Russia is at it again!

[Jack]

LOL yes I think you could say that about most of the parts of the SU, more or less, don't you think? The fact was that they were a part of the SU.

Yes, I think that could be said about most the Soviet Union as many of the land/countries/territories had little say.

Diverboy I am not so familiar with Finnish history. What about Finland?  Has Russia ever taken any of the territories of Finland and still occupy that land today?

[BC]

Maybe, but this would only confirm that Russia can only deal with other countries through an imperial prism.

Doesn't your statement also present a double standard?

[Misha]

Doesn't your statement also present a double standard?

Where is the double-standard? Yes, Russia is having a hard time getting over the loss of its empire (Russian and Soviet), but that is Russia's problem and shouldn't be used to justify attempts to control its "near abroad." The fact of the matter is that there were a number of empires that collapsed after WWI and this wouldn't justify Austria, for example, invading Hungary or other parts of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire or France invading Algeria because it considers it part of its sphere of influence. The fact that country X used to be part of Empire Y is no country for it to be considered part of the "sphere of influence" of another country.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,

Apologies are not needed, blast away but I must admit I have a hard time keeping up.  Think quality and not quantity, as you do repeat yourself quite often.

Georgia is a US ally.. , one that the US does not have under control.. more or less a loose cannon.  This leaves two choices.. did the US know what was happening or were they 'surprised'.. will leave that up to you.

There was a response that was also a 'surprise'.. and over which they had very little options to control.

Do they want to send troops in? according to Gates, no.  Can they even assure the Georgian government backing to keep their ports and airfields open? Gates again says no..

Will RU support their citizens? They are doing it.. Did RU say Georgia's sovereignty be damned? Yes they did.

Add the two and figure it out.

US and other interested parties can only huff and puff.  Sure.. raise the ante.. but by how much.. enough to risk every bit of progress that has been achieved over the last 40 or so years and risk going back into the dark ages?

Yeah, life is slow down here but it does give us time to think and it seems that is exactly what you don't have.

How is the dialogue turning to "what did the US know and when did it know it?"
 
Let's suppose the US did have foreknowledge from some source.  What could they do to prevent what happened?  Tell Georgian peacekeepers to not respond?  According to Oleg Panfilov, the shelling from the Russian-supported Ossetian separatists went on for 10 days before the Georgians responded. 

If Russia was planning to use any response from Georgia as a pretext, they were going to see to it that they got that response so they could claim they were only protecting themselves or their passport holders.

I may be slow on the uptake sometimes but I have put a lot of thought into this.  I've read reports and opinions from all sides - I focused on reports written or taped over the last year.  As I put the pieces together the picture is very clear - Russia moved troops and materiel well ahead of the outbreak.  Putin used the Ossetian separatists as pawns, letting them and the Georgian peacekeepers strike the match while Russia waited with a full can of gasoline ready to pour.   

I'm very sorry BC if my thinking doesn't measure up. 

BTW, the Mexican Army comes into US territory on a near daily basis as a means of restraining and distracting the US Border Patrol long enough to let their partners move drugs and people north. 

If the USA invaded Mexico using this as a pretext, would you apply consistent standards?  Would you defend America's right to protect it's citizens and to respond disproportionately.  I'd bet you would change your arguments 180 degrees in order to be true to your anti-USA agenda.  We would agree the US would be wrong in that case, who do we not agree Russia is wrong now? 

[diverboy70]

Yes, I think that could be said about most the Soviet Union as many of the land/countries/territories had little say.

Diverboy I am not so familiar with Finnish history. What about Finland?  Has Russia ever taken any of the territories of Finland and still occupy that land today?

Yes we lost some part of our country during the second world war, and they still have it. But it was fair and sqaure, we lost the war to them, even if we did our best. My grandparents had a very negative attitude towards Russia their whole life and I still feel that my mother have some problems with me having a Russian girlfriend. For me it is history. Finland has allways had a very special relationship towards Russia and many times we were really close to become a part of the SU.

So you see I don't really have any traditional reasons to stand by Russia. I do it because I see the reasons why they did this and maybe also because I have my girlfriend in Russia, who is very patriotic. But most of all I think that a regress to the cold war is bad for everyone and that is why a swift political and diplomatical sollution should be in the interest of everybody!

