Risky Business

[Ronnie]

I was once in the K-1 process with a woman with 2 late teen-aged daughters.  The mother was a busy doctor with her own clinic and often worked late...much to my distress while I was in her country.

One evening as I sat in her apartment waiting for her to finish her work, I began asking about the girls' father.  They painted him quite differently than their mother had.  Even giving me great details on the events that led to the break up of the marriage.  Here's basically how it went:

Husband/father has a job, but during the financial crisis, company can't pay his wages except in goods that he must then try to pawn at a big discount. 

Wife/mother makes little money also but points out it's the man's job to support his family. (Oldest daughter was hers from an earlier marriage, BTW).

Man feels depressed and devalued and spends time at local bar coming home too late and too drunk for conversation or sex.

Wife/mother begins to have romantic interludes with two of her successful male patients (both married), doing little to hide the fact from her daughters...telling them it's not healthy for a woman not to have sex regularly...thus she is compelled to be unfaithful in the best interests of her health.

Marriage breaks up when husband learns of his wife's "healthful" activities.

When future BFs ask about what happened to the marriage, she replies that her ex drank to much...alcoholic that he was.
------------
Does the last part sound familiar to anyone?

[groovlstk]

Do you mean in FSU or when they come to the west? I'm not saying all FSUW are "angels" ( anymore than all men are "bastards" ) but this is not a phenonemon I've witnessed in FSU or in Cyprus ... where many FSU couples and mixed marriages are common.

My wife and I know of only one other RW/AM couple in our area, the rest are all RM/RW couples. The RW/AM couple are both nice people but she spends a lot of time at our home because she doesn't want to go home to her husband. Some of the RW/RM couples are just as unstable, one girl has a lover back home in Moscow... I don't know the men's stories because they don't confide in me but the women are all too willing to discuss this stuff w/my wife 

That confirms it.. we obviously move in different circles.! .. most of the FSUW I know would (having been married to an errant husband) be VERY careful to choose a man who would be unlikey to stray.. don't you think than poor / no sex in a relationship that is a sympton of marital problems rather than the cause..?!

Maybe I wasn't clear, I didn't mean to suggest that RW tolerate cheating husbands w/a resigned shrug - they are simply less prone to condemn their friends/colleagues who are doing it. Just as too many are less prone to condemn - and indeed will admire - professional daters and girls who fleece Western men. (I'm speaking in very general terms here, btw.)

?! don't agree - not my experience.. for  most folk I know, FSU or western - extra marital affairs are a BIG deal..

Something in the water where she you / live?!

I've found Russian people to be a lot less judgmental and less prone to condemn such behavior. Maybe this little example will help illustrate my point: Many Western guys are horrified when they learn that some married male managers in Russia or Ukraine try to force sexual relationships on young female employees. It's reprehensible in my book, but the RW I've mentioned this to shrug it off and explain that if a girl holds her ground and says "no" the first time it happens, she'll set a precedent and her manager will leave her alone. The girls who give in and have affairs with their managers are seen as doing it for their own benefit as they'll be promoted and receive regular gifts. This happened regularly at my wife's former firm, especially among girls who came to Moscow from provincial areas, Ukraine, and the Stans.

[Gator]

When future BFs ask about what happened to the marriage, she replies that her ex drank to much...alcoholic that he was.
------------
Does the last part sound familiar to anyone?

My assessment of your story:  Alcohol abuse was part of the series of events that drove them apart.  The initiator was the economic setback in Russia, which could be blamed on Ronnie (Reagan not RWD's Ronnie).  Yet, life is never a straight line and we are tested many times.  There was not enough love, understanding, staying power and forgiveness between the two to overcome their fate and circumstance, so both fell victim.   Neither was a villain.

When a woman says her husband abused alcohol or slept around, I always wonder if she drove him to drink and debauchery.  Then I ponder whether she would do the same to me.

Ronnie, it sounds as if the two teenaged daughters were not thrilled about you marrying their mama, otherwise they would have painted a more becoming picture of their mother's character.

