Risky Business

[WmGO]

A prenup can't exclude most of these things, if any.  Especially anything that is considered community property in a community property state and certainly not forgoing alimony.  Any good divorce attorney can make such stipulations in a prenup null and void for any one of a dozen different reasons.  The most common one would be that she didn't understand what she was signing, especially since English was not her first language.  The next would be that you cannot sign away your rights as guaranteed by law.  For instance, if you live in a community property state that grants 50% of belongings accumulated during marriage, your spouse can't sign that right away in a prenup.  Granted, you may get her to sign it, but it won't hold up in court.  It's one of the reasons those "I promise not to sue" waivers that people frequently sign aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

The numerous incorrect statements above is why people should consult a local family law attorney from their own State to find out exactly what the law is that they will be bound by when it comes to the subject of prenuptial agreements.

Generally, the vast majority of American States will enforce a validly entered into pre-nup agreement. To be valid, the general rule is full disclosure and entering into of one's own free will with knowledge of the contents of the agreement.

Of course, people (the man generally) who have nothing or little do not need prenups. 

[WmGO]

Anastassia,
You are exactly right.  The judge can arbitrarily pick and choose which parts of the prenupt he will honor or not honor.

This is incorrect Ken for the vast majority of States.
The trial court judge is bound to follow the State's
appellate and/or or statutory law. He cannot act "arbitrarily".
If he does, the remedy is appeal.

There is much more stability
and predictability in this area of family/domestic relations law
than people realize.

[KenC]

This is incorrect Ken for the vast majority of States.
The trial court judge is bound to follow the State's
appellate and/or or statutory law. He cannot act "arbitrarily".
If he does, the remedy is appeal.

There is much more stability
and predictability in this area of family/domestic relations law
than people realize.

WmGO,
This has not been my experience.
KenC

[roykirk]

This is incorrect Ken for the vast majority of States.
The trial court judge is bound to follow the State's
appellate and/or or statutory law. He cannot act "arbitrarily".
If he does, the remedy is appeal.

There is much more stability
and predictability in this area of family/domestic relations law
than people realize.

I'd refer you to my previous post about what happened to my brother.  Prenup didn't do him a bit of good.

[WmGO]

I'd refer you to my previous post about what happened to my brother.  Prenup didn't do him a bit of good.

Well, that stinks. And just goes to show two things:

1. There are 50 different jurisdictions in America. What State
you are in decides enforceability issues.

2. The law is much more developed now on the subject of prenups
than it was 10 years ago and going back in time. In the majority of States
a lawyer can render a client an opinion letter on the subject with specific
references to the statutory and/or case law. If the proper steps are followed,
all aspects of a prenup will be enforceable (in most States). (bearing in mind
prenups cannot be used to decide child custody and child support issues)

[OlgaH]

So many more women have careers and a college education now.

In Russia a college education is the primary and secondary professional education.
Russian education 

[steviej]

Well, that stinks. And just goes to show two things:

1. There are 50 different jurisdictions in America. What State
you are in decides enforceability issues.

2. The law is much more developed now on the subject of prenups
than it was 10 years ago and going back in time. In the majority of States
a lawyer can render a client an opinion letter on the subject with specific
references to the statutory and/or case law. If the proper steps are followed,
all aspects of a prenup will be enforceable (in most States). (bearing in mind
prenups cannot be used to decide child custody and child support issues)

We may need an 11th commandment: Get yee a Prenup!

I think WmGO is right in that the adjudication of prenups these days should not be as arbitrary as some previous cases seem to indicate. Also, a bad lawyer could have written a poorly framed and executed prenup, or the process of review and signoff by the parties could have been flawed. Timing is important too. Judges do not like prenups signed too close to the date of the wedding. They stereo type that the man has maneuvered the woman into a position where she feels "undue' pressure to sign or else trash all the preparations that have been made for the wedding, and subsequent humiliations with the families, etc.