[Ronnie]

Yes we lost some part of our country during the second world war, and they still have it. But it was fair and sqaure, we lost the war to them, even if we did our best. My grandparents had a very negative attitude towards Russia their whole life and I still feel that my mother have some problems with me having a Russian girlfriend. For me it is history. Finland has allways had a very special relationship towards Russia and many times we were really close to become a part of the SU.

So you see I don't really have any traditional reasons to stand by Russia. I do it because I see the reasons why they did this and maybe also because I have my girlfriend in Russia, who is very patriotic. But most of all I think that a regress to the cold war is bad for everyone and that is why a swift political and diplomatical sollution should be in the interest of everybody!

That's why I like you so much Diverboy.. Unlike BC or Steviej who have taken a similar position to yours....you're not affected so much by USSR history vis-a-vis her neighbors and you have your heart in the right place.  I do think it is wrong to sell out your wonderful grandparents to please a new girlfriend.  She might respect you more if you defend your grandparents and your family's history.    If she can't do that, she's not worth your attention IMHO.

[BC]

I may be slow on the uptake sometimes but I have put a lot of thought into this.  I've read reports and opinions from all sides - I focused on reports written or taped over the last year.  As I put the pieces together the picture is very clear - Russia moved troops and materiel well ahead of the outbreak.  Putin used the Ossetian separatists as pawns, letting them and the Georgian peacekeepers strike the match while Russia waited with a full can of gasoline ready to pour.   

I'm very sorry BC if my thinking doesn't measure up. 

Ronnie,

Again no need to apologize.. I find this discourse quite interesting and valid, both sides.

We do however seem to be loosing some perspective, sort of dancing around each other testing limits.

I'll be heading to bed now but will leave you with one thought:

Regardless of the motives, or past (that no one can change), where are we headed and what can be done to balance things out?.  The world over the last couple of decades has begun to swing in ever greater circles.. I hope we do not find ourselves relishing the relative peace we had during the cold war.

Poland now accepting ABM missiles for which Iran may be able to develop in 5 or 10 years? Comeon who is kidding who.  The US is selling their warez.. had to sweeten the deal a bit for Poland who saw a little 'window of opportunity' to make a few extra bucks off of this crisis.  Do you know that the average US base overseas brings millions of dollars into the economy each month? A symbolic gesture they say.. yeah right.. put up or shut up more likely in light of the inability of the US to control either side of this crisis.

The Romans realized that in order to keep the peace, a little blood and gore had to be thrown in to quench thirst, up to 10,000 gladiators/slaves and other assorted beasts in a single day... Are we looking at a modern day amphitheater?  After all, what's a few thousand lives lost in such sport when 7 million or so will starve this year.  You mentioned 'proportional' a few pages back..

enuf for today folks.. outa here.

[wxman]

Please tell me you are kidding !! wxman, you have my full support as an individual to go over to Georgia and fight, and get your legs blown off or killed, to defend them because you think its "right". Also, you have my full permission to liquidate your total personal net worth, and donate it to Georgia for recovery. God speed in your adventure.

What i said earlier:

Running tail between the legs and locking our doors doesn't solve any problem. If the US were to do what you suggest, do you think that some other superpower would not move in where we ran from? Like you said, Russia is now doing what the US is doing. IS that more acceptable? Apparently so, because you feel what the US is doing is wrong, and it's completely acceptable in your eyes to have Russia do that instead. 2 wrongs do not make a right. But in some eyes the wrong is ok, as long as it's Russia doing it.



Time out there dude! Where did you come up with the idea that I think we should be over there fighting?  Wow, you really need to read my post over again! I was trying to make an analogy that if its good for the goose, it's good for the gander. That is, if the US doing it's invading and meddling in other countries affairs is wrong, then it should also be wrong for Russia. You obviously know how to spin something completely around to say something else. Wow, talk about propaganda.  Notice that I said 2 wrongs do not make a right. 1 it is wrong for the US, and 2 it is wrong for Russia. Putting the tail between the legs and running is not about having a military presence, but to have a presence in world affairs. Diplomacy goes along way. To abandon our neighbors and allies and just close our doors to the world is wrong and foolish.

[wxman]

Ronnie,

Again no need to apologize.. I find this discourse quite interesting and valid, both sides.