[Maxx2]

I always wonder if she drove him to drink and debauchery.  Then I ponder whether she would do the same to me.

Had something similar happen to me with the first RW I seen. She told me her ex went out of his mind one night and broke all the windows with a dumb bell. She then had him locked up in an insane asylum. She also told me a story about her mother, sister and the mafia trying to take her apartment away from her by beaming sound waves at her through the walls. Then there was her affair with a police officer she met when she lodged her complaint about the humming sound. I figure that she did this in retaliation against her husband because he would humiliate her by comparing her breast size with some actress on the TV and he did this to get her to stop nagging him. Her story about the mafia putting drugs in his cigarettes seemed far fetched as the reason why he flipped out and broke the windows. Anyway I figured if I went ahead and brought her over here and married her I would soon find myself in a straight jacket in a rubber room. So I passed on her and well you know who came next...

Maxx         

[steviej]

Had something similar happen to me with the first RW I seen. She told me her ex went out of his mind one night and broke all the windows with a dumb bell. She then had him locked up in an insane asylum. She also told me a story about her mother, sister and the mafia trying to take her apartment away from her by beaming sound waves at her through the walls. Then there was her affair with a police officer she met when she lodged her complaint about the humming sound. I figure that she did this in retaliation against her husband because he would humiliate her by comparing her breast size with some actress on the TV and he did this to get her to stop nagging him. Her story about the mafia putting drugs in his cigarettes seemed far fetched as the reason why he flipped out and broke the windows. Anyway I figured if I went ahead and brought her over here and married her I would soon find myself in a straight jacket in a rubber room. So I passed on her and well you know who came next...

Maxx         

Who came next??
By the way, that woman you described sounds totally wacked! 

[Gator]

Anyway I figured if I went ahead and brought her over here and married her I would soon find myself in a straight jacket in a rubber room. So I passed on her and well you know who came next...
  

Maxx, you did well. If you had married the first, you would still be in a rubber room.  Instead, you are a free man today and able to laugh a little about it - a healthy sign.

BTW, did you leave out the part about a boob job?

[Ronnie]

Ronnie, it sounds as if the two teenaged daughters were not thrilled about you marrying their mama, otherwise they would have painted a more becoming picture of their mother's character.

The one who spilled the beans absolutely was against leaving her boyfriend (and her drug habit as it turned out).  We were sitting on our suitcases ready to go the train station and she still wasn't home.  She finally showed.  Too bad.  Had she not showed it would have saved me a bundle of money as I later had to send the whole lot of them back home.

The mother later confimed the elements of the story.  I asked her how she paid for the fabulous remodel of her flat complete with fancy appliances, many of which she didn't know how to use.  Turns out one of the married patient/lovers was a contractor.  She said her OB/GYN ordered her to take a lover or two...for her sexual and mental health!  Looks like it wasn't only her health that was restored.  Oh, he bought her a boob job too.

[Gator]

She said her OB/GYN ordered her to take a lover or two...for her sexual and mental health! 

I understand "use it or risk (ontopic) bad health" is common advice among Russian OB/GYN. 

  Good golf swing.  Copy of Johnny Miller?  Reverse C finish?  A glimpse of my swing below:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3538.msg64431#msg64431

[Ronnie]

  Good golf swing.  Copy of Johnny Miller?  Reverse C finish?  A glimpse of my swing below:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3538.msg64431#msg64431

Really?  There are two backstories to your comment (and thank you BTW).  First is that Miller and I had the same instructor (the late John Geertsen, Sr).
The second back story is the one golfer with the most exaggerated reverse "C" finish is Mike (Radar) Reid who was in my foursome when the picture was taken.  The event was a fundraiser for the BYU golf team.  It was a scramble format and, as I recall, the team that won in a playoff was captained by super competitor Danny Ainge who was himself a 2 handicap.  Lest you get the wrong impression, I never played golf as a student at BYU   I found getting beat up on the lacrosse field more suited to my abillities.

