Risky Business

[Ronnie]

I'd be curious to know how many marriages were concluded out of the necessity.

Too many marriages I observed were because of a pregnant girlfriend. I also heard some men say 'I marry her, if and when she gets pregnant from me'. Baby first, wedding ring second

Lily,
From what I "observed"  The weddings were being celebrated by very young men and woman..barely 21 or less. 

In all liklihood it's with the promise from parents that they can move into recently deceased grandma's apartment if they get married, thus live together and not have a set of parents in the next room.

[vwrw]

When I say maybe Elvira wan't as bad as Maxx paints, I'm told I'm guessing without foundation. 

Reading Maxx’s story I also have got impression that maybe Elvira was not as bad as Maxx depict her. 

[steviej]

.. but once in a while curiosity gets the best of me, and I read; like his email from a petite librarian guy who married the big Dominican woman who beat him every night while he was on his knees giving her oral sex... 

You have got to be kidding me ?? LOL     This is important information for men considering courtship of women in the FSU ?? 

This all does start to sound a little nuts ... How long ago was this, 5 years, this Elvira situation? What's he done over the past 5 years? Just make posts about it? That's a long time to be still crying in your beer I guess. Yes? Am I wrong about that impression?

[steviej]

If you read his ruling the judge said the scales of the evidence must tip in her favor.  If there was no tipping (i.e. his evidence was just as convincing as hers) he would not grant her request.  The judge weighed the evidence and ruled Elvira had met her burden, if ever so slightly.  So I can't agree with our characterization of "erring on the side of caution"

Ronnie, from what I know of my friend's case from my old neighborhood (in AW land ), and what I've read and heard, the majority of judges in the "he said she said" situation simply ignore the man's testimony and enter the woman's as a "finding of fact." Why do they do that? Politics, not justice. They would rather nail 100 men than let one go that then kills his girlfriend. It's not due process, it's not justice, but its what they do.

[Ronnie]

Correct Stevie.  And the more a story is told, the more it's embellished and more, previously forgotten episodes seem to fall from the sky.  Look, now I have to change hats and defend Maxx a bit.  His stories could be jot and tittle the way it happened without embellishment and without omitting anything he may have done to contribute to it.   What I'm asking is what did those who had access to all sides of the story decide?  If he had been convicted in a criminal court, the standard of proof is so high that we should all assume he was guilty as convicted and ignore his claims of innocence.

But Maxx has misled us a bit.  Inferring that Elvira and the system gave him an undeserved criminal record.  Well, as it turns out, that wasn't true but Maxx insists it's a mere technical distinction between a DV conviction in criminal court and a civil court judge awarding a stay away order to his ex wife.

Maxx seems to have found a certain notoriety in his status as a victim of a conniving RW and a biased system.  He's started a website for similar "victims" and they tell their equally pathetic, and equally uncredible stories. 

What else can explain Stevie's observation that 5 years is a long time to be crying in your beer...mighty salty beer by now and the sympathy from the bar mates can wear awfully thin.

Thank you VWRW.  Now I don't feel so alone.

[steviej]

Thank you VWRW.  Now I don't feel so alone.

Ronnie, your speculations on Elvira are certainly plausible. She might have been a borderline case, and decided that her man was basically nuts, and tried to get out somehow BUT ... stay in USA and get green card. That's not completely ruled out.

Or, Maxx really got the royal scam from soup to nuts, chick seduced him then dumped him in civil court for a green card. Its gotta burn to get taken like that. And these cases are good for newbies to look over and realize, yes, that could happen to them .... possibly ... if they do this with their eyes closed and their dicks out. I think its very important for newbies to understand the DV and green card loopholes. So maybe this website for victims is also a worth effort.

Or, sometimes in life, you get burned but you gotta leave it behind and move on. And if unresolved anger prevents you from moving on, you need professional help, sort of like PTSD, to help get that stuff at least to the side, if not behind, put it out of your mind and move on.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie, from what I know of my friend's case from my old neighborhood (in AW land ), and what I've read and heard, the majority of judges in the "he said she said" situation simply ignore the man's testimony and enter the woman's as a "finding of fact." Why do they do that? Politics, not justice. They would rather nail 100 men than let one go that then kills his girlfriend. It's not due process, it's not justice, but its what they do.

That could very well be Stevie.  I'm only going on what the transcript page Maxx posted said.  Would be interesting to read more on that transcript to see if the judge really did have reason to find Elvira met her burden.  I think, in this case the judge was looking for a reason to find against her.  He obviously didn't care for her and Maxx tells us that as well. 

The issue here is does a "stay away" order rise to the level of something that would prevent a future K1? .. the answer is NO according to K1 instructions.  Does it constitute a criminal record or the equivalent (if there is such a thing)?  Again NO.  Does it constitute grounds to have your name put into the terrorist watch list?  Of course, NO.  But, DHS is so screwed up they had Sen Kennedy on the list so Maxx could be there.  Or, there could be someone with the same name as Maxx.

[Ronnie]

Maxx, if you're still out there reading this, and other newbies.  Maxx got off easy, if he didn't have to pay her anything and she had to borrow from her mother in Russia to buy a train ticket out of town.   Had he filed an I-864 he could have been really screwed.  If he did file one with an AOS app, he got off very lucky indeed.

[Maxx2]

Guys, I got things to tell my story unlike anything I have ever seen by anyone.