We do however seem to be loosing some perspective, sort of dancing around each other testing limits.

I'll be heading to bed now but will leave you with one thought:

Regardless of the motives, or past (that no one can change), where are we headed and what can be done to balance things out?.  The world over the last couple of decades has begun to swing in ever greater circles.. I hope we do not find ourselves relishing the relative peace we had during the cold war.

Poland now accepting ABM missiles for which Iran may be able to develop in 5 or 10 years? Comeon who is kidding who.  The US is selling their warez.. had to sweeten the deal a bit for Poland who saw a little 'window of opportunity' to make a few extra bucks off of this crisis.  Do you know that the average US base overseas brings millions of dollars into the economy each month? A symbolic gesture they say.. yeah right.. put up or shut up more likely in light of the inability of the US to control either side of this crisis.

The Romans realized that in order to keep the peace, a little blood and gore had to be thrown in to quench thirst, up to 10,000 gladiators/slaves and other assorted beasts in a single day... Are we looking at a modern day amphitheater?  After all, what's a few thousand lives lost in such sport when 7 million or so will starve this year.  You mentioned 'proportional' a few pages back..

enuf for today folks.. outa here.

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.  "If you want peace prepare for war"

[Ronnie]

This is a slight detour from the thread but Diverboy is a Finn and had a grandfather who was recognized as a hero by his government for his efforts in the conflicts with the Soviet Union.

What is remarkable about the Finnish Army is that with just 250,000 men, they successfully defended their small country against a very aggressive, but misled million-man army.  In the winter war, 1939-1940 the Finns lost 66,000 men, killed wounded or captured. 

By contrast, the USSR suffered 127,000 killed or missing, 265,000 wounded and 5,600 captured. USSR also lost 2,200 tanks..one third of her tank force.  All this happened in just 100 days!  The Soviets' performance in the Winter war with Finland convinced Hitler to invade the USSR sooner rather than later.

During the "continuation war" Finland actually found themselve on the same side as Germany and actually initiated the conflict in an effort to retake the territory given up in the Winter war.

This time, the numbers of killed and wounded again greatly "favored" Finland by about a 3-to-1 margin.  Favored is in quotes because Finland could tolerate another 60,000 dead, and this time, partisans inside Finland (including Yuri Andropov), were slaughtering women and children.



Finland didn't win, but didn't lose her sovereignty either as did all the other countries bordering Russia.  All in all, Finland speaks softly but has been shown to carry a big stick.

[Ranetka]

Doesn't your statement also present a double standard?

I think if one country (Georgia) could sucsessfully and peacefully leave the Soviet Union tnan another country (South Ossetia) should be allowed sucsessfully and peacefully leave Georgia. Just to remind you, SO had a referendum twice and their people expressed their desire to gain independence from Georgia.

With regard to "giving away" Russian passport, that's the law, any sitizen of former Soivet Union could have a Russian passport providing they qualified the requirments. Some of my friend are from different Soviet republics, they have chosen Russian sitizenship.

[Ronnie]

Hi Ranetka.

Are your friends in the other republics of Russian ethnicity?  The Ossetians are not.  I know you are aware but I just wanted to point that out in case someone think those are Russians living in Ossetia.  I will point out that there are also many Russians living in Georgia.  Bombs don't ask to see passports before they land.

[SANDRO43]

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. "If you want peace prepare for war"

Almost, but not quite: it's Si vis pacem, para bellum, an old Latin adage, while Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum was written much later (circa 390 AD) by Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus in his Epitoma Rei Militaris (also referred to as De Re Militari, the only ancient manual of Roman military institutions to have survived intact), and means literally: "Often who desires peace, prepares for war" .

Vegetius also wrote Digesta Artis Mulomedicinae, a guide to veterinary medicine fallen into oblivion along with Army mules .

[Ranetka]

Hi Ranetka.

Are your friends in the other republics of Russian ethnicity?  The Ossetians are not.  I know you are aware but I just wanted to point that out in case someone think those are Russians living in Ossetia.  I will point out that there are also many Russians living in Georgia.  Bombs don't ask to see passports before they land.

You are right here Ronnie. I will try to find out how many ethnic Georgians both Russian and Georgian nationality living in Russia. I am pretty sure there are 200 000 only in Moscow.