I can't mention Mike Reid without commenting that I believe I could live a thousand years and never meet a nicer gentleman. Johnny Miller calls Mike the "salt of the earth."  It was my impression that if every man were of his quality, all the words that are derogatory or uncomplimentary would soon drop from the dictionary as obsolete and archaic. 

Footnote on the photo:
If either John saw this photo, they would say, "your right side overpowered your left producing a pull-hook"  And, they'd be right. 

[Maxx2]

Irina's Breasts

Ma xx, you did well. If you had married the first, you would still be in a rubber room.  Instead, you are a free man today and able to laugh a little about it - a healthy sign.

BTW, did you leave out the part about a boob job?

Oh yeah I forgot. She took the money she got when she sold her two bedroom apartment in Kama Uralskiy Russia (near Ekaterinburg) and bought a much smaller one room apartment for her and her two kids Maxim and Alisa. It was one of those share the kitchen and bathroom down the hall with the neighbors sort of apartments. The rest of the money she had gotten went to buy some Soviet made breast implants. She was embarrassed by the way they looked. They didn't look natural. She told me that when she got to America she was going to get the biggest breast implants she could get. From her description they would be the size of two large pillows. I told her that that would look ridicules and that I wouldn't pay for them. She then said she would get a job and buy them them herself. I told her about Dolly Parton and how she was subject to allot jokes about the size of her breasts. Irina then asked me if I would have sex with Dolly Parton. I though for a moment and said honestly "well aha sure" and Irina then said "Then go to her" BTW I am not a boob man. 

Breasts were a big angry issue with Irina. I first noticed this when I played the movie Dracula that I had brought over with me. The version with Gary Oldman as Dracula and Anthony Hopkins as Van Helsing.  We were watching this and I pointed out that Winona Ryder in the movie was from Minnesota. Irina asked me if I thought Winona was beautiful. I said  "well aha sure" and Irina then said "Then go to her". Irina turned out to have a big jealous streak in her. We are watching the scene where Keane Reeves is being held captive in Dracula's castle. He is wondering about in the castle when he is discovered by Dracula's three wives.


Dracula's three wives. They look like Russian women to me, scary!

Keanue goes into some sort of trance and falls back onto a large orgy style bed of some sort.
The wives slither out from under the silk sheets one by one.
Their clothes start to fall off...
I hear this big inhale from Irina.
She sits up straight.
 


Irina: "THIS IS PORNOGRAPHY! IT IS PORNOGRAPHY!!"
Me: "No it's a big Hollywood production. Anthony Hopkins is in it."
Irina: "NO! IT IS PORNOGRAPHY! Do you see her breasts?!"
Me: "Ahh.. yes"
Irina: "Then I want to see his dick! You see her breasts? I want to see his dick! It is pornography!! take it off!!"

So I shut it off and Irina never did see Sir Anthony Hopkins' Academy Award nominated performance.

Irina said a lot interesting things like "All women name Irina are beautiful" and "All blonds are fat".   


"These people mean nothing to me" Irina was a hard core communist. She admired Stalin. I pointed out her that Stalin had killed allot of his own people. I said "10's of millions". Irina said that was nonsense and asked when this was supposed to happen. I said "in the twenties and thirties". She said, "Where did this happen?" I said "in the Ukraine". She said, "Well maybe Ukrainians..."
 
She blamed the infestation of ticks in the Russian forests as a result of the collapes of Communism. Hated Yeltsin as a sell out of the Soviet Union.

She also had a temper with people on the street. She would argue loud with some of the people working at the Kiosks. At the wax museum pictured above she got into it with a school teacher in front of her 2nd grade class. Irina wanted her and her class to get out of the way so I could take some pictures of Catherine the Great. After some loud arguing from Irina the teacher moved aside. I refused to take the picture. Irina got angry with me and said "You must hate me!" 

 
Man was I clueless in those days about women .


Irina was in bad mood. Sitting next to me was her little sister Tanya.
I found out later Irina did not like any young woman getting close to me. I found this out at this place.


