meet my wife.  It is only after years together with her, knowing her friends and family that have brought these differences to my attention.  Let me try to explain further.  IMO RW want to be equal but not the same as men.  They relish the differences between the sexes.  IMO AW want to be the same as men.  Evidence of this is their disdain for men who open doors for them, or offer to carry something heavy for them.  Or (God forbid!) if their limitations (even physical) of being a woman is some how pointed out.

Case on point: While single, I was rearranging my furniture in my living room to the suggestions of my then girlfriend (AW).  She did not hesitate to grab the other end of a couch to help me move it.  AW have no qualms to working like a man physcally.  My wife on the other hand waits for me to bring in the heavy groceries from the car.  Regardless that she loaded them there to begin with!  
KenC

[mspanky]

When some of my lady friends in Ukraine asked me what I thought about American women, I made sure to avoid going negative on AW.  But it sure seems the percentages are better over there - and I'm not putting my pedestal away!     

  Everyone's perspectives are different. I have a friend who has travelled to Russia a lot on business. He is very successful and also very good looking. How anyone gets this lucky in life to have both in abundance I don't know. But he's not half as impressed when he's in Russia as I or many other men are when we go to Russia or anywhere else. Probably because the caliber of beautiful women he meets on his home ground rival the beautiful women he meets in Russia. And there are lots of sweet ones among these girls who would do anything for him.

  I watched a show called "The moment of truth" last week. Some guy had a beautiful dark haired very exotic looking ex-girlfriend named Aurora. Since she spoke English perfectly I'm assuming she's an AW. This woman was not only gorgeous, but seemed sweet and his mother loved her. When it came to the question of cheating on her in their relationship, he failed. She cried because she was hurt. This guy probably has many more beautiful AVAILABLE women around him  who pay attention to him and that's why he was able to cheat. I'm sure his perespectives of AW and FW are the same as my friends. Because the beautiful ones  here are available to him and therefore he only focuses on that, RW or other FW in their country will be equal to what he is used to here.. Most people will tend to compare FW and AW by what is available to them here.

 

[viking]

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/history/30-05-2008/105391-russian_women-0

Don't know if this is on or off topic, but did find it an interesting read.

[Lily]

I don't think many RWD members believe that being "feminine" has to do with physical strength or submissiveness or any kind of weakness: it's about women being comfortable being women.  A lot of AW simply aren't.  

  

That's a good definition of femininity, myrddin!

The femininity of RW is probably a tradition, passed through generations, absorbed in childhood and teenage years from mothers, grannies, sisters, cousins, aunties. Almost everyone around was professing femininity. Mothers bought us books "For girls". In schools, girls were taught sewing and knitting whereas boys learned different things. For a part, it comes from patriarchal history, where 'me Jane, you Tarzan' was the rule.

A phenomenon of RW is that the harder the life was, the more women were sticking to their femininity. They put incredible efforts to buy nice clothes and makeup. Even those who were doing hard and dirty physical jobs, were dressed up to nines after work, to bring the desired contrast to their dull worktime. Femininity was cherished by RW in whatever hard circumstances she found herself.

Althought I agree with Gator on the point that only beauty counts and men are the primary consumers of it, I would not tell that straight away that RW did that only for men. Even those RW who advocated celibacy, were behaving like ladies, at least from my own experience. Even in purely female groups. There was a sort of competition - is she beautiful? I want to be even more beatiful than she!  

To me it seems like RW found it a matter of honor to be women. Same attitude perhaps as with medieval noblemen. Why did they do duels out of every little reasons and killed each other for hundreds of years? Matter of honor. Noblesse oblige

[KenC]

To me it seems like RW found it a matter of honor to be women.

BINGO!
Lily,
And there in lies the difference between AW and RW IMO.  AW see no honor in being a feminine woman, they see at as a weakness.
KenC

[Lily]

BINGO!
Lily,
And there in lies the difference between AW and RW IMO.  AW see no honor in being a feminine woman, they see at as a weakness.
KenC

I have some understanding why being a woman may be considered a weakness, but only in Russian environment, where the strong survives and the weak dies. Weak, little, burdened women are suppressed, betrayed, humiliated...do I need to continue?
AW live in the society that takes care of weak. IMHO no practical reason for such thinking.

Probably RW sees a honor in her womanness because deep inside she hopes that a good man will take care of her, even if no one is available to protect her...

[Misha]

It is a shame that we don't have any AW that post on this forum. To hear people here, you would think that American women sought to aspire to Mao's ideals during the cultural revolution. If AW don't care about their looks and femininity, why is the beauty industry in the United States worth billions of dollars. Who exactly is buying the anti-wrinkle creams and the other beauty products that are continually being advertised? Who are all the patients fueling the cosmetic surgery business in the USA? Why the bombardment of commercials as to how to lose weight and where to buy the most fashionable clothing?

[WmGO]

I have a question for you ladies.  Why is it that women from the fsu have been able to maintain thier incredible feminitiy through the years and for the most part AW have not? 
KenC

I think that we have to look at what is meant by "femininity". IMO, the
#1 problem for/with AW as it relates to femininity is SIZE. When a woman
is fat or, worse, obese, IMO this substantially negatively affects her femininity (at least
with the majority of such women)

• . Then throw in poor dress and grooming

habits and the matter only gets worse.