I skimmed over the last few pages (I read them throughly after I post this). One of the issues kicked around is that you can't get any idea of what kind of person Elvira is by her own words. Well you can. I have detailed letter from her sent through the agency we used. The agency was an Angelika agency. Angelika has their agency partners keep the handwritten letters from their ladies that they translate from. This letter is from their translation sent to me in February 2002.

When I was working my investigation on this local Russian agency using Elena Garrett's Russian-Detective I sent Elena G. this letter. It made quite an impression on her. She translated it back into Russian and sent it to her head detective. At the end of the investigation he contacted Elvira's previous husband. Apparently he had been looking for his son using Interpol and the FSB. He worked at the local police academy as a hand to hand combat trainer. I know this sounds fantastic but it is true. Elvira told me this (she didn't always lie) and Russian-Detective confirmed this with their report about him. I hadn't told R-D about his occupation so this conformation along with other things they told me I knew they were doing a real investigation. Anyway I had been told by Elvira as she was getting ready to leave Russia that she had talked to him about his son going to America with her. She told me that he didn't care. This was early March of '03. I was relieved as this was a thorny issue. Three months later on a drive along the North Shore of Lake Superior we were talking. She told me that she had talked with mother. She laughed and said her mother had told her that her ex-husband had been down at the police station inquiring about the whereabouts of their son. She thought this was funny. I was surprised to hear this. I starting thinking that it was possible that this guy wasn't as bad as she portrayed him. In Russia I was told he was someone to steer clear of and was a man who didn't care about his son. You will see this in her letter.

I have one problem though. My scanner doesn't work. I tried downloading some software off the net (The scanner says it needs to be reprogrammed) for this but it still doesn't work. I will try and send this scanned letter tomorrow or this weekend using someone else's system. Elena Garrett seen this letter as very revealing about Elvira's character, attitudes etc. When I first read it I could tell Elvira had deep issues with her ex. But I didn't know that this would come around and bite me. I sure know now to steer clear of women with men's issues as strong as hers.

As I said yesterday I am tired of being analysed. Well, at least in negative way  . But I'll offer one bit of self analysis here. I have a better flight than fight responce. This kept me from being provoked during my marriage and out of harm's way during my separation and divorce. I was raised to "turn the other cheek" but not let someone keep hitting me over and over again. I was to walk away. And that is what I did in my marriage. I walked away and it surprised her (look back a few pages on my big post).  


Maxx

[Maxx2]

Now I am wondering , what level of evidence of DV is needed by the INS? Is a restraining order enough of a finding of fact for them to issue that order?

HiTech

I was told by Ms. Maki of I.C.E. that a judge's signature on a restraining order was enough to grant the petition. I have also been told by several immigration attorney's I have talked to that a woman's statement thaty she was abused is enough evidence to grant a self petition. This is in www.womenslaw.org website on how to get a LPR card:

http://www.womenslaw.org/en/US/laws_state_type_10270_all.html

Self-petitioner's detailed declaration
Evidence of self-petitioner's identity
Evidence of qualifying relationship to US citizen or lawful permanent resident
Evidence of abuser's status as a US citizen or lawful permanent resident
Evidence of good faith marriage
Evidence of battery or extreme cruelty (self-petitioner's declaration can be enough)
Evidence of past or present residence with abuser
Evidence of current residence

So with a protective order from a civil trial (with no rules evidence) and a statement that she had been a subject to "battery or extreme cruelty" she will probably have her self-petition granted.


Maxx

[Maxx2]

Reading Maxx’s story I also have got impression that maybe Elvira was not as bad as Maxx depict her. 

I don't write about the really bad things because I have learned from experience that people recoil from hearing them. I did this over at the other board and the RW there would get very upset. I found the natural inclination is to defend women and give them the benefit of the doubt. I guess I could cut and paste what I wrote and see the reaction.

[Maxx2]

This all does start to sound a little nuts ... How long ago was this, 5 years, this Elvira situation? What's he done over the past 5 years? Just make posts about it? That's a long time to be still crying in your beer I guess. Yes? Am I wrong about that impression?

Yes a little. Most guys disappear after a fall but I had gotten into a habit of posting on these boards like you. So when a thread like "Risky Business" comes along I contribute what I know. I haven't been motivated to find another RW and as you probably expect without that there isn't much sense posting here. My time might be short.


Maxx

[Maxx2]

I guess I could cut and paste what I wrote and see the reaction.

My Durge: UGLY UGLY MARRIAGE TO A RW wife and comments from a RW and FrankLloyd

I have talked with quite a few guys about their break up situations and I had my own. For me it was her sudden change in affection once she arrived here. She acted is if we were just casual aquantances. I told a friend that I felt like "I was a tour guide to a stranger". She would not walk close to me as she did in Russia. Even when I met her at the airport she gave me a small kiss and shoved the handle of her suit case into my hand with a "Here" and then sat at the far side of the taxi. Followed by sleeping in a separate bed with her son at the hotel.

Other things she did was not allow me to be friends with her friends. As example I would come home and they would leave right away even though I urged them to stay. Twice when I met them and my wife at a public place she insisted on leaving right away. They would call her to go someplace. She would then ask my permission as if she had to. I would say "you can go with them". She would then speak some Russian on the phone and hang up and go with me. The friends didn't like me much even though I went out of the way to be nice to them. I can only imagine what she was telling them.

Situation#1 She would doll herself up when going out with her friends like she did with me back in Russia.

Situation #2 With me she wore her hair in a tight bun. Light on the makeup.