The Children's Circus performing, the music group Chiaf (my favorite Russian band)

So we are sitting at the top row. Just behind us is an isle where 5 or 6 teenage Russian girls are standing. I am paying them no mind. I am not one to look at women especially if I am with one. Eyes straight ahead. So anyway Irina is getting like she was during the Dracula movie. I could feel it though she wasn't saying anything. Suddenly she pivots in her seat and starts yelling at them in a really angry tone. The young Russian girls looked scared and moved about a quarter away around the stadium.

This temper of her's had gotten her in trouble before. It seems two Russian women around the age of 23 at her apartment had beating her up. I asked why and Irina said it was because they were jealous of her because she had children and they didn't. 

After the concert which I really enjoyed we started to walk home. It was rather cold. This was in October right after 911 and Ekaterinburg is known for it's winters. So we duck into Kiosk that has about 80 square feet of floor space to warm up. In comes 4 Russian girls from the concert. Ah oh I didn't want a repeat of what happened before. So I made real effort to look into the counters at the merchandise and not at these attractive women. Suddenly Irina goes up to the counter and orders a Gin-n-tonic in a can and walks out. So I leave to. I go up to Irina and say "So you're drinking some Gin-n-tonic (Irina never drank alchohol)?" Irina turns and says "You can go back in with the girls. I know you want to". Finally I had enough and said "What?" You're crazy!" and walked away.

She could be nice and was a lot of the time but it seemed like every few days she would do or say something that made me glad I had not married her. The reason she said on why she was upset all the time with me was that I didn't present the K-1 papers right away. Finally she got really angry a few days before I was to leave. The tension was building because we hadn't filled out the fiancee papers. So she spit on the ground and said "I HATE YOU!" Later that evening after several silent hours she cooled off. The day before I was to leave she told me her story about the mafia trying to get her apartment away from her using sound waves. The neighbors wouldn't admit according to Irina to hearing this sound because they were too afraid of the mafia. The mafia according to her tried to run her over with a car but she scrambled out of the way just in time. I imagined this scene with Irina running with her high heel shoes that she always wore. She also told me that the woman Svetlana that ran the marriage agency was stalking her for some reason. Irina would sometimes look around frightened when out on the street. She told me that Svetlana was trying to get me away from her so that they could line me up with one of friends of the agency. This part was true I found out later. It was a friend of the daughter of one of the partners, an Elena B. I also found out why Irina made the effort to travel all the way from Ekaterinburg to Moscow (950 miles away). It was according to her so that no other Russian woman would steal me when I arrived at SVO II. I haven't felt so desired and wanted since... 

I am sure being married to Irina would have be an interesting experience.       


 
Maxx
 

 

[Maxx2]

Man! I spent a few hours putting this story together and yet not one response! Oh well it's like when Tom Sawyer found out that Moses fleeing Egypt was not a current event lost all interest.


Maxx

[Taz]

Maxx - I just had a chance to read it and found it fascinating. I for one appreciate the effort. I know all to well how much effort goes into these things. It is much easier to read the posts than to actually write them. Thanks!

[Swisskid]

Ditto Maxx

Irina reminds me of my American ex-wife.  She could not exist without self-created drama and would fly off the handle for no apparent reason other than to create drama.

You were wise to pass...

[Ooooops]

Man was I clueless in those days about women .

I'd say...      And how about now?   

[KenC]

Maxx,
Be careful what you ask for.

I for one didn't know this whole story and I appreciate your efforts in sharing.  But I gotta tell you, I find it strange that in all the Russian women available and dare I say easily available at the time you were searching, how on earth did you manage to pick two nut cases?  With all the high quality RW available and dying to get out of Dodge, why were you bottom feeding?  Your actions speak volumes regarding your self esteem.  I think men select women they think they deserve.  Why didn't you pick better women? :noidea:
KenC

[Gator]

Maxx,

Good story.  Why little response?  Most of us oldtimers knew the gist of the events, and perhaps those new to RWD are dumbfounded.