Answer your question some are ethnic Russians. Others are Azerbigani, Kazach, Greek from Ukraine, Tatar and a couple of Uzbecs... When we entered the University we were all from the same country, when we graduated some of my friends had to chose what country they wanted to stay in.

[Ronnie]

I think if one country (Georgia) could sucsessfully and peacefully leave the Soviet Union tnan another country (South Ossetia) should be allowed sucsessfully and peacefully leave Georgia. Just to remind you, SO had a referendum twice and their people expressed their desire to gain independence from Georgia.

And if one country (Russia) can prevent one of it's territories (Chechnya) from seceding, then does it not follow that Georgia can prevent Ossetia from seceding?

In the United States, secession is against our constitution regardless of what the citizens of that state may want.  The principle behind this is to prevent world chaos and civil wars.  The US has had states secede and war resulted.  Canada has long had problems with separatist movements in Quebec.  Ireland has had their troubles too. And I don't want to forget Italy's Lega Nord movement.

I agree with you though.  The right of self-determination is basic.  I think that many of the world's problems could be resolved if boundary lines and governments could be redrawn without conflict and in accordance with a protocol.  But that, I realize, is not the way the world works.

[SANDRO43]

In the United States, secession is against our constitution regardless of what the citizens of that state may want.  The principle behind this is to prevent world chaos and civil wars.  The US has had states secede and war resulted.

The Republic of Texas was a sovereign nation in North America between the United States and Mexico that existed from 1836 to 1845. Formed as a break-away republic from Mexico by the Texas Revolution, the nation claimed borders that encompassed an area that included all of the present U.S. state of Texas, as well as parts of present-day New Mexico, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and Wyoming based upon the Treaties of Velasco between the newly created Texas republic and Mexico. The eastern boundary with the United States was defined by the Adams-Onís Treaty between the United States and Spain, in 1819. Its southern and western-most boundary with Mexico was under dispute throughout the existence of the Republic, with Texas claiming that the boundary was the Rio Grande, and Mexico claiming the Nueces River as the boundary. This dispute would later become a trigger for the Mexican–American War, after the annexation of Texas.

On October 13, 1845 a large majority of voters in the Republic approved both the American offer and the proposed constitution that specifically endorsed slavery and the slave trade. This constitution was later accepted by the U.S. Congress, making Texas a U.S. state on the same day annexation took effect, December 29, 1845 (therefore bypassing a territorial phase). One of the motivations for annexation (besides the primary one of desiring to be united with their perceived Anglo-American ethno-cultural brethren of the United States and their Anglo-American brethren of "the South" regional-cultural) was that the Texas government had incurred huge debts which the United States agreed to assume upon annexation. In 1852, in return for this assumption of debt, a large portion of Texas-claimed territory, now parts of Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Wyoming, was ceded to the Federal government.

The annexation resolution has been the topic of some incorrect historical beliefs—one that remains is that the resolution granted Texas the explicit right to secede from the Union. This was a right argued by some to be implicitly held by all states at the time, up until the conclusion of the Civil War. The resolution did include two unique provisions: first, it said that up to four additional states could be created from Texas' territory, with the consent of the State of Texas. The resolution did not include any special exceptions to the provisions of the US Constitution regarding statehood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas

IIRC, some Texans here maintained that Texas does have the right to secede, if so inclined.

[Ranetka]

And if one country (Russia) can prevent one of it's territories (Chechnya) from seceding, then does it not follow that Georgia can prevent Ossetia from seceding?

I guess it does. At the same time I never heard of ossetians carring on terrorist activity in Georgia. This is the difference I think. May be I just do not know.

Plus Ossetia is in two parts, Nothern is in Russia, Southern is in Georgia. The same people, they want to unite. Northern Caucasus was always a conflict area, goes back to hundreds of years, I think there mush be other reasons to it, apart from evil Russian mentality you seemed to give as a reason.

[Ronnie]

I guess it does. At the same time I never heard of ossetians carring on terrorist activity in Georgia. This is the difference I think. May be I just do not know.

Plus Ossetia is in two parts, Nothern is in Russia, Southern is in Georgia. The same people, they want to unite. Northern Caucasus was always a conflict area, goes back to hundreds of years, I think there mush be other reasons to it, apart from evil Russian mentality you seemed to give as a reason.