Her clothing in these two situations matched her hair and makeup.

I would see men's names on the caller ID although that could easily be explained except one man and it was a man, kept calling all the time during the early mid-afternoon hours. I knew it was a man because I returned the call and heard his voice.

What else? She had a list of financial things that she insisted on me getting. The list was straight off the BCIS website (as the USCIS was called then) on necessary proofs of having a bona fide marriage. This is helpful in filing an I-360 abuse self petition. My divorce lawyer I seen secretly before the marriage broke up urged me not to further entangle myself financially with her. It proved to be very wise advice. I think even the DV judge was impressed with me on that one when he said in the court ruling, "If there is a insurance policy and I don't think there is, he is to maintain it" ...

She was ultra sensitive about "abuse". As example I rented a movie called "Saving Silverman". In the movie these 2 guys cloddishly spray beer on this stuckup woman. My ex's was offended as if I had did this to her instead. Making her watch such a thing and so on. Everything offended her such as not opening the car door fast enough, the wind blowing on her too hard or parking too far away. I made a mistake of not knowing exactly where in the Mall of America a certain restaurant was. We walked too far looking for it. She stormed off with her son and accused me of not caring about her son's need for his potatos. We got him french fries at McDonalds instead. If I walked into her son's bedroom (and her's too...) with my shoes on I was accused of not caring about her son's health with the "microbes" I was carrying in on the soles of my shoes.

Once she insisted that we stay at a Mc Donalds restaurant for 3 hours until her son was finished playing a video game there. She slept with her son everynight except once (May 23rd 2003) and that time I believe was just to show me what I was missing. Her son dictated what time they were to go to bed together (9:30 PM).

She wouldn't say hello to me when I came home at night. If I talked to her she would ignor me. If I continued to talk to her she would finally look at me with a cold look and say "What??" and then go back to watching the "E " channel.

The only time she would brighten is when I took her someplace to buy her something. If I took her grocery shopping she would fill the cart with no concern about how much things would cost. Her son would run up and down the isles grabbing toys and goodies and throw them into the cart. If I objected she would accuse me of "denying" her son.

One of the last family things we did was a trip to Valley Fair amusement park on 4th of July. She brought in her purse 2 20oz Pepsi bottles filled with strong 6.9% beer. She drank those and a half of a big stein of beer at a pizza place there ( I don't drink BTW) She weaved through the parking lot as we left early during the fireworks display. The noise was bothering her ears. I wasn't blamed for that though.

Overall I got the strong strong impression she resented having to live with me. It was as if America was her right and I had no business or use in her life once she got here.

I asked her if she loved me. She laughed like in "you got to be kidding me". Stupid question I know.

Maxx

RED FLAGS and OTHER STRANGENESS

There were lots of red flags but I misinterpreted them as something else. As example she didn't seem to be interested in learning much about where I lived. I read this as her not wanting to jinx things. I knew something about RW and knew that they had their superstitions. The real reason of course was that she had no intention of staying with me.

Another red flag was that I was kept a close family secret. Only she, her mother, her brother and her cousin knew about me, Not even her father or aunts knew of me. This was supposed to be so her abusive ex-husband who worked with the police would not interfer with us. So I was in her words her "agent zero zero seven". The real reason of course for keeping me secret was that she did not want the part of her family she could not control to tip me off.

Also I believe she was going to reinvent herself with them about how she got to America. She is a master at taking bits of truth and twisting them into very believable lies. I remember when we drove through Chicago, Illinois on the way to Minneapolis, Minnesota she took allot of photos of Chicago including ones of things with the name of 'Chicago' on them. I didn't think much about this at the time until a RWG member who met her after she left told me something she said to him. She told him she was from Chicago. The man she was with was probably told the same story. She probably did not tell him the truth about me. This woman was a woman of secrets.

Another red flag was her overall nervousness. I misinterpreted that as her being a sensitive women and placed in difficult position of emmigrating with all the unknown there and having this "sword" of an abusive ex hanging over her head. The real reason for her nervousness was she was pulling this scam on me.

Allot of these marriages are full of fire. It's the kiss and makeup that counts. It's the ones where the wife has plotted to leave from the beginning that can't be saved. Allot of these women despise their husbands because they fooled them and do their best to ruin them. The scammer hates the victim. Transference is what I believe it was called. I talked to grown son of a man who this happened to. He said "What happened did not surprise me. But what did surprise me was the level that she took it. You would think that on some level she would have sympathy for him but I had no idea how cruel she could be" This was about a woman from Russia who had a Russian boyfriend waiting for her when she arrived to America as another man's fiancee. She met with her boyfriend on her second day here and together these two conspired to ruin the husband's life. Jail, criminal charges, restraining order, kept from his apartment he owned, lost his good job and now has cancer. How could such a marriage be saved?

A Letter from A RW to me

“I think there is nothing wrong with how you present yourself on this board, no matter who says or how it is said, there will be always people who will not want to hear about the risks and downfalls of long distance-international relationships. As far as I can see, more people support you than not, but those who want to silent you are louder and play not fairly. The people whose opinion would matter for me, all acknowledge you and think no bad of you and your mission, so let the others show their true colours, it speaks about them and not about you.”