But I gotta tell you, I find it strange that in all the Russian women available and dare I say easily available at the time you were searching, how on earth did you manage to pick two nut cases?  With all the high quality RW available and dying to get out of Dodge, why were you bottom feeding?

My GUESS is that a number of circumstances doomed Maxx to his fate:

-  Prior to going to Russia, perhaps Maxx was somewhat of a novice around modern women from not having a lot of dates after his separation/divorce and from not having dalliances during his marriage.

-  He decided to do the RW wifey endeavor while still in a rebound when a man's mind is not so sharp.

-  As luck would have it, Maxx got involved with a bad agency in Russia.

-  Perhaps Maxx went WOVO (or something close to it) and did not have the benefit of comparing multiple candidates in his search for the love of his life.

-  After the nutcase Irina, any woman by comparison would seem normal.

-  "Elvira" was coached with regard to misleading Maxx and the agency worked in concert with her.

Change 2-3 of these, and Maxx probably would not have married Elvira.

[Maxx2]

I'd say...      And how about now?   

Clueless no more. We all are flawed in some way or another but with some things it is foolishness to forgive and try and make things work. Today I would have lasted about one episode with Irina and told her goodbye. Back then I was concerned about doing the "right thing". I had engaged in a long letter writing with her and only her. I was being monogamous. I was the nice guy and met her family (who seemed afraid of her). I took her and her kids to the Ekaterinburg zoo. She made and helped me with all my travel arrangements when there. I felt I would be a heel if I suddenly said "See ya" and went down to the local agency and started seeing other women. Now I know it is a mistake to involve one's self deeply before you meet them. I knew then that crazy never gets better and even if they love you they will make your life miserable and probably turn on you in the end. I knew this. But what I didn't know then was that is was unwise to commit myself with someone I hadn't met first and spent time with.

Where I messed up after my incident with Irina was not learning this lesson of not committing myself to one person. To me that part was successful instead of it being part of the problem. Irina was in my mind an aberration. So when I went back to Russian (getting back up on the horse that threw me) to find my future ex-wife I repeated this error with her. My future ex-wife was a breath of fresh air. I wasn't thinking at the time of the possibility of a Green Card Girl just on us being compatable. She did some odd things that I know now were red flags but they seemed to have a legitimate explanation. On my third visit to see her (we had spent about 6 weeks together before this) I married her. Lots of guys were doing K-3's then and it seemed the thing to do. What I had done by marrying her was to really deeply commit myself to her. She was my wife. I was a loyal to her as KenC is to his wife. So when I seen a problem here and there with her I kept it to myself and that was a mistake. So when I finally woke up and got some wisdom on this whole endeavor was when she stepped of the plane and acted for the first time coldly. My eyes opened at that point. A month later after watching her I consulted with an immigration attorney and he helped me find the right divorce attorney.  

Maxx        

[Maxx2]

Gator and KenC you ask some great questions and have some good observations. I have to get to work as I have an important business day ahead of me. So I write later this evening or late afternoon about your questions and observations.

Maxx

PS this thread should be divided and separated into another thread.

[KenC]

Maxx,
IIRC your ex (American) wife was also a nut job.  What is your attraction to these damaged women?
KenC

[msmoby_ru]

Maxx,

Good story.  Why little response?  Most of us oldtimers knew the gist of the events, and perhaps those new to RWD are dumbfounded.

My GUESS is that a number of circumstances doomed Maxx to his fate:


-  Perhaps Maxx went WOVO (or something close to it) and did not have the benefit of comparing multiple candidates in his search for the love of his life.

Oh YEAH, like THAT would be one of the reasons for "failure" ..

[KenC]

Oh YEAH, like THAT would be one of the reasons for "failure" ..

You know Mark,
Gator's comment is logical and right on the money.  Maxx went from a lunatic ex wife, to the lunatic RW he describes above, to a scamming green card whore who raked his butt over the coals.  Some interaction with a normal woman along the way could not have hurt Maxx in the least.  In fact maybe that is exactly what he needed to do; make some comparasons and actually identify what a "normal" woman is.