Now, in terms of true feminism, I don't think there are a lot of true
feminists out there in this country (U.S.A.) although, no doubt, feminist
ideas and propositions have affected AW to some extent, but with most AW it
is barely noticeable. I rarely ever meet/see a real feminist type women. However,
I have to admit this much: I do see a LOT of jealously and negative thinking/commenting on the part of fat not so feminine AW towards slim and feminine women. I think this is rationalized in terms of feministic thoughts inside the fat AW's
mind, but in reality it is just simple old fashioned jealously over looks.  :evil:

************

• = there are a few "BBW" who are actually very feminine despite

being the size of a Mack truck. I don't find them attractive but must
admit that they do exist, albeit a small minority of fat or obese women.

[KenC]

I have some understanding why being a woman may be considered a weakness, but only in Russian environment, where the strong survives and the weak dies. Weak, little, burdened women are suppressed, betrayed, humiliated...do I need to continue?
AW live in the society that takes care of weak. IMHO no practical reason for such thinking.

Probably RW sees a honor in her womanness because deep inside she hopes that a good man will take care of her, even if no one is available to protect her...

Lily,
Such words as I highlighted would definately get you kicked out of any American woman's club!  In 21 years of being married to my first American wife, she never workd a job for even one day.  Yet she would never ever have let the words leave her lips that I had taken good care for her and our children.  A position like that would not give her equal credit in her mind.  I was only successful because she took on the daily burden of being with the children and supported me in my professional efforts.  AW hate the idea of being "taken care of" even if they are.
KenC

[mspanky]

Lily,
Such words as I highlighted would definately get you kicked out of any American woman's club!  In 21 years of being married to my first American wife, she never workd a job for even one day.  Yet she would never ever have let the words leave her lips that I had taken good care for her and our children.  A position like that would not give her equal credit in her mind.  I was only successful because she took on the daily burden of being with the children and supported me in my professional efforts.  AW hate the idea of being "taken care of" even if they are.
KenC

 Disagree. There are many AW who love the idea of being taken care of. That's why websites such as "Sugarddadies.com" and many more like that exist. That's why there are matchmakers who specialize in matching beautiful women with millionaires. I have actually heard young AW saying they would love to be pampered and taken care of. Those are the ones who keep the cosmetic companies, buy Jimmy Choo $500.00 shoes and have gym memberships. Those very same women are available here. But it takes much more money and clout to impress them.

 Hey, I see men walking hand in hand with hot looking AW everyday in the U.S. It seems people forget this country is full of immigrants. So the women here come in all shapes,sizes and colors. Most manly women are the ugly ones. I've rarely seen a beautiful woman who takes care to appear "feminine" act masculine.

[WmGO]

[1]A position like that would not give her equal credit in her mind.......[2]  AW hate the idea of being "taken care of" even if they are.
KenC

Agree with #1 - and I think that that mentality is a subtle affect
of feminism on some, perhaps many, AW.

#2 - have to disagree. There are a lot of AW who want to be taken
care of. As a matter of fact, I am certain that the applies to the overwhelming
majority of AW.  No matter how much radical feminist propaganda
screams at AW that they do not need a man for anything, the fact
is that a woman is *wired* {designed by God} to desire to be taken care of
by man. It is in their nature. Yeah, there are always the Feinstein/Boxer
types, but they aren't too common down here in the SouthLand, thank
God!! 

[KenC]

OK WmGo & Mspanky,
I may have mispoke in rregard to "being taken care of" but not in the way you two say here. I believe most AW would love to be taken care of by a man as long as they didn't have to admit it!

Any woman listed on Sugardaddies.com is a borderline prostitute so they are hardly relative to what we are speaking of here.
KenC

[WmGO]

I hear ya Ken, LOL!

But I tell you that there are many, IMO the majority, of AW
want to be taken care of by a man and not in the sugardaddy
way.

I will add this: b/c there are so many sorry sack of cow dung
men out there, referring to AM, we have a whole generation,
perhaps even the second generation, of AW who have HAD to
take care of *themselves* in a way that they would have preferred
not to. And after doing so for some years, it makes them more
"independent" thinking/acting then they otherwise would have been.


Just some sociological ramblings from the South......  :evil:

WmGojustsaynotobumpwithbigfatwoman

[BC]

Lily mentioned attitudes being formed by hard times.

It will wear off in time, and probably already has for the youngest generation.

With higher earnings comes greater choices so don't expect things to remain as they were or maybe are.  'Muscle' will begin to be flexed beyond those steel doors, skirt or not.

Count on it.

[KenC]

I hear ya Ken, LOL!

But I tell you that there are many, IMO the majority, of AW
want to be taken care of by a man and not in the sugardaddy
way.

I will add this: b/c there are so many sorry sack of cow dung
men out there, referring to AM, we have a whole generation,
perhaps even the second generation, of AW who have HAD to
take care of *themselves* in a way that they would have preferred
not to. And after doing so for some years, it makes them more
"independent" thinking/acting then they otherwise would have been.


Just some sociological ramblings from the South......  :evil:

WmGojustsaynotobumpwithbigfatwoman

WmGo,
Well there is a whole "other side" to the American story too.  The Pussyfication of the American male might be a good starting title.
KenC

[KenC]

Lily mentioned attitudes being formed by hard times.

It will wear off in time, and probably already has for the youngest generation.

With higher earnings comes greater choices so don't expect things to remain as they were or maybe are.  'Muscle' will begin to be flexed beyond those steel doors, skirt or not.

Count on it.

Could you please expand on this thought?
KenC