From Franklloyd

I dropped in here to say that reading Maxx's thread almost 4 years ago helped me open my eyes as I was about to be massacred by my first Russian fiancee. I sensed the problem via the drop in her interest level (sexual and otherwise) over my two week visit at Noviyy God 2004. Maxx put me on to Elena Garrett, I got the clarity and the facts I needed, and it cleared me to find a good and decent RW who loves me and wants to put in the effort to make our marriage work.

In hindsight and with the benefit of some additional info that has come my way, I believe that my first fiancee's ultimate scheme was, in concert with her ex-husband, to play her ex-husband's refusal sign the papers to allow their 3-year-old son to emigrate into a major-league ransom for his signature - maybe $50K-$100K. I'm clear that she had no intention to leave Omsk, she would have reunited with her ex, or just split the money. Nice!

Thanks again, Maxx!

[Ronnie]

I was told by Ms. Maki of I.C.E. that a judge's signature on a restraining order was enough to grant the petition.


So with a protective order from a civil trial (with no rules evidence) and a statement that she had been a subject to "battery or extreme cruelty" she will probably have her self-petition granted.
Maxx

Well Maxx, While were were talking about eligibility for a future K1 you have smoothly changed the subject to approval of a woman's self-petition for removal of conditional status.

Why would you be quoting an ICE employee.  Is ICE approving immigration petitions now?  I hadn't heard.  I thought they were still in the business of enforcing orders.

Now about your conclusion above.  What does "with no rules evidence" mean?  I don't understand "rules evidence"   Anyway your conclusion seems to be saying that a restraining order would strengthen her case for approval of a self petition.  It would, if the judge found "battery or exteme cruelty"  but if he did not, it would contradict and weaken her declaration to that effect, wouldn't it?

She makes a "Declaration" under penalty of purjury that a man struck her or subjected her to extreme cruelty and then a judge hears the evidence and says "no battery , no extreme cruelty...maybe some pushing and shoving from both sides" and that's going to strengthen her case?  I would not draw the same conclusion as you Maxx.

Besides, Why in heaven's name would she have to claim battery or cruelty to have her LRP restrictions removed?  She doesn't.  I know, it's a much more sure route and if she was coached to make that statement falsely by an attorney, he/she should be sanctioned by the bar.  That's something you could put some time into, Maxx.

Anyway, You really should let Elvira go from your mind.  Look to your future.  You've learned a lot from the experience.  If you think another RW is in your future then go for it.  Just make sure the one you choose shows empathy for others and you'll probably be fine.

[Maxx2]

Well Maxx, While were were talking about eligibility for a future K1 you have smoothly changed the subject to approval of a woman's self-petition for removal of conditional status.

I was answering HiTech's question.   

Why would you be quoting an ICE employee.  Is ICE approving immigration petitions now?  I hadn't heard.  I thought they were still in the business of enforcing orders.

She has a much better understanding of this subject than most.

Now about your conclusion above.  What does "with no rules evidence" mean?  I don't understand "rules evidence"   Anyway your conclusion seems to be saying that a restraining order would strengthen her case for approval of a self petition.  It would, if the judge found "battery or exteme cruelty"  but if he did not, it would contradict and weaken her declaration to that effect, wouldn't it?

"Rules of evidence" has to do with the rules of how evidence is presented. As example in a criminal trial a defendant (as I was called BTW) has the right to know what witnesses are going to be used against him and to question witnesses before the trial. The same goes with any evidence or charges that are going to be levied against him. With Rules of Evidence a person has an opportunity to prepare his defense. In a civil trial for a restraining order it's like being bushwhacked. You have no idea what is going to be said about you and who will say it. You have no idea what document will be pulled out and used against you. You might have things to counter all of this, witnesses of your own and so on. But you may not know that it is important to bring these or them.

A protective order is just something for a USCIS VAWA bureaucrat to check as "proof" of abuse. There is a VAWA staff of about 40 in Vermont and they get about 10,000 petitions a year (9,500 FY 2007) and they are under allot of pressure to pass these through quickly.     

She makes a "Declaration" under penalty of purjury that a man struck her or subjected her to extreme cruelty and then a judge hears the evidence and says "no battery , no extreme cruelty...maybe some pushing and shoving from both sides" and that's going to strengthen her case?  I would not draw the same conclusion as you Maxx.

There is no threshhold level on abuse. ANY abuse is considered grounds to grant the petition. Frankly the USCIS does not want to argue these cases before a immigration judge. They can't be bothered so they wink them through.

Besides, Why in heaven's name would she have to claim battery or cruelty to have her LRP restrictions removed?  She doesn't.  I know, it's a much more sure route and if she was coached to make that statement falsely by an attorney, he/she should be sanctioned by the bar.  That's something you could put some time into, Maxx.

Some of these women ENJOY doing this to their men. And most do not know they do not have go to extremes to get their LPR card. Then some do this just to be safe.
As far as lawyers and the bar. I know a lawyer in NYC who has a video tape he made that he shows his women clients on how to stage a false abuse claim. There are other stories too. It's the Wild West out East and nobody is stopping them.   

Anyway, You really should let Elvira go from your mind.  Look to your future.  You've learned a lot from the experience.  If you think another RW is in your future then go for it.  Just make sure the one you choose shows empathy for others and you'll probably be fine.

Thanks Ronnie, I'll post Elvira's letter first before I do. I want to be done with this subject.

[Ronnie]

Okay Maxx, I guess I should have mentally inserted the word "of" when you wrote Rules Evidence, I thought for a second that that was what you meant to say but couldn't be sure, because the rules of evidence do apply in civil matters as well. 