Ossetians are not Muslim and have been given self rule by Georgia just as Crimea has in Ukraine.   Ossetia is in Georgia, Crimea is in Ukraine.   The problem is this tribe mentality.  That mentality is from the middle ages and before. 

[UTRO]

This is a slight detour from the thread but Diverboy is a Finn and had a grandfather who was recognized as a hero by his government for his efforts in the conflicts with the Soviet Union.

What is remarkable about the Finnish Army is that with just 250,000 men, they successfully defended their small country against a very aggressive, but misled million-man army.  In the winter war, 1939-1940 the Finns lost 66,000 men, killed wounded or captured. 

By contrast, the USSR suffered 127,000 killed or missing, 265,000 wounded and 5,600 captured. USSR also lost 2,200 tanks..one third of her tank force.  All this happened in just 100 days!  The Soviets' performance in the Winter war with Finland convinced Hitler to invade the USSR sooner rather than later.

During the "continuation war" Finland actually found themselve on the same side as Germany and actually initiated the conflict in an effort to retake the territory given up in the Winter war.

This time, the numbers of killed and wounded again greatly "favored" Finland by about a 3-to-1 margin.  Favored is in quotes because Finland could tolerate another 60,000 dead, and this time, partisans inside Finland (including Yuri Andropov), were slaughtering women and children.



Finland didn't win, but didn't lose her sovereignty either as did all the other countries bordering Russia.  All in all, Finland speaks softly but has been shown to carry a big stick.

Thank God for Wikipedia, eh Ronnie? Makes us all World Experts!!

[UTRO]

A small observation.....  For the past few years Russia has been Economically buoyed drunk by the Economics of Oil. It has given Russia a sense of security, superiority and prosperity. In fact their Military is very weak, just as it was in the 90's. Honestly, if the West stupidly chose to teach the Russians a Lesson there would be nothing to stop them..... ah, except for a few Nukes, eh!?!

[Ronnie]

Thank God for Wikipedia, eh Ronnie? Makes us all World Experts!!

Yep, or we could just shoot from the hip, eh Utrobina? 

I'll be sure to send your regrets to our resident wikimaniacs Sandro and OlgaH.    I love 'em for it BTW. 

[Ranetka]

Ossetians are not Muslim

What has this to do with anything? Sorry, I am missing your point here. Are you saying muslim=terrorist?
for your info, Islam is the second largest religion in Russia, tatars (muslim) I think the second biggest ethnicity, no problems with that. Georgians are orthodox, the same as Russians. These conflicts have nothing to do with religion whatsoever. 

[UTRO]

Well Ronnie.... I'm not happy with Russia's obvious Invasion into Georgia proper...... and I'm sure that a much
 of your negative reaction has to do a lot with your wonderful Lady being from Ukraine.

[Ronnie]

What has this to do with anything? Sorry, I am missing your point here. Are you saying muslim=terrorist?
for your info, Islam is the second largest religion in Russia, tatars (muslim) I think the second biggest ethnicity, no problems with that. Georgians are orthodox, the same as Russians. These conflicts have nothing to do with religion whatsoever. 

You're right.  The conflict in Georgia have nothing to do with religion.  You mentioned Chechen terrorism and why is there no terrorism associated with the Ossetians.  I answered that they are not Muslim.  While being Muslim doesn't make one a terrorist, there are very few terrorists these days who do not claim to be Muslim.  How did we stray so far off point?

[Ronnie]

Well Ronnie.... I'm not happy with Russia's obvious Invasion into Georgia proper...... and I'm sure that a much
 of your negative reaction has to do a lot with your wonderful Lady being from Ukraine.

You'd be way off if you think that.  Way off. 

I like the people of the FSU.  I see them as our poor cousins who have been woefully mistreated over many years by brutal dictators.  I don't like it when the Kremlin misbehaves because of the detrimental affect it has of Russians everywhere and most people don't distinguish between Ukrainians and Russians as you know (except perhaps in the Canadian plains).  Nearly all my wife's friends are wonderful Russian ladies. 

I would love to see Russia be respected in the world, but unfortunately they can't be because of it's thuggish leaders.
Again, why would anyone make excuses for KGB men doing what KGB men have always done?