Even though I basically went to Russia to meet Lena; I did meet other RW and am glad I did.  By doing so, I took the romanticized part of just being in Russia out of the equation.  I was able to compare Lena to other RW and not just AW.

WOVO might have been the best way to go for you, but that doesn't mean "one size fits all.  Forget about pushing your personal agenda for a moment and open your mind to other possibilities.
KenC

[Blues Fairy]

Some interaction with a normal woman along the way could not have hurt Maxx in the least.  In fact maybe that is exactly what he needed to do; make some comparasons and actually identify what a "normal" woman is.

And yet you imply in your previous post that there is something in Maxx's character that draws him irresistibly to damaged women.  If that's the case, would comparison with "normal" women really have helped? 

[KenC]

And yet you imply in your previous post that there is something in Maxx's character that draws him irresistibly to damaged women.  If that's the case, would comparison with "normal" women really have helped? 

BF,
It sure would not have hurt him!  The "implication" was ment more as a question than a statement.  He does have a dubious track record of picking goofy women.

My point in meeting more RW is that many AM put off odd behavior displayed by RW as a cultural difference without any mind to the fact that there are goofy women every where.  (Goofy men too)
KenC

[msmoby_ru]

You know Mark,
Gator's comment is logical and right on the money. 

In your opinion .. as we see later .. your own advice appiles..

Maxx went from a lunatic ex wife, to the lunatic RW he describes above, to a scamming green card whore who raked his butt over the coals.  Some interaction with a normal woman along the way could not have hurt Maxx in the least.  In fact maybe that is exactly what he needed to do; make some comparasons and actually identify what a "normal" woman is.

Please tell us all - I've yet to meet the man / lady who hasn't wondered what "normal" is ..

Even though I basically went to Russia to meet Lena; I did meet other RW and am glad I did.  By doing so, I took the romanticized part of just being in Russia out of the equation.  I was able to compare Lena to other RW and not just AW.

..and it worked for YOU..  a "long" time ago, now ... a lot has changed, since then. Perceptions, expectations, etc.  FSU are far more savvy about WM, now ...   

WOVO might have been the best way to go for you, but that doesn't mean "one size fits all.  Forget about pushing your personal agenda for a moment and open your mind to other possibilities.
KenC

1/ it is NOT my "personal agenda", Ken - it worked for me, (but I knew the FSU and FSU folk, customs and some Russian) - just as your trip worked for you...

2/ I rather think it is more Gators "agenda" to advise against WOVO trips... 

3/ Is it "wise" for a guy who is "smarting" to go on a WMVM, either ?  I think, not just his or for the ladies sakes... he is just as likely to be taken for a ride by more ladies as he is likely to have his ego boosted...

[KenC]

In your opinion .. as we see later .. your own advice appiles..

Please tell us all - I've yet to meet the man / lady who hasn't wondered what "normal" is ..

I agree that "normal" is a relative term, but then how normal one is relative to others takes a much bigger sampling than just one.

..and it worked for YOU..  a "long" time ago, now ... a lot has changed, since then. Perceptions, expectations, etc.  FSU are far more savvy about WM, now ...

    Maxx went through all this about the same time as I went over,  We are talking past history here.

1/ it is NOT my personal "agenda, Ken - it worked for me, (but I knew the FSU and FSU folk, customs and some Russian) - just as your trip worked for you...

2/ I rather think it is more Gators "agenda" to advise against WOVO trips... 

Both are a matter of opinion.  You have your's and I have mine.  I have seen many different methods work over the years and I try to keep an open mind. (hint)  In this case, Gator's comments were still on the money.

3/ Is it "wise" for a guy who is "smarting" to go on a WMVM, either ?  I think, not for the ladies sakes... he is just as likely to be taken for a ride by more ladies as he is likely to have his ego boosted...

After a devastating divorce it is questionable if Maxx was mentally and emotionally prepared to meet any women let alone women from a different culture.  It would seem to me that in meeting a number of women, some good ones might have stood out from the rest.
KenC