You were labelled a "defendant' and that term is used in civil matters though many states are moving the terminology from Plaintiff to Petitioner and from Defendant to Respondent in family matters.  The term defendant does not imply a criminal trial nonetheless.

You mentioned being ambushed by witnesses with no warning.  That may have been the case in an emergency hearing but in civil/divorce trials, the parties must exchange witness lists so many days prior.  Often, attorney receive them and fail to discuss them with their clients, so it appears to the client that there was not warning of who would be testifying.  If a witness is not on the list, the opposing party can simply object to the witness tesifying and the judge will usually not permit the testimony without a compelling reason the witness was not listed. 

To make a long story short maxx, Rules of Evidence are basic to any legal proceeding, whether civil or criminal.  Are the rules broken by poor judges and inept attorneys?   Every day, sad to say.  That's why there are appeals.

[Maxx2]

You mentioned being ambushed by witnesses with no warning.  That may have been the case in an emergency hearing but in civil/divorce trials, the parties must exchange witness lists so many days prior. 

Not in a civil trial for a protective order in the state of Minnesota. I think the reasoning is that in a civil trial there is no chance of going to jail as a result of this trial. However if the judge determines that a real crime had taken place he can order a criminal prosecution. The prosecutor can do the same. Then with that all the Rules of Evidence come to play in preparing for the criminal trial.

This shelving the Rules of Evidence is also supposed to be so that the woman can quick be protected by a protective order. Only I do not understand this reasoning as a temporary protective order (which I had served on me by the Sheriff) acts the same.

Ugly subject

[Gator]

Two options:

Ronnie, your speculations on Elvira are certainly plausible. She might have been a borderline case, and decided that her man was basically nuts, and tried to get out somehow BUT ... stay in USA and get green card. That's not completely ruled out.

Or, Maxx really got the royal scam from soup to nuts, chick seduced him then dumped him in civil court for a green card. Its gotta burn to get taken like that. And these cases are good for newbies to look over and realize, yes, that could happen to them .... possibly ... if they do this with their eyes closed and their dicks out. I think its very important for newbies to understand the DV and green card loopholes. So maybe this website for victims is also a worth effort.

I vote for the second having read the story for 4-5 years.  With regard to Maxx's sanity, we all have questioned his rationale for posting here.  Yet, I find the story very useful.

For those thinking Elvira could be a misunderstood angel or questioning Maxx's sanity, some of you did not read Maxx's descriptions of Elvira's behavior that he reported years ago, such as her private ceremonies that seemed like voodoo. 

Personally, I think the false-DV charges option is HELL for a RW.  Having to live in a shelter, especially with a kid.   Forgo the man's support.  It is better and more likely that a RW somehow hang in there for a couple of years, milk the man as much as she can, get a secure job (or find a solid man), and then divorce after the green card - obtaining a larger divorce settlement because of a longer marriage.  Considering the speed of Elvira's actions, she surely had this planned before she left Russia.  So the speed did Maxx a favor, other than the tainting of his clean record.

The disputed Chester Arthur study of 5 years ago reported based on its survey:

1.   Over 98% of the women seeking western husbands via introduction services are aware of the ability to file violence charges against a western man
2.   84% of the women seeking western husbands via introduction services have no moral or ethical qualms about false domestic violence charges if it serves their purposes.

[Maxx2]

Ronnie, your speculations on Elvira are certainly plausible. She might have been a borderline case, and decided that her man was basically nuts, and tried to get out somehow BUT ... stay in USA and get green card. That's not completely ruled out.

stevej, using my experience as a lesson for others and doing so year after year puts me under all sorts of negative speculation. This is my last attempt at doing this.

I appreciate Gator and AJ's belief in me. Thanks guys. I will be leaving after this thread and closing the Elvira book forever so thanks again for keeping name positive.

stevej, as far as the nuts comment goes. What happened to me and to others I talked to is this. These women, those who want a Green card but not the man that comes with it, do their best to push their man over the edge. They use either the fire or ice treatment. Some try and provoke their men into hitting them. Others put their men through the cold treatment hoping that his resulting depression or sadness will be interpreted as a mental condition. Whatever the results are from the men they are usually exaggerated big time. Of course there is no mention by the wives of their provocation on their I-360 self petition. 

stevej I'll use you as example of how it would have gone if your wife wasn't a sincere woman and decided to use the cold treatment on you.

You are at the airport waiting for your wife (you married in the FSU) to arrive. You are anxiously waiting for to see her for the first time in America. It's really exciting! Finally you see her. She shoots you a quick smile. Walks up to you without smiling gives you at 1 tenth of a second kiss like a bird pecking at bird seed. Then shoves the handle of her carrying case into your hand and sharply says "here". She sits at the far side of the cab away from you. Back at your hotel room she sleeps in a separate bed from you.

The next day as you are driving her to your home 900 miles away (she didn't want to take another flight) she tells you she doesn't want to live in your State. She tells you where she wants to live instead and all of them are 1500 miles + from where you live. You think that she might change her mind after she sees where you live as it is quite nice. At the truck stops and at the places you stop at you notice another change in her. She doesn't walk close to you. She always walks at least a few feet apart from you. This seems very strange to you as see her making sure she keeps a distance from you. There is no sign of affection from her.

Back at your home things do not get better with her. She has decided from the first night to sleep in a separate bedroom from you. Every night at about 9:30 she leaves you and goes to her bedroom. All her clothes are kept in that bedroom's closet. She uses the bathroom next to her bedroom as her bathroom. Your bedroom and bathroom only has your things. All except your closet.