Jet posted a link earlier to an archive with an extended prenup discussion. I propose it as a new "commandment" beause the newbies will likely not consider this as a necessary part of their plan until it is too late.

In general, a prenup is advisable when one of the parties entering the marriage has significantly more assets and earning potential than the other. This is probably always the case in the AM/RW marriages. I would also add that whatever additional protections that could be used in case of DV accusations be added as well, no matter how feeble.

[Gator]

I would also add that whatever additional protections that could be used in case of DV accusations be added as well, no matter how feeble.

I don't think much can be done in this area.   Perhaps a statement that the woman has known the man for x number of years and he has never displayed any violent tendencies; however, that has little weight.

[KenC]

 

You guys are really jogging some unpleasant memories with me.  When I separated and filed for a divorce from my ex, her attorney automatically filed for a PPO against me.  My attorney fought like a banshee not to have it on record.  I didn't understand the big deal at the time, but the attorney told me that I didn't want anything on record that could even slightly indicate that ex was threatened by me.  In 25+ years with me, she was always safe.
KenC

[mark2353]

Guys,
I just done with my divorce, AW that literary move in with a bag a clothes and a old (~3K) car!
1)She tried to file restrain orders the only thing that save me was my security clearance at the time(risk or losing and losing $$$) she back off. there was no reason but she wanted to make a point not one threat in 15 yrs!.
2)The she got 1/2 of the estate(1 house, car and 1/2 of 401k) which she contributed nothing except huge credit card bills. Then she wanted full spousal support until she is 60. The funny thing is that state almost granted to her! Welcome to Santa Cruz, ca home of liberal women!.
I would have less of issue with RW than AW because one is home and can make, vs the other is stranded in different culture. that is if she plays fair.
I wish I had stuck to my thoughts and asked for prenup, but hormones won the day!
Mark

[Taz]

You bring up an interesting point that I forgot about credit card debt. Even is she runs the bills up really high before the divorce, you can still get stuck with them AND she can still get a big chunk of your assets too.

I have no problem sharing my assets with someone who is willing to work with me an build a future. If shared they should be on a pro-rata basis. She shouldn't be entitled to a big chunk of my 401k that I amassed long before I even knew or nor should she be entitled to half of the interested that was earned on it.

Things are definitely biased against the man in the US. The pendulum needs to swing back the other way pretty soon to at least be fair and balanced.

[mark2353]

Taz,
you are right we had to split that! Then she wanted to split the rent from the other home that I have rented! When I showed a deficit, she not longer was interested! give me $$, give me $$$, show me a woman with a large saving account, I will show you one of gods errors! Most women especial AW have large CC bills to better sell their goods! (If you buy! its quick sand!). here it is better to rent! move with the market! Until it is right or the right RW

Mark

[mark2353]

Lets not attach labels.   Morality is a very uncertain thing - it's compass been know to change direction many times along human history. 

I am sorry to disagree on this! My ex sister is one of the biggest abortion doctors in the northwest area! She is very happy with her doings for the $$$ and because she takes loooong relaxing vacations around the globe. You can call her office most of the time she is out on "doctors conference, tahiti, bali.." Her morals are on the next trip and $$$ that is all she care about. Forget the morals!
mark

[Ooooops]

Best to drop subject before we get the tomatoes, just in case is anyone for gaspacho soup??

It's +30C outside so cold gazpacho sounds really good.   

[mark2353]

It's +30C outside so cold gazpacho sounds really good.   

At least we let that shoe drop and the soup sounds better than the alternative?
Seattle area does get hot! been there right out of college was nastier that the eastern side of the state(grew up in eastern WA).
mark

[Ooooops]

Seattle area does get hot! been there right out of college was nastier that the eastern side of the state(grew up in eastern WA).

We lived in Seattle area 2 years before moving to Hong Kong, but never spent a summer there - were on the road all the time...   

[OlgaH]

It's +30C outside so cold gazpacho sounds really good.   

I would rather eat okroshka 

[Ooooops]

I would rather eat okroshka 

Never liked that stuff...      I'd rather eat/drink separate ingredients from Okroshka.   