The walk in closet that would be yours is converted into a "church" by her. Your things like a pair of shoes are kept out of "my church" as she calls it. "Bad energy?" you think she thinks. In her church besides Orthodox icons and candles she has her East Indian meditation chant tapes, Tarot cards and a Crystal ball. There is evidence with a paper laying on the floor of "automatic writing" to select a lottery number. She tells you that if she wins the lottery that you are not going to get any of her winnings. She doesn't win.   

Sex? Your wife comes to your bedroom dressed in a blue silk night robe. She quickly disrobes in gets into bed with you. Her eyes are closed. She insists on no foreplay. You are to wear a condom. You are not to touch her with your hands. Well maybe just a little with her breasts but you are to hurry and finish as quick as you can. As she lays there, not moving, she opens her eyes for a second and says "Ugg face!" You let this pass and you finish. She lays with you for a minute. Then gets up and goes to her bathroom. You hear the water running. She goes back to her room. The door is shuts. The sex is at most is just one a week and this is just after a month after she arrived. It's not much of a loss to you as sex with her is frankly... depressing. You wonder if that is her intent.

You notice that she is getting colder and colder toward you. Most of the time when you come home from work she will not say hello to you. There is virtually no conversation from her. She does talk now and the. In one of her conversations she tells you "Remember those flowers you sent me with your first letter?" You say "Yes, of course". She says "I didn't want to write you. But Alex (the agency owner) said I should since you sent me flowers".

Your wife's friends? They are her friends and not yours upon her insistence. She developing her own social life apart from you.

So stevej what is your responce to all of this? You consult with an immigration attorney 5 weeks after she gets here. You are told that you will most likely face false domestic charges by her to secure a green card. Also you are told that it is possible that if you avoid these charges the BCIS (USCIS) might consider that you were part of a immigration fraud scheme to bring her into the country. What do you do? You have the attorney prepare a document declaring your intent and a brief on the law.









So stevej you are briefed about fraudulent marriages and about the use of false DV charges to secure a green card.

Now you go home and her friends are there. Two Russian women with their children. You say, "Hi good to see you". They look at your wife and say "We are going now" and quickly dress their children. Your wife says nothing to them about  staying and visiting with you. You think "She doesn't want them to see that I am friendly good guy. I wonder what she is telling them about me?".

Another time you come home and one of her friends is there. She is drunk and so is your wife. Loud Russian music is playing and bottles of beer are placed on the floor. You open your refrigerator. It is empty. You wonder where all the food went. It was full that morning. Her friend speaks up, "Why don't you give Elvira more money?" She repeats, "Why don't you give Elvira more money? We went to Bonadventure mall today and Daniel wanted a milk. Elvira didn't have any money to buy him a milk (you were paying for all living costs and giving your wife a $100 a week for extras for herself). Daniel is a good boy and he deserved a milk". You say "Well money is tight right now. I am sending allot of money to Russia to help her mother so I don't have much left over". "Elvira? says her friend "Is this true? Why didn't you tell me this?" Your wife starts to cry and goes to her bathroom.

I could go on and on stevej but the end result from all of this was that it wore on me. I looked depressed and that was spun by her to help her case.

I know at some point all of this posting by me has to stop. This matters very little to me now as I see that my experience can be nullified by casting doubt on me. I leave it to AJ, Gator, KenC, BC and others to take what I have given and use it usefully to help others.


Maxx       



   

       
     

[steviej]

You are at the airport waiting for your wife (you married in the FSU) to arrive. You are anxiously waiting for to see her for the first time in America. It's really exciting! Finally you see her. She shoots you a quick smile. Walks up to you without smiling gives you at 1 tenth of a second kiss like a bird pecking at bird seed. Then shoves the handle of her carrying case into your hand and sharply says "here". She sits at the far side of the cab away from you. Back at your hotel room she sleeps in a separate bed from you.

Maxx, I'm apologize for offending you with the term "nuts." That was the wrong way to put it. I was just trying to say that Ronnie's idea was not completely implausible.

I didn't realize you actually got married in Russia. It makes more sense to me now how everything could have seemed wonderful, and then when she arrived, everytihng's in the tank. As you describe her behavior when she arrived, you must've had feelings that you were scammed within 2-3 days, I would think. Right?

It makes me wonder, should RWD recommend you don't get married in her country first? Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe the GCG can keep it going for another 90 days anyway if she wants?

Whatever you did proactively about the divorce seems to have worked for you and minimized the financial damage. Thank goodness for that.

[groovlstk]

I don't understand why guys want to pick Maxx apart.

Several years ago, I dated several women like Elvira in the US who were divorced from their American husbands. The last was a gorgeous blonde woman from Ukraine who had been in the US all of two weeks before sticking her feet back into the dating pool. (I had no idea she was engaged until we dated, and when I asked her if she loved her husband she looked at me incredulously and responded with two words: "he's hispanic.")

If you don't want to accept the specifics maybe it's best to look at Maxx's story as a parable - it HAS happened before, it IS happening to some poor shmucks nearby as I write this, and it WILL happen to others.

What is also noteworthy from Maxx's story is the acceptance that many Russian expats have of such situations and their willingness to lie in order to help a woman out regardless of the effect it has on her blameless husband. The last time I noted this here someone accused me of travelling in bad circles w/people who were not the norm for Russian expats, but like so many others in this venture I believe some men simply refuse to see the truth.

[Jumper]

ronnie said

AJ,
I admit I haven't read the full account but I have read much of what Maxx wrote 4-5 years ago.   What I have not read is a single word from Elvira.  Maybe you could direct me to her postings. Or, so as not to trouble you too much, could you summarize her version of events

LOL wtf..
Thats more than a  little condesending Ronnie?
considering your whole *bit * debating maxx about Elvira here,
 is completely based on your very own conjecture and speculation.

Simply  put, while saying we "Can't know"
you certainly don't!
and admit to not  even reading the whole story.
 So that seems a rather tall  horse you're on?
While you could be right about her, your opinion on Elvira is certainly no more founded than anyone else's.

If its so hard for you to imagine there are cases of absolute fraud and insincerety in immigration thru marriage..
so be it,but they do exist.
Was Elvira such a case?
you're right-
 I don't know, neither do you.

so since you brought it up,,
if you have her posts, and anything that supports a good initial intent on her part in maxxs marriage, provide it.
If you have any proof that the fundamentals of maxxs tale are inaccurate, provide them as well
 or get off the soapbox you seem tgo be on for several pages.

Since you din't even bother to read it all,
I'm not going to go back 5 years to find the specific things she did,
 or said, (yes from maxs account) that founded my overall opinion of her position in this, and his part as well.

but if you are going to so strongly debate her on the side of decent initial intent (as you do by taking maxx to task)
you might want to provide something ,anything?

At the very least he is providing his account and backing it up with something.
you have nadda.
Just stating the obviuos ,that we only have maxxs side ..so he *could* be wrong about her.
 

was she as bad as Maxx portrays?
maybe yes, maybe no.
i don't know ,neither do you.

There have been plenty of both type of cases..
1.where the woman was sincere,and hoping for the best
 but things dint work out
2. pure immigration fraud.

and there are even a lot of shades inbetwen.
one being-
3.those who might stay with thier husbands thru immirgration, and if the situation is "ok " enough stay the course.
(if maxx would have pulled up stakes and moved her to a mansion in malibu,like she wanted, let her live in another part of the house and party with al her friends ,staying out of the way and leaving her alone,
 odds are she would have hung out awhile eh?why not?)

Sorry i cant give you Elviras posted internet take on where
she falls in these scenerio's.LMAO!

Again i ask does it matter to the threads intent if showing added risk??

Because the added risk ,or "risky business"is illustrated well by maxxs story?
The unknown motivations of the RW involved
The sometimes lack of experince and naivte  in the WM
The limited time of the couple t oknow eacg other ,or to overlook
things because of the time limits , or tossed off as cultural diffrences

Those are real added risks,
They are the very REAL foundations of maxxs story?

Having seen any number of the above scenerios .. in various people firsthand,
i have no reason to not believe him, and i have read
his complete tale and supporting  documents and such over the 5 years.
I have told Maxx countless times that iMHO, he was extreemly LUCKY ,
as Elivira just wasnt that smart!! His own good reactions of getting informed , and laying low, helped out as well of course.
I also gave him tons of grief when he first posted his story,for his own hand in it.

My opinion on this case , is that while she might not be the devil incarnate,, she certainly was immature beyond belief,incredibly selfish and certainly planned to use maxx either short term or long term,,like she had her past 4 husbands ,with little regard for thier welfare.
It happens in domestic marriages as well.

 My opinion doesn't match yours,but it certainly has just as much foundation to forming it .

 You want to rally to the support of the RW who had decent intent in marriage..(me too)but you have absolutely zero foundation to think Elvira is one of them.
I hope it makes you feel better that "you're right"
neither of us really knows.
but since we DON'T know 100%,then why isn't  maxx given the same benefit of the doubt as Elvira,,?
who ,as you quite accurately bust my ass about, hasnt told her side,and we cant know anything about it.

there's Maxx side.(quite plausible)
and a side we dont know a thing about.
(where the judge POINTEDLY stated that he felt this case likely did not meet the INS standard duh! )
 To use the fact the judge knew both sides and decided as he did ,
to throw ambiguity on maxx is ridiculas when considering just what the judge said,and how these Res.Order cases are handled in general.

There's something to be said for not kicking a man when he's down,
 and maxx was kicked long and hard, way back when!!

I think he is over it, has always kept a pretty good attitude and sense of humour about it, and about those sniping him ..(for no real reason)
and he posts on a subject that was a focal point of his life back then.

 I know more than a few RW in the FSU, and in the States,
that are more than capable of doing exactly what maxx portrays,and worse. US Immigration thru marriage(wether they were sincere
or not,and wether they remain married or not, )  is smply not  that difficult.The hard part is the statistical odds of a RW meeting someone ,that could ,and would file.. THATs the reality.

Within the context on a *risky business* thread..
That Risk seems the important point.

Not wether as a group, we can find out if Elvira fits that mold exactly? and do so ,by using her very own words  

 Carry on!
heck i did,and  this place always does!! LOL!

 

[Jumper]

sorry groov,
 we posted the same basic thoughts, at the same moment almost.



Maxx, i hope you finish your complete tale in the other thread.
The whole story is interesting,helpful and very relevent .
Despite the frustating  ease that doubts can be cast on it ,by a post here or there, the general reader can decide that and will benefit.
So give the readers the benefit of the doubt to sort it out as well.