[OlgaH]

Never liked that stuff...      I'd rather eat/drink separate ingredients from Okroshka.   

separate would be kvas and salad "Zimny" or "Olivye"  I started to drink kvas when I was 20 till that time I did not like it.

[Ooooops]

separate would be kvas and salad "Zimny" or "Olivye"  I started to drink kvas when I was 20 till that time I did not like it.

Exactly!    Mmmmm... cold kvas on the hot summer day out of that big yellow "bochka"...   mmmm...   Better not think what was on the bottom of those barrels, though!   :hairraising:   

[steviej]

separate would be kvas and salad "Zimny" or "Olivye"  I started to drink kvas when I was 20 till that time I did not like it.

I see we've really gotten to the core of some good advice for "newbies" seeking love and marriage, and understanding the risks involved  (just kidding!)

One conclusion I've drawn from this thread is that serious consideration needs to be given to having a Prenuptual Agreement for any man marrying an FSU lady. Romantically, it could certainly be a deal-killer, I imagine. Probably most FSUW don't even know or understand what that is and would be very suspicious. On the other hand, if the man has inadvertently gotten himself into a bad relationship, the results can be catastrophic and long lasting without it.

[KenC]

I see we've really gotten to the core of some good advice for "newbies" seeking love and marriage, and understanding the risks involved  (just kidding!)

One conclusion I've drawn from this thread is that serious consideration needs to be given to having a Prenuptual Agreement for any man marrying an FSU lady. Romantically, it could certainly be a deal-killer, I imagine. Probably most FSUW don't even know or understand what that is and would be very suspicious. On the other hand, if the man has inadvertently gotten himself into a bad relationship, the results can be catastrophic and long lasting without it.

Steve,
Just FYI, Lena had a full understanding regarding prenupts and considering the misery my ex put me through, gladly offered to sign one.  In fact, she was rather insistant on having one to prove her love for me was real and not about money.  She didn't get one as I didn't need it to prove anything.
KenC

[msmoby_ru]

Steve,
Just FYI, Lena had a full understanding regarding prenupts and considering the misery my ex put me through, gladly offered to sign one.  In fact, she was rather insistant on having one to prove her love for me was real and not about money.  She didn't get one as I didn't need it to prove anything.
KenC

Nice to hear.. Surely, marriage is about giving and sharing snd TRUST..  if some folk are worried about the risks.....

[Maxx2]

There is one risk everyone here has missed, lawsuits. I know a few men accused of DV who have been sued by their (ex) Russian wives. One guy for $130,000 and the other for $250,000. The first one paid it to get her and the pro bono attorneys off his back. His legal fee costs exceeded the cost of the lawsuit. The other fellow a Ukrainian/American spent almost $100,000 in legal fees before his ex-wife dropped her lawsuit for the 250K. He had a expert witness a retired INS District Director who was going to testify on how common DV charges are when a marriage to a foreign spouse was endangered. This coming out in the trial plus her ex-husband having a detective's video tape of her torrid affair with another man. A man she was e-mailing before she arrived to America and began seeing secretly shortly after her arrival. My guess she decided getting her LPR greencard and living with her boyfriend was enough of a reward. 

Maxx

[BillyB]

marriage is about giving and sharing snd TRUST..  if some folk are worried about the risks.....

msmoby, most everyone goes into marriage with trust but they should also go into marriage with brains too. You want to see how ugly a person you thought you knew can get, just wait to you get a divorce from them.

If you're in possession of a family heirloom past on from generations to generations, you better protect it because an ex-wife may claim it's her's in divorce.

If you're in a business with family or partners, you need to protect the business and people you're in business with from having a potential divorce since a bad day is going to ruin more than just your life. If a potential wife can't understand your consideration for others, you shouldn't marry her.

Most people don't need prenups since they don't have significant assests anyway. If a divorce case goes to trial, the attorneys will get the lion's share.