 I also hope you keep your options open to marry a woman of any nationality.
5 years later you are certainly in a position in experience and life that you would make better choices? or at the very least increase your odds of "good luck" by recognizing the "nutcases' a bit sooner

I've a good Fla friend age 50,and like yourself  a fundementally good
hearted  person,
 He is recently married,(last year) and now in absolute he!! with this woman.No she is not Russian, a local pensacola woman he knew well, for years, of about the same age and background,
but for whatever reasons, has turned on him big time now.
It happens.

Your past case illustrates the dangers and risks with these RW scenerios.
His to me, illustrates that while he could have had equal failure elsewhere, maybe he could have had just as good of shot at success if looking abroad.. at least have it as an option?
I wish he would have at least considered it, seeing him now.As there are so many nice 40 to 50 yo RW that would have likely been very and genuinely interested in him,and very few (IMHO) that would be trying to take him to the cleaners now.
 

 

[Gator]

Maxx,

The RWD crowd is divided into three camps:  those who know or feel that your story is true and know that it is a real risk, a few who doubt you for whatever reason, and newbies who didn’t know about this risk.  You are helping the third group to at least think more carefully. 

Adding to your lesson are the stories of those other men who have suffered the same.  No one else would have pulled these together.

It must still hurt to bare your soul.  You should stop doing that.   I would like to see you continue the other thread you started.  You gave us some previews of real gems about agencies. 

[BC]

I know at some point all of this posting by me has to stop. This matters very little to me now as I see that my experience can be nullified by casting doubt on me. I leave it to AJ, Gator, KenC, BC and others to take what I have given and use it usefully to help others.

Maxx       

Those that have known Maxx over the years know best that he has been through probably one of the worst emotional wringers that can be imagined besides loss of life or major limb(s) or grave illness to those close.  At times I did not think he would survive.

Cause, fault and other aspects have been discussed and explored to death since day1. The details are unimportant, Maxx is a different man today than the one I 'met' many years ago.. that is what is immensely important.  We have never met, probably never will, but somehow if we do meet one day at a gathering, I would have no hesitation in introducing him as a friend.  Even after the many bashings I posted across multiple boards that evoked hostility, I'm confident he would reciprocate today.

A damn good read, although old that is probably as valid today as then and quite pertinent to this thread:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1706.0

Lemme explain sumthin to you I learned from 4 years of being an LEO. Basically, in general, human beings suck. This includes the fairer sex. Women are capable of the most despicable acts known to man and only men who are lonely or lack confidence in dealing with them place them upon a pedestal. By doing so you often forfeit your own sense of worth, a bad move.
Now don't get me wrong, they have their place in the grand scheme of things and I like them too. I'm not saying they should be abused, or even used, but any man who waxes poetic about women in general is an ignorant fool and is just cruising for a bruising. Chicks are just people and because of their emotions, are often a mass of conflicting logic. Lol, compared to us they're continually operating in something akin to an altered state.
My experience is that the vast majority of FSU women have some form of hidden agenda, as do most women. That agenda can be overtly evil or so sugar coated it's barely perceptable. Even the sweet ones (and I've met some very sweet ones) are always looking for an angle, especially in the beginning of a relationship. That agenda may vanish if she becomes sweet on you but it lives on if she doesn't. This is true of most women and with FSU women that cultural seed was planted and took root long before some American smuck like you came along.
How Joe Smuck deals with it, how he pierces the fog of his own emotions when dealing with them, is the key to seeing what they may become in the future. In general, most of the men involved in this lack experience with woman in general or allow thier loneliness to run their brain. This seems to be what happened to you. Hopefully you've now learned a lesson.
Be extremely careful around all women. Love the one you think is right for you but never forget she's still only a woman, simply another human being who'll eat your lunch in a heartbeat. They aren't anything special, not even close. And never delude yourself into thinking a particular one is, because they all seem to be when you're just starting out with one. Yeah, I've heard they're all individuals. Hell, everyone is an individual...just like everyone else. Understand?
The fact is they're just like men, animals. Only worse. At least you know why you got involved in this. The key is to never depend on anyone for your happiness or confidence, especially someone you've placed in a position to hurt you. Thats not saying you shouldn't trust them, it's saying you shouldn't need them. Its better to have a woman around than not, but to need one is the single greatest crutch most MOB men have. And when the hidden agenda reveals itself, most no longer have a leg to stand on.
Don't feel too bad, you ain't alone. What a pal of mine calls the "Power of the Bush" has long caused problems for men. Throughout history kingdoms have fallen, wars fought, entire countries changed, all because of it. Since it comes from within ourselves the POB is one of the most potent forces in the universe. Never underestimate it or shrug it off. In fact, be afraid...be very afraid. Respecting and understanding it as well as learning to deal with it will save you mountains of grief. In some ways what just happened to you was a good thing.
In essence, wise up and consider women an enhancement to life, not a neccessity. You come first, they don't. Take care of number one in the future, never lose sight of that and you'll *probally* do ok.

The last paragraph is especially fitting Maxx, I think you have now learned this well but a reminder never hurts.
  

Maxx, I'll close out with the same words I posted well over two years ago:


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1706.msg35829#msg35829

Maxx,

Better to leave the 'world on your shoulders' thing to the gods.. We humans end up with earth in our face trying such a load.

Reality is that you can't save em all, especially in this realm.

Nothing wrong with jumping in, nothing wrong with bowing out gracefully.

Cheers and Godspeed!